DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Xavier_Onassis on August 22, 2015, 03:55:13 PM

Title: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 22, 2015, 03:55:13 PM: In the coming months, Republican lawmakers will be fighting tooth and nail against the agenda President Obama laid out during Tuesday's inaugural address: his call to action on equality, immigration reform, reducing gun violence, protecting social programs, addressing climate change and more.

And Republican Rep. Justin Amash of Michigan neatly explains why the upcoming fights might be a problem for the GOP:

The public is not behind us, and that’s a real problem for our party.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Plane on August 22, 2015, 06:09:55 PM: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/23/1181367/-A-Republican-explains-what-s-wrong-with-the-Republican-party-in-just-14-words

Quote

The public is not behind us, and that’s a real problem for our party.

It could be I suppose, were it true.

But President Obama has worn down his dependable voting block, and hardened his opposition , a process of polarization that has been tougher on his own than his critics.

For example , if everyone that benefits from "Obamacare" votes Democratic , and everyone who pays extra because of it votes Republican the Dems would never win another dogcatcher.

Americans are prone to vote for what they think is in their own best interest , and for what they think is in the best interest of the general welfare . This is the theory at least that leads one to think that the more Americans know and truly understand , the more they will choose well their leadership and support eagerly the best programs.

On the other hand there is the theory that Americans are hopelessly ignorant and are best led contrary to their wants by trickery.

The prevalence of that second theory in the Democratic party is one of the main reasons that I generally do not like them.

Quote
.... gives me some perspective on the two key questions his statements have raised. Do Gruber’s comments about the “stupidity of the American voter” reflect the thinking that went into the Affordable Care Act? Do Gruber’s comments about lack of “transparency” and “contorted” policy construction validate long-held conservative beliefs that Obamacare is illegitimate—that its architects defied the conventions of politics and promoted the law based on false pretenses?
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120311/jonathan-gruber-and-obamacare-what-his-quotes-really-tell-us
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 22, 2015, 09:03:15 PM: The Republican Party favors mostly only the very wealthy, but they nod to the forced birthers and the immigrant haters, and all that is left of the Old South racists, of which there are still quite a few.

And the GOP is even trickier than the Democrats. They use trickery to monger wars and to win elections.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Plane on August 22, 2015, 11:12:23 PM: That is true , working for President Obama, raises have been scarce and minimal.

I suppose that is because the Democrats are for the poor , so they will ensure their voters by having plenty of poor.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: sirs on August 23, 2015, 03:44:45 AM: When you consider that "the Public" has NEVER supported Obamacare, while it has supported bans on partial birth abortion, a southern wall on our border, among a whole host of other things that left finds cringe-worthy, pulling out one Republican to highlight just why Trump is doing so well in the polls, doesn't quite accomplish what I think the professor was trying to convey

Not to mention the Democrats, by far, have more rich donors to their party, than the GOP. The notion that the GOP is the party of the rich is such a grotesque mutation of what they really are for.....which is the notion that EVERYONE has the opportunity to succeed....if Government would simply stop getting in the way. Notice its not a right to succeed.....or have a job....or be wealthy. The only right is be allowed the opportunity. And for some that opportunity is easier than for others. But that's life, and Government has no business trying to pick winners & losers, and absolutely should not be in the business of trying to make everyone equally miserable, with their few 1%, delegating themselves as not subject to what everyone else is mandated to
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 23, 2015, 07:12:09 AM: Trump does not appeal to any sort of majority of Americans, and he never will.
25% of a minority party is not very impressive.
And there are a multitude of skeletons in Trump's closet.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: sirs on August 23, 2015, 03:11:56 PM: The reason Trump is polling so well is that as bodacious as he comes across, he's the Anti-politician's politician. He's not co-towing to the GOP leadership or to the Political establishment. Too long have politicians campaigned on what they'd do, get the support of those people who believed them, only to watch them fall right in line with DC SOP, once elected.

The GOP slaughtered the Democrats in the last last election, and in 2010, due directly on just how bad Obama and the Dems were trying to take this country, and both times the subsequent newly elected dropped all efforts to push on what they campaigned on. Trump, with whatever excesses he brings, isn't going to be one of those. That's why he continues to poll so high, despite all the pundits who said he'd flame out. He's not my 1st choice, but I grasp why he's the choice of so many others, who are fed up with politics as usual in DC, topped by your gal, Clinton

And like I said, the PUBLIC IS NOT BEHIND Obamacare, or Abortion on Demand, or Clinton's trustworthiness, or the recent Iran "deal", or not constructing the Keystone pipeline, or not building a wall on our southern border. So, I'm not sure you want to go there, as it relates to what the public is and isn't behind
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 23, 2015, 07:35:33 PM: Your opinion of President Obama's popularity has nothing at all to do with Trump's getting 25% favorable rating among Republican'ts.

If you change the subject, you do not make sense.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: sirs on August 23, 2015, 07:57:25 PM: It's funny how you keep using the 25%, as if he was the ONLY person out there running, when that % is split over a DOZEN candidates, so its ludicrous to try and apply that #, while ignoring the VAST majority of the public that is not behind so many of your leftist causes & candidates. The public is not behind much of the current political nonsense, so trying to make it solely about the GOP is intellectually disingenuous
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 24, 2015, 11:44:08 AM: rump is pretty much the only person that has announce any policy. He has an immigration policy and it is unworkable, unconstitutional in several aspects and it sucks and has no hope whatever of being implemented, with or without Trump/
The rest of the Republican't zoo has not announced one damned thing about specifically what they would do in the off chance that the public would be stupid enough to elect one of them.

As it says in the Bible: Minnie, Minnie, tickle a Parson. They have been judged and found wanting.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: sirs on August 24, 2015, 12:37:06 PM: More projection.......I'm impressed
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 24, 2015, 03:11:32 PM: It is true. Not one of the Republican'ts has announced any specific policy on anything. All they have done is badmouth Obama.
Except Trump, who has a perfectly awful unworkable policy on immigration, that sucks giant donkeyhonks.

That is not any projection, that is reality.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: sirs on August 24, 2015, 03:21:24 PM: NO ONE is producing any specific policy proposals, outside of inferrences. Not Sanders (outside of of some vague anti-corporate references), not Clinton (outside of some vague free tuition references), nor O'Mally, nor anyone. It's largely too soon for such. And all they have done is badmouth the GOP.

Your projection is to insist that what's happening with the entire current political process is soley GOP
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 24, 2015, 06:44:39 PM: Sanders has rather a lot of policies: free college tuition, paid for by a tax on Wall Street, raising the minimum wage.
Here is his platform: he has spent a lot more time on this than Trump, obviously.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/agenda/ (http://www.sanders.senate.gov/agenda/)
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: sirs on August 24, 2015, 06:57:33 PM: Those are just general Democrat platforms, minus the intimate details on how any of it is paid for, no different than most of the general GOP platforms
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 24, 2015, 07:05:34 PM: Obviously you did not read what Bernie has posted.

Seems pretty specific to me.

I disagree with the "smaller government" and "lower taxes for the fatcats" policies of the Republican'ts, as well as their reputation to monger wars and ignore the homeless, the poor, the maldistribution of wealth and their hateful attitude toward my President. I can't think of anything to like about them, other than when the lose, they generally vacate the office for a better Democrat to replace them.

So =far, no Republican't has ever shrunk the government. They have made it less competent, though.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: sirs on August 24, 2015, 07:40:06 PM: And obviously you have not read any of the other Republican Presidential nominees, and what they have posted in the past. They seem pretty specific to me

I disagree with the "bigger government" and "higher taxes", on everyone policies of the Demawon'ts, and their reputation of polarization, intolerance, enabling, stoking of racist rhetoric, and their hateful attitudes toward anyone financially successful and my previous Republican Presidents. I can't think of anything to like about them, other than when the lose, they generally vacate the office for a better Republican to replace them.

Same 'ol, same'ol
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 25, 2015, 11:09:38 AM: I am not for bigger or smaller government, but more effective government. The Bureau of Land Management does not need more people to enforce rental fees on government land or prevention of overgrazing: they just need to prosecute violators, like that racist clown in Nevada. The Forestry Service needs to prevent clear cutting national forests. The military needs to settle for fighter aircraft that do not cost $35 million each.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: sirs on August 25, 2015, 11:16:13 AM: Of course you're for bigger Government.....you push that rhetoric all the time. The Bigger the better, since it supposedly can handle all those evil big companies better. You've been educated on how the bigger Government gets, the more ineffective, inefficient, the more bureaucratic it becomes, and the easier crony capitalism gets. But you don't care.....the bigger the better, so says the the hard left
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 25, 2015, 12:40:23 PM: Government has the role of protecting the people from corporate greed and abuse, so it must be more powerful than the largest abusive corporation. Not necessarily bigger.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: sirs on August 25, 2015, 01:24:23 PM: Actually, that's NOT the role of the Government.

Government's role is simple....provide its citizens protection from enemies, foreign & domestic.... PROMOTE, as in facilitate, NOT "provide" for the common welfare of its citizens, and at all cost, protect the liberty/freedoms we have as a nation, that so many have sacrificed themselves for, to secure those freedoms

But thank you for pointing out again the mindset of bigger is better, when it comes to the left, completely ignoring how much easier it allows the powerful corporate folk/oligarchy to be that much more in charge of the policitians that they've bought and paid for......led by herr magesty, Mrs Clinton
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 25, 2015, 02:28:56 PM: It is precisely what I want the role of government to be.
I want the FAA to make sure planes I fly on are safe
I want the FDA to make sure the drugs and food I eat are safe.
I want the water that comes out of my faucets to be drinkable.
I want my bank account insured by the FDIC.
I want stock trading regulated to me protected from scams.

There ars a few of the things I expect from the government.

I do not give a shit about all the crap that "Conservatives" spew. They cannot run a country, and have proven it.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: sirs on August 25, 2015, 02:56:43 PM: Actually, it's been proven multiple times over....not that you'd notice of course
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 25, 2015, 03:46:44 PM: Reagan promised to shrink the government and it grew and became more corrupt: dozens of his minions were prosecuted.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: sirs on August 25, 2015, 05:02:49 PM: Shall I provide you a laundry list of all the "Promises" Obama has made, as it relates to what he campaigned on?? And I've lost count as to how many have been found to have reniged on tax laws, under Obama, that he personally picked. It's also a safe bet that so much of what the State Dept & IRS deleted, e-mail wise, before being handed over to Congress would have sent many a minions up the river as well
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Plane on August 25, 2015, 07:25:57 PM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on August 25, 2015, 11:09:38 AM
The military needs to settle for fighter aircraft that do not cost $35 million each.

Nooo....

If the government made cost the only consideration , they could mount rocket launchers on Cessna 172s , the latest aircraft to successfully defeat the Soviet Unions air defenses.

Or they could measure the opposition and pay what it takes to surpass.

The Russians still build some very good aircraft , the Chinese and Indians and Europeans build some good ones too.

So we have to be competitive, the choice is really between building aircraft that can win by being better , or building aircraft that can win by being very numerous.

Really you should be happy that the decision has fallen on having excellent aircraft rather than having thousands of them.

On the other hand , there is at least one genius who thinks that the Air Force could use a cheaper fighter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burt_Rutan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG9LlHcX8lg
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 25, 2015, 09:49:30 PM: If they are paying 35 million per plane, then cost seems to be of no consideration at all.

They could surely do a pretty good job for a measly 10 million.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Plane on August 26, 2015, 05:23:34 AM: If you went with Burt Rutan's design the slower more vulnerable less effective aircraft would not return its pilot alive and successful as often.

What is that worth?

Of course this plane is meant to be sent in swarms , so even though each one costs a lot less, the need is for a flight of 200 rather than 20.

You still get what you pay for.

Long ago our military decided that it was better to spend more money than bury more soldiers .

Better equipment is better than meeting an enemy on an even footing , hopefully we have enough obvious superiority that no fighting will be necessary.

Not with peers anyway, terrorists look for leverage.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 26, 2015, 10:01:00 AM: There is no need to pay as much as the military asks for.
Often Congress authorizes crap even the generals and admirals say they do not need.

Expensive crap is ordered to support the military-industrial complex. Eisenhower knew this, and littl was done to stop it.

I have no idea who Burt Rutan was. I just know that 35 million per plane is absurd.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Plane on August 27, 2015, 05:09:41 AM: Oh you would like Burt Rutan , everyone likes Burt Rutan.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Plane on August 27, 2015, 07:16:25 PM: Brazil is a smaller government, and has a recent history of being quite effective, efficient and improved over their own history.

They had a good selection of aircraft offered to them and they did due diligence for a long enough time to make a good choice.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/brazil-embarking-upon-f-x2-fighter-program-04179/

Quote
December 2013, Brazil came to the conclusion that Sweden’s JAS-39E/F Gripen was their best choice. A contract for 36 aircraft was signed in October 2014, and Brazil’s air force (FAB) has confirmed that their eventual goal is 108 fighters in 3 tranches. Another 24 aircraft could end up serving in Brazil’s navy, as carrier-borne fighters.......

....a high-performance fighter whose price and operating costs are both low. Gripen is likely to be Brazil’s cheapest option over its service life; ..................

The competition under consideration,
Quote
Boeing’s F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet, Dassault’s Rafale, EADS’ Eurofighter, Lockheed Martin’s F-16 Block 60, Saab’s JAS-39 Gripen NG, and Sukhoi’s SU-35.

The FAB was also said to be interested in the Lockheed-Martin F-35, but .....

The counting of the cost
Quote
The JAS-39NG reportedly ranked 1st in the FAB’s technical trials, had strong support from Brazilian aerospace firms, and offered a complete package worth about $6 billion (about 10 billion Reals),...
.....paid off in a 36-plane order that secured the Griipen NG’s future..
$ 6,000,000,000/36=$166,666,666 each.

These are of course, quite rough numbers.

But I think it illustrates that the kind of aircraft one might buy with ten million each , would not be in the league that it would need to be.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 27, 2015, 09:04:49 PM: Brazil has not fought a war against anyone since 1871. They were officially allies in WWII, but did little fighting.

Brazil needs military aircraft mostly for ornamental purposes. It has no enemies. It has no serious boundary disputes. It produces nearly everything it needs. The big problem is now and has always been that the Brazilian economy fluctuates severely with the price of commodities, currently sugar, soybeans and coffee

Brazil has far more corruption in its government than the US, but it is true that they have improved greatly since the right wing and the military are no longer running the country. Currently they are experiencing an economic slump, and the president is quite unpopular.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Plane on August 28, 2015, 04:49:35 AM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on August 27, 2015, 09:04:49 PM
Brazil has not fought a war against anyone since 1871. They were officially allies in WWII, but did little fighting.

Brazil needs military aircraft mostly for ornamental purposes.

I am pointing out that even with a smaller need , there is no good buy at ten million each.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 28, 2015, 09:32:32 AM: Again, Brazil has no real need of any high tech air force. It might need some drones and light aircraft to patrol the borders for smuggling, but most smuggling routes go through Ciudad del Este at Iguazú.

One $35 million dollar aircraft crashes and there goes money that could educate hundreds. I bet they are planning to use these super expensive things for Blue Angels and other flying circus promotions, where they will be defending no one from anything.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Plane on August 29, 2015, 05:48:07 PM: Aren't they neighbors with Argentina?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Argentine_Air_Force
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 29, 2015, 08:06:46 PM: Brazil has not fought Argentina since the 1840's, when they decided to stop fighting and allow Uruguay to be a buffer state.

Brazil and Argentina have usually had pretty cordial relations. Occasionally Chile and Argentina have minor spats, but never a war.

South Americasn have not fought each other since the Chaco War between Bolivia and Paraguay in the late 30's. There was the Falklands War with the UK, started by the Dictator Videla to stay in power, who was de4ated by the UK, so Thatcher could stay in power. Videla was thrown out as a result. In 2003, Falklands veterans were still haunting provincial capital buildings in Corrientes.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Plane on August 29, 2015, 08:35:50 PM: Robert Frost thinks that good fences make good neighbors.

Is it a good idea to have prepared a realistic defense?

Should Cuba, for example, keep the resources ready to repel invaders?
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 30, 2015, 03:08:06 PM: Good fences in New England and borders between countries are not the same thing at all. This is a very poor analogy.
Read the poem and you will understand what he was talking about and how it does not apply to countries.

Cuba does have an army and a navy, and it has repelled invaders with them during the Bay of Pigs fiasco.
Title: Re: A Republican describes in only14 words what is wrong with his Party
Post by: Plane on August 30, 2015, 05:06:48 PM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on August 30, 2015, 03:08:06 PM

Cuba does have an army and a navy, and it has repelled invaders with them during the Bay of Pigs fiasco.

Yes , what a dumb thing to do.