DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: kimba1 on August 29, 2015, 01:13:47 PM
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this is not a talk about illegal immigration . The focus is the legal ones here. I notice our status as citizens are in question.
Even the 14th amendment is getting alot of attention. The fact I actually got number without looking it up is proof how much it is brought up
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Let me make this clear, Kimba. NO ONE HERE LEGALLY IS IN QUESTION. NO ONE LEGALLY HERE, IS IN RISK OF LOSING THEIR CITIZESNSHIP....PERIOD
This has everything to do with ILLEGAL Immigration/Foreigners. Always has been. Anyone trying to sell you the above is off their rocker and/or trying to purposely create conflict, where there should be none
The 14th was specific to the children of freed slaves, and nothing to do with immigration. In a subsequent ruling, addressed the children of LEGAL Foreigners as apparently applicable. And it is consistent with the wording of the 14th.
Your status as a citizen, so long as you're here legally, is, and never has been in question....period. I hope that helps dispell your personal concerns
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Im not too worried about my status per se but i do have friends who actually got on dhs watchlist and it does give me doubt in general about the legal immigrants status.
Recently it seems the shfit of focus of immigration is leaning toward asians. We'll see in a week if that sticks though
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Not sure about where you're getting this "focus" information from. Race has never been the issue...legal status has been. ANYONE here legally, is not at risk for having their citizenship revoked...period
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I did not think about revoked at all. Im thinking about getting deported. My friends were facing a real possibility of deportation due to errors in documenting.
This is more of a matter is the government compitent to keep track of whose legal or not.
It did make my other friends scared to reapply for passports and thier born here. I know one guy who has no birth certificate because he's born in the woods past Sacramento and the people thier are kinda jewish gypsies. Not sure if he finally registered
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The more i think about it the word revoked has not really been brought up. This has mainly a swear campaign on certain groups which seems not too define whom
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Im not following Kimba.....it appears this continues to be an issue about illegal vs legal, as well as apparent issues with the hazards of Government bureacracy.......meaning, nothing you're concerned about has anything to do with the notion that some Government bureaucrat is signaling any intention to take away someone's legal status as an American citizen, which would be referred to as revoked......not to mention its regardless of race
Lesson learned, make sure you provide accurate paperwork, and make note to self, that the bigger Government gets, the more likely paperwork like this can get mishandled
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Race used to be a big deal in questions of immigration.
I certainly hope it is not now.
Our system of immigration is very flawed , some of these flaws are really killing people,
But who do we trust to fix this?
Can we find politicians whose motives will not be primarily political?
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You are so right, Plane. I think we can ALL agree our current immigration system is broken. We enable too much illegal crossing into this country, with all kinds of perks & rewards if they get here, topped by the gross misuse/misapplication of our 14th Amendment. And don't get me started with the gross ignorance of the law with sanctuary cities
Back when we passed the 14th, we had open borders & open immigration. But something changed in this country....that being the emergence of the welfare state, where Government via the tax payers, are compelled to provide more and more of one's basic functions & services, because it apparently makes certain folks feel better about themselves. Such a strain on our legal tax payers is simply unsustainable with an open border/open immigration mindset
So, the Dems have a choice.....they can have open borders or they can have a welfare state. They can't have both
We need to stop and fix everything that's broken, which includes speeding up the immigration process. It's ridiculous that it takes years to be processed. But the FIRST thing that needs to be demonstrated, is a WILL to seriously fix the system. It starts with border enforcement. Be it a wall, the military, a massive increase in armed border agents, something along those lines. Once we have SOME control of the border (not all....many will still sneak thru), which demonstrates a bipartisan will to want to fix our immigration system, then we start dealing with weaning the bureaucracy, to something far more managable
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Sometimes the paperwork is flawed. I actually know somebody with a expired and mispelled birth certificate. California used to give birth certificate cards in place of the ones we know. But in recent years those cards became invalid. That was a shock to my friend who tried to apply for a passport and find out he's been spelling his name wrong his whole life. Goid thing this is not exactly rare in California so he didn't go through to big a hardship to get his passport. He now thinking amending his original birth certificate since it'll be a big headache to change everything else.
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We do NOT have "open borders" now. Many fewer people are coming in illegal than during the Bush years.
It is just that no wall nor any type of regulations and vigilance will ever be 100% effective. The East Germans never managed, and they shot on sight.
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On the matter of paper work . it sound easy to say just provide accurate paperwork. But got serious doubts most americans can do it and most will not likely need to.
In certain jobs your not even allowed to carry id since it's used as a deposit for work.
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Many fewer people are coming in illegal than during the Bush years.
Less Mexicans, exponentially more of everyone else, especially central Americans. And you must have missed the rather clear reference that a wall was not going to be 100% effective, nor would we expect it to be. It would prove a significant improvement in border security however, over what is currently present. ... as in virtually nothing.
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On the matter of paper work . it sound easy to say just provide accurate paperwork. But got serious doubts most americans can do it and most will not likely need to.
In certain jobs your not even allowed to carry id since it's used as a deposit for work.
Paperwork can be a nightmare for someone that has had a house fire , or a refugee from a country that is burning .
Once the FBI has fingerprints they can ID you even if you whish they wouldn't. This isn't available for every purpose .
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Border security is not nothing. You are close to the border, prove it for yourself.
Put on some makeup and color yourself Mexican, Go to the Goodwill and dress in pachuco clothes.
Leave your passport behind, and them go to Tijuana and try to sneak in.
I guaran fucking tee you if you will do this you will shut your stupid mouth about "open borders" after this.
Imbecile!
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Speaking of imbeciles, who claimed or even implied we currently have open borders??
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One of the problems with the way we are maintaining our border right now is that the patrol is in depth.
You can get stopped at a roadblock fifty miles from the border and need to present ID.
This is troublesome to people who live there and might get stopped like that several times a week.
If the fence worked better , this might be less needed.
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Anger issues?
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Speaking of imbeciles, who claimed or even implied we currently have open borders??
That would be YOU: This is what you said:
So, the Dems have a choice.....they can have open borders or they can have a welfare state. They can't have both
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Such a sad state, when a language professor can't grasp simple English language & context. ::) We HAD open borders & immigration back in the late 1700's & into the 1800's. Then I CLEARLY stated Back when we passed the 14th, we had open borders & open immigration. But something changed in this country....that being the emergence of the welfare state.
In other words, we adopted a Welfare state. But apparently the left wants both, in which I also made it clear that its not fiscally sustainable. We haven't had open borders for a LONG time.....you imbecile
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YOU claim that the Democrats want "open borders". That is what you said. They do not, you are the imbecile.
No Democrats has proposed that border controls be relaxed. Fewer illegals are entering now than when Juniorbush was in power, yet the idiot Republican'ts say they don't want to do anything about immigration until the government "regains control of the borders', although there are tighter restrictions now than ever before.
The actual situation is this: some Republicans want illegals to stay in the country and continue being illegal, because they are more docile and they are forced to accept less money. The management of the Republican Party uses the illegal alien issue to incense the ignorant nativists to think that the illegals are taking their jobs, are keeping wages low and are all on welfare. This is the cryto fascist know nothing bunch that Trump and others are catering to. The leaders of the GOP, the National Chamber of Commerce and Cato Crew, use the ignorant nativists to get elected. Other ignorant groups are the forced birthers, the religious nuts who think there is a war on Christians, the Climate Change Deniers, the Confederate Flag Fanatics, the Exceptionalists and the remnants of the Klan. That is the Republican't Coalition. And it is shrinking, shrinking, shrinking.
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EVERYTIME the notion that our border needs to be better secured, the Dems go apoplectic, as in they want the most relaxed means to enter, as possible. The more that cross illegally, the better. Until the Dems demonstrate a will to want to better control the flow of who does and doesn't enter illegally, makes any concept of "comprehensive immigration reform" moot, as they have no intention of enforcing anything, if they can't even enforce the simplest of laws, that of entering our country. And sorry, the facts are more illegals are entering this country, than ever before. Less Mexicans, but far more of everyone else, led by Central Americans. Not to mention how THIS administration decided to change the parameters of how we designate deported vs not.
Bottom line in refuting your rant, is that the "GOP" that might support illegal immigration, or to keep illegal immigrants here, is fraction of a fraction. While the vast majority of the Democrats embrace the idea of illegal immigration, especially those in political power. The more poor that they can import, the more need for Government services.....and which party is the one that pushes for MORE Government services again, AT TAX PAYER EXPENSE?
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There is no reason to stall on extending the possibility of legal residency to people already here who have been here for a decade and have American-born children. This is entirely unrelated to making it harder to enter.
It is NOT easy to get into the US. Most illegals have to pay $1500 or more. They come across in trucks, hidden among merchandise. There are tunnels and people with ladders.
The fact is that some Republicans, especially those in meatpacking, construction, hotels and agriculture like to have workers who are afraid to complain about dangerous jobs and crappy wages.
Others are simply suckers who were whipped into a frenzy because they are ignorant jerks.
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The FACT is that a vast majority of Democrats in power want ILLEGAL immigration despite the poverty that's imported, and the jobs taken away from LEGAL Americans & immigrants, stagnating wages in the process, all the while ending up with vastly more people in need of Government services.....AT TAX PAYERS EXPENSE
Until the border is more secure, which would demonstrate Democrats willing to enforce existing laws, they have no credibility what-so-ever in any claims they'd be willing to enforce new laws
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Recently I've been thinking for asians mainly we need more immigrants legal or otherwise. Im noticing we dont really multiply very well bere in the U.S. The thing about not having kids till we can afford is really screwing us up big time
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Another good reason to fix the system, vs maintaining a system that encourages illegal activity. ... even rewards the illegal act
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You cannot cause the number of illegals to fall to zero. Not even the East German Volkpolitzei could do that, and they had a quarter of the country spying on the rest and shot people trying to get over the wall on sight.
Now we have this pathetic bunch of imbeciles crying "MISTER PRESIDENT, BUILD UP THIS WALL!" And they claim to actually believe it will work. But it is only useful as a propaganda tool, not as any real deterrent.
What happens is that it only raises the price to cross the border, to get smuggled across in a tunnel or a container truck. When the price to get in goes from $1500 to $5000 what really happens? The illegals that are already in the country do not go home, because they will not have the money to return. Those with the crappy low paying jobs that sirs will not do, slaughtering chickens, picking lettuce, tarring roofs, they are the ones that will not go back.The rich ones who sell drugs, well, they have more money and will come and go at will.
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Why oh why oh why do you keep pushing hyperbolic extremes that no one either expects or advocates. OF COURSE WE'RE NOT GOING TO STOP ALL ILLEGAL BORDER CROSSINGS. The effort is to greatly decrease it. That starts with ENFORCING OUR CURRENT IMMIGRATION LAWS. A Physical fence with greatly help with that as well
This isn't about deporting who's here.....this starts with putting an end to the flood, bringing it down to a managable trickle. And anyone that "comes and goes at will" demonstrates precisely how porous our border currently is. This isn't rocket science, no matter how often you try to argue science faction
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What is a "manageable trickle" for you?
As I said, the Republicans who want cheap labor want them here and want them undocumented and vulnerable to threats. Somebody complains that they are being poisoned with insecticides in the fields or that the chicken cutting machinery in a slaughterhouse is too dangerous to use, someone talking union and the Boss Man, he calls La Migra and within a day the guy is arrested and on his way back home. THAT is what the Republicans want, and no trickle will ever be small enough to negotiate residency.
You are so fucking DENSE it is truly pathetic.
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What is a "manageable trickle" for you?
A reduction of 40-50% would be a good start, and we work from there
As I said, the Republicans who want cheap labor want them here and want them undocumented and vulnerable to threats
Which as I said is a fraction of a fraction of Republicans in power. While the vast majority of Democrats in power WANT illegal immigration, because of the perpetual power cycle they believe it gives them.
News flash.....the vast majority of Conservatives & Republicans, support LEGAL immigration. They also support immigration reform. What they don't support or believe is the Democrats' word in that they'd actually enforce anything passed, that functions as anything enforcement
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.................. the Republicans who want cheap labor want them here and want them undocumented and vulnerable to threats...................
This does not sound good to me.
Who in particular are these guys , and what is the policy set that would relieve this particular problem?
Earlier today I heard that employment of American Youth 15-20 years old is near all time highs especially among minorities . Related problem?
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Recently I've been thinking for asians mainly we need more immigrants legal or otherwise. Im noticing we dont really multiply very well bere in the U.S. The thing about not having kids till we can afford is really screwing us up big time
I find this statement very thought provoking!
Is there an US vs THEM pressure to compete felt racially?
Are people in the US so expensive to produce that it would pay to outsource the initial production phases and import nearly finished citizens?
Are Asians not thriving in the US? Does the appeal of the American Dream diminish if reproduction and rearing are difficult here?
If you answer several of these with a "Yes" then immigration needs change and many obstacles to successful parenthood need to be reduced also.
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Yes and no
We're not competing at all but somehow we're perceived as such. Thriving but hampered due to our lack of education. I cant speak for all asians but the culture here makes for family growth very chaotic. I'll even say its not racial and that overall just having a relationship in general is not easy today. But for asian our numbers does not seem very sustainable without outside resources.
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Does assimilation seem like a good or a bad thing to you?
Most of the people I know are not purebred anything.
Self included.
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I used to think assimulation for us asians was an advantage in the U.S. but lately I find the price abit too high lately. I understand alot of it is our fault for being perceived as inferior to most americans. but I`m hopeful we will overcome this .
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Perception is important , it is almost everything.
But perception can be false, it can be faked or tricked or bought.
I do not think of Asians as inferior , neither genetically nor culturally .
If assimilation is a good thing then the assimilated change the flavor of the stew with their spice as much as the melting pot adsorbs them.
If the melting pot is a bad thing , then it is just a miserable loss of self and culture as the Borg dismisses previous programming.
I don't think that loss of self or cultural learning is needed for the melting pot to work, it is a process of addition more than subtraction.
I don't think that the nation we have or want works without the blending of the many into one, we even put it on our money.
If there is a perception of Asian custom and person being unwelcome , this is an unfortunate thing.
Important whether true or not.
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our assimulation has been largely been perceive positive but lately it has backlfired as a trait of being weak. if another ethnic group gets mugged it`s a hate crime if an asian gets mugged they get told it`s what happens for being passive.
i only got this was way when a week long crimespree of mugging with one death happened . the judge at the time rule a not a hate crime due to the passive nature of asians as the cause of said crimes. this incident made me notice how weak we seem.
wallstreet journal recently called the president of china the chink in the armor .
I`m not saying we`re not passive but it`s obviously a problem and needs to be address. first thing is to fix our inferior educational background. american complaint too much how slow we are. XO even brought up the problem he has with his asians students
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This seems like a stupid thing for a Judge to say.
Isn't San Francisco famous for its Asian components?
Assimilation should not mean disappearance without a trace , there is a best way , where the new joins the old with mutual benefit.
I didn't know that there was a problem with Asian education, this is a new idea as far as I know.
I know a pair of Chinese brothers that have been here a long time , they are inventing the character of Chinese Maconite for themselves.
Not that they are entirely the first, but they are a scarce enough.
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Not asian education but more the type of education we get in general. We're way to practical to advance . It's the reason asian has done so badly in this country. Notice very few asian in any position in this country. You cant say it's because we dont lack desire. We're simply lacking in ability. But the next generation will get the better more broadbase education that will get us to the next level.
The next month after the judge rule not a hate crime more attacks happened . I believe now finally the hate crime laws may extend to asians. This not an issue do chinese get legal protections. This is to deter people from having an excuse to attack people in general. Elderly hispanics has this problem also. I know people hate the existence of hate crime laws in general . But it's an effective reminder laws are not being enforced.
No idea what maconite is .
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Perhaps maconite is something produced in Macon, GA.
There is also a Macon in France.
Of course agricultural labor contractors, meatpackers and construction companies will nit say they want easily intimidated illegals working for them, but that does not prevent them from donating huge amounts to politicians that yammer about how they will do nothing to legalize anyone unless the border is up to some vague standard, which can be changed at will. Clowns like sirs are very easily duped.
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Clowns like sirs are very easily duped.
You mean like if you like your insurance and your Dr, you can keep them? That after passing Obamination care, premiums would come down??
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I did not believe that everyone was going to keep their doctpor. Obama did all he could to support this, but he was not the ultimate authority.
Premiums have not risen as fast as they did before.
Again, Obama does not control premiums, so he cannot be blamed for this.
But are you a dupe? Yes, and in spades.
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So you knew Obama was lying to begin with. Well, at least that's a step in the right direction
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i don`t use covered california (obamacare) but i benefit greatly from it. true the cost is abit high but for someone with modest income it`s not truely out of bounds,
I found that blue shield which cost more than covered ca is less than 7 k a year so i`m confused about how this is a great hardship to working people.
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There is nothing that Obama does that sirs thinks is worth a damn.
This is fundamentally because sirs brain is not worth a damn, either.
No one can lie about a future event, by the way. The future is unknown to all.
Bush LIED about what Saddam had, because he knew Saddam was not a threat and claimed that he was.
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More projection I see. Priceless. You'll be sure to eventually demonstrate, with some facts, not just your mere twisted opinion, that Bush KNEW Saddam had no WMD, but took us to war anyways
And yes, you can lie about anything in the future, if you claim it as an imminent fact, vs simply a prediction
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Everyone should know that no one can see into the future. Everyone knows that anything and everything anyone says about the future is speculation.
If you think that anyone can lie about a future event beyond the absolute control of the person making the prediction, then you are not capable of logical thought.
No one can lie about the future unless they know they can control the event. Even then, there is always the possibility that they might drop dead before they can control the event.
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No one can lie about the future unless they know they can control the event.
Lie about the future #1: This weekend I will come put a new floor in XO's residence free of charge!
Lie about the future #2: I will fly a private jet to pickup SIRS next weekend and we will visit the Reagan Library!
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The plane crashes and you are a liar, right?
You have a massive infarction and cannot get to the plane, so you are a liar, right?
A tornado destroys the plane, the repo men take the plane, you have a bad tank of fuel, so you are a liar, right?
WRONG! You are just bad at predictions.
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Everyone should know that no one can see into the future. Everyone knows that anything and everything anyone says about the future is speculation.
NOT, when you're pledging that x WILL happen if you support/pass my z. Obama wasn't making a hopeful prediction, he made it painfully clear, premiums would come down, and you could keep your insurance & Dr....PERIOD.
Not a Prediction of future events. An absolute WILL happen, with the passage of the ACA
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Anyone with a brain knew that insurance companies make decisions about which doctors are on their lists. I think most people did keep their doctors. Certainly many did.
But you, lacking the required brain, cannot make sophisticated connections with regard to reasoning.
Stupidity has its failings.
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So stupidity is the explanation of President Obama's promises not kept about Obamacare?
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Anyone with a brain knew that insurance companies make decisions about which doctors are on their lists. I think most people did keep their doctors. Certainly many did.
While many more, who were promised they could keep them....period....didn't
Actually anyone with a brain, knew it likely a lie to begin with, and now its been validated as such. He made no indication as to these pledges as being predictions, of any kind. And yet you were duped. Imagine that
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Im to busy getting any doctor to see me. It's not just costly but tough to se a doctor without insurance. I had doc tell me he's risking his malpractice insurance by treating me. He still did it because he knows how screwed i am.
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It's just unfortunate that Congress couldn't work together Kimba, to address legislation towards your specific needs, vs 1 party shoving a new system down our throats, sold on lies, that a majority of the country has never supported, to destroy the old system
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The old system sucked. It deserved to die. Now it is dead and will never return and good fucking riddance. The Republican'ts refused to participate. They were invited and refused. Hell the ACA is simply a national version of Romneycare. So you might as well blame Romney.
Again, all anyone can say about what will happen in the future are PREDICTIONS. A LIE involves deliberate deceit involving the specific acts of the speaker. Obama did not have the power to add or remove doctors from any insurance company's list. Anyone capable of logical thought had to know that.
And it is not that there was a national plebiscite on the ACA, either.
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Our system had flaws, but it was far from sucks. It was head and shoulders better in quality than pretty much any other health care system, on the globe. A MAJORITY of the country liked their health insurance. You don't destroy a health care delivery system that was not just working, but supported by the vast majority
By the way......you might want to get those eyes checked. Your font is so big is appears your eyes must be 2 inches from the screen to read it
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I can tell you that the healthcare that I had through my job was only barely adequate. Every three or four years, the college would change providers, and we were not permitted to participate in any decision. Each time, the premiums went up, the percentage of ther total we had to pay went up, and the copay went up. On two occasions, my SS number was entered incorrectly (and I PRINTED it VERY carefully) so that the provider's request would be declined based on a wrong SSN and that would result in nasty letters from collection agencies. This happened to LOTS of us, and was obviously a ruse to delay payment, because some people will always pay when threatened and the insurance company would then NEVER reimburse them.
Since I retired, I have had two Medicare advantage plans and have had no difficulty. They are obviously carefully supervised by the government and it is easy to tell what they have paid and to whom. I have no copays and all but a part of one medication is covered.
All the Congress had to do was simply extend Medicare and the Advantage Plan arrangement to the entire population. Why wasn't this done: ONE WORD; REPUBLICANT'S.They are evil, vile siumbitcheed=s that are the enemies of most of the people of this country.
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And I can tell you that the healthcare I had thru my job, was excellent, punctual, efficient......everything it isn't now. I can also tell you that pre Obaminaton Care, healthcare at the hospital had the highest quaility provided. Now.....it doesn't....it can't, not like before. We do the best we can and call it quailty, but its just not possible under the new parameters of Obamination Care
Multiple plans that could have been implimented/legislated to target those who might be denied coverage for pre-existing conditions, but instead, the entire system is targeted and destroyed, and replaced with a system that most of the people of this country have never supported. And why was that done.....1 word.....Demawon'ts. They are evil, vile siumbitcheed=s that are the enemies of most of the people of this country
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You are mistaken, demented and flatplant stupid.
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Can't be mistaken with something I'm dealing with on a daily basis, oh master of wrongness & ignorance
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.... The Republican'ts refused to participate. They were invited and refused. ........[size]
Nope, this is not true.
The Republicans were cordially invited to go elsewhere while the AHCA was composed in 100% Democratic smoky rooms.
There were enough Democrats in congress to make Republican support superfluous and the President is not the sort to build a consensus with opponents .
If the AHCA is not perfectly streamlined and svelte there is no need for Republicans to share the blame with the Democrats.
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No idea what maconite is .
A brave dweller of Macon.
http://www.13wmaz.com/story/news/2015/09/01/website-macon-is-the-pits/71542188/