DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Lanya on February 23, 2007, 07:27:39 PM
-
"We need to understand that this is, in fact, World War III. Unlike any other world war we've ever fought, this one is one we cannot afford to lose. Because losing it does not mean we lose some land or some geopolitical influence. It means we give up our own lives, because no less than that is the goal of the jihadists."
Wow, you mean we didn't have to fight that ol' WW2? Have so many of our men killed and wounded? Go through the Bataan Death March? And not wear nylons and not use silk and collect cans for scrap and have Victory Gardens and have gas and tire and sugar and butter rationing and taxes and the draft and sell war bonds?
Jeez! Thanks, Huck! [Ex-governor Huckabee, candidate for president.]
http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070210/REPOSITORY/702100371/1217/NEWS98
-
We opted to side with the English and Russians both times.
Coould have chosen the other side.
-
"We need to understand that this is, in fact, World War III. Unlike any other world war we've ever fought, this one is one we cannot afford to lose. Because losing it does not mean we lose some land or some geopolitical influence. It means we give up our own lives, because no less than that is the goal of the jihadists."
Wow, you mean we didn't have to fight that ol' WW2? Have so many of our men killed and wounded? Go through the Bataan Death March? And not wear nylons and not use silk and collect cans for scrap and have Victory Gardens and have gas and tire and sugar and butter rationing and taxes and the draft and sell war bonds?
Jeez! Thanks, Huck! [Ex-governor Huckabee, candidate for president.]
http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070210/REPOSITORY/702100371/1217/NEWS98
This indeed is a war to the death. I sincerely beleive this. Radical Islam will take over the world if not stopped. How to actually go about that is however not so simple.
-
Professor, if you sincerely believe this, I have no doubt you are encouraging your children to enlist and serve in this cause. If this is a fight to the death, then certainly you would want them to fight for our country.
-
Lanya,
How do you know they haven't?
-
I don't, BT. I will maybe find out.
-
lanya,
You used his childrens status as some kind of gotcha.
Fact is you supported afghanistan. Using your logic your sons of age should have enlisted for that fight. And any others that came along during their term of service.
And if they didn't, then somehow your comments on either engagement have no merit.
What nonsense.
-
My children will hear what I think as soon as they ask.
-
Professor, if you sincerely believe this, I have no doubt you are encouraging your children to enlist and serve in this cause. If this is a fight to the death, then certainly you would want them to fight for our country.
I have no sons. My family line, as far as my last name, will most unfortunately die out with me.
-
I don't, BT. I will maybe find out.
Actually, I find it somewhat intellectually dishonest that many in this forum advocate all types of negative actions toward radical "ratwings" or radical "fundies", but when I mention that radical Islam is a threat, I get "intriguing" suggestions.
"What is good for the geese, is good for the gander."
-
lanya,
You used his childrens status as some kind of gotcha.
Fact is you supported afghanistan. Using your logic your sons of age should have enlisted for that fight. And any others that came along during their term of service.
And if they didn't, then somehow your comments on either engagement have no merit.
What nonsense.
We had the Marine recruiter talk to us when my older son was still in fall semester of senior year of highschool. They wanted him, he wanted to join. Then a military eye doctor said he had tiny cataracts and that was it for the military. He tried again after 9/11. Army, Navy, Air Force, even the Coast Guard. He thought surely they'd take people if a war was waged, but they didn't change the rules for that yet.
If in WW2 someone said, "This is a fight to the death," and yet his children were off going to college and whatnot, you betcha people would say, what is wrong with this picture?
-
This isn't WWII.
And are you saying that people with no children at risk, have no say in this national debate?
Do you have to be sickly to discuss national health?
Have to be rich to discuss the death tax?
-
I don't think that colledges shut down during WWII.
-
A lot of colleges had accelerated coursework so that a 4 year degree took 2.5 years. My father participated and was an officer on a supply ship in the Pacific by the time he was 19.
-
Hysterical nonsense generated by a pea-brained hillbilly who needs the attention to keep his Presidential campaign alive. This is monumental ignorance and stupidity, even from Arkansas. Sad day for America when a clown like this is a serious contender for the Republican nomination. You are really on a downward spiral.
-
Here's more on the V-12 Program
Navy V-12 Veterans
The Navy V-12 program sent some 120,000 young men to college to receive up to seven semesters of college education. Many of them would not have been able to go to college had it not been for the Navy program. These veterans, therefore, want today's you men and women to know about the educational opportunities that today's Navy and Marine Corps offer. Funds to sponsor this web site come from the V-12 Endowment which was established at the U.S. Navy Memorial Foundation by Navy and Marine Corps V-12 veterans.
The Navy V-12 Program
Background
In fulfilling the strategy developed in the dark days of 1942 for retaking the continent of Europe from Nazi Germany and the Pacific Ocean and contiguous lands from Japan, the United States Navy scheduled a massive shipbuilding program that would extend over a number of years. The Navy knew it would need college-educated junior officers to help man these ships. Likewise, the Marine Corps saw the continuing need for new lieutenants.
In November 1942, the draft age was lowered to 18, which would have cut off college enrollment for many potential officer candidates. Because the Navy traditionally insisted that its officers be college graduates, the Navy V-12 program was inaugurated to provide undergraduate education for selected applicants. Those who successfully completed their college courses qualified for Navy midshipmen schools or Marine Corps Officer Candidate School, which led to commissions as Navy ensigns or Marine Corps second lieutenants.
Through nationwide testing and from enlisted applicants already serving on active duty, 120,000 were eventually selected to participate in the program. In uniform and in an active duty enlisted status, these selectees attended regular college classes on the campuses of 131 colleges and universities. Of the Sailors and Marines in the program, about 60,000 completed the curriculum and went on to receive commissions. Many returned to college after the war to complete undergraduate or graduate degrees.
The V-12 program led the way in commissioning opportunities for blacks. In December 1943, the Bureau of Naval Personnel prohibited discrimination in the selection of V-12 candidates. This action was fully nine months before the first African-American officer was commissioned in the Navy.
Aftermath
Navy V-12 had long-lasting results, as it produced leaders for the top echelons of business and the professions. Lawyers, educators, and engineers comprised the largest group, but the fields of medicine, dentistry, business, industry, advertising, journalism, sports, show business, and government service are well represented, too. More than 40 future Navy admirals and 18 Marine Corps generals started their military careers in the Navy V-12 program.
Among the most famous alumni of the V-12 program two were actors. Both would go on to play the role of a naval officer, Ensign Frank Pulver, in productions of Mister Roberts. Jackie Cooper played the role on stage and Jack Lemmon immortalized the character in the film version.
Other Distinguished Navy V-12 Alumni
Warren Christopher - Secretary of State
George Allen - Football Coach
Howard Baker - Senator, White House Chief of Staff
Angelo Bertelli - Notre Dame Football star and Heisman Trophy Winner
Johnny Carson - TV Star
Louis J. Cioffi - TV Newsman
Peter Hackes - TV Newsman, White House Correspondent
Jackie Cooper - Actor, Producer, Director
Alvin Dark - Baseball Player, Manager
Jeremiah A. Denton, Jr. - Senator, Navy Admiral
Daniel J. Evans - Senator, Governor
Samuel Gravely - First Black Navy Admiral
Elroy Hirsch - LA Rams Football Great
Robert F. Kennedy - Attorney General, Senator
Bowie Kuhn - Commissioner of Baseball
Melvin Laird - Secretary of Defense
Jack Lemmon III - Actor
Charles McC. Mathias, Jr. - Senator
James McClure - Senator
William Middendorf II - Ambassador, Secretary of the Navy
Daniel Patrick Moynihan - Senator, Ambassador
Robert C. Pierpoint - TV Newsman, White House Correspondent
Albert L. Rosen - Baseball Player
Carl T. Rowan - Columnist, TV Personality, Ambassador
Pierre Salinger - Newsman, Presidential Press Secretary
William Webster - Director, CIA and FBI
Thomas Wicker - Columnist
Roger Williams - Musician, Entertainer
http://www.lonesailor.org/v12history.php
-
Wow. That's a great program. And I never heard of it before. Thanks, BT.
-
Hysterical nonsense generated by a pea-brained hillbilly who needs the attention to keep his Presidential campaign alive. This is monumental ignorance and stupidity, even from Arkansas. Sad day for America when a clown like this is a serious contender for the Republican nomination. You are really on a downward spiral.
I don't think it hyshisterical or nonsnse , nor even stupid.
It is a response to the stated pupose of Al Queda.
Al Queda is already a world wide organisation that has taken over the government of a government in the past merely for use as tool.
Al Queda has a good chance to estalish itself as the pwer behind the throne in Iraq , and to get Afganistan back.
Why shuldn't they try ?
-
<<It is a response to the stated pupose of Al Queda.>>
Really? Al Qaeda has stated that its purpose is to take the lives of all Americans in America? Even my two little grandchildren? Al Qaeda's stated purpose is to kill all 300,000,000 Americans?
I must have slept through that, plane. Why, that's just terrible. Horrible. Show me where they said that, please.
-
<<It is a response to the stated pupose of Al Queda.>>
Really? Al Qaeda has stated that its purpose is to take the lives of all Americans in America? Even my two little grandchildren? Al Qaeda's stated purpose is to kill all 300,000,000 Americans?
Or subjugate them, or covert them. There are 3 options AlQeada is providing us, not just 1
-
<<Or subjugate them, or covert them. There are 3 options AlQeada is providing us, not just 1>>
What are you, the Re-Write Man?
Huckabee or whatever that ignorant hick's name was, stated quite clearly that the battle ("World War III" in his erudite opinion) was for your very LIVES, not your faith or your political system.
-
<<Or subjugate them, or covert them. There are 3 options AlQeada is providing us, not just 1>>
What are you, the Re-Write Man?
Huckabee or whatever that ignorant hick's name was, stated quite clearly that the battle ("World War III" in his erudite opinion) was for your very LIVES, not your faith or your political system.
Same diffrence to me , I don't plan to live through the subjugation.
-
I don't, BT. I will maybe find out.
Actually, I find it somewhat intellectually dishonest that many in this forum advocate all types of negative actions toward radical "ratwings" or radical "fundies", but when I mention that radical Islam is a threat, I get "intriguing" suggestions.
"What is good for the geese, is good for the gander."
Intellectually dishonest?
That is what I am trying to point out here. People who think this war is a fight for our nation's very survival, a fight to the death, seem oblivious to the fact that if their kids aren't serving in the military, someone else's are and they're getting hurt and killed. I didn't make an "intriguing suggestion."
Unless you think it's simply out of bounds for anyone to suggest the burden of military service be more widely spread.
-
conflicts require a wide range of resources not only bodies. Prayer, material resources, willpower, and many others comprise this list. In WWII, many did not serve in the nation's armed forces fr a variety of reasons, yet they still were avid supporters of the war by their sacrifices. Giving of your life's blood is only one of many ways to fight.
Also, to not recognize the threat inherent in radical religion of ANY form is naive at best. After all, many in this forum previously have said this about radical fundamentalists. Why is it such a stretch to apply that same metric to radical Islam?
-
<<Same diffrence to me , I don't plan to live through the subjugation.>>
Oh, I didn't realize you spoke for 300 million Americans. So "subjugation" and "conversion" now are the same thing as death for the entire nation since not a single one of the 300 million would plan to live through the subjugation. Thanks for clearing that up.
You people get weirder and weirder all the time. In fact, the history of Islam is full of conquests, subjugation and forced conversions during which not one nation ever chose death over either conversion or subjugation. But I wouldn't let a trivial concern like historical fact get in the way of a great death-wish fantasy.
As a matter of fact, not only is it a lie to claim that al Qaeda's "stated purpose" is to take the lives of all Americans, I'd like to see where al Qaeda even states its purpose is to subjugate or convert all of them.
-
<<Or subjugate them, or covert them. There are 3 options AlQeada is providing us, not just 1>>
What are you, the Re-Write Man?
No, just the bringing hyperbole back to reality man
Huckabee or whatever that ignorant hick's name was, stated quite clearly that the battle ("World War III" in his erudite opinion) was for your very LIVES, not your faith or your political system.
Same diff, if those lives are to be subjugated under Islam, if not converted
-
<<Same diffrence to me , I don't plan to live through the subjugation.>>
Oh, I didn't realize you spoke for 300 million Americans. So "subjugation" and "conversion" now are the same thing as death for the entire nation since not a single one of the 300 million would plan to live through the subjugation. Thanks for clearing that up.
You people get weirder and weirder all the time. In fact, the history of Islam is full of conquests, subjugation and forced conversions during which not one nation ever chose death over either conversion or subjugation. But I wouldn't let a trivial concern like historical fact get in the way of a great death-wish fantasy.
As a matter of fact, not only is it a lie to claim that al Qaeda's "stated purpose" is to take the lives of all Americans, I'd like to see where al Qaeda even states its purpose is to subjugate or convert all of them.
I don't think that the Kaizer or Hitler or Mosoulini or Tojo or Stalin ever promised to kill us all , I wonder why we cared on those occasions who would call the shots in Europe.
http://austinbay.net/blog/?p=929
Here’s Al Qaeda’s statement of purpose (equivalent to a mission statement):
A religious group of the nation of Mohammad (God’s blessing and peace be upon
him) whose faith is the faith of the believers in Sunna (profit teachings) and
Jama’ah (consensus), are adopting Jihad as a method for change so that the
‘Word of God’ becomes supreme, and they (the group) are working to provoke
Jihad, prepare for it, and exercise it by whatever means possible.
The prophet said “There are those of my nation who are victorious and will stay
victorious till the day they face their fate and die†narrated by (Al-Bukhari
252/4). And the Prophet also said: “There is still a group of my nation fighting
for justice victorious over their enemy until the last of them fights the Antichristâ€
narrated by Abu Daud (The book of Jihad, Chapter 4)…
.............................
Abu ‘Abdullah Al-Kuwaiti’s undated letter is addressed to the American people. He writes that he is announcing publicly the next attacks against the Americans, and that groups in America and Europe, which are “above suspicion,†have been given the green light to move. He also writes that there is no animosity between “us†and the Americans; the war is only between “us†and the Jews. By interfering in their countries, the Americans have brought this on themselves.
He goes on that they have nuclear and biological weapons with which they will kill “hundreds of thousands†of people that they don’t otherwise wish to fight.
http://www.ctc.usma.edu/aq/AFGP-2002-600048-Trans.pdf
-
An excerpt from Jihad Report/Commentary: "The Historical parallels of modern militant Islamism to 1923-1945 Nazi Germany are staggering. Adolf Hitler & his followers in the Nazi movement of Germany saw the Germanic Aryan as the "perfect race", destined to rule the world, and purge it of the "lesser races". So too, does the modern and latest incarnation of Fascist Totalitarianism, radical fundamentalists Islamiism, see the vision of a "perfect religion", that is destined to rule the world, and purge it of the "infidel"
1930's Italian Fascism, like German Fascism, and even Japanese militarism, was at its core a racist & zenophobic movement, that systematically discriminated & persecuted human beings on the basis of their racial, ethnic, or national affiliation. Nazism, Fascism, and revolutionary Communism all sought (and still seek) to create a centralized authoritarian state to enforce blanket obedience to a reactionary, all-encompasing autocratic ideology
Modern Islamo Fascism does all of this, but with a religious twist; It is not simply the Fuhrer commanding the death and enslavement of millions, it is Allah himself, as conveniently interpreted by his self proclaimed priests, clerics, mullahs, and imams, and of course, as by his distinguished warrier prophet - Muhammad. And of course, who would have the temerity to argue with or oppose Allah, the almighty himself, or his designates?
And none of that weak, tepid, western "panties on the head", barking dog, loud music, no sleep, no dessert, "pinkie"-slapping, or humiliating low crawling nudity stuff. That's the sort of "weekend in the city" that most would pay good money to receive from any compotent dominatrix
No, we're talking about real, honest-to-goodness, actual torture. Real blood, sharp objects, razor blades, & piano wire, needles & nails, ruptured organs, living eviserations, missing body parts, gouged out eyes, dripping acid, and death-is-a-blessing denied type torture. The kind of base, senseless cruelty that the West sees today, only in the most vile slasher movies and video games.
Like any group of people, Muslims come in all varieties, the good, the bad, and the simply indifferent. While it is desirable to hope that the largest majority of Muslims do not follow or agree with the principles of the violent jihad, as are being promulgated by their more aggressive brethren, it is certainly now up to them to demonstrate, through their own postive words and actions, a firm rejection of the more aggressive and violent tenents of their faith, and the members or leaders that espouse them.
-
<<Same diff, if those lives are to be subjugated under Islam, if not converted>>
So death is preferable to life under Islam or conversion. Sounds like the fanatic is YOU. Even if that BS were true, if there really were no difference, why the hick didn't just say that what was at stake was life under Islam or not?
You are so intellectually dishonest. Just as "mushroom cloud" means nuclear anihilation, so "lives at stake" means lives at stake, not "subjugation" or "conversion" or whatever bullshit meaning you choose to give it, rather than admit that the guy who said it was lying. What's really sickening is your willingness to deny the plainest and most obvious meaning of words, when they suit your purpose.
-
<<A religious group of the nation of Mohammad (God’s blessing and peace be upon
him) whose faith is the faith of the believers in Sunna (profit teachings) and
Jama’ah (consensus), are adopting Jihad as a method for change so that the
‘Word of God’ becomes supreme, and they (the group) are working to provoke
Jihad, prepare for it, and exercise it by whatever means possible.
The prophet said “There are those of my nation who are victorious and will stay
victorious till the day they face their fate and die†narrated by (Al-Bukhari
252/4). And the Prophet also said: “There is still a group of my nation fighting
for justice victorious over their enemy until the last of them fights the Antichristâ€
narrated by Abu Daud (The book of Jihad, Chapter 4)…>>
OK so what part of the above indicates a "stated purpose" of killing all 300,000,000 Americans?
-
<<No, just the bringing hyperbole back to reality man>>
Good, then I hope you'll agree that the hillbilly's hyperbole (that this is a fight in which all of your lives are at stake) should be brought back to reality (that al Qaeda has no "stated purpose" of killing each and every American.)
-
Just so no one loses track of the real point of this thread, here are the actual words of the hillbilly moron that Lanya was quoting:
<<We need to understand that this is, in fact, World War III. Unlike any other world war we've ever fought, this one is one we cannot afford to lose. Because losing it does not mean we lose some land or some geopolitical influence. It means we give up our own lives, because no less than that is the goal of the jihadists.">>
sirs says, it's all the same whether al Qaeda wants to subjugate us all, forcibly convert us all or kill us all. Obviously, this is not the hillbilly's opinion. Notwithstanding Hitler's intention to subdue the Allied Powers, the hillbilly clearly says that this is not simply a fignt against subjugation, it's a fight for our lives. <It means we give up our own lives because . . . that is the goal of the jihadists.>> Plainer than that, you can't make it.
plane says <<I don't think that the Kaizer or Hitler or Mosoulini or Tojo or Stalin ever promised to kill us all , I wonder why we cared on those occasions who would call the shots in Europe.>> But the hillbilly KNOWS that; he says this is <<unlike any world war we've ever fought.>> So sure, plane, according to this guy, the stakes were much lower in WWII because he claims you were NOT fighting for your lives then. He claims now you are.
So: why did I call this silly, hysterical nonsense? Because it IS silly and hysterical to claim that your lives are at stake in this struggle, unlike in previous world wars. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to indicate that al Qaeda in its "stated purpose" or elsewhere has ever attempted or even justified the killing of all 300,000,000 Americans. That is just pure bullshit.
-
<<No, just the bringing hyperbole back to reality man>>
Good, then I hope you'll agree that the hillbilly's hyperbole (that this is a fight in which all of your lives are at stake) should be brought back to reality (that al Qaeda has no "stated purpose" of killing each and every American.)
Not quite...that the hyperbole that it's the death of every living American is brought back to the reality that Al AlQeada's/militant Islam's goal is that every living American (actually any non-muslim) is to convert to Islam, be subjugated by it, or die...in other words, our lives are at stake
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to indicate that al Qaeda in its "stated purpose" or elsewhere has ever attempted or even justified the killing of all 300,000,000 Americans. That is just pure bullshit.
Actually, that's an example of hyperbole, but yea, you could also call it BS, since it's not limited to simply killing every American ::)
-
So their goal being to merely subjuate or convert us is not so bad and not worth a fight?
Defending our way of life and freedom is worth now what it ever was.
The subjugation process sounds kinda unplesant anyway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_invasion_of_India
Considerable controversy exists both in scholarly and public opinion about the conversions to Islam typically represented by the following schools of thought:[2]
That Muslims sought conversion through jihad or political violence [2]
A related view is that conversions occurred for pragmatic reasons such as social mobility among the Muslim ruling elite [2]
Conversion was a result of the actions of Sufi saints and involved a genuine change of heart [2]
Conversion from Buddhists and the lower castes for social mobility and a rejection of oppressive caste strictures [citation needed]
Was a combination, initially made under duress followed by a genuine change of heart [2]
Embedded within this lies the concept of Islam as a foreign imposition and Hinduism being a natural condition of the natives who resisted, resulting the failure of the project to Islamicize the Indian subcontinent and is highly embroiled with the politics of the partition and communalism in India.[2]
An estimate of the number of people killed, based on the Muslim chronicles and demographic calculations, was done by K.S. Lal in his book Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India, who claimed that between 1000 CE and 1500 CE, the population of Hindus decreased by 80 million. His work has come under criticism by historians such as Simon Digby (School of Oriental and African Studies) and Irfan Habib for its agenda and lack of accurate data in pre-census times. Lal has responded to these criticisms in later works.
The Hindu I have met are still proud of their resistance to conversion .