DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Xavier_Onassis on September 23, 2016, 01:59:44 PM

Title: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 23, 2016, 01:59:44 PM: [(http://i64.tinypic.com/sfxwuq.jpg)
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on September 23, 2016, 06:13:01 PM: Was there ever better care available to the people Mother Theresa cared for?

If she was preventing these people from going to better hospitals I would understand this joke better.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 23, 2016, 10:52:36 PM: Well, Mother Teresa collected tons of money for her hospices and she sent most of it on to the Church, rather than spend it on things like doctors, medicine or painkillers. That is the most usual criticism of her.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on September 24, 2016, 01:50:17 PM: And who exactly is criticising her?? ???
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 24, 2016, 04:25:47 PM: LIke here, for starters:

http://knowledgenuts.com/2013/09/27/mother-teresa-was-a-crook-and-a-fraud/
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on September 24, 2016, 04:28:27 PM: Well, that's a bunch of idiocy
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 24, 2016, 04:33:54 PM: To you, perhaps. But the facts are pretty well known.
It is impossible to deny that she was obsessed with the idea that suffering was a positive thing, and the more people suffered, the more godly they were.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on September 24, 2016, 04:38:35 PM: So was Jesus.......and?
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 24, 2016, 04:46:11 PM: Jesus was said to perform miracles to ALLEVIATE suffering. He made the crippled to walk, the blind to see, the lepers to be cured.

Jesus himself was supposed to suffer, because we humans were very, very bad. Our first ancestors paid too much attention to a talking snake, after all. And after that, it just got worse and worse.

God did his best to improve Mankind, by drowning damned near all of us. But that didn't work, either, we were so really really bad.

And of course, the only way to deal with all that badness is for God to have himself (or God, Jr., there is a bit of controversy about exactly what God is)nailed to a cross. That is perfectly logical, right?
'
Like God is actually Three entities and one entity at the same time... totally logical.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on September 24, 2016, 04:49:28 PM: Jesus made clear that he advocated people leave their worldy possessions, and to literally embrace poverty. Point being you're apparently in that camp that is critical of Mother Theresa?? Seriously??
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 24, 2016, 06:23:19 PM: I have not taken any vow of poverty, and I see no virtue in poverty or suffering, If Mother Teresa (who was born with a name other than Teresa - the Albanian equivalent of Agnes- and was no one's mother) received money to alleviate suffering and spent it on something else. then she was a fraud in my book.

As for Jesus, the information we have about him was secondhand at best. As I have said many times, he should have written his own gospel. I don't consider it possible for the Bible to be accurate, as it contradicts itself on many, many matters.

The Christian religion is a much heavier dose of Paul than Jesus, and I have little respect for Paul. He was a publicist and was clearly more interested in publicity and winning converts than the truth.

The Jewish description of what a Messiah should be is very different from what the Christian religion says a messiah was.
The Jewish Messiah was a military leader who defeats the enemies of the Hebrews and then becomes king, A king like David, a mortal. That was clearly not what Jesus was.

The closest person to being an actual Messiah was Shimon Bar Kokhba, who actually drove the Romans out of Israel in 132 CE. He ruled until the Romans returned with a bigger army in 135, and was killed. After that, Jerusalem was destroyed and Jews were evicted. His name means "Son of the Star", He was reputedly a badass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_bar_Kokhba

Nowhere in the Jewish religion does any human become born as an actual son of God.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on September 24, 2016, 06:47:40 PM: Has nothing to do with any vows you have or haven't take, Professor Deflection. The issue is you are apparently of the mindset in criticising, of all people, Mother Theresa.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 24, 2016, 07:03:05 PM: And I am somehow banned from criticizing Mother Teresa? Is there a law against it?

How about you, Good Christian sirs? Have you taken your vow of poverty? Do you think you gain holiness as a result of suffering?

That is the topic, isn't it? Proposed:"Suffering is a good thing: people who suffer are greatly improved by suffering."

How about The Donald. He doesn't do a lot of suffering. He claims that he never has done anything to seek forgiveness for, either.

Being The Donald means never having to say you are sorry. Except rhetorically.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on September 24, 2016, 07:46:09 PM: Dr Deflection strikes again......no one said, or even inferred you're not allowed to criticize Mother Theresa. Simply that you get no immunity from being criticized for criticising, of all people, Mother Theresa
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on September 24, 2016, 08:33:30 PM: Paul thanked God for his own suffering, he didn't wish it on anyone , but clearly considered it as a part of his life and growth.

Everyone suffers , it really is unavoidable, there isn't much need to create any extra.

Mother Teresa lived a simple life herself and her quarters were the most modest in the building.

If she contributed to the church , that is very ordinary, it is expected.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on September 24, 2016, 09:13:01 PM: Quote
"How many American hospitals have Atheists built?" is "All of them.".http://liberalslikechrist.org/+Believable/HospitalOrigins.html

Hahaha!

This is leading to some interesting places.

But back on topic, I see it established here that Mother Teresa did not produce the only leper sanctuary, not the only hospital, not the only orphanage in any of these areas.

So how did she fill her hospital?

If there was adequate alternative, how did she get customers enough to keep her sisters busy?
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 24, 2016, 09:58:19 PM: Atheism is not a religion, it is not a cult. Atheists do not band together to win brownie points with God,m because they do not believe in God. In this country it is unwise to admit to being an atheist, and there are no advantages to admitting it anyway. But atheists do good works just like believers, they just do not put their name on them as atheists.

Atheists are rarely evangelical, They have no desire to convert anyone.
I find the cartoon The Atheist Pig amusing, as well as philosophical.

Many doctors are atheists and many hospitals are built by doctors.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on September 24, 2016, 11:49:25 PM: If Atheism were a cult , and they built a hospital or a sanctuary for lepers ...

... I could gripe that they were keeping people out of better hospitals and sending their surplus to the central office.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 25, 2016, 10:56:13 AM: That doesn't make sense.
No one is inspired by atheism to do good works. Atheists who do good works do them because they simply want to benefit their fellow men or the zoo, or whatever cause it is.

The Medical profession, by the way, has all but eliminated leprosy. Scientifically, not miraculously. They easily outdid Jesus in curing leprosy.

Atheism is not a cult and will never be a cult, or a religion. It is simply a statement of a lack of belief.
Just like there is no cult for people who dislike asparagus or like anchovies on their pizzas. There are no rituals, no initiations, no baptisms, no marriages, none of that stuff. There are no atheist priests to support. The closest you get to that are atheist writers like Christoper Hitchins who state their beliefs and then perhaps discuss or debate them in forums. There are a lot of such forums and discussions on youtube.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 25, 2016, 02:04:16 PM: So, what is the value of suffering?

I don't see any.

These guys do. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/hundreds-afghan-shiite-muslims-perform-6680465
Self-torture seems to be a psychological mental problem of the Middle East.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on September 25, 2016, 07:07:47 PM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on September 25, 2016, 02:04:16 PM
So, what is the value of suffering?

I don't see any.

................

Have you ever suffered?

I know that is a silly question, if you are a Human you have experienced suffering.

But what did you learn of it?

Do people who are never frustrated patient?

Are people who have never been cheated more honest thereby?

Would someone without any experience of pain be a normal person?

Suffering is really unavoidable , but the learning and reaction to it involves a lot of choices and lost or gained wisdom.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: kimba1 on September 25, 2016, 10:11:18 PM: Well
Life lesson using pain as deterrent. My nephew the in karate finally learned to wear his cup when his sister kicked him in the balls. Niw he can adk his sister to never kick him there but he'll likely learn another life lesson if he tries that
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on September 26, 2016, 07:08:10 AM: Quote from: kimba1 on September 25, 2016, 10:11:18 PM
Well
Life lesson using pain as deterrent. My nephew the in karate finally learned to wear his cup when his sister kicked him in the balls. Niw he can adk his sister to never kick him there but he'll likely learn another life lesson if he tries that

Oh yes , in a martial arts class there are many lessons like that.

In ordinary life the lesson might be even less subtle.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 26, 2016, 09:42:53 AM: Pain teaches us to avoid dangerous results. But I am talking about DELIBERATE suffering, like monks and other religious nuts perform to demonstrate devotion. Like Mother Teresa thought was so great.

Such as enduring a headache rather than taking a pill to make it away.

The whole Jesus deliberately hanging on the cross to erase an incident of an ancestor heeding the advice of a talking snake, for example, is just silly.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on September 26, 2016, 10:09:43 AM: Silly to you perhaps
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 26, 2016, 12:04:34 PM: Why not silly to everyone?
Why should a suffering deity be regarded with greater respect than one that is actually omnipotent?

This is related to the pagan rite of sacrifice, of course. Sacrificing vegetables somehow is unimpressive, but sacrificing things that bleed makes for a much more impressive ritual, and quite often for a better diet for the priests.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on September 26, 2016, 01:09:03 PM: Because Christians view Christ's sacrifice for our eternal life is anything but "silly". That's why
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 26, 2016, 06:02:38 PM: The idea that the entire human race is guilty because some distant ancestor was disobedient is absurd. I bet Donald Trump has LOTS of relatives who were the SS, Hitler Youth, served as guards at Auschwitz. So why don't we blame him for errors of his relatives' ways?

Because of course, condemning someone for the misdeeds of an ancestor is unjust and silly.

Why should it be in any way necessary for Jesus to submit to torture for his mother's human relatives to be forgiven? If God is omnipotent all he really needed to do was simply say, okay, I forgive you. All of you.

This is all tied up in the absurdity of sacrificing animals and humans to deities. It is strictly emotional and make no fucking logical sense whatever,

The Christian religion is built on ancient tribal foolishness. Of course, we know what the REAL justification is: the priests need to be fed and revered. So we tell all the saps that they are evil sinners and must be redeemed on a regular basis so they will support a bunch of priests.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on September 26, 2016, 06:24:48 PM: All your deflection efforts aside, we're not required to understand why God does what he does. He just does. And Christ's ultimate torture and sacrifice guaranteed Christians of an eternal life in heaven, that our human predilection towards sin, would have prevented. That just is, and doesn't require any more explanation than that.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on September 26, 2016, 09:55:59 PM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on September 26, 2016, 06:02:38 PM

Because of course, condemning someone for the misdeeds of an ancestor is unjust and silly.

That is not a really good understanding of how things work.

If your people ten generations ago scraped all the topsoil off of the fields where you need to raise corn right now , you will suffer for this bad choice that you were not consulted of.

If your people caught the last Stellar Sea Cow and ate it , you have no sea cows to eat now , nor even such a thing to look at.

If your generation spends every dime that the next three generations can earn , the generations that follow will have to bear this problem .

Suppose that a few of us contribute to Ducks Unlimited and therefore the ducks survive this present opportunity to become extinct, does it matter that there will still be ducks when all of our generation is dead?

If there were never an Adam And never an Eve we did have at some point some small number of ancestors, who chose not only to survive their hard times , they chose to thrive and grow and spread and explore and dominate the Earth.

They chose to exploit and learn and remember a heritage.

They chose to separate themselves from nature.

And we bear these consequences , good and bad.

Can you imagine an elegant allegory for this?
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 27, 2016, 09:24:38 AM: Well, sure, destroying the ecological balance would punish future generations.
But the tale of Adam Eve and the talking snake (who formerly had legs, until Phht! De Lawd removed them from him and all his offspring was not in any way about the ecological balance.

Jehovah said that if Adam ate the forbidden fruit, he would die. Well, Adam, according to the Bible, Adam lived NINE HUNDRED AND THIRTY YEARS. And we complain about death sentences that stretch out for 20 years. But those of us who came after Adam, well, they croak almost always before they turn 100, and not a one of them was guilty of eating any forbidden fruit.

Somehow after the Forbidden Fruit Tree was no longer needed as a character in this childish fable, it vanished and was heard of never again.

sirs claims that God is nonsensical because he does not have to make sense. What a cop-out!

There is no value to suffering. Pain has a purpose at times, though surely not all the time.
It is useful that we feel pain when we touch a hot griddle, so we don't burn our stupid hands off. But the pains arthritis have no reason to exist other than poor design.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on September 27, 2016, 12:45:30 PM: Spoken with the absolute steadfastness of a true believing atheist....impressively trying to apply the concept of Science to a deity, that transends both science and human brain power, and since unable to make that connection, must conclude God doesnt exist. One again, arguing a point no one is making, but apparently loves to spin his wheels, while proving absolutely nothing
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 27, 2016, 04:02:30 PM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNgdO0CQAVw
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on September 27, 2016, 04:03:38 PM: Entertaining fodder?
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on September 28, 2016, 02:06:24 AM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on September 27, 2016, 09:24:38 AM
Well, sure, destroying the ecological balance would punish future generations.
But the tale of Adam Eve and the talking snake ................

Everything ties together , but it helps to consider one bit at a time.

Choices made in the past do affect us now for good or ill, and things we do now will have to be coped with forevermore.

This is a general principal based on the single direction of time, and so the responsibility of the present is in the past and present, ....

That present is now the past and this present will be the past while we speak of it.

If Adam had a deal with God and didn't keep it, does this explain things about Adam , even if the story is so allegorical that Adam is not an individual?
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 28, 2016, 01:38:50 PM: How do you figure that Adam "had a deal" with God?
God had all the power, Adam had none.

Adam was no more than God's dog. If he disobeyed, he would be punished however God wanted to punish him. There is no mention that the Ten Commandments were negotiated, either, or the Covenant between God and the Hebrews.

Adam was told that if he ate the forbidden fruit, he would die. But he lived over 900 years longer.
Later, Adam's descendants were not told that if they pissed off God, God would wash them all away. On other occasions, God does propose some sort of tit for tat.

You say I am an atheist, but that is not true. I just reject the God mentioned in the Bible, because no truly just entity could be such a jerk.
So God is not precisely truthful.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on September 28, 2016, 02:17:18 PM: In other words....a true believing Athesist. Embrace your cult ;)
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 28, 2016, 03:31:40 PM: I just don't believe YOUR God could exist.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on September 28, 2016, 04:00:44 PM: Fine...I do. So there. And here's the best part, I'm not required to prove it to you, nor does God have anything to do with present Scientific method which trashes every one of your efforts to try and disprove him. 8)
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on September 28, 2016, 05:06:20 PM: (https://s18.postimg.org/v2gu1leih/learn_how_to_suffer_thich_nhat_hanh_daily_quotes.jpg)
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: kimba1 on September 28, 2016, 05:35:49 PM: i believe i will be off topic but still do it.

i think since suffering ,pain or difficulties are a part of life so this means we must learn endure so that we can function . the flaw in how we deal with pain is to not address it so we can make it less painful. I often observed when people complain many folks would respond by saying I don`t want to hear it. our culture prefer to ignore pain and not address it.

lets just say very little problem solving involved in matter about suffering
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on September 28, 2016, 05:59:12 PM: While I don't advocate active suffering, I accept suffering, as in I don't question God as to when it occurs. Without suffering, once can't fully experience the joy of being grateful or helpful or charitable
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: kimba1 on September 28, 2016, 06:33:43 PM: I never expect god to directly solve anything in my life. Most problems in our life is in our control and we are responsible to deal with it. Sadly we are not aware we can .
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on September 28, 2016, 07:44:27 PM: Quote from: kimba1 on September 28, 2016, 06:33:43 PM
Most problems in our life are in our control and we are responsible to deal with it. Sadly we are not aware we can .

wise words dr kimba!
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 28, 2016, 09:31:35 PM: There is a distinct difference between Mother Teresa and the Buddhists. The Buddhists speak of training oneself to live with suffering that can accompany life. Mother Teresa was gung-ho on suffering for its own sake. Not taking the money donated to her cause to give pain pills to her dying patients, but allowing them to suffer for the greater glory of God. The same sort of Middle Eastern nuttiness that induces monks and Shia Muslims to flagellate themselves and make themselves bleed.

The idea that in some wacko way people honor God/Allah by cruelly abusing themselves with whips and chains. In Mexico, there is a series of ancient, crumbling statues along the Calzada de los Misterios (The causeway of Mysteries) from colonial times that lead from the Nation Cathedral about ten miles to the Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe. And at any moment, you will see people, usually women,walking on their bloody knees the entire distance, in hopes that Jesus will pay attention to their prayers.

This is not mystical, it is not miraculous, it is a form of mental insanity. Like Mother Teresa denying pain medication to her poor, dying patients.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: kimba1 on September 28, 2016, 10:08:54 PM: To us it seems denying pain meds seems cruel. But does giving the meds a good idea? Most likely it would be in short supply and how does one pick who needs them the most and how would it effect those denied? How about all being taught to accept the pain and when death comes it would be most welcome. I say this because i had elderly parents and it made me face these concepts about suffering and morality . The medication are not always effective and can frustation. I often hear they only stop the pain. It's a strange statement to make about pain meds till i found out these drugs tend to feel incomplete to a patient. So basically these pain meds may actually cause more problems and was deemed not be offered.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 29, 2016, 09:24:02 AM: I disagree with that.
No pain is preferable to pain. If the medication "only stops the pain" well that is something, and an important something.

There is nothing noble or useful about "accepting pain".
If people want to accept pain, then they should be given that option.
Denying pain medication to the dying who are suffering is NOT causeing them to ACCEPT pain,only forcing them to ENDURE it.

Mother Teresa was some kind of nut.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: kimba1 on September 29, 2016, 11:43:47 AM: But from my experience it's not no pain it's kind of a numbing thing and in a large scale super hard to consistantly control the pain. These meds works better in a individual bases . I had a relative who was allow any amount for his final time but even then they had to control since too much can hasten his death. One possibility is if given those folks will likely od and die quicker and at that scale it's very posdible . It would look like thier poisoning them
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on September 29, 2016, 12:22:29 PM: Kimba I think we should legalize weed if it helps people suffering from medical ailments.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: kimba1 on September 29, 2016, 01:17:39 PM: Im kinda split on that. It has a very unrealistic rep . The most minor positive finding equal to breathing air get blown out of proportion. Ex. Cures cancer

People won't acknowledge pot breathe. On the one hand its super easy to produce to the point i really believe it shouldn't be that profitable for people to sell. But i also think should have very similar regulations like alcohol. I just do not believe its that harmless. If people want it to handle pain I got no problem with it but not as a cure. people can get bad reactions to it but it won't get reported.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 29, 2016, 05:03:05 PM: Pot clearly has some benefits as a medicine. The issue is whether the long-term contraindications outweigh the benefits. Pot affects people very differently.

I think is should be legalized as alcohol is legalized. I don't think it is nearly as bad as alcohol.

Suffering for suffering's sake is a defective part of both Christianity and Islam.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on September 29, 2016, 05:13:57 PM: I don't know much about Mother Theresa really.

But I have seen palliative care a few times.

Our doctors are scared to death of narcotic drugs and our laws.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on September 29, 2016, 11:15:43 PM: Quote from: Plane on September 29, 2016, 05:13:57 PM
But I have seen palliative care a few times. Our doctors are scared to death of narcotic drugs and our laws.

Plane....Palliative care is expanding and improving.

2 big new palliative care hospitals are opening in Dallas.

One thanks to T. Boone Pickens.

Boone Pickens also built a huge new state of the art cancer center in Dallas.

The guy has impact!

Pickens Palliative and Hospice Center:
http://northdallasgazette.com/2013/09/10/presbyterian-building-first-ever-hospice-care-facility-in-dallas/

Pickens Cancer Center:
http://media.baylorhealth.com/channels/Baylor-Cancer-Hospital/photos/baylor-t-boone-pickens-cancer-hospital

I tried to talk my brother when he got sick into palliative care, but he decided he didnt want to hang around....but I think in many cases palliative care can be a good choice.

I know some people that are in the throes of horrible battles with Stage 4 cancer, and sometimes I think I would just not be up for the battle they are fighting....and I might choose palliative care with a bunch of Xanax, Southern Comfort, and other drugs and just ride out the storm that way instead of the chemo-radiation hellhole route.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 29, 2016, 11:44:11 PM: I don't think that US doctors are scared of opiate drugs at all. The US has 5% of the world's population and consumed 75% of prescription drugs like Oxy Contin.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: kimba1 on September 30, 2016, 01:38:39 PM: i got serious doubts its rhe doctors who are opiate happy and giving them like candy. I always had a hard getting them and when i do I always feel thier weak. I think thier are other factors in play for why so much of these drugs are in the streets.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 30, 2016, 03:00:43 PM: It is one thing to give OxyContin to some otherwise healthy person with heel splinters or headaches. It is another to prescribe them for a terminal patient or someone on chemotherapy.

Big Pharma seems to have deliberately got millions addicted to opiates to make a buck.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on September 30, 2016, 03:26:40 PM: Big Pharma can't prescribe.....ANYTHING
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on September 30, 2016, 08:48:04 PM: Big Pharma pushes the doctors to prescribe the stuff. Every doctor has patients who complain about pain. OxyContin is indeed highly effective against pain. The trouble is that it is (a) addictive and (b) expensive. It is a high profit drug. The Pharma detail men simply reassure the doctors by telling them that it is safe. There are really good reasons why they sell so much of this stuff in the USA, and it is all about targeting doctors and patients.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on September 30, 2016, 09:23:06 PM: Big Pharma doesn't put a gun to any Dr's head, forcing them to over prescribe ANYTHING. Your beef is with Big DOCTOR, bot Big Pharma
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 01, 2016, 10:13:37 AM: It is illegal to buy Oxy Contin and other such opiates without a prescription, so the doctor is to blame if he writes a prescription. Big Pharma does all it can to push these pills, and is well aware of the abuse problem.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 01, 2016, 10:35:15 AM: You can't buy it WITHOUT A DR'S PRESCRIPTION. Big Pharma has ZERO control over that. As I said, your beef is with Big DOCTOR, not Big Pharma
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: kimba1 on October 01, 2016, 11:55:26 AM: Not really happy with this answer but it seems big pharma pushed for oxy to be used for a much wider range of illness to increase sales.
http://theweek.com/articles/541564/how-american-opiate-epidemic-started-by-pharmaceutical-company
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 01, 2016, 12:08:43 PM: yet even if that were 100% accurate, Big Pharma can still not force ANY Doctor to write a prescription for ANY drug, including Oxy. If a Doctor is going to act so ignorant and reckless, to not grasp both the indications, and more importantly, the contraindications of a drug, that THEY are prescribing, puts any issue of its overuse or over-prescribing, squarely on them

The only way Big Pharma has some nefarious bone, is if they are intentionally misleading Dr's as to the efficacy of a drug, like Oxy. Can THAT be demonstrated?
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on October 01, 2016, 12:10:43 PM: So let me make this point .

Mother Theresa did not cause any of this pain.

And did not force anyone to use her facility.

Her choices for use of painkillers don't sound like I would agree with them, but I also don't agree with everything we are doing here in the US with these things.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on October 01, 2016, 12:15:21 PM: Quote from: sirs on October 01, 2016, 12:08:43 PM

The only way Big Pharma has some nefarious bone, is if they are intentionally misleading Dr's as to the efficacy of a drug, like Oxy. Can THAT be demonstrated?

Change of vector if you don't mind....

Are Doctors getting pressured to prescribe wrongly?

From suppliers who give samples and gifts?

From patients who are responding to advertisement?

From patients who wheedle for their favorite drug?

From Government , which threatens dire consequence for certain kinds of mistake?
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 01, 2016, 12:23:43 PM: The Doctors can be pressured in 2 ways......1) pressure by way of ignorance, as in poorly educated or poorly keeping up with the latest research on medications that they may frequently be prescribing or 2) pressure by way of greed, largely moving aside their hypocratic oath, to fatten their pockets at the risk of more harm to their patients.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: kimba1 on October 01, 2016, 12:34:02 PM: I previously indicated that U.S. Medicine is very bad at treating pain. Of you think about it opiate are pretty much the only choice. Because telling the patient take it like a man and drink more whisky is not gonna happen. What else can they do . Im still surprised it's bern prescribed at such a amount since Im akways in pain and never ever gotten oxy and got drug addict friend most never tried it. Must be a regional thing.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 01, 2016, 01:48:51 PM: To be bluntly honest Kimba, I can't vouch for "treating pain" so much, but we are awash in various means of pain management, especially from the pill side of things. And opitates are but one option, albeit probably the strongest option. An educated Doctor will 1st start with all the various lesser pain medications, including NSAIDS (non-steroid forms). The number of pain management options are enormous, so not only are opiates not really the "only choice", they are but one of hundreds of choices. But as I said, they are probably the strongest, which is why a Doctor should use his best educated judgement in deciding what, and how much to prescribe a pateint with pain, especially chronic pain.

The issue again here is the Doctor. Nothing can be prescribed without his authorization. Big Pharma has no control over that.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 01, 2016, 02:40:39 PM: Big Pharma bankets the doctors of this country with ads and promotions. That is why more are some in this country than in any other by a huge margin.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 01, 2016, 03:00:01 PM: Because Doctors, who have spent years being educated, to literally have the ability to save lives on a daily basis, can't manage to control themselves around advertisments. But you can, of course ::)
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 01, 2016, 08:22:39 PM: There is a reason why American doctors are prescribing these addictive drugs while doctors in other countries are not. I suggest that it is NOT a wise decision and that the logical place to seek an answer is to look at the behavior of those who benefit most, namely, the Pharma industry.

When I was 17, I delivered prescriptions for a local drugstore that was owned by a neighbor.
For about a year and a half, I delivered a Morphine prescription to a elderly thin and cheerful man who lived alone in a large house. The pharmacist, who knew the man's doctor, told me that the guy had terminal cancer and not long to live. And of course, then he died. That is the sort of patient that should get opiates, I would say. By the way, the prescription cost 65¢ for a month's supply.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 01, 2016, 09:23:47 PM: Already addressed the "why". They're pressured because they're ignorant as to side effects and contraindications or they're pressured thru greed. Neither of which is forced by "Big Pharma"
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on October 01, 2016, 10:40:31 PM: Kratom

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/09/12/493295493/kratom-advocates-speak-out-against-proposed-government-ban

Have you heard of this stuff?

Legal till recently , pain relief with manageable side effects.

Beneficial to people trying to kick an opiate .

Now illegal.

Some of these decisions are the government being obtuse.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 02, 2016, 10:39:41 AM: http://www.kratomherbs.com/
It seems to be available now.
===================================

As for Oxycontin abuse, there is no way to explain why there is so much abuse of these expensive and addictive pills in the US compared to other countries than the actions of the drug companies who make bazillions of them.

Big Pharma is the nation's biggest pusher.
They know the problems, and they are not forced to sell or even make this stuff.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on October 02, 2016, 12:05:54 PM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 02, 2016, 10:39:41 AM
http://www.kratomherbs.com/
It seems to be available now.
===================================

Legislation is pending.

Practically anything that is an effective drug will have the government discourage it.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 02, 2016, 04:58:51 PM: Practically anything that is an effective drug will have the government discourage it.

I question that.

The FDA requires tests to protect the public from lethal drugs like Viox and mutant-causing drugs like Thalidomide.

I recall that the Salk vaccine for polio was put into use as soon as it passed the tests.

You just hate government.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 02, 2016, 07:55:58 PM: We hate oppressive & stifling government. Big difference
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on October 03, 2016, 07:17:20 AM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 02, 2016, 04:58:51 PM

You just hate government.

Yes , but does that make me wrong?
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 03, 2016, 08:55:49 AM: Quote from: Plane on October 03, 2016, 07:17:20 AM
Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 02, 2016, 04:58:51 PM

You just hate government.

Yes , but does that make me wrong?
FUCKING-A YES it makes you wrong. If you start off with the premise that "government is the problem", then every following idea based on that premise will also be wrong.

It is like beginning with the premise that the Earth is flat, the Sun revolves around the Earth, and that rhino horn will cure impotence.

What sort of oppressing am I suggesting? Only that the government limit the production sale of opiates to the few for whom there is no other drug. That the government ban ads hawking this shit, or at least ban promotional ads for prescription drugs to people as well as doctors.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on October 03, 2016, 07:37:01 PM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 03, 2016, 08:55:49 AM
........ If you start off with the premise that "government is the problem", then every following idea based on that premise will also be wrong.....

I don't , that would be just as wrong as a belief that the government is Always the solution.

When the government is the best solution then it is , but it really should seldom be the first resort, the bigger the government the less responsive it is to the will and need of the people.

Whatever can be done by business is better to do with business because a business can be destroyed without destroying public order .

This same principal applies to schools , churches , clubs and unions.

Whatever is smallest and nearest the people involved should be the proper tool for the solutions to problems , just so long as it is possible to be so.

Ultimately, where individuals can solve their own problems they should be let to, I am amused at people who dial 911 when they find manure on their lawn.

There are indeed problems in which the government forms the best solution, but in many instances the wrong choice is made by the government , then enforced on many individuals who could have chosen better for themselves.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 03, 2016, 08:13:23 PM: Quote from: Plane on October 03, 2016, 07:37:01 PM
Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 03, 2016, 08:55:49 AM
........ If you start off with the premise that "government is the problem", then every following idea based on that premise will also be wrong.....

I don't , that would be just as wrong as a belief that the government is Always the solution.

Precisely. Yet that's the reflexive lurch leftists will take if you dare criticize Governmental overreach, or worse, oppressive. It has prescious little to do with hating Governnment....that's the realm of Anarchists. Conservative have an issue with too-big-to-function efficiently Government. When it simply becomes an ever expanding, ever worsening bloated bureacracy, that cares little for anything other that expanding & more power, it becomes a self perpetuating oppresive death spiral
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on October 03, 2016, 08:22:39 PM: Imagine a coral reef that was trying to grow larger than the pool it was in , taller than the high tide line encompassing all the space in the pool.

This would not work well for a coral , to overgrow the water it needs, it also does not work well for a government to grow larger than its people.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 03, 2016, 08:25:32 PM: Excellent analogy
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 04, 2016, 12:27:23 AM: This country has 330 million people. That is more than double the number it was when I was born.
People got Obamacare because what we had before was inadequate and too expensive and the idea that the most profitable businesses in the country should be those that profit from the accidents and diseases of the most unfortunate citizens was loathed by a majority.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: kimba1 on October 04, 2016, 12:57:13 AM: But that is not address over and over i stated cost is the problem with healthcare and coverage is the only issue addressed. Which only makes things cost more. People in America actually fear getting treatment due to the uncertainty how much it would cost. No hospital has upfront pricing . Legally people cannot be denied but nothing stops a crazy stupid bill from being placed on them. Costwise healthcare is design for people to die in the streets. i think literally nobody can afford to give birth.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 04, 2016, 12:20:48 PM: The principle is that capitalism moderates the price of goods and services by competition. It is entirely correct that hospitals generally refuse to reveal their prices. The hapless patient is forced to sign an agreement to pay whatever the price the hospital wishes to charge.

The only way to make capitalism work is to grab the hospitals by the balls with proper regulations and squeeeeeeeeeeeze the bastards until they reveal their prices or simply have the government slap prices on procedures.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on October 04, 2016, 02:52:32 PM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 04, 2016, 12:27:23 AM
This country has 330 million people. That is more than double the number it was when I was born.
People got Obamacare because what we had before was inadequate and too expensive and the idea that the most profitable businesses in the country should be those that profit from the accidents and diseases of the most unfortunate citizens was loathed by a majority.

Would it not be nice if the government had grown no more than twice as large and expensive ?

The number of people doubling might excuse the size and expense of the government doubling, not quadrupling .

Would you buy a car if the governor outweighed the engine?

Would a ship be better if the pilothouse was larger than the hold?

Would an army work better if its generals outnumbered the privates?

I suppose a farm would be best if the farmer outweighed his chickens, cows and horses.

There probably a best size for government and a right price to pay for it, I would estimate that the right size is closer to the minimum necessary than to the maximum possible.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 04, 2016, 02:58:15 PM: Quote from: Plane on October 04, 2016, 02:52:32 PM
Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 04, 2016, 12:27:23 AM
This country has 330 million people. That is more than double the number it was when I was born.
People got Obamacare because what we had before was inadequate and too expensive and the idea that the most profitable businesses in the country should be those that profit from the accidents and diseases of the most unfortunate citizens was loathed by a majority.

Would it not be nice if the government had grown no more than twice as large and expensive ?

The number of people doubling might excuse the size and expense of the government doubling, not quadrupling .

Would you buy a car if the governor outweighed the engine?

Would a ship be better if the pilothouse was larger than the hold?

Would an army work better if its generals outnumbered the privates?

I suppose a farm would be best if the farmer outweighed his chickens, cows and horses.

There probably a best size for government and a right price to pay for it, I would estimate that the right size is closer to the minimum necessary than to the maximum possible.

another stellar anaolgy. Spot on, Plane
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: kimba1 on October 05, 2016, 12:28:16 PM: Im not sure that analogy works. Since most complaints are questions of policy than to many rules. If the rules are agreed than nobody would have a issue how large the government is. It's not too much government but more like what criminals always say to people "mind your own businesses".

Im totally not say the government is doing everything right far from it
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 05, 2016, 01:23:53 PM: The subject of this post is "the value of suffering", because Mother Teresa said that suffering per se had value and was appreciated by God.
I note that no one has seen fit to agree with Mother Teresa about this.
There is a long tradition in several religions regarding suffering as a manner of achieving enlightenment.
I think suffering sucks and should be avoided. Buddha tried suffering in the Forest of Trials

http://manganites.com/buddha/28-in-the-forest-of-trials
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 05, 2016, 01:25:58 PM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on September 23, 2016, 01:59:44 PM
[(http://i64.tinypic.com/sfxwuq.jpg)

I find a similarity between the Atheist Pig and the character of Brian the family dog in the cartoon Family Guy.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 05, 2016, 01:48:50 PM: Suffering as a result of circumstances is different than suffering for the sake of suffering
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: kimba1 on October 05, 2016, 04:27:05 PM: i see it as a form of accepting things we mostly have no control in. she did accept their lot. In places of high poverty I can`t see avoiding suffering that obtainable. not saying thier should be no effort to stop the cause but in the time being accepting it would be the course of action.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 05, 2016, 06:03:06 PM: It is one thing to accept what we cannot change, and another to deliberately torture one's body to achieve a state of bliss. Mother Teresa's thing was that she too money that people donated to her patients and used it to start other missions, rather than on pain pills to alleviate the suffering of her patients, because she felt that their suffering was noble.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on October 05, 2016, 08:58:07 PM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 05, 2016, 01:23:53 PM
The subject of this post is "the value of suffering", because Mother Teresa said that suffering per se had value and was appreciated by God.
I note that no one has seen fit to agree with Mother Teresa about this.
There is a long tradition in several religions regarding suffering as a manner of achieving enlightenment.
I think suffering sucks and should be avoided. Buddha tried suffering in the Forest of Trials

http://manganites.com/buddha/28-in-the-forest-of-trials

Ok....

It is totally impossible to avoid suffering, everyone gets some , so it is not needed to ever cause suffering or accept extra suffering above the unavoidable.

But suffering serves maturity.

The generous give till it hurts , less is not generous so much .

The patient accept frustration rather then harm the greater goal.

The wise are wise by intelligence plus sad experience, without the experience is the intelligence developed?

It is foolish to refuse to accept the discomfort of exercise , it is wrong to avoid a pain that should be shared , it is stingy to force someone else to pay your share, it is stunting to study nothing because less educational diversion is more pleasant.

I can't credit the possibility of a human being that knows no suffering, but if such a person can be found will we find a well rounded mature and respect worthy person?
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 05, 2016, 09:07:02 PM: Discomfort and labor are not things I consider to be suffering.
The kind of suffering I am talking about is deliberate self-torture:self- flogging with metal whips, sitting on a bed of nails, the sort of things that Buddha saw and practiced in the Forest of Trials. See the link to the Life of Buddha manga I posted.

I hate to mow the yard, but if I postpone it too long it becomes harder and the yard looks worse.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on October 05, 2016, 09:13:05 PM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 05, 2016, 09:07:02 PM
Discomfort and labor are not things I consider to be suffering.
The kind of suffering I am talking about is deliberate self-torture:self- flogging with metal whips, sitting on a bed of nails, the sort of things that Buddha saw and practiced in the Forest of Trials. See the link to the Life of Buddha manga I posted.

I hate to mow the yard, but if I postpone it too long it becomes harder and the yard looks worse.

Perhaps Mother Teresa would agree with you.

Did she advocate maximizing suffering for the sake of the suffering itself , or does that exaggerate her position?
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: kimba1 on October 06, 2016, 11:56:46 AM: I just doubt painpills would be of help at the amount of people we're dealing with. But i just thought of this if she actually gave those pills she may lose a good chuck of donations. It's not impossible this would be a turn off.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 06, 2016, 12:35:04 PM: I don't think pain pills (by which I mean aspirin or ibuprofen) work on all classes of human beings.
Mother Teresa claimed that the suffering of theses people was something that God appreciates and perhaps would reward them for enduring.

I disagree that a loving god would take that attitude.

^The Jehovah character in the Bible is not a loving god all that often: Jehovah was a jerk in the way he treated poor Job, for example.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 06, 2016, 12:48:17 PM: A loving God allows people to make choices. That's the point....to chose to follow God, or not. An oppressive God is the one that would coddle you and try to prevent you from doing things that could harm you. That's not love...that's control
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 06, 2016, 01:02:51 PM: Yeah, sure, sirs knows God personally. I am sure you and God talk this over frequently.
Ask God why the hell he thought up giving us the choice to die of malaria or ebola as a way of expressing his love.

Ebola is often spread when a person hugs a dying family member. You show affection, and it turns out to be a death sentence. But, see, God gave you a CHOICE of showing affection.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 06, 2016, 01:19:31 PM: YES, I DO. God does what he does for a purpose far greater than your puny little human brain can deal with
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: kimba1 on October 06, 2016, 01:43:08 PM: That is the the time time ive ever that definition of a oppresive god. Coddling?.? Ironically i know many conservative families who does this with thier kids. To such a degree one kid (15 yrs old)had to use the lotion meant for toddlers to handle shots for teeth extractions. He so sensitive he almost woke up before it was done and was in misery for a few days.

I laughed when i had it done.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 06, 2016, 01:52:59 PM: Exactly Kimba......much like a Government, that wishes to "take care" of its "children", and perhaps even with initially good intentions, will blanket their children in a cocoon of security. And as that blanket gets thicker ("in the name of security, of course), it becomes more and more oppressive

The Christian God is a loving God. To appreciate love, he allows hatred. To appreciate success, he allows failure. To appreciate life, he allows suffering. I'm not here to explain God to anyone. He is what he is. You can believe he is a merciful loving God, or you can choose not to, like xo. That's everyone's choice. But to make the argument that he's not a "loving God", because he allows tragedy & heartbreak, completely misses the point of what a loving God is, and the freedom we have to chose that paths we do, which in turn allows us to greater appreciate all there is to life, than if we were coddled to a point that we never could
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: kimba1 on October 06, 2016, 02:25:14 PM: but the government does what it does from reactions unlike god. when I came to this country we had homeless bodies in the streets every once in awhile. eventually it finally got stopped. we used to live with the term buyer beware. now we got things that rarely breaks. in matters of the government we really should treat it as a work in progress that needs tweeking.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 06, 2016, 03:14:33 PM: What do you suppose was on God's mind when he invented the ebola virus, malaria, guinea worms, river blindness, the Elephant man's disease and cholera? Are we to see plagues and diseases and parasitic critters as acts of divine love?
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 06, 2016, 04:45:17 PM: How many times must it be repeated that your puny little human brain is incapable of grasping why God allows what happens to happen. Nor am I, or anyone obligated to figure that out, for you. ::)
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 06, 2016, 07:11:19 PM: I am simply reminding you that your "god" is a construct of some crazy old desert dwellers long ago.
It is entirely possible that there is some sort of higher intelligence, but the one described in the Bible
does not deserve a high ranking nor is he particularly intelligent.

I mean, Jeez, if he knew that he was going to have to drown the entire fucking planet except for Noah and Co., why did he not do a decent job on the first try at creation?

No "loving god" would invent ghastly diseases like ebola, leprosy and malaria.
The Bible is clearly bogus.
The "Jesus" character invented by Paul was not the same creature that ever lived.

I suggest that we might have been issued a defective deity.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 06, 2016, 07:37:10 PM: And I'm simply reminding you that your puny opinion of my God means squat, as in makes nonsense appear rational.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 06, 2016, 08:14:43 PM: A logical conclusion is never puny, you drooling imbecile.
You are basically saying that it is simply unthinkable to try to make any sense of your core beliefs, and not only that, but no one else has a right to, either.

You are saying that your determination to remain ignorant is preferable to all possible rational thought.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on October 06, 2016, 09:59:08 PM: Quote from: kimba1 on October 06, 2016, 02:25:14 PM
but the government does what it does from reactions unlike god. when I came to this country we had homeless bodies in the streets every once in awhile. eventually it finally got stopped. we used to live with the term buyer beware. now we got things that rarely breaks. in matters of the government we really should treat it as a work in progress that needs tweeking.

This is well said , but I think "Buyer Beware" is still good advice.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 07, 2016, 03:01:48 AM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 06, 2016, 08:14:43 PM
A logical conclusion is never puny, you drooling imbecile.

Your problem is that you keep trying to apply your puny human brain for "logic" in addressing God, who transcends all manner of scientific method, or "logic", you unthinking neanderthal.

Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 06, 2016, 08:14:43 PM
You are basically saying that it is simply unthinkable to try to make any sense of your core beliefs, and not only that, but no one else has a right to, either.

It's not a matter of "making sense", its a matter of faith. You believe, or you don't. And it has SQUAT to do with rights, since you can chose, not to believe.

Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 06, 2016, 08:14:43 PM
You are saying that your determination to remain ignorant is preferable to all possible rational thought.

Not even close. What I'm saying is God is God, as in there's nothing scientific about him, nor the ability for ANY human to comprehend him, much less someone who actively has chosen not to believe, so will concoct whatever atheist rant gets him the biggest bang for his buck. Rational thought is applied to aspects of this reality. Faith, on the other hand, is simply that....faith.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 07, 2016, 09:34:01 AM: There is NOTHING or NO ONE that is not scientific. Just like you are composed of chemical elements. You can deny it all you like, but there is NOTHING that cannot or should not be considered scientifically or logically.

What you are saying is that the field of Theology and Metaphysics should not exist.

Dumber than a sack of rocks.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 07, 2016, 10:20:52 AM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 07, 2016, 09:34:01 AM
There is NOTHING or NO ONE that is not scientific.

Except for God and one's walk of faith. I never claimed theology doesn't exist. I claimed its not confined to the puny understanding of the human brain, with some desperate measure of trying to apply science to them
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 07, 2016, 11:11:30 AM: Science is the way we learn useful facts.
Science is how leprosy was eliminated.
The religious way was to find a toebone or some other relic of a saint and pray to it.
This tended not to result in a cure, and occasionally spread disease.

To say that anything is not a proper subject for scientific study is to say that we prefer to remain ignorant, like people uselessly praying to the body parts of deceased saints.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 07, 2016, 12:12:25 PM: One more time for the ignorant imparied. God supercedes science. I realize why you keep trying to make the connection.....its like trying to argue a point not being made. Since God doesn't have a scientific foundation, ergo, he must not exist. Fine, you can chose not to believe in ANY God. Point being God doesn't have parameters that you can apply science to. So yes, he won't compute into any scientific formulas. That doesn't mean he doesn't exist. It means, as I've been referencing all along, he transcends science, and is FAITH BASED.

And here's the best part.....you're not requird to believe that. Nor is anyone required to prove it to you.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 07, 2016, 12:36:12 PM: What a great steaming CROCK!

"God supercedes science." Bwah hah hah hah hah , <snort!> yuk! Yuk! <giggle!> har de har har.
God does not transcend logic, because NOTHING DOES and NOTHING CAN.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 07, 2016, 01:16:58 PM: Since God does, your puny human opinion is duly noted.....and discarded
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 07, 2016, 02:17:43 PM: No, he doesn't. You are still full of crap, sirs.

If God invented everything, he also invented logic and science as well.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 07, 2016, 02:56:25 PM: Sorry to break this to you, but he does. And now amount of holding your breath and throwing a tantrum changes that
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 07, 2016, 05:06:48 PM: OOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, YES it does!!!
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 07, 2016, 05:11:30 PM: Pound that table some more. Try not to pass out while holding your breath
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on October 07, 2016, 08:40:53 PM: Was it Arthur C Clark who observed that a sufficiently advanced technology would be indistinguishable from magic?

When I was very young the laser was invented , some time later I developed an understanding of how it works.

First I needed to understand the basics of atomic theory and the behavior of electrons and photons, whithout this context I could not have started understanding lasers.

Now if I needed to explain a laser rangefinder to an Afghan herdsman so he could aim the missile I wanted him to shoot , I might leave some details out, just telling him to press this switch then that one, then align this line with these dots on the screen with this knob.

I bet I could get him to the point of practical utility of the rangefinder and arming and firing the missile without his really understanding what was going on.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 07, 2016, 09:22:40 PM: I fail to see the point. There is a logical explanation for lasers. No one runs around claiming that it is futile to apply science to what might seem to be a miracle.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on October 07, 2016, 09:39:24 PM: That is not exactly what you are doing?

Or more precisely the maker of that little film?

He has some of his details right and some not , but more important he is claiming to understand how salvation works.

That is more than anyone ought claim, the mechanism of salvation is explained in the Bible, but not in such detail as a blueprint and schematic of the wires.

If Gods words to us had included more detail, it would have simply become impossible to understand at some level.

We know now a lot more now than then about the causes of disease, but not everything . If God were to visit a doctor and tell him those last few secrets about Cancer perhaps he could be understood. But it would not be possible for God to tell every secret to any one of us , nor any secret we have had insufficient preparation of .

What makes God want to tell us anything at all is one of the biggest mysteries.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 07, 2016, 09:46:29 PM: We know now a lot more now than then about the causes of disease, but not everything . If God were to visit a doctor and tell him those last few secrets about Cancer perhaps he could be understood. But it would not be possible for God to tell every secret to any one of us , nor any secret we have had insufficient preparation of .

What makes God want to tell us anything at all is one of the biggest mysteries.

You mean, considering that Yahweh, as mentioned in the Bible (take the Book of Job, for example) is such a jerk?

If God is omnipotent, that means that he can do ANYTHING, right?
And that means he could explain cancer so a doctor capable of devising a cure could understand it.

Because omnipotent is all powerful, and that excludes NOTHING.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on October 07, 2016, 10:03:50 PM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 07, 2016, 09:46:29 PM

You mean, considering that Yahweh, as mentioned in the Bible (take the Book of Job, for example) is such a jerk?

If God is omnipotent, that means that he can do ANYTHING, right?

Better than that , he IS doing Everything.
Quote
And that means he could explain cancer so a doctor capable of devising a cure could understand it.

Because omnipotent is all powerful, and that excludes NOTHING.
What makes you think he is not doing exactly that?

First bringing into being Doctors who can understand , then allowing them to find the clues.

Pretty recently the Human Genome was sequenced , since then we have deciphered a bit of it and discovered that DNA is not the only way that information is carried between parent and child and we have discovered that Virus and bacteria are in direct communication with our cells. So.. there is another layer of that onion to peel.

It is my opinion that God favors science, allows and encourages it, not because some overgrown monkey needs it to be a better monkey, but because he is in the process of building a transcendent creature.

I don't guess he is halfway done either somewhere far short of halfway, as evidence of this small measure of progress note the poo flinging happening in the political arena. Two monkeys trying to make more poo stick to the other one.

That is how far we have come so far.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 07, 2016, 10:10:26 PM: Better than that , he IS doing Everything.

How is that "better"? If God is doing 'everything', then we have no free will, and we are nothing but meat puppets, and will always do only what God already knows we will do.

If we have free will, then God cannot know what we will do. Maybe I am just an instrument sent to screw around with you and sirs for amusement.

And the whole universe is some sort of cruel hoax.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on October 07, 2016, 10:39:12 PM: I have never understood that attitude.

Even though some pretty educated people hold it as an opinion.

I consider it refuted and simply so.

God will get what he wants in full measure. But whether you participate as his agent or his foil is a choice you can make.

Remember Ester and her Uncle ?

When Ester asked her uncle if she could avoid her task , her uncle told her that she could and God would use someone else to save the people, but that her shirking would cost her .

So Ester worked to undermine Hyman and wound up having a book of the Bible named for herself and a Jewish holiday commemorates the events .

We don't know anything about the guy that had a chance to do these things and said no , leaving Ester to do it.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 07, 2016, 10:59:12 PM: If God already knows what you will do, than that is what you will do. You can have no free will.
Either God is omniscient or you have free will. If God is omniscient you have no free will.
If you have free will, then God is not omniscient.

There are multiple instances in the Bible in which God is angered or amazed or surprised.
This would never happen if he were omniscient. You cannot be surprised after the 20th time you have seen Gilligan try to get off the island and fail.

God would have had to have decided from the very start, that he was going to create the entire ecosystem of Earth, populate it with people, and then at some point, deliberate DROWN them and start over with Noah & Co. And feel so sorry that he did it that he would promise not to drown them again.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on October 08, 2016, 12:13:55 AM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 07, 2016, 10:59:12 PM
If God already knows what you will do, than that is what you will do. You can have no free will.
Either God is omniscient or you have free will. If God is omniscient you have no free will.
If you have free will, then God is not omniscient.

No, this does not follow.

I would bet you have been in this position as a teacher.

Observe a student , who has little interest in the subject , is unwilling to work and does not understand the subject .

Perhaps you will be able to predict his rather low grade with a lot of certainty.

Why did you give him that low grade? What is wrong with you?

You could see that low grade coming, so it is you that is responsible for it.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 08, 2016, 04:05:54 AM: Bingo!
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 08, 2016, 09:35:27 AM: Perhaps you will be able to predict his rather low grade with a lot of certainty.

Why did you give him that low grade? What is wrong with you?

You could see that low grade coming, so it is you that is responsible for it.

==========================================================
I passed out grade summaries every two weeks. Grades were calculated strictly by the numbers: grades on tests, homework and oral participation- which included attendance. I invited students to come to my office if they wished for advice. Some did, most of the failing students did not.

This is a crappy analogy, because I did not create my students. They were NOT a product of my design. God, since he does EVERYTHING, according to you DID create all of us, knowing everything about us in every way from diaper to shroud.

There is no bingo, sirs, You are incapable of Bingo.

Again. if God knows what you will do before you do it, he is the one responsible for creating the mind that you use to make all your decisions, he made the calculator that will say that 1+1=3 and you will; be held accountable for it . If God is omniscient, you are a meat puppet. We are all meat puppets.

If there is a God, He is not the monstrosity the Bible claims, and he cannot be omniscient if we have free will.

AS I said, there are numerous scenes in the Bible in which God predicts the future erroneously, and others in which God seems unaware before an event how it will turn out.

You can find these online if you care to.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 08, 2016, 10:48:45 AM: And once again, thanks for the validation of just how spot on Plane was. I appreciate the validation of the bingo praise 8)
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on October 08, 2016, 07:32:00 PM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 08, 2016, 09:35:27 AM

This is a crappy analogy, because I did not create my students. They were NOT a product of my design. God, since he does EVERYTHING, according to you DID create all of us, knowing everything about us in every way from diaper to shroud.

God did create angels , my understanding may be flawed , but I think of them as creatures of tremendous power ,knowledge and intelligence.

But they are not creatures of freewill.

If he wanted a creature of free will might he not make the likes of us?

Or is an omnipotent God creating a creature of freewill a paradox like creating a rock too heavy for God to lift?
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 08, 2016, 08:02:17 PM: I find your belief in angels quaint. Why would an omnipotent God need helpers? You are surely aware that the usual depictions of an angel would be incapable of flight due to the laws of physics.

But okay, let us say there are angels. But if they did not have free will, then how was it that Lucifer decided to rebel?

Surely an omnipotent and omnibenevolent deity would be able to design a non rebellious angel.

There are supposedly lots and lots of angels, organized in ranks and castes and such, but we have only been informed of several names. Abaddon, Beelzebul, Gabriel, Michael, and Satan. Three are fallen angels and two serve God. I have also heard the name Azuriel. he is the Hebrew angel of death. And there is Metatron, the 'Voice of God'

Gargamel's cat bears his name. Gargamel is the enemy of the Smurfs, and the creator of Smurfette, the only female Smurf.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel

I believe in angels about as much as I believe in Smurfs.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 08, 2016, 08:57:52 PM: Good for you. It's apparent we'll never meet, in any way or existence beyond this puny planet. That's probably a good thing
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 08, 2016, 09:01:45 PM: God will recognize my talents and honesty if he has any sense.
I won't be singing in the Choir Celestial, though.

The idea that God punishes non-believers I find quaint.
My kitty did not acknowledge my existence about 14 hours of the day.
But I fed her anyway.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on October 08, 2016, 09:54:37 PM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 08, 2016, 08:02:17 PM
Why would an omnipotent God need helpers?

Need or want I don't know .

Nor do I know how separate from God they are.

Seeing the problems that God had in dealing directly with Adam and Moses , he might have wanted something smaller and milder to bring word sometimes.

That is just supposing , I would not be surprised to be refuted on that supposition.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 08, 2016, 10:01:53 PM: That is just supposing , I would not be surprised to be refuted on that supposition.

It is a common supposition, Talmudic scholars decided that God's voice was too powerful for human ears, and came up with the Angel Metatron, aka The Voice of God.

If you like speculation stories about angels, the film Dogma is the best ever. It also has George Carlin as a bishop and Chris Rock as the 13th disciple, and God is played by ...better leave it as a surprise. Most religious pictures are not at all funny. Of course this is a HERETICAL religious picture.

Anyway, Lucifer would have to have had free will in order to rebel, else God have to purposefully create Satan, which destroys the idea of omnibenevolence.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 09, 2016, 04:16:05 AM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 08, 2016, 09:01:45 PM
God will recognize my talents and honesty if he has any sense.

God only "recognizes" those (as in accepting them into the kingdom of heaven), who recognize him. so sorry you won't be dining with us apparently. And no, he does't punish non-believers. They simply go to hell
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 09, 2016, 09:02:48 AM: That is what the Bible says.

But I reject the Bible as being any sort of divine thing.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 09, 2016, 11:08:56 AM: Which is why you won't be joining us, obviously
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 09, 2016, 11:49:32 AM: It is not obvious at all. You really should READ the Bible, sirs.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on October 09, 2016, 12:32:07 PM: Is the principal of "omnibenevolence" found in scripture?

I am really not familiar with it.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 09, 2016, 01:36:08 PM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 09, 2016, 11:49:32 AM
It is not obvious at all. You really should READ the Bible, sirs.

I have, which makes it clear, with multiple passages & references, that only those who've accepted Jesus Christ as their savior, get to enter the kingdom of God. And since you've made it painfully clear your choice of not recognizing God as such, you won't be joining us

It doesn't get more obvious than that
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 09, 2016, 03:28:52 PM: Quote from: Plane on October 09, 2016, 12:32:07 PM
Is the principal of "omnibenevolence" found in scripture?

I am really not familiar with it.

It does not appear in the Bible. The idea is that anything and everything that God does in by definition good and morally pure. It is frequently used in philosophy and theology books, but the Roman Catholic Church does not use it. My thesis advisor was a defrocked priest and he used it, usually to accuse Mexican politicians of pretending that they were omnibenevolent.

The Bible does not use the terms omniscience, omnipresent, or omnipotent, either, at least not in the English language Bibles I have read. They are Latin terms, not Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew, so this is understandable.

In Mexico a lot of former Jesuits teach humanities and philosophy courses. All those I know are far better at teaching such things than those I was taught by in the US. I cannot say that this is universal. They all left the Church to get married, by the way.

Wikipedia says this about it.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibenevolence
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 09, 2016, 03:57:23 PM: Actually it does.....multiple times. So sad you've chosen to miss out. Then again, as I mentioned earlier, it's probably a good thing
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 09, 2016, 05:53:24 PM: The concept is perhaps mentioned; the specific word is not.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 09, 2016, 06:22:15 PM: The concept is about a specific as it can get, when you read the Bible.

Boy, this must be really bothering you to spend so much time trying to rebut something that supposedly doesn't pertain to you. Stop worrying about it.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 09, 2016, 08:57:37 PM: Again all I said was that the WORD omnibenevolent does not appear in any English Bible.

And that is true. I defy you to prove otherwise.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: sirs on October 09, 2016, 09:54:21 PM: I never claimed it did
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Plane on October 09, 2016, 10:39:57 PM: Quote from: Xavier_Onassis on October 09, 2016, 03:28:52 PM
Wikipedia says this about it.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibenevolence

I never heard of it except for here.

Is this the principal that God has promised to please everyone?

Cause I don't invest in that.
Title: Re: The value of suffering
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on October 10, 2016, 05:39:05 AM: No, omnibenevolence is the concept that everything and anything that God does is irrefutably good, simply because God did it. In theory, God could kill your children and eat them and it would be an act of goodness. That is a classic example, and the scholars always add that God would never do such a thing, but IF HE DID, The tale of Job is justifiedas a decent, good and moral act by the doctrine of omnibenevolence, The Wikipedia link I sent is pretty accurate.