DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: hnumpah on February 14, 2017, 04:59:28 AM
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Steve Holland and John Walcott | WASHINGTON
President Donald Trump's national security adviser, Michael Flynn, resigned late on Monday after revelations that he had discussed U.S. sanctions on Russia with the Russian ambassador to the United States before Trump took office and misled Vice President Mike Pence about the conversations.
Flynn's resignation came hours after it was reported that the Justice Department had warned the White House weeks ago that Flynn could be vulnerable to blackmail for contacts with Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak before Trump took power on Jan. 20.
Flynn's departure was a sobering development in Trump's young presidency, a 24-day period during which his White House has been repeatedly distracted by miscues and internal dramas.
The departure could slow Trump's bid to warm up relations with Russian President Vladimir Putin.
Flynn submitted his resignation hours after Trump, through a spokesman, pointedly declined to publicly back Flynn, saying he was reviewing the situation and talking to Pence.
Flynn had promised Pence he had not discussed U.S. sanctions with the Russians, but transcripts of intercepted communications, described by U.S. officials, showed that the subject had come up in conversations between him and the Russian ambassador.
Such contacts could potentially be in violation of a law banning private citizens from engaging in foreign policy, known as the Logan Act.
Pence had defended Flynn in television interviews and was described by administration officials as upset about being misled.
"Unfortunately, because of the fast pace of events, I inadvertently briefed the vice president-elect and others with incomplete information regarding my phone calls with the Russian ambassador. I have sincerely apologized to the president and the vice president, and they have accepted my apology," Flynn said in his resignation letter.
Retired General Keith Kellogg, who has been chief of staff of the White House National Security Council, was named the acting national security adviser while Trump determines who should fill the position.
Kellogg, retired General David Petraeus, a former CIA director, and Robert Harward, a former deputy commander of U.S. Central Command, are under consideration for the position, a White House official said. Harward was described by officials as the leading candidate.
A U.S. official confirmed a Washington Post report that Sally Yates, the then-acting U.S. attorney general, told the White House late last month that she believed Flynn had misled them about the nature of his communications with the Russian ambassador.
She said Flynn might have put himself in a compromising position, possibly leaving himself vulnerable to blackmail, the official said. Yates was later fired for opposing Trump's temporary entry ban for people from seven mostly Muslim nations.
CHANGE LESS LIKELY?
A U.S. official, describing the intercepted communications, said Flynn did not make any promises about lifting the sanctions.
But he did indicate that sanctions imposed by President Barack Obama on Russia for its Ukraine incursion "would not necessarily carry over to an administration seeking to improve relations between the U.S. and Russia," the official said.
Flynn, a retired U.S. Army lieutenant general, was an early supporter of Trump and shares his interest in shaking up the establishment in Washington. He frequently raised eyebrows among Washington's foreign policy establishment for trying to persuade Trump to warm up U.S. relations with Russia.
A U.S. official said Flynn's departure, coupled with Russia's aggression in Ukraine and Syria and Republican congressional opposition to removing sanctions on Russia, removes Trump's most ardent advocate of taking a softer line toward Putin.
Flynn's leaving "may make a significant course change less likely, at least any time soon," the official said.
Another official said Flynn's departure may strengthen the hands of some cabinet secretaries, including Defense Secretary Jim Mattis and Secretary of State Rex Tillerson.
However, the second official said, Flynn's exit could also reinforce the power of presidential aides Steve Bannon and Stephen Miller, whom he described as already having the president's ear.
Congressional Democrats expressed alarm at the developments surrounding Flynn and called for a classified briefing by administration officials to explain what had happened.
"We are communicating this request to the Department of Justice and FBI this evening," said Democratic representatives John Conyers of Michigan and Elijah Cummings of Maryland.
U.S. Representative Adam Schiff of California, ranking Democrat on the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, said Flynn's departure does not end the questions over his contacts with the Russians.
"The Trump administration has yet to be forthcoming about who was aware of Flynn's conversations with the ambassador and whether he was acting on the instructions of the president or any other officials, or with their knowledge," Schiff said.
The committee's chairman, Republican Devin Nunes, thanked Flynn for his service.
"Washington D.C. can be a rough town for honorable people, and Flynn — who has always been a soldier, not a politician —deserves America's gratitude and respect," he said.
(Additional reporting by Emily Stephenson; Editing by Peter Cooney, Robert Birsel)
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-flynn-idUSKBN15S0BR
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http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/10/politics/opm-director-resigns-katherine-archuleta/index.html
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An old story and nothing but a link...
Same old tired shit.
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And another!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/shinseki-apologizes-for-va-health-care-scandal/2014/05/30/e605885a-e7f0-11e3-8f90-73e071f3d637_story.html?utm_term=.49e088e09119
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So....how many more to go, H?
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So....how many more to go, H?
And another!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/julia-pierson-resigns-as-secret-service-director/2014/10/01/ea39a396-499f-11e4-891d-713f052086a0_story.html?utm_term=.b79c8da9bc4b
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IIRC, I don't believe H was as giddy with any of the resignations, during the prior 8 years...some of them pretty significant. From Van Jones to Tom Daschle to Bill Richardson to Chas Freeman. I don't recall any Conservatives making a checklist of how many of his nominees or inner had gone "down". And the Right despised what Obama was doing to this country. Then again, perhaps a greater degree of tolerance by some than others
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And another!
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/11/us/politics/sebelius-resigning-as-health-secretary.html?_r=0
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So despite this happens in nearly every administration, to placate the subject matter, and appease H's apparent desire to dump on Trump, it isn't good optics, and it was appropriate Flynn resign. It was premature for his actions, prior to actually holding a position in any administration, and to add on to it, his being less than forthcoming to VP Pense, who was vouching for him. Now we wait to see who next the left will villify to merely being nominated for the now vacated position
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I guess SIRS....
I don't believe hardly anything the globalist/uni-party media says
and I absolutely don't believe the way they "frame" their favorite stories
I actually fear an assassination the most...
the globalist/uni-party have trillions of corrupt money at stake
it will be 365 days a year of attack, attack, attack to try and preserve the status quo
and the globalist have plenty of stooges they will trot out to frame their fake news & fake outrage
so they can keep printing trillions, sending jobs to 3rd world hell-holes, perpetual wars, & screwing the American People
btw - he is just butt-hurt because Trump kicked his ass on election day
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You know what's unfortunate, Tucker Carlson now has his own show, and managed to get guests who think themselves very mainstream or mainstream liberal perhaps, and thru his questioning, demonstrates just how completely unhinged the left has become. Yes, there are radical elements on the right...let's get that disclaimer out of the way....but presently we're being witness to a massive growth of folks on the left who have no interest in democracy or "accepting the results of the election", as Clinton lectured us about
So, on the show the other night IS a middle grade teacher, Yvette Felarca, who proudly supports violent confrontation to anyone she and her throng perceive as fascists....which of course includes Milo. She whole heartedly was so impressed with herself on how she and her other folk "shut him down" at Berkeley. Video shows here and some of her folks literally assaulting a Trump supporter. In her words, they "have no right to speak". That he incites.....(and this is priceless).....he insights in HIS supporters/followers acts of violence. Her violence apparently is justified to stop them before it gets started, despite no actual examples of Milo or Bannon or any of the so-called designated fascists as calling for such violence, or in her words, genocide.
But Tucker's hilighting this overt radical violent-themed hypocrisy wasn't the real trick. He kept pushing her as to "what end", as in how far was she willing to go, to stop such a perceived level of fascist propaganda. She couldn't provide a straight answer outside of her claiming the need to bring about more of her folk to "stop it". You could tell what Tucker was getting at......assasination? Apparently, that was never ruled out.
Who are the Fascists again??
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I am not shocked at President Trump firing a staffer.
Hasn't he been famous for that since years back.
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You know what's unfortunate, Tucker Carlson now has his own show, and managed to get guests who think themselves very mainstream or mainstream liberal perhaps, and thru his questioning, demonstrates just how completely unhinged the left has become.
You are so right SIRS.
I liked Tucker, but he has really impressed me.
Rising star....quite bright....and destroys guests in a "nice" unassuming way
I'm a big fan
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Hasn't he been famous for that since years back.
LOL...You're fired!
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Great interview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1Ntkmb62iA
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Yep, nothing changed. Pity.
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If by nothing has changed you mean that partisans play politics like it is a bloodsport you are indeed correct.
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Be the change you want to see.
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Be nice to know what kind of change, H is looking for. Full on Dump on Trump fest? Leave all differing POV at the door? That'd be a true pity. Inquiring minds and all that
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Thought I might get some actual comments or discussion of Flynn's resignation, firing, whichever way they want to spin it. All I saw was the same old recycled crap...Obama blah blah blah...Clinton blah blah blah...'S okay, you all keep pissing and moaning the same old line. There's a lot going on out there right NOW, but if you have no interest in discussing it, so be it. I'm guessing now X is gone and it's just the good ol' boys, that's good enough for you.
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That's funny....I thought we were talking about Flynn's resignation. But as soon as it was noted that its really no different than other resignations, under other administrations, all of a sudden its the "same old $#!^? Really?
What else would you like to discuss about it? Trump accepted his resignation, as he should have. While others I know actually believe he was within his legal right to do what he did, I disagree...he wasn't yet part of any administration, and a private person is not at liberty to be discussing sanctions, he may be privy to, with another country's Government
What intrigues me though, is your title....."1 down"....as if inferring that you're expecting, perhaps even looking forward to more "going down". Is that more of a discussion, you're hoping to have?
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Yes X seems to be gone.
I am sorry guys , but I agree with you guys too often to be much of a debater.
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Yes X seems to be gone.
And I am sure it is a total coincidence that XO bailed and hasn't come back as the election days were coming to an end and Trump became President!
For someone that repeatedly claimed "Trump would never be President"....lol...that must be hard to swallow.
If Hillary had crushed Trump....XO and other poor losers would be here!
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....In spades....rubbing it in
What I don't get is H. He's generally pretty level headed, usually objective, able to bash both parties pretty accurately. Why he thinks this is some sort of "good 'ol boys" club defies logic. It also defies logic that when he decides to rant on the latest Trump issue, he then takes exception to when its been shown to happen in pretty much every other administration. I just don't get it
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....In spades....rubbing it in
What I don't get is H. He's generally pretty level headed, usually objective, able to bash both parties pretty accurately. Why he thinks this is some sort of "good 'ol boys" club defies logic. It also defies logic that when he decides to rant on the latest Trump issue, he then takes exception to when its been shown to happen in pretty much every other administration. I just don't get it
I see your point , but an unfortunate thing has indeed happened , however we see the cause we are now too few and too alike.
Kimba is more different but not different enough to be the opposite all the time.
XO deserves some gratitude for representing a seriously different POV including when the tide was going the other way.
I like you guys and I know I can learn things from you , but I can't learn what the opposite sort of thinking is like here anymore.
Facebook is suffering the same way as people "unfriend " irritants.
This could get worse and cause a nationwide gulf between people who more and more cannot speak each others language.
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...I like you guys and I know I can learn things from you , but I can't learn what the opposite sort of thinking is like here anymore....
Why do you think that is?
I come in with a post about Flynn. Sure, I was happy he left. But instead of getting an actual discussion about Flynn, I get a bunch of links to old stories meant to show, hey, it happened to so-and-so during Obama's watch, blah blah blah - but nothing about Flynn himself. Was what happened to him right or wrong? Should he have been more honest and open about what happened? Should he have been fired? Was his explanation satisfactory?
Instead - links to old stories. It's the Trumpy fallback position, run around in circles yelling "Obama!", "Clinton!", whatever comes to mind to deflect from the subject at hand. That's why I haven't been back to discuss the Russian ties, Sessions, or the latest full retard tweet fest about being wiretapped - why bother?
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I learn from hearing bothsides but I`m definately do not have a preference. but I do have opinion on why it`s becoming singular in view here. I stated conservatives are more likely to sit down have a meal with anyone. but the liberals have gone so extreme they behave like the stereotype enemy they revile. having a dialog is not in thier wheelhouse anymore. xo gives me perspective that at times surprises me . he will be missed.
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...I like you guys and I know I can learn things from you , but I can't learn what the opposite sort of thinking is like here anymore....
Why do you think that is?
I come in with a post about Flynn. Sure, I was happy he left. But instead of getting an actual discussion about Flynn, I get a bunch of links to old stories meant to show, hey, it happened to so-and-so during Obama's watch, blah blah blah - but nothing about Flynn himself. .....That's why I haven't been back to discuss the Russian ties, Sessions, or the latest full retard tweet fest about being wiretapped - why bother?
Because its informative. That's why bother. Trump's tweeting on this wiretapping is ridiculous. If he suspects something, just send a memo to the FBI. There probably is something there, but simply throwing out an accusation where there's no evidence is much like..... claiming the Russians were in cahoots with the Trump administration during the the elections. But somehow you think that not sticking to Flynn is tantamount to not wanting to discuss the issues?? oy vey. That's weak, H.
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..... So what else would you like to talk about Flynn?
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SIRS...this is nothing but a war between the People and the Deep State...and Flynn was an early victim of this crime.
(https://s21.postimg.org/mdauxj83r/US_News.jpg)
NSA Whistleblower Backs Trump Up on Wiretap Claims
Bill Binney, who resigned from NSA in 2001, did not elaborate on President Obama?s specific role in surveilling Trump.
By Curt Mills, Staff Writer
March 7, 2017
A veteran of the NSA has said President Donald Trump is righ to claim he was wiretapped and monitored. (ALEX WONG/GETTY IMAGES)
President Donald Trump is "absolutely right" to claim he was wiretapped and monitored, a former NSA official claimed Monday, adding that the administration risks falling victim to further leaks if it continues to run afoul of the intelligence community.
"I think the president is absolutely right. His phone calls, everything he did electronically, was being monitored," Bill Binney, a 36-year veteran of the National Security Agency who resigned in protest from the organization in 2001, told Fox Business on Monday. Everyone's conversations are being monitored and stored, Binney said.
Binney resigned from NSA shortly after the U.S. approach to intelligence changed following the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. He "became a whistleblower after discovering that elements of a data-monitoring program he had helped develop -- nicknamed ThinThread -- were being used to spy on Americans," PBS reported.
On Monday he came to the defense of the president, whose allegations on social media over the weekend that outgoing President Barack Obama tapped his phones during the 2016 campaign have rankled Washington.
"How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!" Trump tweeted.
"Is it legal for a sitting President to be 'wire tapping' a race for president prior to an election? Turned down by court earlier. A NEW LOW!... I'd bet a good lawyer could make a great case out of the fact that President Obama was tapping my phones in October, just prior to Election!," he continued.
Binney seemed to go further than the assessment of former Attorney General Michael Mukasey, a George W. Bush administration official, who offered a tacit defense of Trump to ABC on Sunday.
"This is the difference between being correct and right," Mukasey said. "The president was not correct in saying President Obama ordered a tap on a server in Trump Tower. However, I think he's right in that there was surveillance and that it was conducted at the behest of the attorney general at the Justice Department through the FISA court."
But Binney told Sean Hannity's radio show earlier Monday, "I think the FISA court's basically totally irrelevant."
The judges on the FISA court are "not even concerned, nor are they involved in any way with the Executive Order 12333 collection," Binney said during the radio interview. "That's all done outside of the courts. And outside of the Congress."
Binney told Fox the laws that fall under the FISA court's jurisdiction are "simply out there for show" and "trying to show that the government is following the law, and being looked at and overseen by the Senate and House intelligence committees and the courts."
"That's not the main collection program for NSA," Binney said.
What Binney did not delve into, however, was if President Obama directed surveillance on Trump for political purposes during the campaign, a core accusation of Trump's. But Binney did say events such as publication of details of private calls between President Trump and the Australian prime minister, as well as with the Mexican president, are evidence the intelligence community is playing hardball with the White House.
"I think that's what happened here," Binney told Fox. "The evidence of the conversation of the president of the U.S., President Trump, and the [prime minister] of Australia and the president of Mexico. Releasing those conversations. Those are conversations that are picked up by the FAIRVIEW program, primarily, by NSA."
https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2017-03-07/nsa-whistleblower-bill-binney-says-trump-is-absolutely-right-about-wiretap-claims
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Flynn may have been a "victim", but unlike Sessions, who had a perfectly legal postition, as a senator, to dialog with any Ambassador, including the Russian Ambassador, Flynn was still a private citizen when he was speaking to the Russian Government. Doesn't matter he was going to be part of a Trump Administration. He wasn't being up front, and kind of hung Pense out to dry, when he defended Flynn's original position, that he had absolutely no contact.
In whatever effort he felt obligated to faciltate possible actions to lessen the tension between the U.S. & Russia, he messed up, and appropriately tendered his resignation.
The Sessions' molehill is nothing but a molehill, and showcasing Democrats acting utterly desperate.
The wiretapping tweet was a ridiculous tactic, and diminishes that great joint congress speech he gave last week.
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The wiretapping tweet was a ridiculous tactic
We can agree to disagree.
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Doesn't it matter a lot what might have been said by Flynn and whoever else?
If there was a discussion of weather and grandchildren then who cares?
If a quid pro quo was offered and accepted such that malfeasance and improper use of federal power was promised in return for behind the scenes assistance in political skullduggery who could be accepting?
I think an inconsequential blather is far more likely than a smoking gun. This was recorded and the record could be available to the press if it were really sexy.
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blah blah blah -
Well Ok...
I do respect your ability.
Gotta suggestion?
I think that help combing the internet for pertinent and interesting sources is a real service.
Of Flynn himself I do not know enough about him yet, his willingness to retire instead of being an impediment seems a good thing , but if the reason was to escape the situation in which he was much at fault , I would not know the difference at this point.
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The wiretapping tweet was a ridiculous tactic
We can agree to disagree.
Cu4, with all due respect....it's an allegation....of a former President, with not a shred of any evidence to support it. We're appropriately giving substantial grief to the Dems for trying to allege some intimate collusion between Trump & the Russians, with the elections, without a shred of proof. Why would we not hold ourselves to the same standard??
Now, I wouldn't put it past the Democrats and Obama to have pulled such a felonious stunt, but tweeting the accusation was childish. He won the election, its done with it. Why bring this up?...in a tweet no less?? Send a memo of concern to the FBI, and if they find something, THEN tweet it,... with fanfare even.
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Because its informative. That's why bother.
Really? I get several dozen news feeds a day, from AP, CNN, Fox, NY Times, Washington Post, WSJ, AFP, BBC, CBC, online editions of papers from around the world, and other websites. Informative, to me, is hearing - well, actually seeing - what folks here think themselves. I figured why not, give it a shot, see if we might get some discussions going. Maybe, just maybe, even attract some new posters, get some fresh blood into the group. Well, apparently the topic attracted readers, but no one stuck around, perhaps as disappointed as I was.
..... So what else would you like to talk about Flynn?
Sorry, old news.
Flynn may have been a "victim", but unlike Sessions, who had a perfectly legal postition, as a senator, to dialog with any Ambassador, including the Russian Ambassador, Flynn was still a private citizen when he was speaking to the Russian Government. Doesn't matter he was going to be part of a Trump Administration. He wasn't being up front, and kind of hung Pense out to dry, when he defended Flynn's original position, that he had absolutely no contact.
In whatever effort he felt obligated to faciltate possible actions to lessen the tension between the U.S. & Russia, he messed up, and appropriately tendered his resignation.
The Sessions' molehill is nothing but a molehill, and showcasing Democrats acting utterly desperate.
The wiretapping tweet was a ridiculous tactic, and diminishes that great joint congress speech he gave last week.
The problem with Sessions isn't that he had contact with the Russian ambassador, or that it was legal to do so. It is that he lied, or at a minimum tried to cover up the fact that he had such contact, under oath. Bubba had every legal right to get a blowjob in the Oval Office, the crime was lying about it under oath.
Cu4, with all due respect....it's an allegation....of a former President, with not a shred of any evidence to support it. We're appropriately giving substantial grief to the Dems for trying to allege some intimate collusion between Trump & the Russians, with the elections, without a shred of proof. Why would we not hold ourselves to the same standard??
Now, I wouldn't put it past the Democrats and Obama to have pulled such a felonious stunt, but tweeting the accusation was childish. He won the election, its done with it. Why bring this up?...in a tweet no less?? Send a memo of concern to the FBI, and if they find something, THEN tweet it,... with fanfare even.
Obama did not begin most of these programs. Some had their beginnings before Bush - in fact, some have been plodding along for decades. But they took off after 9/11 under Bush, when Americans clamored for security at all costs and were willing to trade their freedoms for it. Remember the Patriot Act everyone wanted to 'protect' them? Those of us who tried to warn against it then were shouted down and ignored.
I worked at the National Security Agency in the late 70's and early 80's. I had a pretty good perspective what their monitoring capabilities were then, and with a tech background it wasn't difficult to see what was coming if it wasn't kept in check. It wasn't. As personal computers, cell phones, 'smart' phones and 'smart' technology has grown, so has the government's ability to use our own tech to gather information - on us. And if they can, so can anyone else with the tech skills, and inevitably, if anyone can, someone will.
Now, here's what may be hard for some to swallow - Obama, nor anyone at DOJ, FBI, CIA, whatever, needed to order any kind of taps or monitoring. If telephones, emails, any sort of electronic transmission at all was used, more than likely the recording was automatic. All that was required was someone to dig up the relevant data (from the vast amount collected each day on everyone) and leak it. Anyone with access might have done it, and that number runs into the thousands of NSA, CIA or other government employees or contractors. Remember Snowden? So you, or Trump, can yell 'Obama' all you want, but you are overlooking the much greater possibility - and danger - it was someone else.
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Discussion is far more difficult when 1 side, hightails it with the 1st sign of disagreement. But at least you're making an effort here, so that's a good start
We all generally subscribe to the same news feeds, H. What I referred to here as "informative" is precisely what you referenced, different thought processing under the same situation/scenario. How it might influence my thought processing. We all love the idea of new blood....doesn't help when you erroneously proclaim to any would be prospects that that this is some good ol boys club, when we all can disagree
No, Sessions didn't lie....he simply wasn't as clear as he could have been. As I said, a molehill of a molehill. A lie to me is an overt attempt to deceive. So, Sessions either is the dumbest AG since......Lynch, with how easily it was shown that not just he, but nearly every other congress critter has met with the Russian Ambassador, or he simply wasn't clear in that he never met with the Russians to discuss the campaign. If you want to call it a lie, fine, that's your perrogative. I'm not on any type of witch hunt to try and shoot down every one of Trump's cabinet picks, with some verbal technicality.
And your points on not requiring some official order on a wire tap, is absolutely valid....I've heard numerous folks connected with the NSA or FBI echoing the same thing. So, Obama can "truthfully" say he gave no such order....doesn't mean it wasn't done. But at the same times, doesn't justify some ridiculous accusatory tweet, minus any evidence to the accusation
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.....................................
Obama did not begin most of these programs. Some had their beginnings before Bush - in fact, some have been plodding along for decades. But they took off after 9/11 under Bush, when Americans clamored for security at all costs and were willing to trade their freedoms for it. Remember the Patriot Act everyone wanted to 'protect' them? Those of us who tried to warn against it then were shouted down and ignored.
I worked at the National Security Agency in the late 70's and early 80's. I had a pretty good perspective what their monitoring capabilities were then, and with a tech background it wasn't difficult to see what was coming if it wasn't kept in check. It wasn't. As personal computers, cell phones, 'smart' phones and 'smart' technology has grown, so has the government's ability to use our own tech to gather information - on us. And if they can, so can anyone else with the tech skills, and inevitably, if anyone can, someone will.
Now, here's what may be hard for some to swallow - Obama, nor anyone at DOJ, FBI, CIA, whatever, needed to order any kind of taps or monitoring. If telephones, emails, any sort of electronic transmission at all was used, more than likely the recording was automatic. All that was required was someone to dig up the relevant data (from the vast amount collected each day on everyone) and leak it. Anyone with access might have done it, and that number runs into the thousands of NSA, CIA or other government employees or contractors. Remember Snowden? So you, or Trump, can yell 'Obama' all you want, but you are overlooking the much greater possibility - and danger - it was someone else.
That is a point , the information could have been collected in what is now normal surveillance of Ambassadors and Embassy staff.
So who collects edits and makes use of such information?
It seems that this was not important to publish earlier than November, when it might have had effect on election.
Releasing it now is more like distraction.
So who does this sort of leaking and why?