DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: _JS on April 24, 2007, 11:15:51 AM
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Building off of the creationist debate in Plane's thread, I am curious about some things as I am also a Christian.
1. Why does it matter if evolution is true?
2. Why does it matter if people are born with a sexual attraction towards the same gender (that obviously develops in later years)?
3. Does it matter to you that Peter wrote 1 and 2 Peter and John wrote 1, 2, and 3 John or is it acceptable that perhaps 2 Peter and 3 John were written by others?
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1. Why does it matter if evolution is true?
It doesn't to me.
2. Why does it matter if people are born with a sexual attraction towards the same gender (that obviously develops in later years)?
It doesn't to me. At the same time i don't see why the definition of marriage needs to change. Civil Union works for me.
Question 3 i have no idea what you are talking about.
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_JS:
3. Does it matter to you that Peter wrote 1 and 2 Peter and John wrote 1, 2, and 3 John or is it acceptable that perhaps 2 Peter and 3 John were written by others?
BT:
Question 3 i have no idea what you are talking about.
Probably refers to the debate among religious scholars as to the actual authorship of the books in question, based on differences in style, et cetera. Some folks believe that Peter himself actually wrote Peter 1 and 2, and that John himself actually wrote John 1, 2 and 3; others believe that disciples of these men actually wrote the books, either under their direction or, perhaps, even some time after they had died.
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Building off of the creationist debate in Plane's thread, I am curious about some things as I am also a Christian.
1. Why does it matter if evolution is true?
2. Why does it matter if people are born with a sexual attraction towards the same gender (that obviously develops in later years)?
3. Does it matter to you that Peter wrote 1 and 2 Peter and John wrote 1, 2, and 3 John or is it acceptable that perhaps 2 Peter and 3 John were written by others?
1. Unless one is involved in science, or is a scholar, I suppose it doesn't, outside of the scope of the debate re: the public educaiton system. It speaks to the boredom of the world that the "creation debate is going global".
2. It doesn't. I don't care, anyway.
3. Biblical scholars do have interesting theories regarding this, though I've not enough knowledge to speak about it with any confidence.
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I guess I somewhat geared these questions more towards those who are also Christians, but as you all have answered I think anyone could answer them (except possibly the last one which wouldn't matter much to non-Christians).
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The "truth" of evolution (though it's really a prevailing theory or paradigm, rightfully subject to good faith reexamination as any scientific theory is), to me, becomes a question of worldview (of philosophy or, most correctly, I suggest, epistemology: the study of knowledge). And the choice of a worldview and the method of approaching the world, to some significant degree, is utilitarian: what method yields the most useful information for us and provides the thought structure to actually use that knowledge?
There's nothing wrong with being gay either genetically or by choice or by environmental influences. In each case, to me, it's simply a fact of life.
Authorship of books of the Bible, despite traditional attribution, is unknown. As a general proposition going beyond that fact, the Bible is written by humans with divine inspiration being a matter, to me, of the "myth of the canon," or some equally appropriate designation. God, an elusive concept though reified in the Christian tradition, for example, specifically as to the writing of the Bible, let's say, may have been the product of the scribes' deep meditation, for example, opening a pathway of consciousness, for example, that began to approximate the notion people had in mind when speaking God's name.
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I guess I somewhat geared these questions more towards those who are also Christians...
Used to be one, was a deacon, planning to go to the seminary to become a minister. I grew out of it.
...I think anyone could answer them (except possibly the last one which wouldn't matter much to non-Christians).
In the April 9 issue of US News and World Report, there was an interesting article about America's 'religious illiteracy', "In America, An F In Religion", by Stephen Prothero. It mainly addresses Americans ignorance of religions other than their own - mainly Christianity - and how that leads to misunderstanding and mistrust of others. Unfortunately, many Americans are also ignorant of their own religion, and don't bother to do much more than show up in church once a week (if that) and repeat, as if by rote, whatever the church leaders tell them. Interpretations that disagree with their particular sect's dogma are generally ignored, along with aything else that does not support their church leaders' agenda. Events in the Bible are not presented in the context of the history of the time, and errors and inaccuracies are glossed over or ignored.
In reference to your question about evolution, I was once informed by a minister that it was all a farce - all the fossil evidence, the dating, all the astronomical observations that showed the universe was billions of years old, every bit of it, according to him, was all 'planted' evidence, put there by God to mislead and confuse the nonbelievers, because the Biblical account was absolutely accurate and all of creation was only a bit over 6,000 years old. My next question was how could he believe in a god that would, in effect, lie to his own people to cause them to doubt him, and thus go to hell? I never got an answer to that one. Some benevolent god he believed in.
The answer is, basically it doesn't matter, except to the folks who are intent on proving evolution is wrong to preserve their own view that the Biblical version is the absolute truth. They are obviously not historians, scientists, or mathematicians.
As for the sexual attraction question, again, that only matters to the folks who believe it is against their religion. My question to you is, what makes you think it 'obviously develops in later years'?
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hnumpah, I think that part of that stems from some very anti-intellectual tendencies found in certain sects of Christianity. That is an interesting topic actually.
In recent years I have been astonished at what some Christians believe about Islam and Muslims. Much of it comes from a lack of knowledge.
My question to you is, what makes you think it 'obviously develops in later years'?
By that I meant around puberty, or at least when sexual feelings begin to be noticed by the individual.
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By that I meant around puberty, or at least when sexual feelings begin to be noticed by the individual.
Then the question doesn't really make sense:
2. Why does it matter if people are born with a sexual attraction towards the same gender (that obviously develops in later years)?
Why would they have a sexual attraction towards anyone, same gender or not, before they even start having sexual feelings at all?
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I guess I somewhat geared these questions more towards those who are also Christians, but as you all have answered I think anyone could answer them (except possibly the last one which wouldn't matter much to non-Christians).
Ahhh, I disagree. I find myths highly entertaining, and appreciate biblical scholarship(most likely, more than any christian).
hnumpah, I think that part of that stems from some very anti-intellectual tendencies found in certain sects of Christianity. That is an interesting topic actually.
On a whole, most western religions demand unquestioning obedience. Certainly the Jewish faith allows questions, and encourage it, and they have demonstrated that courage throughout history; but even they will excommunicate anyone who pushes the envelope(Spinoza) too far. So then it becomes a matter of belief at the expense of reality and objective truth; and so I offer the following quotes, as the authors have far more confidence than I on this topic:
Ingersoll:
They say the religion of your fathers is good enough. Why should a father object to your inventing a better plow than he had? They say to me, do you know more than all the theologians dead? Being a perfectly modest man I say I think I do. Now we have come to the conclusion that every man has a right to think. Would God give a bird wings and make it a crime to fly? Would he give me brains and make it a crime to think? Any God that would damn one of his children for the expression of his honest thought wouldn't make a decent thief. When I read a book and don't believe it, I ought to say so. I will do so and take the consequences like a man.
I do not regard religious opinions or political opinions as exotics that have to be kept under glass, protected from the frosts of common sense or the tyrannous north wind of logic. Such plants are hardly worth preserving. They certainly ought to be hardy enough to stand the climate of free discussion, and if they cannot, the sooner they die the better.
Steve Allen:
The problem is that once the untrained mind has made a formal commitment to a religious philosophy -- and it does not matter whether that philosophy is generally reasonable and high-minded or utterly bizarre and irrational -- the powers of reason are suprisingly ineffective in changing the believer's mind.
...and no philosophy, sadly, has all the answers. No matter how assured
we may be about certain aspects of our belief, there are always painful
inconsistencies, exceptions, and contradictions. This is true in
religion as it is in politics, and is self-evident to all except
fanatics and the naive. As for the fanatics, whose number is legion in
our own time, we might be advised to leave them to heaven. They will
not, unfortunately, do us the same courtesy. They attack us and each
other, and whatever their protestations to peaceful intent, the bloody
record of history makes clear that they are easily disposed to resort to
the sword. My own belief in God, then, is just that -- a matter of
belief, not knowledge. My respect for Jesus Christ arises from the fact
that He seems to have been the most virtuous inhabitant of Planet Earth.
But even well-educated Christians are frustrated in their thirst for
certainty about the beloved figure of Jesus because of the undeniable
ambiguity of the scriptural record. Such ambiguity is not apparent to
children or fanatics, but every recognized Bible scholar is perfectly
aware of it. Some Christians, alas, resort to formal lying to obscure
such reality.
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1. Why does it matter if evolution is true?
it matters as something to know ,like creation
we should not think of it emotionally no more than that.
2. Why does it matter if people are born with a sexual attraction towards the same gender (that obviously develops in later years)?
well attraction in general develops in later years.
and what matter is how we deal with it.
why do we treat sterile people better than gay people?
gay people are way more productive in society than hetero.
3. Does it matter to you that Peter wrote 1 and 2 Peter and John wrote 1, 2, and 3 John or is it acceptable that perhaps 2 Peter and 3 John were written by others?
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oops
push the button too soon
i got no idea how to answer 3
but that`s no biggie
I learned will visiting west virginia alot of christians don`t read the bible at all.
they get all their info straight from the pastor only.
reading the bible is not required to alot of christians.
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gay people are way more productive in society than hetero.
Depends on your definition of "productive."
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From the USN&WR website:
Q&A: What Americans Don't Know About Religion Could Fill a Book
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070308/8prothero.htm
I couldn't find the article I was looking for; apparently it hasn't been archived yet. This one gives some of the same information, though.
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Depends on your definition of "productive.">
most are more likely have jobs and pay their taxes and involved with their community.
gays are generally fiscal conservatives.
ex. log cabin republicans
one of the cleanest and most thriving community in san francisco is the castro.
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Building off of the creationist debate in Plane's thread, I am curious about some things as I am also a Christian.
1. Why does it matter if evolution is true?
Not much , the stakes are very low on both sides , if it were not perceived as a contradiction of scripture both sides would forget about it.
2. Why does it matter if people are born with a sexual attraction towards the same gender (that obviously develops in later years)?
That is a large assumption to make. Why would God discourage something that a person was helpless to affect? You might conside tenancy's twards all and any crime as indwelling human nature , theft , violence , whatever why is homosexuality diffrent? I didn't make the top ten things God forbad it may be that it is secondary in scripture, but in human estimation it is more important .
3. Does it matter to you that Peter wrote 1 and 2 Peter and John wrote 1, 2, and 3 John or is it acceptable that perhaps 2 Peter and 3 John were written by others?
If the word of God is the word of God then the authors can be anonymous , God has the power to protect his word .
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most are more likely have jobs and pay their taxes and involved with their community.
I'd like to see the stats to back this one up.
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don`t need stats
I got the castro district in san francisco as my proof
also i believe their is even a whole town that is mostly gay(fairfield i think)
the local folks don`t mind them at all since they bring the property value up and unlike other minorities no crime.
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the local folks don`t mind them at all since they bring the property value up and unlike other minorities no crime.
They bring property values up because, in most cases, they are two income families with no kids - so they have a high amount of discretionary money.
Doesn't support your contention that unemployment is lower.
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1. Why does it matter if evolution is true?
It doesn't matter. My family and my church saw no discord between evolution and Scripture.
2. Why does it matter if people are born with a sexual attraction towards the same gender (that obviously develops in later years)?
It doesn't.
3. Does it matter to you that Peter wrote 1 and 2 Peter and John wrote 1, 2, and 3 John or is it acceptable that perhaps 2 Peter and 3 John were written by others?
No, it doesn't matter. What matters is what is said and what actions one takes after reading. That is kind of why it doesn't matter if evolution happened or not. We're here now; how we act is much more important than dredging up some old quarrel about what or who we're descended from.
Hard to believe that people really think God would "salt" the earth with dino bones, just to test the faith of believers?
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It doesn't seem that many of these issues matter, even to the more fundamentalist-minded who took time to reply.
I'm a bit surprised really.
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I'm a bit surprised really.
Why?
Most folks are pretty laid back about their beliefs in these areas. It is only the very vocal minority, on both sides, that want to make a big fuss about them.
Anyone seen Brass lately?
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It doesn't seem that many of these issues matter, even to the more fundamentalist-minded who took time to reply.
I'm a bit surprised really.
You feel free to have hot argument when the stakes are low.
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Most folks are pretty laid back about their beliefs in these areas. It is only the very vocal minority, on both sides, that want to make a big fuss about them.
Is it that they are laid back or don't want to discuss their beliefs?
You feel free to have hot argument when the stakes are low.
On the contrary Plane, I rather enjoy theological discussions and they need not necessarily be nasty.
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is it ok to talk about the tower a babylon here or should we go to body?
I`m ok either way
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Is it that they are laid back or don't want to discuss their beliefs?
May be a combination of the two. Or that they really have no idea what they believe.
If you want to see a crowd at just about any church, your best bet is to go at Christmas or Easter. The rest of the time, you'll see a lot of empty seats and a few hardcore members who are there every Sunday (or Saturday). Most of those, I'd bet, rarely read and really study the Bible on their own; the simply go and let the minister spoon feed them his/the church's version of the text and their interpretation of it. I've talked to people who really have no idea what their church believes about some issues, because although they are members and believe they are devout (whatever), they have never taken the time and effort to see what their religion really believes. They probably know the basics, the stuff they hear every Sunday (or however often they manage to go), but that's about it. That's the stuff Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Pentecostals, et cetera, all agree on; ask them what the differences are, and odds are they can't name any, or at most one or two. Then you have the different sects within the sects - why did this group break away from that one? What did they differ on? Was it a major theological difference, or a minor point?
Some Baptists believe all alcohol consumption is a sin, and will only use grape juice for communion.
Some believe wine is okay for communion, but that all other alcohol consumption is a sin.
Some believe moderate consumption is okay.
I mentioned I asked questions of ministers; I asked one hardcore Baptist once if alcohol was a sin, why would Jesus turn the water to wine at the wedding party? The answer I got was that wine, in Biblical times, was no more than mere grape juice. My next question was how Aaron's sons got drunk on 'mere grape juice' and defiled the temple, causing God to strike them dead? Silence.
Ministers are good at making up crap to support their point of view. That's why I'm not overly impressed by folks who only know what they have been spoonfed in church. I have a lot more respect for someone who has actually taken the time and effort to study the Bible and find out things on their own.
I had a Jehovah's Witnesses couple show up at my door one day, and I was in a sporting mood, so I let them in. After two hours of my asking them about the finer points of their religion, and explaining them to them when they couldn't answer, they left with a couple of pages of notes on things to ask their elders. I've never had Jehovah's Witnesses knock on my door again - I imagine the elders gave all their missionaries a warning not to come to my house anymore because I would corrupt them.
See, I spent several years going to different churches, trying to find one where I fit in. I listened to the sermons, checked out the finer points of their doctrine, and really learned quite a bit about the differences between the denominations. When I finally found one where I felt I fit in, I eventually became a deacon, and actually was making plans to go to the theological school at Vanderbilt University, with plans to become a minister.
That, though, was many years ago. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then.
I'm pretty low-key about my beliefs, or lack of them. I don't feel it is incumbent upon me to impose them on others, and I appreciate the same in return. I'm not going to rant about how wrong you are to believe in a god you can't prove exists, because I figure if it makes you feel better about yourself and life in general, then have at it. If it eases the burden of this life on you to believe there is some higher power, some divine reason why things happen the way they do, then more power to you. See, I don't have the same problem theists do; I'm not worried that I have to convert you to believe the same way I do, because if I don't, you're going to burn in hell for eternity. To me, it doesn't matter what you believe, because we're all destined for the same fate when we die anyway: worm food.
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is it ok to talk about the tower a babylon here or should we go to body?
I`m ok either way
Go for it. If anyone is offended by religion, they shouldn't be in a thread titled Faith and Science.
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is it ok to talk about the tower a babylon here or should we go to body?
I`m ok either way
Go for it. If anyone is offended by religion, they shouldn't be in a thread titled Faith and Science.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator
http://members.aol.com/beanstalkr/project/
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2003/02/57536
http://www.strangehorizons.com/2006/20061113/perrin-c.shtml
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The con ventional view is that the tower is the historical hanging garden of Babilon or that it is alligorical entirely.
Could we possibly have been mistakeing a prophecy for history all these years?
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actually you bet me to it
the space elevator was what I was heading to
I`m still amazrd we`re actually thinking of making it
I truely thought it would be a few more decades before we hit this stage now.
we now have commercial space flight.
I wonder will I see lunar colonies.
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If you want to see a crowd at just about any church, your best bet is to go at Christmas or Easter. The rest of the time, you'll see a lot of empty seats and a few hardcore members who are there every Sunday (or Saturday). Most of those, I'd bet, rarely read and really study the Bible on their own; the simply go and let the minister spoon feed them his/the church's version of the text and their interpretation of it. I've talked to people who really have no idea what their church believes about some issues, because although they are members and believe they are devout (whatever), they have never taken the time and effort to see what their religion really believes.
But isn't that the problem with sola scriptura, sola fide, and other concepts that allowed a multiplicity of Christianity into thousands of faiths with a wide disparity of beliefs?
I mentioned I asked questions of ministers; I asked one hardcore Baptist once if alcohol was a sin, why would Jesus turn the water to wine at the wedding party? The answer I got was that wine, in Biblical times, was no more than mere grape juice. My next question was how Aaron's sons got drunk on 'mere grape juice' and defiled the temple, causing God to strike them dead? Silence.
I never understood that one either.
Ministers are good at making up crap to support their point of view. That's why I'm not overly impressed by folks who only know what they have been spoonfed in church. I have a lot more respect for someone who has actually taken the time and effort to study the Bible and find out things on their own.
Agreed, but that does not make me desire to be an atheist. Indeed, that does not make them less Christian. Ignorance is certainly sad and correctable, but not necessarily unpardonable.
See, I spent several years going to different churches, trying to find one where I fit in. I listened to the sermons, checked out the finer points of their doctrine, and really learned quite a bit about the differences between the denominations. When I finally found one where I felt I fit in, I eventually became a deacon, and actually was making plans to go to the theological school at Vanderbilt University, with plans to become a minister.
A spiritual journey is a positive experience I think, when handled properly by the individual.
I don't feel it is incumbent upon me to impose them on others, and I appreciate the same in return.
I don't wish to impose my views on others either.
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The "hands off religion" orientation (or the "live and let live" approach) is both a polite and wise way to handle personal relations. The trouble is, as we're seeing now with fundamentalist Christianity in the United States, and, for example, with Roman Catholicism through a great portion of the history of Europe, religion melds with or intrudes upon the public realm in arguably noxious, imperious ways such that religion itself becomes a player in the struggles of the polity, and a target.
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Knowing that evolution is a more plausible reason than 'creationism' is better for the same reason that knowing that the Earth revolves around the Sun and not vice-versa. Knowing true facts is always better than knowing bogus ones.
All sexuality develops around the time of adolescence, so it is not uncommon that a gay orientation would develop 'later in life'.
I don't think that gay people are per se more successful in life than hetero people, or less so. It is highly probable, however that gay people in the Castro of SF are more productive, for the same reason that people that live in Tribeca or near Central Park in Manhattan are more productive: one must have money to live there, and one must be productive to have money as a rule.
The various books of the Bible were probably NOT written by their alleged authors. Authorship was nopt seen than as it is now. If I felt that St Peter or St John had inspired me, I could easily claim that they, not me, was responsible for whatever it was that I wrote. If what I wrote was closer to what the Church heirarchy believed or found convenient, my writings could actually be chosen over those of a real disciple.
What was the probability that a simple fisherman like Peter was literate?
It is not at all clear that Jesus was literate. There is no record of him ever writing anything, to anyone.
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well I wouldn`t say succesful in life
that`s just not gonna happen
just saying that their more inclined to do well.
hard to call a people successful if most want them to not exist ever.
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The "hands off religion" orientation (or the "live and let live" approach) is both a polite and wise way to handle personal relations. The trouble is, as we're seeing now with fundamentalist Christianity in the United States, and, for example, with Roman Catholicism through a great portion of the history of Europe, religion melds with or intrudes upon the public realm in arguably noxious, imperious ways such that religion itself becomes a player in the struggles of the polity, and a target.
Should a religion not advise its adherants how to live and deal with others?
Shouldn't the Government eschew this function as much as possible?