DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: BT on June 21, 2007, 06:29:00 PM

Title: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 21, 2007, 06:29:00 PM
I saw this sticker on a rear window today.



Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: sirs on June 21, 2007, 06:32:12 PM
Where's the mass Christian riots? 
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Brassmask on June 21, 2007, 06:35:10 PM
Your cartoon is equal in every single way to Phelps' God Hates Fags signs.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 21, 2007, 07:46:00 PM
Thank you for seeing my point.

Intolerance comes in many forms from many directions. One instance does not cancel nor excuse the other.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Mucho on June 22, 2007, 01:09:10 AM
I saw this sticker on a rear window today.





Obviously created by a Xtian in order to claim victimhood or worse.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 22, 2007, 01:21:44 AM
Of course.

Just like painting swastikas on temple walls is obviously an attempt by the Jews to claim victimhood.

And those Negroes with the burning crosses, what's with that?
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: gipper on June 22, 2007, 01:45:38 AM
There are some dimensions to this issue which are being overlooked. First, parodies, even directly disrespectful ones, are much more acceptable when aimed at majorities or those securely in power. In this sense, the analogy to gay jokes and such breaks down. This acceptability stems from the veritable duty to criticize those in power for a host of reasons, which can be summarized as keeping them honest. Second, another aspect overlooked is any detail whatsoever about the guy who displayed the decal. It seems to me, as likely as not, that the person MAY be a disaffected Christian in the process of working out his demons. In this sense, I contend, aside from political speech, this type of communication is prized under our First-Amendment system. Thus, on this level, the displayer enjoys the added protection of being a seeker through relevant, expressive behavior, and not a hate-monger.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 22, 2007, 02:49:25 AM
Gipper,

Your post, though well written, is off the mark. Disrespect for the religious beliefs of others flies in the face of all that the first amendment implies. It has nothing to do with numbers or majority or power. It has to do with decency and respect for the "other"


And if it matters, our sticker enthusiast also had a darwin fish prominently displayed on his rear bumper.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: MissusDe on June 22, 2007, 02:58:45 AM
Quote
In this sense, I contend, aside from political speech, this type of communication is prized under our First-Amendment system. Thus, on this level, the displayer enjoys the added protection of being a seeker through relevant, expressive behavior, and not a hate-monger.

The displayer also is violating copyright laws.

"Bill Watterson had, and still has, very strong anti-merchandising views when it comes to Calvin and Hobbes. A couple of calendars and a children's textbook were published, but after that, the only Calvin and Hobbes material that Watterson would allow were the comic books itself.

However, with a huge fan base desperate to get satisfy their Calvin and Hobbes cravings, it is of little surprise that commercial operators stepped in to produce bootleg merchandise. Refer to the merchandising page for more information.

The most popular of these bootleg merchandise was the Calvin and Hobbes bumper stickers and windows decals. And of these bumper stickers, the most requested one was the various versions showing Calvin urinating on a car logo. For the record, Watterson never drew a strip that featured Calvin urinating. Naturally, Universal Press Syndicate took a dim view of these stickers and threatened to sue sticker makers alleging infringement of copyright and trademark.

Many sticker makers simply ignore the threat whilst others, in a token effort, simply redrew the image to feature a similar, but more generic looking boy. A search of the Net will list several printers who sell Calvin and Hobbes stickers.

These images are included on this site because they are part of the history of Calvin and Hobbes. However, remember that Universal Press Syndicate nor Bill Watterson authorise the use of Calvin and Hobbes for these purposes."

http://www.nivmedia.com/calvin/bumpersticker.php (http://www.nivmedia.com/calvin/bumpersticker.php)
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Plane on June 22, 2007, 11:02:13 AM
There are some dimensions to this issue which are being overlooked. First, parodies, even directly disrespectful ones, are much more acceptable when aimed at majorities or those securely in power. In this sense, the analogy to gay jokes and such breaks down. This acceptability stems from the veritable duty to criticize those in power for a host of reasons, which can be summarized as keeping them honest. Second, another aspect overlooked is any detail whatsoever about the guy who displayed the decal. It seems to me, as likely as not, that the person MAY be a disaffected Christian in the process of working out his demons. In this sense, I contend, aside from political speech, this type of communication is prized under our First-Amendment system. Thus, on this level, the displayer enjoys the added protection of being a seeker through relevant, expressive behavior, and not a hate-monger.

I disagree that they are more acceptable when directed at majoritys , or partys in power.

Rude is rude, it is not nice to be rude to Paris Hilton  and mean to be rude to her maid , it is equivilent .

Personal respect is twards a person ,not a station nor a title.

A Judge may demand respect , a rich guy might buy some and a guy with a  gun might threaten you to be respected , but these are a lesser sort of respect than the respect that human beings owe to one another.

Of course I do respect the right of this guy to speak disrespectfully on his bumper , I want to have the same right myself.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Mucho on June 22, 2007, 11:29:27 AM
Of course.

Just like painting swastikas on temple walls is obviously an attempt by the Jews to claim victimhood.

And those Negroes with the burning crosses, what's with that?


Those folks really were minority victims . Xtian is the power majority who only want to claim victimhood for themselves as well .
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Plane on June 22, 2007, 11:32:10 AM
Of course.

Just like painting swastikas on temple walls is obviously an attempt by the Jews to claim victimhood.

And those Negroes with the burning crosses, what's with that?


Those folks really were minority victims . Xtian is the power majority who only want to claim victimhood for themselves as well .


They are victims when they are attacked , elese what would "victim " ever mean?
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: _JS on June 22, 2007, 01:02:07 PM
Perhaps the difference here is that we are called to love this person and pray for him or her.

The Life of Brian was a parody, and damn funny at that. If this is a pardoy, it is certainly low brow!
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Mucho on June 22, 2007, 01:18:29 PM
Of course.

Just like painting swastikas on temple walls is obviously an attempt by the Jews to claim victimhood.

And those Negroes with the burning crosses, what's with that?


Those folks really were minority victims . Xtian is the power majority who only want to claim victimhood for themselves as well .


They are victims when they are attacked , elese what would "victim " ever mean?

They are feigning the attack in order to gain sympathy and steal the last thing denied themie victimhood. The Xtians in here have already proven they have no shame
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: _JS on June 22, 2007, 01:25:43 PM
They are feigning the attack in order to gain sympathy and steal the last thing denied themie victimhood. The Xtians in here have already proven they have no shame

That is unfair.

The Christians in here are a diverse group, including Lanya and myself who are typically placed on the political left, Prince - who has a diverse grouping of Libertarian views, and Plane, Professor and others who have more right wing political views (apologies on anyone I left out and on the weaknesses of the traditional spectrum).

So, I think your stereotyping is grossly impractical.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 22, 2007, 01:29:09 PM
I am curious as to what proof you have that Christians are behind this sticker. Are Christians also known for having Darwin Fish on their bumpers?

Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Amianthus on June 22, 2007, 01:41:48 PM
[snip]

I'm shocked, I tell you, just absolutely shocked!
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: gipper on June 22, 2007, 05:11:30 PM
A sizeable minority (if you can extrapolate the actual "targets" to the whole of the religion) with considerable power was spoofed indecorously (but very effectively) on "The Daily Show" the other night: in the wake of the Vatican's "social letter" on driving etiquette and virtue (this is true), a correspondent on the show reported that the Church was distributing its own "breathalyzer" -- a cardinal-like figure with a tube protruding from his lower abdomen, into which the unfortunate driver is to (in the "reporters" words), "Blow, blow, blow, and keep blowing." I'm not a particularly perverse sort, but I took that as a trenchant but fair commentary on certain Church "affairs," so to speak, both hilarious and devastating to a system of disembodied teachings on morals followed hot on the heels by an "embodied hypocrisy," which puts into question the very system of morals it touts.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Michael Tee on June 22, 2007, 09:21:36 PM
I don't know how anyone could take the image seriously.  It was just a mischievous little kid with an impish grin peeing into the ground at the base of the cross.  It was an image of some tiny little kid defying the world of adults and piety and seriousness and authority.  It wasn't mean-spirited and it wasn't insulting.  Because the pee came from an urchin, it couldn't possibly have embodied any kind of hatred or rancor.  How anyone could feel threatened or put down by the disrespect of a mischievous urchin out to raise hackles for the sheer defiant joy of it is beyond me.  You've got to be pretty small to be offended by that.

I think when your religion is pretty much established as the "official" religion of the dominant peoples of the world, a little thicker skin is mandated.  It goes with the territory that all sorts of non-majoritarian outsiders will be sniping at you, some with the lightheartedness of that little kid and others more seriously or mean-spiritedly.  There are obvious lines that can be crossed, where a Christian might legitimately take offence at a threat or insult, but this certainly isn't one of them.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 22, 2007, 09:58:42 PM
Mikey

The image might be of an child. The people who put it on their care weren't.

But if intolerance and hatred is OK with you , who am i to argue.

Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Michael Tee on June 22, 2007, 10:51:41 PM
<<But if intolerance and hatred is OK with you , who am i to argue. >>

If intolerance and hatred are what you see in that image, I feel sorry for you.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: MissusDe on June 23, 2007, 12:39:20 AM
I guess this is why these bumper stickers sell so well.  That image is more palatable than displaying the actual words "Piss on Christians and everything they believe in."  on the your rear window.  And if anyone takes offense, the displayer can always play innocent and say,  "Oh, c'mon....it's just a cartoon.  It doesn't mean anything."  Or maybe he can even pull off being affronted at the mere suggestion that he is demonstrating prejudice of any kind.

A picture is worth a thousand words, indeed.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 23, 2007, 12:55:27 AM
I guess this is why these bumper stickers sell so well.
====================================
I don't think that this particular image, with ther cross, sells well at all. I have never seen one.

Mostly, these show car or truck logos. A Ford will have a Calvin peeing on a Chevy or Dodge label, a Chevy will have a Calvin peeing on a Ford or Dodge label, and so forth.

There are lots more of these on trucks than cars.

I did see one confused Ford driver with the Calvin peeing on the Ford logo.

I have a fish with feet holding a wrench, with the slogan "EVOLVE", which seems a lot more positive than the usual stickers.
 
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Amianthus on June 23, 2007, 01:50:38 AM
I did see one confused Ford driver with the Calvin peeing on the Ford logo.

Perhaps he considered his vehicle to be a lemon.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Michael Tee on June 23, 2007, 01:16:34 PM
<<That image is more palatable than displaying the actual words "Piss on Christians and everything they believe in.">>

I took it more as "I'm little but I'm ME!" kind of thing.  That little guy wouldn't have a clue as to "everything [Christians] believe in," wouldn't understand it if he did, and wouldn't give a shit if he understood.  As far as the "piss on Christians" goes, it would be meaningless to him because everyone in his little world is a Christian. 
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 23, 2007, 03:37:34 PM
Methinks you mistake the cartoon character for the actual speaker.

Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: sirs on June 23, 2007, 03:43:14 PM
Doncha love how hatred and intolerance are given a pass when it's supposedly aimed at the "majority", as if that makes it alright      :-\
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: gipper on June 23, 2007, 04:01:32 PM
Last I checked, PURE SPEECH expressing revulsion, disgust, hatred and the like was both tolerated by our own First Amendment and more broadly by democratic theory in general. The idea of both is to create thee architecture for two-way communication, in this example at least, between the "haves" and the "have nots," especially as to the impact of haves' beliefs on have nots fortunes. The question of rudeness -- or its flipside, politeness -- in such endeavors is ancillary, that is, not central to the main mechanism prized in the set-up: effective feedback.

In its most violent, exaggerated extreme, the problem we are discussing here -- only analogous to our present circumstances or, say, those under President Clinton, by the mere mantle of power and the generation of unpopular policies, but not as to moral absenteeism and evil incarnate -- are the right (but rarely the opportunity) to run trenchant, biting commentary on the radical regimes of the Left and Right: Stalinist USSR, Maoist China, with a long list of political degradations cascading down from there. Perhaps best conceived as a prophylactic as much as a corrective, our robust theory of speech explicitly tolerates the regularly annoying as a sentry against the truly evil. Live with it.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: sirs on June 23, 2007, 04:13:06 PM
And last time I checked, expressive criticism and highlighting of hateful intolerant speech is also protected under the 1st amendment.  Not to mention that same right when it's aimed at those who give it said speech a pass on its hate, simply because it's aimed at "the majority".  Ironic, isn't it

Criticisng said hatred and intolerance does NOT equate to trying to legislatively suppress it or prevent it.  You'd think someone of your superior intellect would know that.  What a surprise
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: gipper on June 23, 2007, 04:15:27 PM
My superior intellect understands the problem perfectly well, which your last post tacitly admits.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: sirs on June 23, 2007, 04:23:56 PM
What "problem" would that be, great wise one?  Currently the only "problem" I see is the continued pass hatred and intolerance are given when it happens to aimed at the supposed "majority". 

In my book, hate is hate, regardless who it's aimed at, and not accepted nor even "tolerated", even if aimed at the "majority".  That, FYI still doesn't equate to any effort on my part to prevent said hate, which is the cornerstone to the 1st amendment
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: gipper on June 23, 2007, 04:27:38 PM
Yawn.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: sirs on June 23, 2007, 04:35:06 PM
So, no problem then.  Gotcha

 ::)
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: gipper on June 23, 2007, 05:01:10 PM
You can devote your time explaining (and these are direct quotes) why "hate is hate ... and [can] not [be] accepted nor even 'tolerated'" WITH THE IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING COMMENT "[this] ... doesn't equate on my part to prevent said hate, which is the cornerstone to the 1st amendment."

What you mean, I suppose, is that we have admitted that the controversial cartoon is properly (depending on interest, resonance, etc.) a part of legitimate debate, and that we are wrangling over the best strategies and tactics to address it, such as including, but not limited to, "How dare they insult us that way!" "This is the work of a low-life," etc. What you don't want to do, it seems to me, is to delve behind the motivation and the potentially powerful symbolism to ask, "What is he upset about?" "How can we address that?" and so forth. Now, don't get me wrong, the strategy and tactics of debate are something I find inherently interesting, but not as interesting as the potentially profound image and its justifiable implications drawn from immediate context or an even more sweeping context pitting Christianity "against" (it actually can be a cooperative effort) its dissidents down through the centuries, or the very use of Christianity as an organizing set of principles for a civilization (Western Civilization) and the (negative) effects that has had and  why the issue is so topical today as modernity clashes with religion (again, it can be cooperatively) and renegade radicals of kindred religions declare war on what we are, it seems.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: sirs on June 23, 2007, 05:33:50 PM
What I have "admitted" is that I (sirs) can recognize hateful intolerant speech (& cartoons), and have a 1st amendment right to indicate such.  I also have the same 1st amendment right to reference the hypocritical duplicity some have in giving such speech (& cartoons) a pass, because they happen to be aimed at some nebulous "majority", as if that makes it perfectly acceptable. 

Capice'?  So, what would be your "problem" with that?
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 23, 2007, 05:55:18 PM
Quote
Last I checked, PURE SPEECH expressing revulsion, disgust, hatred and the like was both tolerated by our own First Amendment and more broadly by democratic theory in general.

Last I checked, a sticker like this might get a defendant a hate crime bonus if his victim were a Christian. Just something to think about as we ponder the mysteries of the first.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Amianthus on June 23, 2007, 05:59:22 PM
My superior intellect understands the problem perfectly well, which your last post tacitly admits.

There's that famous humility that we've been missing recently...
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: gipper on June 23, 2007, 07:22:48 PM
What you say, BT, in your last post is wholly irrelevant. The First Amendment and democratic theory protect the "battle of ideas," not of cudgels.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 23, 2007, 07:27:02 PM
What i say is totally relevant, regardless of your dismissive attitude. How else are hate crimes prosecuted if not by looking into the mindset of the perpetrator.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Michael Tee on June 23, 2007, 08:40:39 PM
<<What i say is totally relevant, regardless of your dismissive attitude. How else are hate crimes prosecuted if not by looking into the mindset of the perpetrator. >>

Well, I looked into the mindset of the perpetrator and I sure as hell did not see any hate.  I don't think you 'd find one guy in twelve who would think that was a hate-motivated cartoon, let alone a crime. 

The problem with the right wing is that they have absolutely no sense of proportion.  The same insanity that lets them compare the Holocaust with abortion rights shows them a hate crime in a cheerfully irreverent cartoon.   Personally, I think it's because they just don't live in the real world, they're over-focused on the battle of ideas and tend to see life in the abstract rather than as just life.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 23, 2007, 09:41:51 PM
Quote
Well, I looked into the mindset of the perpetrator and I sure as hell did not see any hate.  I don't think you 'd find one guy in twelve who would think that was a hate-motivated cartoon, let alone a crime.

No one said it was a crime.

Quote
The problem with the right wing is that they have absolutely no sense of proportion. 

What's a yellow Juden armband among friends.

Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: gipper on June 24, 2007, 12:38:00 AM
As I recall it, the prototype of hate of which you speak was a yellow Star of David worn on the chest. Nowadays, here, I figure even they would be protected speech, and even in, of all places, a Jewish enclave like Skokie. The question is not whether you have any control over the pure-speech aspects of the symbol, but how you react to it once it's been introduced into your environment.

That's not the end of the matter, of course. Offshoot issues such as control of venue, for example, to keep the peace are rife with a message like this, as are other issues. Then there are the whole addressing-content, managing-the-politics aspects, which, of course, can start with a blistering ad hominem attack, maybe. Sometimes I myself favor calling a shitbird a shitbird, for time-saving's sake.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 24, 2007, 01:07:57 AM
I really don't see much difference between symbolically pissing on the predominant symbol for Christianity and flushing a Koran down a toilet.

Yet one alleged action made headlines for months and the other action is minimized to a free speech issue. Which as long as the government stays uninvolved, is a straw man argument if i ever heard one.

In this forum we have been told that the intent of the speaker is not as important as the reaction of the listener.

We have heard that if you feel that your membership in a group is why you were targeted then that is all that matters for a crime to go to bonus rounds with hate crime penalties.

Look at this case in New York:

To Commit a Hate Crime, Must the Criminal Truly Hate the Victim?


In her courtroom on the 21st floor of State Supreme Court in Brooklyn yesterday, Justice Jill Konviser-Levine sat and pondered the question of hate.

?Bottom line,? Justice Konviser-Levine ruminated aloud, ?is animus an element of the crime??

The crime in question was the killing of Michael J. Sandy, 29, a gay man who was lured to a parking area in Sheepshead Bay last October, beaten and chased into traffic. He later died in the hospital.

Prosecutors have said a group of young men contacted Mr. Sandy through an online gay chat room, selecting him as a robbery victim in the belief that a gay man would be unwilling or unable to put up a fight and unlikely to report the crime.

The defendants ? John Fox, 20; Ilya Shurov, 21; and Anthony Fortunato, 21 ? have been charged not just with murder, but with murder under the state Hate Crimes Act of 2000, which provides longer prison sentences for crimes motivated ?in whole or in substantial part because of a belief or perception regarding the race, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, religious practice, age, disability or sexual orientation of a person.?

Prosecutors and defense lawyers have presented contrasting interpretations of that phrase, the words it includes and the words it omits.

In court documents, a defense lawyer has asked Justice Konviser-Levine to dismiss the enhanced murder charges against all three defendants because ?the crimes alleged are not crimes of hate but rather crimes of opportunity.?

That lawyer, Gerald J. Di Chiara, filed a motion in which he argued that lawmakers responsible for the Hate Crimes Act had written a statute applicable only to defendants who truly hate their victims. He quoted from a State Senate memorandum in support of a law ?designed to ensure that only those who truly are motivated by invidious hatred are prosecuted for committing hate crimes.?

To allow prosecutors to pursue hate crime charges without demonstrating such hatred, Mr. Di Chiara argued, would render the law unconstitutionally vague and arbitrary.

For example, he wrote, the authorities could then ascribe hate crimes to ?a mugger who selects an elderly or disabled person because he believes that such a victim will be unable to resist effectively, a pocketbook snatcher who targets women, or a burglar who selects a victim from an ethnic minority group because the victim does not speak English.?

In response, prosecutors filed a response drafted by Seth M. Lieberman, senior appellate counsel to the Brooklyn district attorney. Around the courthouse, Mr. Lieberman, a quiet, cerebral man, is most often found sitting in silence beside his colleagues, taking notes on constitutional issues.

In his response, Mr. Lieberman began with an end run around the defense motion: He conceded that the grand jury had seen no evidence of hatred for gay men, but argued that Justice Konviser-Levine had approved the indictment, thus implicitly rejecting the same defense arguments.

In addition, he argued, if lawmakers had intended to make prosecutors prove defendants hated their victims, the Legislature would have said so in the law?s final language.

?By contrast with New York State,? Mr. Lieberman wrote, ?other states have hate crime statutes that require evidence of bias, animus or prejudice.?

Citing legal scholars, he suggested that hate crime prosecutions without evidence of hatred could benefit society. As in the era of racially motivated lynching, he noted, prosecutors could alter perceptions of vulnerability among certain groups and impunity among others.

At the hearing yesterday, friends and relatives of Mr. Sandy?s sat opposite supporters of the defendants. All paid rapt attention as Justice Konviser-Levine probed the merits of the motion. In its intellectual exercise, the hearing departed from the usual tenor of the courthouse, a place more fertile for high dudgeon, emotional drama and accidental comedy.

In his oral argument, Mr. Lieberman said the hate crime law was meant to address a deep social problem.

Justice Konviser-Levine, who is due to rule in August, asked him whether he meant the law was ?nothing more than rhetoric??

To the contrary, Mr. Lieberman argued, the law was valid and fit these defendants because ?they chose to go to a gay Web site, and there was a particular remark made by one of the defendants that this was an easy way to rob people.?

Then the defense lawyer, Mr. Di Chiara, split that point even more finely: ?The victim here was chosen because he was an easy target,? he said, ?not because he was gay.?


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/20/nyregion/20hate.html?ex=1339992000&en=ecbe0bca7c7e9afc&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: gipper on June 24, 2007, 01:17:41 AM
I don't follow your reasoning, BT. I will leave all the other issues unaddressed because they, like the Koran incident I will address shortly, have no bearing on the points and principles I'm making, at least as I see it. As for the Koran, wasn't that insult reportedly imposed by a United States Army serviceman against a Muslim prisoner at Guantanamo, thus implicating a host of issues not present with the little kid pissing, such as the code of military conduct and, much more profoundly, international relations with Muslim nations at a time when their cooperation and support may prove critical to the conflict with Islamic radicals?
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 24, 2007, 01:35:11 AM
Does it matter who does the deed? Isn't the real issue the reaction of the audience?

You mention Muslim nations reacting badly to reports of this abuse, which by the way were disproved.

This isn't a question of governance or relationships between states. It is a simple matter of civility that should be present in a diverse society.

Isn't the mantra of the left to have empathy for others? Yet it seems the left has no empathy for those who may be offended by something like this sticker on a rear windshield. Get over it they say. The rules don't apply to majorities. Its a mere child depicted on the sticker, how could this child have hate in their heart ( which was one of the more ridiculous arguments posted) .

Why the change ?

Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Michael Tee on June 24, 2007, 02:12:03 AM
<<What's a yellow Juden armband among friends.>>

That's exactly what I mean when I say that the right wing lacks any real sense of proportion.  It also illustrates either an inability to put things into context or a poor grasp of history, again classic hallmarks of the radical right.  

You can't compare the forced wearing of racial ID (the direct result of the infamous Nuremburg Racial Laws of Nazi Germany) with this cartoon.  You'd have to be completely ignorant (a) of the long history of anti-Semitic hate propaganda vilifying Jews as aliens and parasites, physically, morally and mentally inferior in every way to their "Aryan" neighbours that led up to the laws, (b) the laws themselves and (c) the ultimate consequences of that "philosophy."  OTOH, the cartoon was just a cartoon.  Without belabouring the subject, even you should be able to see the difference between the two.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 24, 2007, 02:46:44 AM
Quote
You can't compare the forced wearing of racial ID (the direct result of the infamous Nuremburg Racial Laws of Nazi Germany) with this cartoon.

It always starts with desensitizing. demonize the rich, blame the Jews, piss on Christians. As long as it is some other group what the hell, right? Next thing you know you have Nuremberg laws.

No where am i saying that this sticker is the same as Nazi Germany. What i am saying is it all starts with intolerance. And acceptance of same.


Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: gipper on June 24, 2007, 03:16:03 AM
That type of spiel might get the chickens dancin' in Georgia, but up here it's a ho-hum flop. Allow me to be direct and frank (and thus court perceived rudeness): you're way off on this, BT, in La-La Land.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 24, 2007, 10:52:13 AM
Quote
That type of spiel might get the chickens dancin' in Georgia, but up here it's a ho-hum flop.

I can see how that might be. Joisey beinp populated with an abundance of Joe Piscopo sophisticates.

But thanks for the ruling anyways, yer honor.

A bumper sticker praising the merits of sickle cell apparently is acceptable up your way.

Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: sirs on June 24, 2007, 01:24:07 PM
It always starts with desensitizing. demonize the rich, blame the Jews, piss on Christians. As long as it is some other group what the hell, right? Next thing you know you have Nuremberg laws.   No where am i saying that this sticker is the same as Nazi Germany.  

What i am saying is it all starts with intolerance. And acceptance of same.

Give that man a cigar.  Well Summized, Bt
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Michael Tee on June 24, 2007, 05:02:54 PM
<<No where am i saying that this sticker is the same as Nazi Germany. What i am saying is it all starts with intolerance. And acceptance of same. >>

Well, you seemed to equate the cartoon with the statutorily mandated wearing of racial identification armbands or badges.  Sure sounded to me like you thought you were making a valid comparison.

I think where you are probably going wrong is in not being able to distinguish between intolerance and irreverence.  Again it's that famous right-wing "either-or" mentality, which might be OK in basic logical theory but doesn't adapt well to the complexities of real life.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 24, 2007, 05:19:21 PM
Quote
Well, you seemed to equate the cartoon with the statutorily mandated wearing of racial identification armbands or badges.  Sure sounded to me like you thought you were making a valid comparison.

Perhaps you read into my post that which i did not say.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Michael Tee on June 24, 2007, 05:37:58 PM
<<Perhaps you read into my post that which i did not say. >>

I'm glad to hear that. 

So I guess you agree with me that making Jews wear legally-mandated yellow "Jew" armbands and badges is one hell of a lot worse than displaying bumper stickers showing a grinning little kid pissing on the base of a cross.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 24, 2007, 05:49:28 PM
Quote
So I guess you agree with me that making Jews wear legally-mandated yellow "Jew" armbands and badges is one hell of a lot worse than displaying bumper stickers showing a grinning little kid pissing on the base of a cross.

No.

Buit i will say that the armbands grew out of the same intolerance and acceptance of that intolerance that we see displayed by the sticker and your defense of same.

Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Michael Tee on June 24, 2007, 11:22:22 PM
<<No. >>

No, you DON'T agree with me that the mandatory wearing of yellow "Jew" armbands by German Jews  is a hell of a lot worse than the cartoon on the bumper sticker? 

You mean if you asked a German Jew in 1938, What's worse for you, being forced to wear those arm-bands every time you and/or your family go out of the house, or seeing bumper stickers of little kids peeing on a Jewish star? the Jew would answer, they're both just the same?  If a genie gave that Jew a choice between abolishing the arm-band law or abollishing the bumper sticker, he wouldn't choose one over the other?  You are seriously challenged in the reality department, BT.  You are so far out of touch with the real world that there is no point in debating this further with you.

<<Buit i will say that the armbands grew out of the same intolerance and acceptance of that intolerance that we see displayed by the sticker and your defense of same. >>

Not even close.  The armband came out of a lengthy propaganda campaign that vilified Jews in cartoons and posters as stooped, hook-nosed, vulturous and smelly fiends who tortured Christian children, raped innocent golden-haired Aryan maidens, robbed virtuous hard-working German citizens of the fruits of their labours and poisoned the water supply.  It came out of speeches and books that claimed the Jews had connived at Germany's loss of WWI for their own financial gain, avoided combat, betrayed their country, corrupted the morals of the youth, poisoned the purity of the Aryan bloodstream and were raking in obscene profits from the post-war collapse of the currency.  This campaign went on for years before the enactment of the Nuremburg racial laws.

The bumper sticker on the other hand came from nothing like that.  If anything, it seems to have come from Calvin & Hobbes cartoons.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 24, 2007, 11:26:11 PM
Quote
The armband came out of a lengthy propaganda campaign that vilified Jews in cartoons and posters as stooped, hook-nosed, vulturous and smelly fiends who tortured Christian children, raped innocent golden-haired Aryan maidens, robbed virtuous hard-working German citizens of the fruits of their labours and poisoned the water supply.

So it did start with cartoon characters.

I rest my case.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 24, 2007, 11:31:40 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JXBRHDMFL._AA280_.gif)
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Michael Tee on June 24, 2007, 11:42:29 PM
<<So it did start with cartoon characters. >>

I said it came out of cartoons and I also said in the very next sentence that it came out of books and speeches. 

I didn't say or imply that it STARTED with cartoon characters.  The cartoons would have been meaningless and insignificant were there not already in place the political anti-Semitism within which the cartoon anti-Semitism took root and fluourished.

It certainly did not start with cartoon characters.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: sirs on June 24, 2007, 11:51:27 PM
Quote
The armband came out of a lengthy propaganda campaign that vilified Jews in cartoons and posters as stooped, hook-nosed, vulturous and smelly fiends who tortured Christian children, raped innocent golden-haired Aryan maidens, robbed virtuous hard-working German citizens of the fruits of their labours and poisoned the water supply.

So it did start with cartoon characters.  I rest my case.  


 :D    touche'
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 24, 2007, 11:56:02 PM
Mikey is going to give himself whiplash he keeps flip flopping around like that.

Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Michael Tee on June 25, 2007, 02:56:10 AM
I didn't flip-flop at all. 

I said very clearly that the armband came out of cartoons. 

I also said very clearly in the very next sentence that it came out of speeches and books.

You made a completely unwarranted assumption:  that I said it came out of cartoons BEFORE it came out of books and speeches.  Yet I said no such thing.  And of course, the idea is absurd.

Your bullshit is pathetically transparent:  put words in someone's mouth, and when he denies saying them, accuse him of flip-flopping.  Who do you really fool with this crap?  Apparently, only sirs.  Hardly worth the effort, BT.  His premature crowing  is pure reflex action - - like a knee-jerk, only faster.

Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 25, 2007, 06:48:13 AM
And i never made claims of the chronology of the events.

What i did say is that the intolerance displayed in your cartoons, which you freely admit happened, can lead to much dire manifestations of intolerance.

Yet you pooh pooh the Calvin and Hobbes misuse, questioning my sanity as you gaze into your crystal ball and say no big deal, while all i have to do is crack a history book and see that it very well could be a big deal.

Certainly there are differences.

But also most certain is that the expression of intolerance seems to have found acceptance and dismissal in both examples.

And that isn't a good thing.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: MissusDe on June 25, 2007, 07:02:15 AM
Quote
What i did say is that the intolerance displayed in your cartoons, which you freely admit happened, can lead to much dire manifestations of intolerance.

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. - George Santayana
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: _JS on June 25, 2007, 10:52:17 AM
But history's lesson is quite a bit different here.

The racial hatred for the Jews in Europe (and the United States and Canada) did not come about through a few statements or drawings such as these. They came about through centuries of anger, bitterness, and anti-Semitic laws.

The racial hatred for the blacks in the United States came about primarily due to their complete dehumanisation, which turned them into property. This was mirrored in the law as well as in the minds of the people who lived in areas where slavery was common. Blacks were an economic function, not human beings. A similar event took place with Black South Africans, where it was even the policy to make the black people appear as economic functions (this is how they were spoken of in Parliament, for example).

While I don't like the window sticker and the symbolism it uses, it is not comparable to the aforementioned events. That is pure hyperbole. I have to disagree with Missus, Bt, and others who make this claim.

The point I believe that Domer is making, or at least part of it, is that Christians represent a sizable majority here in the United States. More than that, they represent a powerful majority. No one becomes president without at least making a presentable case for being a Christian. On lists of past Presidents, Chief Justices, Secretaries of State, etc...it is not uncommon to find "religion" listed among their characteristics. You won't find many atheists, Buddhists, or Muslims on those lists!

Historically, taking swipes at powerful majorities is not uncommon. There were plenty of jokes in Russia and East Germany about the communist governments. The Church was on the receiving end of a great number of parodies throughout her history (read The Decameron if you don't believe me ;) ). You think this sticker is insulting, The Decameron makes it look like pre-school material, but the Church survived it rather easily. The British Parliament and crown have been on the receiving end of scathing satire and criticism since the earliest days, and it has survived to be the oldest continuing nation in the world.

So swiping at the majority is really a common historical phenomena. That doesn't mean we should accept racism or bitter hatred, but I'm not sure I'm seeing that here.

In fact, I'm far more concerned about Muslims, who seem to receive a lot of criticism, much of it unfounded in both Europe and the United States. I've seen it right here. To me, that could mirror the hatred of the Jews far more closely than this sticker.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 25, 2007, 10:57:40 AM
Js

We can waste time doing comparative analysis of what peoples are the greatest victims in the world or we can recognize intolerance when we see it.

Frankly i wasn't offended.

And i have seen far more vitriolic attacks against faith and those who have faith in these very pages.

I simply saw it as a sign of the times.

And apparently to many, that sign means nothing.

Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: Michael Tee on June 25, 2007, 11:00:13 AM
I think the Santayana quote is one of the most misapplied quotations in politics.

There is nothing wrong with the quote itself; it's very profound and very true.  But it presupposes that the people who use it actually know something about history.  

If anyone thinks that the Nazi movement - - or indeed the general European anti-Semitism which caused or contributed to the Holocaust - - originated with cartoons, they are indeed sadly ignorant of history.  Anti-Semitism began as a religious current in the Christian religion, in which the Jews were vilified for centuries as the killers of Christ.  They were referred to as such (invariably accompanied by such endearing adjectives as "perfidious" and "accursed") in the official liturgy and public prayers of the RCC all over Europe.  Martin Luther and his successors in Protestantism continued the work.  ("The Jews and Their Lies" by Martin Luther)  When the Nazis began to speak, after the loss of WWI, of a treasonous racial cancer amongst the German people, they had a ready-made audience receptive to every word they said. Nobody was hearing anything new about the alleged nature and character of the Jews.

To make the claim that hatred of the Jews began as anything other than a religious precept - - a Christian precept - - is totally ridiculous.  But to claim that it began with cartoons is - - I would have said laughable, except that I see that otherwise intelligent people like BT actually seem to believe it - - and I am actually just a little bit stunned.  Shocked, kind of.  Against that kind of wilful ignorance, there is really no argument.  We just have to agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: _JS on June 25, 2007, 11:32:04 AM
Js

We can waste time doing comparative analysis of what peoples are the greatest victims in the world or we can recognize intolerance when we see it.

Frankly i wasn't offended.

And i have seen far more vitriolic attacks against faith and those who have faith in these very pages.

I simply saw it as a sign of the times.

And apparently to many, that sign means nothing.

You misunderstand. It isn't what people are the greatest victims. It is how certain groups got to be in the situation of being extremely victimised by the societies in which they lived. People are all too quick to jump in with comparisons to yellow stars or slavery, but many times those comparisons fall flat. If we want to apply Missus' point then we need to apply it with a realistic view of history.

I do think that the sticker is a sign of the times. And that is unfortunate.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 25, 2007, 12:55:55 PM
Quote
I do think that the sticker is a sign of the times. And that is unfortunate.

Thank you for understanding my point.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: gipper on June 25, 2007, 02:54:28 PM
The logical extension of BT's conception of this problem would be, apparently, to silence raw, bruising critics -- to siphon out vitriol from public discourse. On the other hand, Michael's, JS's and my approaches would leave response to the political process, with the ever-present memory (NOT appropriate here for the kid pissing on the cross) that extrapolations of the offensive behavior may lead to catastrophic extremes.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: sirs on June 25, 2007, 03:02:58 PM
Again, Domer with the apparent illogic leap that cricizing said intolerant/hateful speech (& cartoons) is tantamount to advocating suppression of free speech     ::)
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: gipper on June 25, 2007, 03:08:42 PM
You people are often so loony and blindly righteous that a constant reminder is appropriate.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 25, 2007, 03:16:30 PM
Quote
The logical extension of BT's conception of this problem would be, apparently, to silence raw, bruising critics -- to siphon out vitriol from public discourse. On the other hand, Michael's, JS's and my approaches would leave response to the political process, with the ever-present memory (NOT appropriate here for the kid pissing on the cross) that extrapolations of the offensive behavior may lead to catastrophic extremes.

Leaving it to the political process would in fact make it a freedom of speech issue. It certainly makes it a hate crime issue.

I happen to think peer pressure would be more appropriate.

Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: gipper on June 25, 2007, 03:18:19 PM
Get back to me when you know what you're talking about.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: sirs on June 25, 2007, 03:26:39 PM
Despite its overt arrogant overtones, your intentions were perhaps sincere.  Misplaced and completely unnecessary, but sincere
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 25, 2007, 03:49:00 PM
Quote
Get back to me when you know what you're talking about.

Who are you talking to?
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: gipper on June 25, 2007, 04:12:58 PM
You. "Peer pressure," if directed to politically significant topics, is the paradigm of political action, the root model upon which the entire political process is based, and from which it burgeons into the colossus we often think we can't manage. "Hate crimes" ALWAYS require a (usually violent) base crime to which the hate aspect is engrafted as a sentence-enhancer. That was the exact scenario in the USSCt Apprendi case in 2000 or so, the grandaddy of hate-crime cases. As to hate crimes, the law tolerates inconsistency, if not dissonance. Rankling, hate-based speech is nominally protected until it accompanies a criminal acting out with (in)appropriate motive. We don't have to get stuck on that point, which is legally and intellectually chalked up to paradox or anomaly.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: BT on June 25, 2007, 04:21:23 PM
Peer Pressure is a form of political activity but it does not carry the weight of law. At worst case the offender will be shunned, not incarcerated, fined or otherwise punished by the state.

There is peer pressure to not steal from your neighbor, there is also a code of law that frowns on such activity.

In the case of the sticker i see no need for a law.

I would simply recognize the speaker for what they are.



Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: gipper on June 25, 2007, 04:30:08 PM
We agree and basically see eye to eye.
Title: Re: Meet the new Tolerance
Post by: sirs on June 25, 2007, 04:49:29 PM
Peer Pressure is a form of political activity but it does not carry the weight of law. At worst case the offender will be shunned, not incarcerated, fined or otherwise punished by the state.  There is peer pressure to not steal from your neighbor, there is also a code of law that frowns on such activity.  In the case of the sticker i see no need for a law.  I would simply recognize the speaker for what they are.  

Again, Bt with the excellent summation