DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Richpo64 on September 04, 2007, 03:34:29 PM
-
Death, Canadian Style
Why national health care has led to Canadians getting world class care -- in Buffalo.
By Bill Steigerwald
FrontPageMagazine.com | 9/4/2007
If Canada's national health-care system is so dang wonderful, why are so many Canadians coming to America to pay for their own medical care?
Why is the hip replacement center of Canada in Ohio -- at the Cleveland Clinic, where 10 percent of its international patients are Canadians?
Why is the Brain and Spine Clinic in Buffalo serving about 10 border-crossing Canadians a week? Why did a Calgary woman recently have to drive several hundred miles to Great Falls, Mont., to give birth to her quadruplets?
It's simple. As the market-oriented Fraser Institute in Vancouver, B.C., can tell you, Canada's vaunted "free" government health-care system cannot or deliberately will not provide its 33 million citizens with the nonemergency health care they want and need when they need or want it.
Courtesy of the institute, here are some unflattering facts about Canada's sickly system:
Number of Canadians on waiting lists for referrals to specialists or for medical services -- 875,000.
Average wait from time of referral to treatment by a specialist -- 17.8 weeks.
Shortest waiting time -- oncology, 4.9 weeks.
Longest waiting times -- orthopedic surgery, 40.3 weeks.
Average wait to get an MRI -- 10.3 weeks nationally but 28 weeks in Newfoundland.
Average wait time for a surgery considered "elective," like a hip replacement -- four or more months.
Hello, Cleveland.
The Canadian system is horribly short on consumer choice and competition. But it isn't all bad -- if you don't mind waiting to access it. As health policy analyst Nadeem Esmail of the Fraser Institute said last week, it does "a decent job of saving your life but treats you terribly in the process."
Esmail says no one knows exactly how many Canadians go to the United States each year for medical care. His best estimate for 2006 -- a conservative one -- is 39,282. Whatever the actual number is, however, it is growing.
Clinics in Detroit and Buffalo market speedy MRIs, CTs or ultrasounds to Canadians which, by law, cannot be purchased privately in some provinces, including Ontario.
Ontario residents have three options: wait months for their free public MRI, travel to a province like Quebec where it is legal to buy one privately or travel to the U.S.
It's no wonder private medical and surgical brokers like Timely Medical Alternatives of Vancouver have sprung into existence. Rick Baker said his three-year-old company refers about 100 Canadians a month to U.S. clinics and hospitals for such things as MRIs and knee replacements.
Timely Medical's services came in handy for Lindsay McCreith, a retired auto body shop owner who was told in 2006 he probably had a brain tumor. He needed an MRI fast. But the wait time for a "free" public one was 4 1/2 months and it was illegal to purchase a private MRI in Ontario.
McCreith contacted Timely Medical, which got him an MRI the next day in Buffalo that showed he had a Titleist-sized tumor. Four and half weeks later, McCreith had received the brain surgery that could have taken eight months to happen in Canada -- if he had still been alive. It cost him $28,000 -- for which Canada's government won't reimburse him.
Stories like McCreith's -- and the downsides of Canadian and American health care -- will be exposed Sept. 14 by ABC's John Stossel in his "20/20" special, tentatively titled "Sick in America." Rick Baker hopes Hillary Clinton and her friends will be watching.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Steigerwald is the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review's associate editor. Call him at (412) 320-7983. E-mail him at: bsteigerwald@tribweb.com.
-
Assuming this article is correct, how does Cuba, for example, compare to both the US and Canada. Don't forget there are TWO prime issues here in a fair conceptualization: quality and extent.
-
I'll take quality over extent, every day of the week
-
Everyone would take quality over extent.
But the problem is that most can't afford it. Eventually, with health care costs rising much faster than the rate of inflation, you won't be able to afford it, either.
At is at this point where you will have to choose between your ideals and your survival.
-
I think the ideal solution is found by those who live in Canada but have a short drive into the US , they needn't wait if they are willing to pay and they neednt pay if they are willing to wait.
How can we produce such a hybrid system on purpose?
-
>>Assuming this article is correct, how does Cuba, for example, compare to both the US and Canada. Don't forget there are TWO prime issues here in a fair conceptualization: quality and extent.<<
It's my understanding that there are two kinds of healthcare in Cuba. One for the powerfiul and their friends, and one for the rest of the country.
-
How can we produce such a hybrid system on purpose?
======================================
We can't, because the US is too large, and alas, you aren't Canadian.
You could move to Windsor, ONT, perhaps, and apply for landed immigrant status if you wish.
-
How can we produce such a hybrid system on purpose?
======================================
We can't, because the US is too large, and alas, you aren't Canadian.
You could move to Windsor, ONT, perhaps, and apply for landed immigrant status if you wish.
I do not handle cold well enough to consider such a thing seriously , but I have visited Canada and I have been on Naval Maneuver with Canadian ships , we are lucky to have Canada as a neighbor , one could hardly ask for better.
But waist deep snow? Burrrrr.... I don't think my health would hold long enough to get to a doctor.
The Canadian border is easy enough to cross why don't I simply vacation there and schedule a checkup in a Canadian clinic every summer?
-
The Canadian border is easy enough to cross why don't I simply vacation there and schedule a checkup in a Canadian clinic every summer?
You don't have a SIN number.
-
The Canadian border is easy enough to cross why don't I simply vacation there and schedule a checkup in a Canadian clinic every summer?
You don't have a SIN number.
MT could loan me his !
Haveing no SSN seems to be a small impediment to Mexicans who want to cross their northern border , if I find economic benefit by crossing a border myself why should I not?
-
Windsor, Ontario is further south than Northern California. That's a geographical fact. Check the latitudes.
Of course, the temperature in Windsor is lower than the temperature in Yreka or Susanville, but still, it's further south. Not very sunny, either.
I would recommend Vancouver Island and perhaps the City of Vancouver as warm enough for human habitation. Both are very pretty and the people are quite friendly.
If you like green, either place is mostly a very nice shade of it.
-
Windsor, Ontario is further south than Northern California. That's a geographical fact. Check the latitudes.
Of course, the temperature in Windsor is lower than the temperature in Yreka or Susanville, but still, it's further south. Not very sunny, either.
I would recommend Vancouver Island and perhaps the City of Vancouver as warm enough for human habitation. Both are very pretty and the people are quite friendly.
If you like green, either place is mostly a very nice shade of it.
For a visit I have no objection at all.
And if I should happen to be sick while I visit?
-
You can take the ferry to Seattle or drive down to Bellingham.
Or you can become a landed immigrant to Canada.
Canada has a lot of aircraft. Perhaps once you become acclimitized, you could become a bush pilot out of Yellowknife, or build a nice cabin along the McKenzie, the Yukon or the Rat.
-
You can take the ferry to Seattle or drive down to Bellingham.
Or you can become a landed immigrant to Canada.
Canada has a lot of aircraft. Perhaps once you become acclimitized, you could become a bush pilot out of Yellowknife, or build a nice cabin along the McKenzie, the Yukon or the Rat.
Now you have hit me , I daydream of makeing my liveing as a pilot , unfortuneately I am not a pilot yet, just a greasemoney.
This is of course beside the point ,the point being that a Canadian who lives near an American City lacks for no Medicine, haveing both systems avilible . Why should this not work in th other direction as well?
-
AS Jimmy Carter has pointed out, life is not fair.
You could surely get a pilots' license and get a good used pontoon and ski plane in Canada.
They had really good plaid wool shirts and hats at the St Vincent de Pauw in Seattle, Bellingham, and Vancouver when I lived there. You could make friends with a mountie.
You could eventually stroke a moose.'
Adventure and adequate healthcare await!
You could learn the lyrics to "I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK".
-
<<It's simple. As the market-oriented Fraser Institute in Vancouver, B.C., can tell you, Canada's vaunted "free" government health-care system cannot or deliberately will not provide its 33 million citizens with the nonemergency health care they want and need when they need or want it.>>
That's an old story. You wait longer for elective surgery than an American with a decent health plan waits for his or hers. That's just the cost of making sure that everybody in the country is covered and that the essentials - - the stuff that just can't wait - - is dealt with in a timely manner for everybody.
<<Average wait from time of referral to treatment by a specialist -- 17.8 weeks.
<<Shortest waiting time -- oncology, 4.9 weeks.>>
And again that is somewhat misleading - - if a GP thinks that there is a life-threatening or serious matter developing that needs immediate attention, the referral to the specialist is immediate. Same day or next day for really urgent cancer cases, and I know this from personal stories of friends and relatives. The average wait times are relatively meaningless since the average visit is non-urgent anyway. I don't know if there's a measuring technique for waiting times in urgent cases, but if there were, that's the measure that ought to be employed.
BTW, whoever made that "waist-deep in snow" comment (probably plane) really oughtta check out some basic geography - - 90% of our population lives within a hundred miles of the U.S. border, so our climate isn't all that different from that of Michigan. Toronto, for example, gets less snow than Buffalo, NY, and we're getting less with every passing year. Our driveway needed to be shovelled out only two or three times last year, no worse than our cousins' drives in the Detroit suburbs.
-
I am in awe of all human habitation north of Tennessee.
I once was in Ohio for the onset of winter, not tempted to do that often.
-
<<It's simple. As the market-oriented Fraser Institute in Vancouver, B.C., can tell you, Canada's vaunted "free" government health-care system cannot or deliberately will not provide its 33 million citizens with the nonemergency health care they want and need when they need or want it.>>
That's an old story. You wait longer for elective surgery than an American with a decent health plan waits for his or hers. That's just the cost of making sure that everybody in the country is covered and that the essentials - - the stuff that just can't wait - - is dealt with in a timely manner for everybody.
<<Average wait from time of referral to treatment by a specialist -- 17.8 weeks.
<<Shortest waiting time -- oncology, 4.9 weeks.>>
And again that is somewhat misleading - - if a GP thinks that there is a life-threatening or serious matter developing that needs immediate attention, the referral to the specialist is immediate. Same day or next day for really urgent cancer cases, and I know this from personal stories of friends and relatives. The average wait times are relatively meaningless since the average visit is non-urgent anyway. I don't know if there's a measuring technique for waiting times in urgent cases, but if there were, that's the measure that ought to be employed.
The wait for basic service can delay the first realisation of a problem , but that seems like a minor point to me , if the Canadian system is strictly a success it will ver likely be emulated by the US.
How much tho is the US helping the Canadian system succeed? After we convert to a simular system we will have no lternative to retreat to across the border .
-
<<The wait for basic service can delay the first realisation of a problem , but that seems like a minor point to me , if the Canadian system is strictly a success it will ver likely be emulated by the US.>>
Well, it's not a minor point, it's important but you have to realize we don't have a perfect system. In an ideal world, there wouldn't be a wait for any services. The longer waiting periods are usually for elective surgery,typically hip joint or knee joint, so there isn't any major missed diagnostic opportunity.
I don't think Canada's is the only system to consider. New Zealand I believe has a public health single-payer system, and I think there is one in Oregon, but I don't know how that works either.
<<How much tho is the US helping the Canadian system succeed? After we convert to a simular system we will have no lternative to retreat to across the border.>>
I figure the U.S. is taking up some of the slack in our system, but it really does not seem like a big factor to me.
-
"I figure the U.S. is taking up some of the slack in our system, but it really does not seem like a big factor to me.
This I don't know ,however much or little Canada benefits from US medicine, but it will be an entirely missing factorfor us if we were to attempt to emulate Canada so we need to learn how much it makes a difference.
Over the long term , will Canada produce the required number of Doctors and other medical personell to support its system ? The US already imports Doctors and Nurses and cannot be self supporting even though we promise wealth to candidate Doctors.
There must be a lag of many years in the problem of having enough Doctors , but since we are already insufficient can we risk a change that would make the profession less attractive and perhaps halt the inflow of expatriate talent we have become used to?
-
<<There must be a lag of many years in the problem of haveing enough Doctors , but since we are already insuffecient can we risk a change thatwould make the profession less attractive and perhaps halt the inflow of expatriate talent we have become used to?>>
Here's a really radical idea for you. Take the money that currently goes into the military for Iraq and other stupidities and invest it in education so that some of those millions of wasted lives from the inner cities actually get salvaged and can go on to medical school.
When you make the profession "attractive" by paying its practitioners obscene sums of money, what you get as doctors are a bunch of greedy, self-indulgent golfers and sailors who want to practice in California and Florida, work three-day weeks with four months off and drive the most expensive foreign cars that money can buy. I suggest you focus more on education, "fostering" people who care and who are concerned about "giving back" and give more people a shot at the profession.
-
<<There must be a lag of many years in the problem of haveing enough Doctors , but since we are already insuffecient can we risk a change thatwould make the profession less attractive and perhaps halt the inflow of expatriate talent we have become used to?>>
Here's a really radical idea for you. Take the money that currently goes into the military for Iraq and other stupidities and invest it in education so that some of those millions of wasted lives from the inner cities actually get salvaged and can go on to medical school.
When you make the profession "attractive" by paying its practitioners obscene sums of money, what you get as doctors are a bunch of greedy, self-indulgent golfers and sailors who want to practice in California and Florida, work three-day weeks with four months off and drive the most expensive foreign cars that money can buy. I suggest you focus more on education, "fostering" people who care and who are concerned about "giving back" and give more people a shot at the profession.
Albert Swietzer learned medicine in spite of beng wealthy already the people with such motivation will become usefull under any system , but are not adequite in number under any system.