DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: sirs on December 23, 2007, 09:07:02 PM

Title: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on December 23, 2007, 09:07:02 PM
The 1st amendment is pretty clear & concise as to its meaning regarding the so-called "seperation of church and state".  The Constitution prevents the Government from mandating anyone to follow a specific state sponsored religion, or to even establish one that everyone is to at least acknowledge as the Church of the U.S. 

It also provides FREEDOM of expression, where Government is supposed to be prevented from impeding or impairing one's ability to adhere to their religious doctrine/practices.  It's bad enough that the ACLU & like minds go apesnot when the word Christmas dares rear its ugly head in the classroom, but for State and Local Governments to even provide memos to their employees that they refraim from decorating their own damn cubicle with anything that remotely resembles anything religious, for fear of legal repercussions, is simply another example of Political Correctness completely abolishing the notion of freedom in this country

Now, I have my theories as to why, and the "slippery slope" arguement doesn't wash, since not more that 2-3decades ago, this country was far more "religious", in the public arena, such as school & government buildings, and we were no where close to some impending Fascist Theocracy or Communist state.  I think the reasons why are much more egregious & sinister than that, but don't expect anyone to fess up to it.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Cynthia on December 23, 2007, 09:58:51 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/12/22/sunday/main3641753.shtml
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Cynthia on December 23, 2007, 11:23:37 PM
In God's Name.

Poignant program, indeed.

Why do humans kill in the name of a God?

Where was God? They ask. In the other human being standing next to the dead and dying Horror brings up spirit to the surface. Faith in the land, in the "usual" no longer holds meaning....when it comes to the question of the meaning of life.

Glorious colors in the sunset and sunrise. Does God allow the dark skies to attend the services, as well?
Perhaps. Perhaps God is in the very element of cellular grief and in the essence joy of ecstasy.


We all seek something to sooth the soul. We all seek something to ease the pain. But, we don't all give enough to others. Isn't there more to faith than the accumulation of material grunge?

 
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on December 24, 2007, 06:48:13 AM
If your constitution is godless, which god do you serve?

If your clothes are godless, what God do you serve?

If your breakfast cereal is godless, which God do you serve?

=======================================
What sort of drivel is this? A Constitution has the purpose of defining the rights of citizens vis a vis their government. God has nothing to do with this.

People can believe in any god they wish, or none at all. They just need to respect the rights of others to do the same.

Freedom OF religion is also freedom FROM religion.

I fail to see why my coins have to declare that "We" trust in God, or why anyone must get involved in a pledge of allegiance to a flag or the nation it represents.
Christmas is basically a folk custom used to insure a net profit for businesses at the end of the year. Jesus was not actually born on Dec. 25 (that was some mythical being named Mythra), nor did Jesus at any point ask anyone to give gifts in his honor or memory.

As for the Magi's gifts, the gold was no doubt useful for Mary and Joseph to extend their travels. It seems pretty clear that old St. Joe, what with the trip to Bethlehem from Nazareth, and then on to Egypt, got rather a longer vacation than the miserly two weeks American semi-skilled workers (like carpenters) get these days. The Frankincense and Myrrh were things we have no particular use for, as we have better substitutes nowadays. Glade air freshener, embalming fluid, eve hari krishna incense all make for a better-smelling world than the one Jesus was born into, which was a pretty stinky place.

We never did hear what Jesus and family did with the gold, frankincense and myrrh, by the way. Perhaps it's time for a Congressional inquiry. But no, that would be too much interference of government into matters of faith, assuming gold, frankincense and myrrh are indeed matters of faith.

AS I have said before, God on the coins or God in the Pledge is too silly to waste time protesting it in any legal way. The same is true of Christmas. The ACLU is a very useful organization, but it has an overabundance of Jewish lawyers with grudges, a desire to gain local notoriety and too much time on their hands.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Amianthus on December 24, 2007, 10:07:03 AM
What sort of drivel is this? A Constitution has the purpose of defining the rights of citizens vis a vis their government. God has nothing to do with this.

A constitution defines the form and structure of a government. Some constitutions also describe the rights of citizens, but it's not a requirement.

Christmas is basically a folk custom used to insure a net profit for businesses at the end of the year.

Yeah, because we've always done taxes based on a calendar year.

(That was sarcasm, BTW. Most businesses, for much of human history, never ran on a calendar year, so your statement is "obviously" hogwash.)
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on December 24, 2007, 11:17:24 AM
Christmas is basically a folk custom used to insure a net profit for businesses at the end of the year.

Yeah, because we've always done taxes based on a calendar year.

============================================
Hence the constant references to "ending the year with a profit", one hears at this time on a daily basis.

Hence the term "Black Friday", which is when the ledger supposedly turns from red (in debt) to black (profitable).

I didn't say "business custom" or "accountant's custom" I said FOLK custom. Surely you know the difference.

The folk custom in the US is that the year round from Jan 1 to Dec. 31.

Other than the odd manger scene and the "Jesus is the reason for the season" bumperstickers, (which people for some reason leave on all year), there is very little religious content involved with Christmas. One might say that there is about as much Jesus in Christmas (the national holiday of wretched excess and materialism) than there is pilgrim in Thanksgiving.

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on December 24, 2007, 11:33:04 AM
Other than the odd manger scene and the "Jesus is the reason for the season" bumperstickers, (which people for some reason leave on all year), there is very little religious content involved with Christmas. One might say that there is about as much Jesus in Christmas (the national holiday of wretched excess and materialism) than there is pilgrim in Thanksgiving.  

Minus the completely irrelevent rant, not so surprisingly did nothing to address the original query
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on December 24, 2007, 11:56:17 AM
Minus the completely irrelevent rant, not so surprisingly had, did nothing to address the original query
===================================
I am not scared of Christmas. No one I know is scared of Christmas.

It is essentially a religious holiday which has morphed into a folk ceremony of overconsumption, which is pretty much the contrary of everything Jesus was about. In his time and place, overconsumption was pretty much inconceivable, actually.

The religious holiday is nothing to be scared of.

Neither is the wacko holiday it has morphed into anything to be scared of. At least neither I nor anyone I know is scared of it.


What do you mean by "not so surprisingly had"?

If you don't like my rants, don't read them.

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on December 24, 2007, 12:07:32 PM
Minus the completely irrelevent rant, not so surprisingly had, did nothing to address the original query
===================================
I am not scared of Christmas. No one I know is scared of Christmas.  

Obviously there are a throng of folks who are.  So scared, they're willing to wage legal war any and every time someone utters "Christmas" in class, wants to include a prayer prior to a football game, or wants to decorate their office cubicle with a nativity scene.  One then must ask why, which as I've already referenced has prescious little to do with the so-called "seperation of church & state" mantra


The religious holiday is nothing to be scared of.

You're right.  It shouldn't be, yet it the ACLU & like minds are petrified with it apparently


If you don't like my rants, don't read them.  

On the contrary, I thoroughly enjoy hilighting, not just rants, but irrelevent ones at that. I thank you for your continued & consistent contributions
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Amianthus on December 24, 2007, 01:19:22 PM
Hence the term "Black Friday", which is when the ledger supposedly turns from red (in debt) to black (profitable).

Just because you believe incorrect urban legends does not make them automatically true.

I didn't say "business custom" or "accountant's custom" I said FOLK custom. Surely you know the difference.

The folk custom in the US is that the year round from Jan 1 to Dec. 31.

Yeah, no one ever celebrated Christmas until the US came around to establish the standard book-keeping calendar as Jan-Dec. Only the US establishes folk customs... <big ol' eye roll> Even that didn't happen in the US until income taxes were established in the 20th century. Prior to that, the year was whatever the merchant decided it was, and most ended their years around harvest time. Some companies maintain that tradition, hence the ability to put in year ending dates on taxes forms.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on December 24, 2007, 01:28:22 PM
I don't think that the ACLU is frightened of Christmas at all. Most ACLU chapters are composed of lawyers, and here in Miami, lawyers named Greenblatt, Goldfarb, Schapiro and such, and they have constant fundraisers. When they went to private schools, some of them  run by Episcopals and Lutherans and the like, they resented being exposed to Jesus and all the Christmas stuff, and all their classmates got cooler presents and all they got were dredels and candy and it hacked them off and now it's PAYBACK TIME.

 To raise funds, they need a local cause, and what would be better than taking on rednecks and the people they elect. So that is what they do. It makes them feel more important and it gets local attention. They can't all go flying off to DC and Guantanamo to sue the government and the army, after all.

Then they have stuff to put in their newsletters, asking for more money. Being as they are lawyers, they are competitive as all Hell, and what could be worse for the Miami ACLU for it to get fewer dollars than the Broward ACLU or the Palm Beach ACLU? Fundraising is for these guys like football to commoners.

I belonged to the ACLU for a while, and mostly, all they talk about is fundraising and competition and how they don;t want some fool in the courthouse to get away with spending taxpayers' money on a Nativity scene for the courthouse lawn, which was also proposed by some courthouse politicians to curry favor with the voters.

It all boils down to a bunch of silly bull sh*t I, for one, don't care about.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on December 24, 2007, 01:38:48 PM
Yeah, no one ever celebrated Christmas until the US came around to establish the standard book-keeping calendar as Jan-Dec. Only the US establishes folk customs... <big ol' eye roll> Even that didn't happen in the US until income taxes were established in the 20th century. Prior to that, the year was whatever the merchant decided it was, and most ended their years around harvest time. Some companies maintain that tradition, hence the ability to put in year ending dates on taxes forms.

======================================
I did not say that the US established the custom of the year beginning on Jan 1st and ending on Dec. 31st. Go anywhere in the Western world and ask when the year begins and everyone will tell you this. Every calendar begins in January and ends in December, and Christmas is at the end of the year.

What the merchant does with his books is totally immaterial to the argument.

You must never watch the news around Xmas.

The taxable year ends on Dec. 31st, by the way. I suppose you think that they just pulled this date out of Woodrow Wilson's butt or something. No, it was choisen for a reason. My guess is that someone looked at a calendar.

And yes, I am aware that the Romans began the year in March, and the Persians still do. But this is immaterial to what I said, that the Xmas season is generally used by business to publicly declare that they had a good year (to the stockholders) and a not so good year (to employees expecting raises and bonuses).

When they start talking to the public about some Fiscal Year ending in April, then you know that they are engaging in flimflammery.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Amianthus on December 24, 2007, 01:47:38 PM
What the merchant does with his books is totally immaterial to the argument.

What the merchants do with their books IS the argument. You made the claim that they created Christmas so they could end the year with a "high note." Since many merchants did not end their years around Christmas time until the latter century, how can you possibly be correct? If they ended their years around harvest time, you could argue that Christmas was created to give merchants an early in the year boost, since the holiday would be early in their book-keeping years.

The taxable year ends on Dec. 31st, by the way. I suppose you think that they just pulled this date out of Woodrow Wilson's butt or something. No, it was choisen for a reason. My guess is that someone looked at a calendar.

Then perhaps you'll explain to me why the tax forms for personal use all say "for taxable year ending December 31, or ____"? And the business forms nearly all just have a blank for the year-ending date? They just made a mistake and left a blank on the forms that you're not supposed to use?

Even the federal government ended it's business year in July until very recently. And it still doesn't end in January, it ends in September.

Maybe Congress can't find the calendar you claimed that they used to set dates?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on December 24, 2007, 01:50:23 PM
Are you really supported the lie of the "war on christmas"?

Sheesh.

I've stated the problem with "In God We Trust" and the like many times and it also applies, after a fashion to people saying "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas".

The problem is not everyone celebrates Christmas and not every America believes in "God" or even a specific "god".  Atheists are the obvious exceptions (though most of us, from what I can tell, do celebrate it in some fashion or other) but what about Buddhists or Hindus?  Government should represent every American citizen equally.  References to "god", ostracizing prayer ceremonies in public schools and resolutions of the importance of Christmas from the congress are exclusionary of some citizens of the US and should be stopped dead in the tracks.

In my job, I tell people Merry Christmas all the time (if they say it first) and I don't even believe all that rut about gods and the like.  

The reason I don't come right out with it is the same reason most businesses don't want their employees doing it either: because it makes an huge assumption and it is exclusionary.

Saying Merry Christmas to a Hindu or a Buddhist is not so offensive that it would cause someone of those religions to burn the store down or report the employee or go home and cry in their coffee for a week but it might be enough to make that person of a different faith not want to come back to buy that pack of whitie tighties they'll need in a couple of months.  That's the whole point.

And could you please cite the case where the ACLU is trying to shut down the utterance of "Merry Christmas"?

And would you lump Condi Rice and George Bush into the Christmas hating crowd?

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/21/rice-joins-the-war-on-christmas/

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/20/bush-christmas/
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Cynthia on December 24, 2007, 01:53:06 PM
Interesting.

 I had a Christmas ball looking up the meaning of the gifts of Christmas.
I know that I am at best entertained by the ?discussions? here on the Gate, but allow me to share some video and a couple of articles.
Rant on fellas. I enjoy the read.
Merry Season to some and Merry Christmas to others.
Cynthia

From an article in the NYTimes, albeit 1992;

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE0D71E3BF933A15751C1A964958260


The Christmas Gifts
The gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh were also prophetic, speaking of our Lord's offices of king, priest, and savior. Gold speaks of His kingship; frankincense was a spice used in the priestly duties; and myrrh was an embalming ointment anticipating His death.
In the Millennium, He will also receive the gifts of gold and frankincense;" but no myrrh: His death was once and for all.
http://www.ldolphin.org/magi.html



Very fun videos. Hope they come out.
http://www.history.com/minisites/christmas

http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Generic&content_type_id=57097&display_order=2&mini_id=1290


Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on December 24, 2007, 01:59:46 PM
It is NOT about what the merchants do with their goddamned books. That is something for their accountants to ponder.

It is about their answer to the press to the question about "What kind of year was 2007", by which is meant the period between Jan. 1sta dn Dec. 31st, 2007.

It is rather like the popular crap about the stock market. The news always mentions the DJIA, which is only 30 large and rather arbitrarily selected companies in the US. The best indicators of the stock market in the US are other indices, like the S&P 500, and the Wilshire 4000 and 5000 and the NASDAQ.

The calendar year and the DJIA are what they feed the masses, because the various taxable years and fiscal years and market indices are just too complicated for the average clown to comprehend.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on December 24, 2007, 02:14:23 PM
A very nice compilation of the traditional tale. I had seem much of this before, but did not remember it all. Thanks.


Some thoughts on this:


In the Millennium, He will also receive the gifts of gold and frankincense;" but no myrrh: His death was once and for all.

=================================================
Sounds to me like the Magi were a bit off base with the myrrh, then. Jesus hardly used his myrrh. Maybe they had to go out and buy more myrrh to embalm him, because he really didn't stay dead for long, and probably not even long enough to stink. (Does a deceased perfect and divine being stink? That is one to ponder). There is no mention in the Gospel about Jesus or Mary saying, "wait, don't go out and buy any myrrh: we have some top-quality, Grade-A Myrrh from some Persians that dropped by a long time ago.

There is no mention of what Joseph, Mary and Jesus did with the gold or the Frankincense, either. WE have a lot of Biblical scholars roaming about, but they don;['t seem to care about this.

Most Christians I know would get really pissed if we were to suggest that Jesus was dead once and for all.

One wonders why Jesus and God need anyone to give them gold. I mean, all they have to do is create some, right? When you are omnipotent, you don;t need Visa or Mastercard: you just snap your fingers and *poof!*  Gold, Kruggerrands, Yen, Euros, Drachma, Renmin or Dollars, all you need. It's not like Treasury is going to nail the Almighty for counterfeiting, right?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on December 24, 2007, 02:20:57 PM
Are you really supported the lie of the "war on christmas"?

Ummm, no.  Did you read ANY of my query?  Why are so many so scared of Christmas?  As I said, I have my own theories, that I won't expect anyone to fess up to.


The problem is not everyone celebrates Christmas and not every America believes in "God" or even a specific "god".  

Fine, DON'T.  But you'll be hard pressed to find anything in the Constitution that says such folks have some right not to be offended by those who DO


And could you please cite the case where the ACLU is trying to shut down the utterance of "Merry Christmas"?

Never said specifically that.  the reference is how they go apesnot anytime Christmas, its theme, and its decorations, (and I won't even mention prayer) are being bandied about in either the classroom or even in Public office buildings, with the subsequent threat of civil litigation if such acts aren't stopped.  Nothing so specific as uttering "Merry Christmas"

Sheeeesh


And would you lump Condi Rice and George Bush into the Christmas hating crowd?

Why, are they active members of the ACLU, advocating lawsuits or legislation to abolish religion from the public arena, contrary to the Constitution?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Cynthia on December 24, 2007, 02:30:31 PM
Christmas is basically a folk custom used to insure a net profit for businesses at the end of the year.  


So, is the original point in question based on your statement....that  "Christmas, which is a folk custom is USED TO INSURE" (implying for the sole purpose of a gain in net profit)?


or,  do we read between the lines....to find that you possibly meant... "Christmas just happens to come as a matter of profitable convenience" ?


Just curious, as I have reread the posts on this thread,your statement seems to be the rib-bone of contention here.


If it is USED TO INSURE....then that implies that Chicken came before the golden egg.....


Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Cynthia on December 24, 2007, 02:35:15 PM
A very nice compilation of the traditional tale. I had seem much of this before, but did not remember it all. Thanks.


Some thoughts on this:


In the Millennium, He will also receive the gifts of gold and frankincense;" but no myrrh: His death was once and for all.

=================================================
Sounds to me like the Magi were a bit off base with the myrrh, then. Jesus hardly used his myrrh. Maybe they had to go out and buy more myrrh to embalm him, because he really didn't stay dead for long, and probably not even long enough to stink. (Does a deceased perfect and divine being stink? That is one to ponder). There is no mention in the Gospel about Jesus or Mary saying, "wait, don't go out and buy any myrrh: we have some top-quality, Grade-A Myrrh from some Persians that dropped by a long time ago.

There is no mention of what Joseph, Mary and Jesus did with the gold or the Frankincense, either. WE have a lot of Biblical scholars roaming about, but they don;['t seem to care about this.

Most Christians I know would get really pissed if we were to suggest that Jesus was dead once and for all.

One wonders why Jesus and God need anyone to give them gold. I mean, all they have to do is create some, right? When you are omnipotent, you don;t need Visa or Mastercard: you just snap your fingers and *poof!*  Gold, Kruggerrands, Yen, Euros, Drachma, Renmin or Dollars, all you need. It's not like Treasury is going to nail the Almighty for counterfeiting, right?




Gotta love your posts, XO...I must say they give me a chuckle.

Well, I do think from reading about the "gifts" that they were used for specific reasons. Not just for Jesus.

You're right about the Dead thing......but he was no longer a human on earth.....perhpas that's what was meant.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on December 24, 2007, 04:03:54 PM
I can imagine some Medieval scholars debating this for days. If Jesus is God, and Jesus is perfect and free from corruption, then he could not decay and rot, and therefore the myrrh was superfluous, so what was the point of the Magi coming?

Well, another would say, it was to herald that he was to be not just the King of the Jews, as it said on the Croiss, but King of all Mankind, hence there was representation and recognition from all Mankind in name of the Magi.

But the Magi were not completely aware of what the Messiah would be, being pagans and all, another would poiunt out.

Yet another monk would have to address the fact that the sign "King of the Jews" was written by Romans, in mockery, since Jesus was King of Everyone.

And so it would go, on and on, though not so entirely detailed as Talmudic scholars, who have always excelled at this sort of thing.

Now we have teevee and DVDs and CD's and be entertained without troubling our minds nearly so much. We just debate whether one of the chick in the three-chick chorus on "The Little Shop of Horrors" also played Tisha on Martin and what was her name, anyway?




Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on December 24, 2007, 06:51:17 PM
yeah they are all so scared of christmas
dont say "Merry Christmas" say "Happy Holidays"
It's not a "Christmas Tree" it's a "Holiday Tree"
They are not "Christmas Lights" they are "Holiday Lights"
Blah blah blah lets all vomit
funny how they all seem to enjoy the economics of CHRISTmas
but they don't want to admit it is CHRISTmas.
i wonder what's it's like to live a lie?

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on December 24, 2007, 06:59:45 PM
The ACLU does not file complaints on its own behalf.  They only file on the behalf of others.

If there is lawsuit against "Christmas", it is because someone from the community wanted one filed.

Why is it you crazy christians are so intent on ostracizing people?  Calling something a holiday tree or holiday lights is all inclusive and makes the holiday accessible to all.  You'd think that would make you all so happy, but it doesn't because people aren't celebrating the season the way you want it to be celebrated. 

It's all about hate for you people, isn't it?  Hate and control.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on December 24, 2007, 07:17:06 PM
Funny how they all seem to enjoy the economics of CHRISTmas
but they don't want to admit it is CHRISTmas.
i wonder what's it's like to live a lie?

-----------------------------------------------------------\

Christmas is actually Christ Mass, a Mass, or religious celebration commemorating the birth of Jesus.

But this holiday has come to mean something entirely different in modern American culture. The religious ceremony came to include a family feast in England and other European countries, and later, an exchange of gifts. Observe that in Dicken's tale "A Christmas Carol", even after mean Mr Scrooge became  Amazingly Kind Mr Scrooge, he did not present any gift other than a large goose to the Cratchett family. Timt Tim did not even get a new crutch, although it was indicated that at some later date, Scrooge would pay for medical treatments for the lad's crippled condition. There were no presents because presents were not yet a feature of Christmas, even in the 1870's when this tale was written.

Now, of course, Christmas has become a time for mass overconsumption and largesse. At no point did Jesus suggest that anyone celebrate his birth at all, let alone with mass gifting. He only suggested a form of ritual cannibalism at Eastertime. (This is my blood, drink in remembrance of me...this is my body, eat in remembrance of me).

There are many in the US who do not partcipate in the gifting: Jehovah's Witnesses, for example. And there are many others who choose to participate in the gifting, but reject the concept that Jesus was the Messiah, or is  third (or perhaps second)  part of a three-pronged Deity.

You are saying, if I do not misunderstand, that you feel that one must believe in Jesus and the whole Messiah bit on order to deserve to sit on Santa's lap, give or receive gifts, or wish one's fellow men a hearty Merry Christmas, or substitute a similar saying, such as "season's greetings" or "Happy Holidays", just because one is Jewish, Moslem, or simply a nonbeliever in the whole Jesus schtick.

But the thing is that most of what has come to be a Christmas tradition is pretty much entirely unrelated to the birth of Jesus, anyway. And trhen the meaning of Jesus birth seems a tad exaggerated here, because at the moment Jesus was born, pretty much the entire planet was entirely unaware both of the birth and the significance of said birth. I mean people carried on as they always had: they did not immediately feel the huge burden of Evil Sin lifted from their shoulders at the instant of Jesus birth, did they? No such claims are made in the Bible, so far as I have read.

The Bible only mentions the birth of an infant Deity, under unusual circumstances that probably did not seem too unusual at the moment of his birth, followed by the ostensible attempt at unsuccessful  multiple homicide and failed Deicide by the wicked Herod I.
 
What happened is that Jesus lived in almost total anonimity until about the time of his Bar Mizrtvah, around which he ran away from his parents and astonished a few Rabbis, and then he sank back into anonimity once more, only to surface for the last 12 to 24 months of his life.

So I am not sure why you feel so annoyed by those who celebrate Christmas without recognizing Jesus as Christians do, because that has become a far lesser part of the Christmas ritual.

Maybe some should celebrate Christmas, and the rest could simply celebrate Xmas.

I wish you all a Merry Christmas, as well as a most Merry Xmas as well! Ho !  Ho!  Ho!
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on December 24, 2007, 07:21:35 PM

It's all about hate for you people, isn't it?  Hate and control.

============================================
Control, yes, but not necessarily hate. It seems more like the more involved Christians are merely annoyed that others might place gifts under a recently deceased tree without acknowleging the virgin birth of a wee Deity among oriental magicians, visiting shepherds and their accompanying sheep, and other assorted livestock.

 
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on December 24, 2007, 08:52:04 PM
The ACLU does not file complaints on its own behalf.  They only file on the behalf of others.

Perhaps you missed the part where I made reference to the ACLU and LIKE minds, those being the ones who are offened to the point that they rally the ACLU to their cause, and the ACLU is quite happy to follow-up.


Why is it you crazy christians are so intent on ostracizing people?   

Why is it you crazy non-Christians are so scared of Christmas??  I can't help if someone else is "offended" by my faith.  That's their problem not mine.  And the Constitution is SUPPOSED to protect that right, but instead we have these loud minority getting offened and claiming to be "ostracized" at the mere appearance of a nativity scene on display in a classroom, or a cross in someone's office cubicle, when NO ONE IS MANDATING THAT THEY MUST FOLLOW SAID RELIGIOUS PRACTICES.  You can call a Christmas tree anything you want.  But legislating & litigating that others can't flies directly counter to the 1st amendment, if you hadn't noticed


Calling something a holiday tree or holiday lights is all inclusive and makes the holiday accessible to all.  You'd think that would make you all so happy, but it doesn't because people aren't celebrating the season the way you want it to be celebrated.   It's all about hate for you people, isn't it?  Hate and control.

AHHHHH, Brass starts to touch on the real nefarious theory I have of why so many are so scared of Christmas.  The fringe left and hard core PC crowd want a world where no one is ever offended, we all just become robotic automatons, all waving and moving at the same speed, make the same pay, same everything, where a Janitor makes the same amount as a multinational CEO.  And what kind of world does that produce?  One that is so much more easily controlled.  Everyone in a mind-numbing stupor, where those who know better (The Government, run by liberals & socialists of course) tell us what we need, when we need it, what we're to eat, how we're to act, how we're to spend our money, and of course if need be, spend it for us, ......all for the better of all of of course. 

No Brass, it has nothing to do with hate, it has everything to do with Freedom.  Our founders knew that, even way back when, which is why the 1st amendment was made the FIRST and most important one.  Freedom of Speech, and Freedom of expression, where Government is NOT to prevent either.  There is no right not to be offended by my beliefs, but there is an absolute right for you to allow me to practice them.  So, the control you leftists would love to embrace will NEVER happen with folks like myself populating this country.  That notion is dead in the water, which is why the 2nd amendment is the next most important right we have
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on December 26, 2007, 01:26:12 AM
Gotta be one of the most bizarre threads I ever came across, and in this group, that's really saying something.

The craziest assertion in the whole thread was that folks must be SCARED of Christmas if they object to publicly funded recognition of the holiday.  Talk about leaping to conclusions.  ACLU files against City Hall creche, therefore (no other explanation possible!) ACLU must be SCARED of the creche, or scared of the holiday it represents.  I guess by this kind of crazed "logic," anyone who files a suit against anythng must be doing it out of fear.  Fear is the universal motive behind all suits for injunctive relief.

For your information, sirs, people who do not adhere to the Christian religion are not necessarily "scared" of it, any more than they are "scared" of the Tooth Fairy or any other ludicrous BS that the naive and the uninformed choose to believe in.  Since the True Believers in the Christmas legend tend to have been a lot more lethal over time than the followers of the Tooth Fairy, there is good reason to fear them or at least to fear them taking control of any government that has powerful killing machines at its disposal.  The U.S. government is an excellent example of such a government.  However, there is little danger of them springboarding into power in the U.S. through the public display of nativity scenes or City Hall Christmas trees.

Here is a simple explanation that is much more plausible than your off-the-wall crypto-fascist ravings of dark underground conspiracies of non-Believers:  people who do not believe in the Christian religion are OFFENDED at seeing their own tax dollars put to work promoting it in the name of the whole community.  Because they are tax-paying members of that very community and they feel that such displays are disrespectful of themselves as Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists or whatever the f**k they happen to be.  They will donate generously to the ACLU or any other organization that will fight to stop this public disrespect for non-Christian religions, atheists, agnostics and others.  Because they don't like to be publicly insulted.

The Constitution of the U.S.A. is quite clear about this:  <<Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;>>  A public nativity scene requires a public expenditure of public funds and/or the use of publicly owned land; which in turn requires a law authorizing such expenditure or use.  Such a law if it tended to "establish" a religion, Christianity in this case, would be unconstitutional.  A religion is established, more or less firmly, according to how much support and encouragement, particularly public support and encouragement, it receives.  Using City Hall or federal or state property to support a Christian viewpoint, for example, by displaying a nativity scene, is "establishing" that religion.

So we have activity which is both offensive to many people and unconstitutional.  Naturally the ACLU is going after it.  If you don't like it, try to change the Constitution.  Get rid of the anti-Establishment clause.  Lotsa luck.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on December 26, 2007, 03:02:53 AM
So let's say there is a village green. And some folks want to get married on that green. And as part of that ceremony they have a minister officiate.

Is that

1. Offensive
2. Establishing
3. Unconstitutional use of public lands?

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on December 26, 2007, 09:10:56 AM
Good questions. 

Kinda reminds me of Freud's aphorism, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar," because sometimes a wedding is just a wedding.  Offensiveness really depends on purpose and intent.  If Mr. & Mrs. Joe Blow just want to get married there for sentimental reasons, of course it's inoffensive.  If their pastor goes into some rant about how Christians gotta start somewhere in reclaiming "their" public space and he won't marry any of his flock anywhere else BUT the village green, then it's the opening salvo in a war on non-Christian religions and atheists and it becomes highly offensive.

Whenever questions of intent and purpose are involved, the society has to be careful because nobody can read minds.  The possibility of innocent intent is there, as is the possibility of unscrupulous abuse by feigned innocence.  In a situation like that, I would think the proper response would be either of the following two alternatives:

1.  Yeah, sure, come one, come all and get married here if you wish.  Only in a purely secular setting - - the person officiating will be a municipal or state employee paid by the state (and reimbursed by you) following a strictly secular protocol.  No hymns, no religious symbols, etc.  Oh, what's that?  You'd like a little Jesus in your ceremony?  Nice touch, IMHO.  There's a place for stuff like that.  It's called a church.  Ever heard of it?

OR . . .

2.  Gee, Billy Bob and Lee-Ann, I'm so sorry but because some of the people who wanted to get married on this here village green wanted to do so under a 40-foot statue of Jesus and there's no telling what others might want in their ceremony, we've had to invoke the non-establishment clause and say no to everyone.  Why don't you just haul out the ole Yellow Pages and find yourselves a church, synagogue, mosque or temple of your choice, or even a good hotel or banquet hall like most everyone else does anyway and have yourselves one real helluva wedding right there?

I guess, in short, the potential for abuse is real and the precautions against it are realistic and reasonable.  All clearly within the framework of that wonderful document, the Constitution of the United States of America, a stench in the nostrils of "conservatives" everywhere.  Too bad for them.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Amianthus on December 26, 2007, 09:15:05 AM
[snippage]

You also posted a quote earlier: "The Constitution of the U.S.A. is quite clear about this:  <<Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;>>"

Don't both of your options violate the second part of that statement, serving to prohibit free exercise of religion?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on December 26, 2007, 09:32:55 AM
<<Don't both of your options violate the second part of that statement, serving to prohibit free exercise of religion?>>

I don't think so.  Is there some religion which requires of its believers that they must celebrate their weddings on public lands owned by citizens and paid for by tax-payers of all religions and no religions?  Not in this world.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: hnumpah on December 26, 2007, 09:54:36 AM
Quote
So let's say there is a village green. And some folks want to get married on that green. And as part of that ceremony they have a minister officiate.

Is that

1. Offensive
2. Establishing
3. Unconstitutional use of public lands?


Depends.

If the people being married are paying for the minister, who cares?

If he is being paid with public funds to hold a religious service, in other words, with my tax money, then I'd go for all three.

We had a problem here a year or so ago where the crime rate, particularly violent crimes, was going up. A group of churches wanted to hold a day of prayer. Not a problem. They wanted to hold it in the municipal auditorium. Not a problem. Well, it wasn't a problem, until the mayor and the city council donated the use of the auditorium, and the mayor began publicizing it as a day of prayer. That put them in the position of using a public facility and public money for a religious function. They tried to get around it by saying it was open to everyone, of all faiths, but still wanted to call it a day of prayer. The city spent over $130,000 in public money - tax money - for it, including printing up flyers, advertising it in the paper and on the air, and providing the venue, security and cleanup afterwards. The ACLU sued, and let them settle out of court. I'd have gone for repayment of every dime the city spent.

By the way, it doesn't seem to have worked. Our murder rate this year is higher than last year. I saw a report on the news the other night that the murder rate in some major cities is down considerably, in some cases to the lowest point in almost forty years. Maybe the good folks in Jacksonville city government would have been better served to put that money to use visiting these other cities and finding out what they are doing, other than providing prayer meetings.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on December 26, 2007, 01:57:50 PM
Quote
Depends.

If the people being married are paying for the minister, who cares?

Let's say a civic organization rented a portion of the green and the gazebo that sat on that portion of land and placed christmas decorations there, would that still be OK?

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on December 26, 2007, 02:20:57 PM
The 1st amendment is pretty clear & concise as to its meaning regarding the so-called "seperation of church and state".  The Constitution prevents the Government from mandating anyone to follow a specific state sponsored religion, or to even establish one that everyone is to at least acknowledge as the Church of the U.S. 

It also provides FREEDOM of expression, where Government is supposed to be prevented from impeding or impairing one's ability to adhere to their religious doctrine/practices.  It's bad enough that the ACLU & like minds go apesnot when the word Christmas dares rear its ugly head in the classroom, but for State and Local Governments to even provide memos to their employees that they refraim from decorating their own damn cubicle with anything that remotely resembles anything religious, for fear of legal repercussions, is simply another example of Political Correctness completely abolishing the notion of freedom in this country

Now, I have my theories as to why, and the "slippery slope" arguement doesn't wash, since not more that 2-3decades ago, this country was far more "religious", in the public arena, such as school & government buildings, and we were no where close to some impending Fascist Theocracy or Communist state.  I think the reasons why are much more egregious & sinister than that, but don't expect anyone to fess up to it.

Meh, y'all ignore the other half of the word mas = Mass, so I don't really feel that sorry for you to be perfectly honest.

And you won't dare touch the sacred cow that is the real reason Christmas is losing its religious value. So why bother asking the question in the first place?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Amianthus on December 26, 2007, 02:33:31 PM
I don't think so.  Is there some religion which requires of its believers that they must celebrate their weddings on public lands owned by citizens and paid for by tax-payers of all religions and no religions?  Not in this world.

Does government have the power to prevent a demonstration of faith by citizens just because it's on public land? After all, aren't those same citizens taxpayers as well? Seems like you're prohibiting "free expression" of religion to me.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: hnumpah on December 26, 2007, 02:36:29 PM
Quote
Let's say a civic organization rented a portion of the green and the gazebo that sat on that portion of land and placed christmas decorations there, would that still be OK?

Works for me, as long as it's not my tax dollars paying for it. If some group wants to put a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn, I have no objection, as long as public funds aren't involved, and as long as any other group that wants to pay to put something up there is allowed to. Any other group.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on December 26, 2007, 02:52:51 PM
The problem H & Tee have in this whole debate is the flawed notion that tax $$ = establishment.  It doesn't.  We have tax dollars going to all kinds of things I don't agree with, and we have prayers taking place before legislative sessions in congress.  NEITHER equate to establishing anything.  Nothing of the above mandates that anyone has to follow any specific or even general reliigion.  THAT is the foundation of the 1st amendment
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on December 26, 2007, 02:55:08 PM
Quote
Works for me, as long as it's not my tax dollars paying for it. If some group wants to put a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn, I have no objection, as long as public funds aren't involved, and as long as any other group that wants to pay to put something up there is allowed to. Any other group.

Sounds good.

Of course if i were the civic association point person i would negotiate a long tern rental agreement for the entire green during the time period needed.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: hnumpah on December 26, 2007, 03:09:46 PM
Quote
The problem H & Tee have in this whole debate is the flawed notion that tax $$ = establishment.  It doesn't.  We have tax dollars going to all kinds of things I don't agree with, and we have prayers taking place before legislative sessions in congress.  NEITHER equate to establishing anything.  Nothing of the above mandates that anyone has to follow any specific or even general reliigion.  THAT is the foundation of the 1st amendment

Not quite, genius.

The problem I have is that I am forced, by law, to pay taxes. I object to being forced, by law, to support religion, which is exactly what is happening when my tax money is spent for religious purposes.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: hnumpah on December 26, 2007, 03:23:48 PM
Quote
Sounds good.

So you would have no problem with Muslims putting up a display depicting Mohammed as the last true prophet of God? Or the Santorias putting up one depicting animal sacrifice? Or Satanists having a display on the town green? Or even Naturists having a nude display advocating their lifestyle?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on December 26, 2007, 03:32:10 PM
Quote
So you would have no problem with Muslims putting up a display depicting Mohammed as the last true prophet of God? Or the Santorias putting up one depicting animal sacrifice? Or Satanists having a display on the town green? Or even Naturists having a nude display advocating their lifestyle?

If they rented the green, and taxpayer monies were not involved, why should I?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Plane on December 26, 2007, 04:08:37 PM
We had a problem here a year or so ago where the crime rate, particularly violent crimes, was going up. A group of churches wanted to hold a day of prayer. Not a problem. They wanted to hold it in the municipal auditorium. Not a problem. Well, it wasn't a problem, until the mayor and the city council donated the use of the auditorium, and the mayor began publicizing it as a day of prayer. That put them in the position of using a public facility and public money for a religious function. They tried to get around it by saying it was open to everyone, of all faiths, but still wanted to call it a day of prayer.

What was the message to the criminals involved?

"Non Specific god will get you ."

"The community is "semi" united in favor of peace"

"Christians ,Jews , Muslims , Hindi and Pagans are met in agreement that they don't like being mugged and their respective gods and goddesses are being invoked in egalitarian fashion, Agnostics and Athiests agree on the anti mugging part for the most part and they will invoke logic and reason on the following day."


If it does not fit on a bumpersticker , the message is muddy. 

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on December 26, 2007, 04:43:41 PM
Ami - - <<Does government have the power to prevent a demonstration of faith by citizens just because it's on public land? After all, aren't those same citizens taxpayers as well? Seems like you're prohibiting "free expression" of religion to me.>>

If it has the power to prevent a Baptist preacher from leading the entire town council in a Baptist prayer at the commencement of every sitting, it has the power to prevent a group of Christians from setting up a creche on City Hall property.    Both are demonstrations of faith by citizens on public property and both violate the anti-establishment clause.

Of course the citizens are tax-payers as well, but they aren't the exclusive source of tax revenues and they don't have a right to treat the public's property as if they were.  (And even if they were the only tax-payers, the right of the citizen, tax-paying or not, is the primary right we have to concern ourselves with - - as long as there is one citizen represented by the government who is not on-board with the creche project, you will have a problem.)

There is no religion in the real world which believes in religious celebration on public property as an element of either religious practice or belief, so there is no prohibition of the free expression of any religion involved.  If there were such a religion, the anti-establishment clause would be in such obvious conflict with the free-expression clause that the entire provision would be totally ineffective.  It must have been clear to the framers of the Constitution that no such conflict could ever arise (because no such religion existed) - - otherwise they would have been writing a nullity, or worse, a "right" which would only have been enforceable only by any religion which claimed the right to publicly-sanctioned worship as an essential element of its theory and/or practice.

sirs - - <<The problem H & Tee have in this whole debate is the flawed notion that tax $$ = establishment.  It doesn't.  We have tax dollars going to all kinds of things I don't agree with, and we have prayers taking place before legislative sessions in congress.  NEITHER equate to establishing anything.  Nothing of the above mandates that anyone has to follow any specific or even general reliigion.  THAT is the foundation of the 1st amendment>>

It may well be that tax money is spent on many things you don't agree with, but which of those things is actually the establishment of a religion?  The issue isn't whether every citizen has to consent to where the tax revenues are being spent, but whether they can be spent to "establish" a religion.  BTW, the pre-session prayers ARE a violation of the anti-establishment clause, and a pretty blatant one at that, however it's so petty and low-cost that nobody bothers with it.  It shouldn't happen, though, and when I get through driving the U.S. forces out of Iraq, I will then see what I can do about abolishing those Congressional prayers.

It seems to me that over the years, the judicial interpretation of "establishment" - - as in the establishment of a religion - - has been broad enough to encompass such things as the creche on the City Hall stairs.  That's not to say there is only one way of interpreting the word.  Looks like the tide is running your way for the time being, but I don't think that's the way it's going to go over the long run.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Plane on December 26, 2007, 05:00:43 PM
Quote
It seems to me that over the years, the judicial interpretation of "establishment" - - as in the establishment of a religion - - has been broad enough to encompass such things as the creche on the City Hall stairs.  That's not to say there is only one way of interpreting the word.  Looks like the tide is running your way for the time being, but I don't think that's the way it's going to go over the long run.


Well stated!


Why should the interpretation of "establishment " be so broad?

Wasn't it narrow in the first place?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: hnumpah on December 26, 2007, 06:28:54 PM
Quote
If they rented the green, and taxpayer monies were not involved, why should I?

That's my point. If they want to pay their own way, even on public property, I don't have a problem with it. But when the government starts using my tax money to pay for the venue, or to hire a preacher, or to even hire someone to give a prayer at a city council meeting, then I do have a problem with it. It's bad enough I pay extra taxes because churches aren't taxed - they gotta make up the difference somewhere - but you can bet your damned bippy I'll raise hell when city hall not only supplies city property for a 'prayer meeting', but even pays to have it advertised as such.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on December 26, 2007, 06:56:34 PM
<<Why should the interpretation of "establishment " be so broad?

<<Wasn't it narrow in the first place?>>

I guess it's just life.  Time passes, things get more complex.  Lots of things start off narrow in the first place, then broaden out with time.  "Human being" or legal personhood was pretty narrowly defined in the Dred Scott case (I think the Supreme Court in its wisdom decided then that a black man was only three-fifths of a man) and now the whole thing of legal personhood has blossomed out to include blacks, Asians and even (gasp!!!) women.  I mean, Jeeeziz, is there no limit to these liberal judges and their stretching of the Constitution??

I think life starts off pretty simple, the "establishment" of a religion that would have been foremost in men's minds at the time the Constitution was written might have been the establishment of the Church of England as the "official" church of the realm, much to the disgust of Methodists, and others, to say nothing of the RCC, which itself was the "established" church of much of Continental Europe and Latin America.  So I would think that the leading concern would have been to prevent such an "establishment" in the U.S.A.  Later on, as historical and sociological understanding grew, we all became aware of more subtle means by which a particular religion might become "established," and steps were taken to prevent it, perhaps going beyond what the framers themselves had envisaged but nevertheless remaining true to the spirit and intent of the law.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: gipper on December 26, 2007, 07:01:12 PM
I would add to what Michael has said that the modern-day interpretation of the Establishment Clause is driven by the concepts that are embedded within the principle, which don't change, adapted to the factual context now existing, which does.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Christians4LessGvt on December 26, 2007, 07:01:32 PM
sirs
it's funny
lets pretend CHRISTmas is not about Christ
like lets pretend MLK Day is not about Martin Luther King
yeah lets change the name of MLK Day to something else
call it Holiday Day
lets live in fanatasy land and pretend reality is whatever we think it is


Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on December 26, 2007, 07:23:48 PM
<<lets pretend CHRISTmas is not about Christ
<<like lets pretend MLK Day is not about Martin Luther King
<<yeah lets change the name of MLK Day to something else
<<call it Holiday Day
<<lets live in fanatasy land and pretend reality is whatever we think it is>>

Or, on the other hand, why not just give up your misguided efforts to force Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, atheist and agnostic taxpayers to finance your own particular brand and celebrate it where it ought to be celebrated - - in your homes and churches, with your friends, families and religious leaders?

Or would that be too mature and sensible for you?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Amianthus on December 26, 2007, 09:52:43 PM
There is no religion in the real world which believes in religious celebration on public property as an element of either religious practice or belief, so there is no prohibition of the free expression of any religion involved.  If there were such a religion, the anti-establishment clause would be in such obvious conflict with the free-expression clause that the entire provision would be totally ineffective.  It must have been clear to the framers of the Constitution that no such conflict could ever arise (because no such religion existed) - - otherwise they would have been writing a nullity, or worse, a "right" which would only have been enforceable only by any religion which claimed the right to publicly-sanctioned worship as an essential element of its theory and/or practice.

Perhaps you should define "free exercise" for us.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on December 26, 2007, 10:17:03 PM
<<Perhaps you should define "free exercise" for us.>>

It means what most people think it means - - exercise of the religion without any restraints from Congress on how it's exercised.

This doesn't mean they can exercise their religion on my property, if they happen to believe my home is built on sacred ground.  It doesn't mean they can exercise their religion at will on John Q. Public's property either.

You seem to be under the illusion that all you need to interpret the Constitution is a copy of the document itself plus a good English dictionary.  I hate to disillusion you, but it's not quite that simple.  It's an art and a science, which is why good Constitutional lawyers are worth their weight in gold.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on December 27, 2007, 12:43:25 AM
Quote
The problem H & Tee have in this whole debate is the flawed notion that tax $$ = establishment.  It doesn't.  We have tax dollars going to all kinds of things I don't agree with, and we have prayers taking place before legislative sessions in congress.  NEITHER equate to establishing anything.  Nothing of the above mandates that anyone has to follow any specific or even general reliigion.  THAT is the foundation of the 1st amendment

Not quite, genius.

And yet again, with the xo style snark technique of debate.


The problem I have is that I am forced, by law, to pay taxes. I object to being forced, by law, to support religion, which is exactly what is happening when my tax money is spent for religious purposes.

Yet, according to the Constitution, you are not legally madated to follow ANY religion or to recognize any religion as some official religion of the U.S.  What your tax dollars go to is a plethora of things that you both support and don't support, just like mine.  But you be sure to get back to us when there's pending legislation ESTABLISHING the Church of America.....which again, is what the founders clearly were referencing when they put together that awesome piece of parchment. we refer to as the Constitution and its 1st amendment
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on December 27, 2007, 09:43:40 AM
(I think the Supreme Court in its wisdom decided then that a black man was only three-fifths of a man)

=====================================
Actually, this was not  Supreme Court decision at all. This is in the Constitution.
When they were deciding how to apportion representatives, the slave states had fewer free white males than the northern states, but if slaves were counted, then there were more people in the South. So they pragmatically declared that 3/5 of a male slave equalled one whole non-slave, and the two halves of the Union were once more equal to one another in Congress.

 
They figured that a free White male would vote in the interests of his wife and minor children (and those who didn't have the property to be qualified to vote), and a Southern slaveholder would vote in the interests of his slaves. Slaves were most often referred to as "servants", and were seen as big dumb children who were not qualified to act on their own behalf. In return for their salvation, this was seen as a fair deal. "For what should it benefit a man if he gaineth the world and loseth his immortal soul?" 

Indians counted as a full human being if they paid taxes, but those who were untaxed didn't count for squat.

The idea of declaring that a (male) slave was equivalent of 3/5th of a White freeman for the purposes of representation is generally seen as symbolic of American pragmatism.

Of course, in the Constitution, we were all seen as big dumb children, and not qualified to elect our leader without adult supervision, and the Electoral College was the result of that. That is how we came top get a big, dumb child as president as opposed to the much smarter Al Gore, who got more votes.

Turns out the people were wiser than the flipping Electoral College, which needs serious abolishing.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on December 27, 2007, 10:05:23 AM
Thanks, XO, for setting me straight on this.  My error probably arose in our American history class, when we studied the Dred Scott case, I probably conflated the text-book's report of the decision with its commentary that blacks were considered to be 3/5 human, and mistakenly remembered the case as being the source of the 3/5 rule.

In any event, from the Wikipedia article on the decision,

<<The only relevant question, therefore, was whether, at the time the Constitution was ratified, Scott could have been considered a citizen of any state within the meaning of Article III. According to the Court, the drafters of the Constitution had viewed all African-Americans as

<<    "beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations, and so far inferior that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect." >>

It's still a good illustration of the idea the Constitutional concepts can start out very narrow, and then broaden over time.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on December 27, 2007, 10:57:27 AM
(I think the Supreme Court in its wisdom decided then that a black man was only three-fifths of a man)

=====================================
Actually, this was not  Supreme Court decision at all. This is in the Constitution.
When they were deciding how to apportion representatives, the slave states had fewer free white males than the northern states, but if slaves were counted, then there were more people in the South. So they pragmatically declared that 3/5 of a male slave equalled one whole non-slave, and the two halves of the Union were once more equal to one another in Congress.

 
They figured that a free White male would vote in the interests of his wife and minor children (and those who didn't have the property to be qualified to vote), and a Southern slaveholder would vote in the interests of his slaves. Slaves were most often referred to as "servants", and were seen as big dumb children who were not qualified to act on their own behalf. In return for their salvation, this was seen as a fair deal. "For what should it benefit a man if he gaineth the world and loseth his immortal soul?" 

Indians counted as a full human being if they paid taxes, but those who were untaxed didn't count for squat.

The idea of declaring that a (male) slave was equivalent of 3/5th of a White freeman for the purposes of representation is generally seen as symbolic of American pragmatism.

Of course, in the Constitution, we were all seen as big dumb children, and not qualified to elect our leader without adult supervision, and the Electoral College was the result of that. That is how we came top get a big, dumb child as president as opposed to the much smarter Al Gore, who got more votes.

Turns out the people were wiser than the flipping Electoral College, which needs serious abolishing.


That's why the unwritten constitution is vastly superior.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on December 27, 2007, 12:53:20 PM
That's why the unwritten constitution is vastly superior.

======================================
The US has no "unwritten constitution", but the UK does.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both types. The Electoral College is an undemocratic anachronism that seems impossible to get rid of.
On the other hand, a simple majority in Congress could allow torture, or even make it compulsory if there were no written Constitution.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on December 27, 2007, 01:56:57 PM
An unwritten constitution is not equivalent to a complete lack of rights, at the same time a written constitution is no guarantee of the protection of said rights.

Quite clearly the unwritten constitution of the UK failed the Guildford Four (and many Irishmen during the Troubles). At the same time the U.S. written constitution was nothing but paper & ink to the blacks in the South from Reconstruction until well after the Civil Rights Movement (and arguably still today).

Yet, at least the UK has come to terms with her Empire (though there are still a few small elements that dream of the "glory days"). The United States is still full on in imperial mode, denying it publicly, but living it in reality - constitution notwithstanding.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: gipper on December 27, 2007, 02:30:57 PM
You ignore the common law tradition based on binding precedent. If the British system was satisfactory to establish private rights vis a vis each other in contracts, civil wrongs (torts) and property, there was at least a mechanism in place to do so in the arena of private rights vis a vis government power. The conceptual problem of limiting an omnipotent (sic) sovereign is not as difficult as recognizing that Parliament could change the "constitutional" rights with legislation. This is where tradition played a large role. Indeed, the Magna Carta, to the extent it reached, was considered a core set of principles, so core that it was relied upon during the Revolution as a claim of right.

As for America's written constitution, it is clear that it was struck as a compromise over slavery, deferring the day of reckoning. One lesson from the American Revolution stands starkly in construing even the most pertinent (which the original constitution was not as to slavery) written constitution: the anthropological truths of an era (the way people actually lived) play a large role in how rights vis a vis the government are understood. That is, once they debarked on the new land distant from the king and began arranging their own affairs, the colonies were destined to try the road of freedom, gradually implemented. Thus, as to slavery and a written constitution, the inertia of the way life was actually lived -- and in a sense its tradition -- played a huge role in the interpretation of our core document, to the extent it addressed the issue at all.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Plane on December 27, 2007, 05:45:13 PM
And yet  " Human  " and " Person " remain poorly defined  ,in cases where ambiguity grants convenience.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on December 27, 2007, 08:41:05 PM
So let's say there is a village green. And some folks want to get married on that green. And as part of that ceremony they have a minister officiate.

Is that

1. Offensive
2. Establishing
3. Unconstitutional use of public lands?



Clearly, no, as I have done exactly that.

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on December 27, 2007, 09:14:31 PM
Quote
Clearly, no, as I have done exactly that.

Were you not afraid that passerby might be offended by this blatant display of religiosity on public property?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on December 27, 2007, 09:44:55 PM
Quote
Clearly, no, as I have done exactly that.

Were you not afraid that passerby might be offended by this blatant display of religiosity on public property?

CLEARLY that constitutes an establishment of religion, we're all mandated to recognize, no?.  At least, that's what I keep being told
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on December 28, 2007, 10:37:23 AM
So, Sirs, you want to force Brass into admitting that his being married on the village green, to which no one objected at all, was wrong and offensive, so that you can jump on him for failing to recognize that it was right and inoffensive.

This is like strolling about with two pairs of boxing gloves shouting yo' Momma's at the populace, in hopes of a fight.

I hope it is fun for you. It seems rather pointless to me.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on December 28, 2007, 11:38:06 AM
Not at all.  I want to educate Brass (and like minds) that conducting some religious service, or performing some minor religious act, while on "public grounds" leads to nothing resembling an establishment of any state religion, that we're all to recognise and subserve to, like the Church of England, & that the 1st amendment was all about
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on December 28, 2007, 11:56:44 AM
Quote
Clearly, no, as I have done exactly that.

Were you not afraid that passerby might be offended by this blatant display of religiosity on public property?

No, I wasn't for it was not an advertisement for religion of any kind.  It was a temporary event and I paid a substantial fee and it was held during hours that the park is normally closed.

In fact, the only thing that might have even implied there was something religious going on was Reverend Dozier's collar.  (Side Note:  It would have been more in keeping with our  beliefs to have a government official of some kind perform the ceremony but we feared that they may not be able to encapsulate the abstract emotional side of the ceremony.  So, Michelle left it up to me and so I split the difference and found a Unitarian minister who would agree to not mention any deities of any kind.  I often tell the story of when I talked to him on the phone and explained our situation and he agreed to do the ceremony with a most understanding manner and we were finishing up exchanging details, I asked him if he wouldn't mind holding a live fish throughout the ceremony.  There was a short pause on the other end of the line and I just burst out laughing and said I was just kidding.  He laughed really hard and said, "What's so funny is I was just about to agree."  He was a really nice guy.  Haven't seen or heard from him since.)

Have a marriage in a public gardens during closed hours is not even remotely the same as hanging the ten commandments (the tenets of a religion and alleged direct words of a god) in a court of law.

You guys should try a different approach.  Try starting a movement to have all the government requirements for building codes removed from churches.  You could say that "man's law" has no place in the house of the old lordy.  You could say that it is "God's private property" and so he doesn't have to have elevator capacity signs or lighted exits or fire extinguishers anymore than any other personal residence.  No, especially because he's the most powerful being the universe.  That would be the exact slant to my argument from the religious fanatics' point of view.

Hey, churches already don't have to pay taxes.  Why not go for the whole enchilada?

I'll try to get my beliefs on religion/government spaces over to you once more with another explanation.

Let's say that BT, sirs and I are all bequeathed a hammer.  We didn't personally buy it and its not part of a business but we all need the hammer to hammer personal nails.  BT has the hammer, he hammers his nails and passes it on.  Sirs hammers some nails and leaves it where I can get to it when I need to hammer some nails.  Its all good.  The hammer is serving its purpose.

Then sirs comes around after church one day and says he's going to put a little sticker on the hammer that says "Hammering nails is part of God's Plan."  BT's like, "Ok, whatever."  But I'm an atheist and now I've got to make a choice.  Is it really worth it for me to complain over some stupid sticker or should I just ignore the sticker and go on hammering nails?  As I have done numerous other times, maybe I just go along to get along and say nothing.  It's just a stupid sticker, right?  It's still all good for the most part  and we're all still hammering nails with our hammer.  Cool.

But then something happens.  My kid sees me hammering nails one day and he says, "Who is god and why are you working on his plan?"  Now, we've got an issue.  There are so many things wrong with the situation and so many issues that now have to be resolved.  Suddenly, my idea of how I want to run my family (my personal choice) is being threatened.  Now, I have to spend time telling my kid the ins and outs of theism and atheism and explain to him why I'm utilizing a tool that is partly mine but bears information that he knows I patently think is nonsense.

The hammer whose purpose is to hammer nails is now a major issue in my life and sending shockwaves through the fabric of my family structure.  It's not as simple as saying, "Oh that's just something Uncle Sirs put on there but it doesn't mean anything."  Sure, I could just explain it away with that with a young kid but what if my kid is in his teens when he needs to be able to see his father as strong?

The real issue is not whether or not hammering nails is part of God's plan.  The real issue that I am no longer democratically equal to Sirs, and to a lesser extent, BT and the only way, in relation to the hammer (which belongs to all of us and none of us).  The hammer isn't something I paid for and neither did they but now, due to the sticker, it now appears to be more theirs.

That is not democracy.

The hammer is no longer simply a tool that we all use.  It is an advertisement for sirs' beliefs and it implies that anyone who uses the hammer subscribes to the message of the sticker or worse, should subscribe to the message.  The application of the sticker set in motion a division, a conflict.  Of course, if I never say anything everyone just assumes that I concur with the message of the sticker as I simply use the hammer to hammer my nails.  Those same people may then make decisions in relation to our trio through the prism of the perception of our beliefs.  Sure, those people may decide to help us hammer.  They may decide to hammer more of their own nails believing that it is a god's plan. 

I could potentially benefit from the misconception that I think hammering is a god's plan.

But, as we all know, that benefit will be small compared to the ensuing detriment and division caused by the conversations, disputes and arguments over the nature of hammering, god's plans (whose god, which god, what plan?) and stickers in general.  More over, the importance of the basic hammer's use, hammering nails, will suffer because there will be protests for more stickers on hammers everywhere.  And inevitably, there will be demands of removal of stickers from all hammers no matter to whom they belong as well there should; not because of the "tyranny of the minority" but because that is nature and intent of democracy: equality under the law. 

Government (formerly known as hammer) in a democracy must seek to represent all of its citizens in the purest level of equality possible.  Religion and Government must be separate for not all the citizens of this democracy agree to one single religious dogma therefore the official business of one must never affect the other.  Government must not dictate the beliefs/dogma of Religion and Religion must not dictate its dogmatic beliefs upon the Government that represents all people.  (Obviously, arguments can be made with this statement such as Thou shalt not kill which I daresay everyone can agree with though religious nuts seem to be the ones that take the greatest joy over the latest person to die on death row.  Its' easy to ignore God's Laws when you want to.)

Of course, if I believe that it is wrong to molest a child because it is inhumane and destroys a child's innocence and someone else believes that it is wrong to molest a child because it is a god's will that you don't THAT is agreement; therefore, our government should then make laws against child abuse and set proper punishments for said illegal act.  The law then will represent the beliefs of all of us that we condemn child abuse.

"The hardest thing for me is true simplicity," says a line from a Tim Curry song and for Americans, perhaps most Humans, it appears to be truth.  For the only rule anyone needs in this world to follow is "Harm None.  Do What You Will."

In regards to the stickers on hammers/10cc's in courtrooms, the simplest thing is to be respectful for what the real function of the space is, say hammering nails or conducting the business of a society of equals under the law and not try put that purity, that historical beauty, under the umbrella of someone's personal beliefs.

Can I get an "Amen"?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on December 28, 2007, 12:00:38 PM
Not at all.  I want to educate Brass (and like minds) that conducting some religious service, or performing some minor religious act, while on "public grounds" leads to nothing resembling an establishment of any state religion, that we're all to recognise and subserve to, like the Church of England, & that the 1st amendment was all about

I think you're trying to equate apples and oranges.

Having a bible-study session at the park is not the same as organized school prayer.

Each instance is separate and should be looked at separately. 

For instance, there was just this week a major broo-ha-ha over whether or not a council member should be allowed to have a Kwanzaa celebration in the council hall.  I'm still investigating and I'll let you know.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on December 28, 2007, 12:05:25 PM
Not at all.  I want to educate Brass (and like minds) that conducting some religious service, or performing some minor religious act, while on "public grounds" leads to nothing resembling an establishment of any state religion, that we're all to recognise and subserve to, like the Church of England, & that the 1st amendment was all about

I think you're trying to equate apples and oranges.

Not at all.  Establishment, means *watch this* establishment.  It means establishing a state recognized religion that everyone is to at least acknowledge, if not adhere to, which the founders deemed inappropriate and inconsistent with Freedom, thus the 1st amendment came about.  However, there is no amendment that gives you the right not to be offended by someone else's beliefs, which is what your beef is all about

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on December 28, 2007, 01:05:43 PM
And yet  " Human  " and " Person " remain poorly defined  ,in cases where ambiguity grants convenience.

============================
Really? Where would that be?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: hnumpah on December 28, 2007, 01:34:50 PM
Quote
It means establishing a state recognized religion that everyone is to at least acknowledge...

And how, pray tell, does using tax money to supprt a religious function not force those who pay taxes to ackmnowledge that religion? And again, no doubt everyone pays more in taxes, to make up for the tax exempt status of these churches anyway - how is that not forcing some sort of acknowledgement?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on December 28, 2007, 02:06:09 PM
Quote
It means establishing a state recognized religion that everyone is to at least acknowledge...

And how, pray tell, does using tax money to supprt a religious function not force those who pay taxes to ackmnowledge that religion?  

It establishes said religion no more than Congress using a chaplain.  Again, tax $$$ being used for a whole host of things, does NOT equate to ESTABLISHING SQUAT.  Legislation, Executive order and/or Judicial Decision would be what ESTABLISHES (you know, what the Constitution actually says) said religion, that everyone is to officially acknowledge.

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on December 28, 2007, 03:02:20 PM
Quote
The real issue is not whether or not hammering nails is part of God's plan.  The real issue that I am no longer democratically equal to Sirs, and to a lesser extent, BT and the only way, in relation to the hammer (which belongs to all of us and none of us).  The hammer isn't something I paid for and neither did they but now, due to the sticker, it now appears to be more theirs.

That is not democracy.

Actually it is.

Sirs votes yes. You vote no and i don't insist on removing the sticker, ergo i vote yes also.

2 to 1

Majority rules.

Democracy in action.

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Plane on December 28, 2007, 06:01:30 PM
Quote
..........so I split the difference and found a Unitarian minister who would agree to not mention any deities of any kind.

Hahahahahahahaa

That is so Unitarian !


A Babtist minister that agreed to that would be defrocked!
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on December 31, 2007, 08:52:47 PM
Not at all.  Establishment, means *watch this* establishment.  It means establishing a state recognized religion that everyone is to at least acknowledge, if not adhere to, which the founders deemed inappropriate and inconsistent with Freedom, thus the 1st amendment came about.  However, there is no amendment that gives you the right not to be offended by someone else's beliefs, which is what your beef is all about

You really never comprehend what I'm saying do you?  School prayer is not about being offended.  For me, it is about the school being what it is intended to be.  Every child receiving an education.  School prayer is an abuse of government resources by religion/theists to spread, or at the very least, maintain their beliefs or practices. 

That crosses the line of separation between religion and government.

If all the kids in a school want to practice a religious right every morning, then let them show up to the school grounds every morning and have a mass prayer in front of the shool rather than create an atmosphere of ostracization in the classroom even if it is for only ONE kid.

Then the line is not crossed and everyone gets what they want.  Have school prayer is tyranny of the majority.  It is just a big weight-throwing session for the christian majority.  When, in reality, the REAL majority is students, not christians therefore the every child and their beliefs should be respected by giving none the right to have a part of every students time at the school used for something that the school system is not for.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on December 31, 2007, 08:57:08 PM
[
Works for me, as long as it's not my tax dollars paying for it. If some group wants to put a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn, I have no objection, as long as public funds aren't involved, and as long as any other group that wants to pay to put something up there is allowed to. Any other group.

I absolutely agree.  And if any other group is allowed, they must be allowed equal apportionment of all the available.  So, if the courthouse law is 100 square feet, and 300 groups want to put up a display, then EVERY group, even the xmas group is only going to be apportioned a third of a square foot.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on December 31, 2007, 09:08:52 PM
No Brass, it has nothing to do with hate, it has everything to do with Freedom.

Exactly.  That's why NO ONE is "afraid of Christmas".  No one is stopping you from saying "Merry Christmas" and, in fact, I said it many times over the holiday.

What galls you is that businesses are trying to make a dollar by trying to include in all their customers in the good feelings of the holiday season.

If someone says to you "Happy Holidays", just say Merry Xmas back.  No one's losing.  You can't FORCE others to say Merry Xmas.

By demanding that businesses say "Merry Xmas" rather than "Happy Holidays", you're demanding special treatment as a victim.  Like Affirmative Action.

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on December 31, 2007, 09:11:59 PM
We had a problem here a year or so ago where the crime rate, particularly violent crimes, was going up. A group of churches wanted to hold a day of prayer.

Praying to end crime is like smoking to end lung cancer.

They should be holding a Day of Education.  A Day of Reading and Writing.  A Day of Arithmetic.  A Day of Parenting Counseling.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on December 31, 2007, 09:22:48 PM
Quote
They should be holding a Day of Education.  A Day of Reading and Writing.  A Day of Arithmetic.  A Day of Parenting Counseling.

Pretty sure that goes on 9 months out of the year. It's called school.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on December 31, 2007, 09:46:40 PM
Quote
They should be holding a Day of Education.  A Day of Reading and Writing.  A Day of Arithmetic.  A Day of Parenting Counseling.

Pretty sure that goes on 9 months out of the year. It's called school.


Then it would be 9 months and a day. And it would be a much better use of the time, now wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on December 31, 2007, 10:30:46 PM
What people do with their free time is up to them.

If they want to participate in a day of prayer so be it.

You ever wonder why the Governor of Georgia is mocked for praying for rain yet when Native Americans do a rain dance they are celebrated for their culture.


What's the difference? What's the harm?



Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on December 31, 2007, 10:39:40 PM
<<You ever wonder why the Governor of Georgia is mocked for praying for rain yet when Native Americans do a rain dance they are celebrated for their culture.>>

No, actually, I don't.  It's pretty clear to me that the Indians are performing a dance that is beautiful in its own right.  That it originated in the distant past as a prayer for rain does not mean that its participants today have any intention of making rain when they dance.  It's just a dance.  Whereas when the Governor prays for rain, he's making a fool of himself by (unlike the Indian dancers) actually trying to get it to rain and using a ludicrous method to do so.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on December 31, 2007, 10:43:36 PM
So you aren't a proponent of positive thinking, i take it.

I also noticed you dodged the what's the harm question.

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on January 01, 2008, 12:40:30 AM
It harms nothing if the Governor of GA prays for rain.

It may be silly, but the majority of the voters won't think so, ands if it rains, they will be saying 'see? see? The power of Prayer!'

I don't mind the Indians dancing, either.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on January 01, 2008, 12:51:43 AM
We have had rain 10 out the last 12 days. Go figure.

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 01, 2008, 03:07:58 AM
No Brass, it has nothing to do with hate, it has everything to do with Freedom.

Exactly.  That's why NO ONE is "afraid of Christmas".  No one is stopping you from saying "Merry Christmas" and, in fact, I said it many times over the holiday.

Sorry Brass, that's not flying.  What "galls me" is that the ACLU and like minds continue to press for the near, if not complete, abolishment of Christmas, and anything else remotely connected to Christianity from the public sector.  That flies directly counter to the 1st amendment, where Government is NOT to infringe upon another's religion.  So yes, they are absolutely afraid, which again goes to the core reason, control.  So much easier to control the masses if you can get everyone to think the same way, act the same way, no one is offended by what anyone else does, and Government will be your guide



Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: hnumpah on January 01, 2008, 10:03:40 AM
Quote
What's the difference? What's the harm?

Is the governor of Georgia on state time or his own free time?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on January 01, 2008, 10:30:39 AM
Sorry Brass, that's not flying.  What "galls me" is that the ACLU and like minds continue to press for the near, if not complete, abolishment of Christmas, and anything else remotely connected to Christianity from the public sector.  That flies directly counter to the 1st amendment, where Government is NOT to infringe upon another's religion.  So yes, they are absolutely afraid, which again goes to the core reason, control.  So much easier to control the masses if you can get everyone to think the same way, act the same way, no one is offended by what anyone else does, and Government will be your guide

=============================================================
The ACLU is not in favor of control by anyone.

As I said, most chapters consist of lawyers, and as a group they are very, very competitive, and in most cities, disproportionately Jewish. They compete with one another for attention, and the chapters also compete, and they all want local issues. One of the favorite of these involves the imposition of Christian symbols, rituals and the3 like on the society as a whole, because as I said, these guys are mostly Jewish and not generally religious if they are not.

I don't care about Christmas displays, carols, and such, and the governor can pray for rain or an abundant citrus harvest or a real estate boom all he or she wishes. This is a non-issue that threatens no one. There are hundreds of things more important than this "War against Christmas" thing.

It is a bogus issue. Put a tree or a manger in your yard, turn up the Bing Crosby, relax and enjoy. Or don't.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on January 01, 2008, 12:33:24 PM
The Governor doesn't punch a time clock.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 01, 2008, 12:43:26 PM
Sorry Brass, that's not flying.  What "galls me" is that the ACLU and like minds continue to press for the near, if not complete, abolishment of Christmas, and anything else remotely connected to Christianity from the public sector.  That flies directly counter to the 1st amendment, where Government is NOT to infringe upon another's religion.  So yes, they are absolutely afraid, which again goes to the core reason, control.  So much easier to control the masses if you can get everyone to think the same way, act the same way, no one is offended by what anyone else does, and Government will be your guide

=============================================================
The ACLU is not in favor of control by anyone.

Yea, right.  When you can and can't pray....how you can and can't decorate your own work cubicle.  Yea, no attempt to control there     ::)

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on January 01, 2008, 12:58:51 PM
You can pray silently anywhere, anytime you choose.

How many people have been arrested for decorating their cubicles again?
I suppose you might be reprimanded for decorating a cubicle with photos of Hitler and swastikas, or perhaps satanic images.
But Santa or Jesus?
I would say zero, none, bupkiss.

Even if they did tell you not to do it, why do you require religious stuff 24-7. Surely God knows you care. Idolators are few and far between these days.

This is a bogus issue.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 01, 2008, 01:29:34 PM
You can pray silently anywhere, anytime you choose.

NOT in many work cubicles, and sure as hell not in too many places on a public school ground.


How many people have been arrested for decorating their cubicles again?

We're not talking about arrests.  Never have been.  Been talking about litigation ($$$), being imposed or threatened, if companies or schools didn't take a greater effort in curbing such decorative displays.  Of course, you knew that.


This is a bogus issue.

Absolutely.  You have to wonder why so many are so scared of people daring to pray and decorate as they wish.  It's a bogus issue that such displays are threatening to those folks, and they sure don't "establish" anything other than someone getting their innards all a flitter with being offended
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on January 01, 2008, 01:31:55 PM
<<I suppose you might be reprimanded for decorating a cubicle with photos of Hitler and swastikas, or perhaps satanic images.
But Santa or Jesus?>>

I think the point is that if I can put Santa or Jesus in my cubicle, there's no legal reason in the world why the guy in the next cubicle can't put Hitler and swastikas in his. 

You're in the cubicle to work, not to pray and not to publicize your own brand of relgion or make others feel uncomfortable about their brand or lack thereof.  Just a simple question of basic consideration for the rights and feelings of others.  A little recognition that others beside yourself share the workspace and have to be there sharing it with you, like it or not.  To the "workers" who want to convert their cubicle into a manger scene, I'd say:  Spend 100% of your off-work hours on your knees in the house of worship of your choice, if that's what turns you on, and quit trying to piss off your co-workers by brandishing signs of a religion that they don't give a shit about in their faces.  They don't come to work to be confronted by pictures of the Tiny Infant Jesus, they come because they've got jobs to perform.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 01, 2008, 02:52:17 PM
<<I suppose you might be reprimanded for decorating a cubicle with photos of Hitler and swastikas, or perhaps satanic images.
But Santa or Jesus?>>

I think the point is that if I can put Santa or Jesus in my cubicle, there's no legal reason in the world why the guy in the next cubicle can't put Hitler and swastikas in his.   

Care to cite us this practiced religion of Hitler?  I'm not aware of any currently, so not sure how the 1st amendment in Government not infringing on religion, applies.  Please, share with us this practice, its congregation, and church locations, of you don't mind.  and no, some nebulous hyperbolic reference to neo-cons & conservatives, with amerikka being the church isn't going to suffice I'm afraid.

And what the hell business is yours to be offended by someone's christ child in their cubicle.  Be offended if you want, but as long as they're being productive in doing their job, and has no effect on there doing their job, that should be it, and what business of yours is it how they decorate their own cubicle.  Don't look at it

Yea, the party of "tolerance".     >:(
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on January 01, 2008, 04:53:58 PM
I refuse to recognize this as any sort of valid issue.

People can pray in any playground, in any classroom, in any cubicle. It they do so silently, no one even knows what they are up to, and why should anyone care?

In the university where I work, people have all sorts of stuff in their offices, and no onre has ever complained about any of it.

This is as close to an utterly bogus issue as any that every existed.

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on January 01, 2008, 04:58:38 PM
I think half the issue boils down to whetrher people have an inalienable right to not be offended.

I don't think they do.

But if they do, what is the remedy?

Chill expression?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on January 01, 2008, 05:20:14 PM
<<Care to cite us this practiced religion of Hitler?  I'm not aware of any currently, so not sure how the 1st amendment in Government not infringing on religion, applies.>>

BFD, so it's not Hitler.  The guy could post symbols from the Church of the Creator or the Church of Jesus Christ Christian, both of which are white-supremacist churches that preach anti-Semitism and that blacks are "mud people."  Who needs to put up with that shit in their workplace?  But if it's his religion, who's to say that YOU can put up the symbols of your religion but he can't put up the symbols of his?  That would be EXACTLY what the Constitution forbids, putting the government into the business of establishing your religion and undermining his religion.  Religion is a divisive force in the workplace and does not belong there.  No sane, normal, rational individual comes to work to pray or promote his or her religion.  My boss has no right to display offensive symbols to me at work or to permit co-workers to do so.  I am entitled to a workplace in which I do not have to be offended, and at the same time I have a duty not to offend others.


<<And what the hell business is yours to be offended by someone's christ child in their cubicle.  Be offended if you want, but as long as they're being productive in doing their job, and has no effect on there doing their job, that should be it, and what business of yours is it how they decorate their own cubicle.  Don't look at it>>

Same advice for the posters of The Church of Jesus Christ Christian?  Because frankly some posters don't affect me and others do.  I couldn't give a fuck about Tiny Baby Jesus pictures in anyone's cubicle, but any right that would permit them would also have to permit the white racist skinheads to put up their symbols of faith.  Some Protestant fundamentalists would be majorly rankled by public displays of the Pope's picture in their workplace.  Sure, I could live with that shit.  I could live with a fucking swastika for that matter.  But the issue is, in a publicly-funded workplace such as a government office, should I HAVE to put up with it?  Show me one fucking religion that preaches, "Display evidence of thy faith in thy workplace whether it pisses off thy co-workers or not?"  There is no such religion.  NOBODY'S religion is restricted when the display of images in a secular workplace is banned, because nobody's religion says they have to be displayed there in the first place.   That concern is totally bogus.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on January 01, 2008, 05:33:00 PM
I think half the issue boils down to whetrher people have an inalienable right to not be offended.

I don't think they do.

But if they do, what is the remedy?

Chill expression?


=========================================================

The remedy for me, were I to be so moved, would be to erect counter-posters of at least equal size and visibility in my own cubicle.  Now, being a nice guy, and in real life very tolerant of everybody's religion no matter how stupid it actually is, I probably wouldn't.  If my neighbour has the right to put up a crucifixion poster, I have the right to put one up with a prominent label underneath saying, "Fake!  Fraud!  Charlatan!"  Course, I'd have to be really pissed off before I went that far, and it doesn't particularly bother me that someone puts up a crucifixion poster, but the fact is that anyone who would be offended by the crucifixion picture has the option of (a) sulking in silence or (b) taking direct retaliatory action.  I don't think the workplace as a whole benefits from either scenario.  It makes sense, therefore, to simply keep the religion out of the workplace, except at special times like Christmas, when I always, for example, had an artificial Christmas tree (with aluminum foil leaves) with lights and ornaments set up in the reception area of my office.  Tell ya the truth, I always liked that tree.  Everyone liked it.  But still - - it's the principle that is at stake.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on January 01, 2008, 05:53:56 PM
You didn't answer the question.

In your opinion is there an inalienable right to not be offended.

If so why?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on January 01, 2008, 06:25:15 PM
I don't think there is an inalienable right not to be offended.  Offence being so subjective, there would be no practical way to enforce such a right.  What if I were to take offence at hearing Republican politicians speak, for example? 

The concept of offence crept into this thread in the context of significance - - was there any real significance to a breach of the anti-establishment clause, or was it something of no real consequence?  And as far as I can see, there are at least two arguments that would take the breach out of the "inconsequential" category - - the "slippery slope" argument and the "offence taken" argument.  And I think the "offence taken" argument was taken up by default without too much thought, because the "slippery slope" argument lacks any real immediacy and is so highly speculative.

But I'm not sure where you are going with this.  Because if I don't have a right not be offended, does that mean that you do have a right to offend me?  I think it's gotta go deeper than offence.  To that extent, you do have a point.

Why don't we go back to the basics - - what was the point of the anti-establishment clause in the first place?  The framers valued liberty, including liberty of conscience.  They didn't want a state church, which would be likely to shut down competing churches and thus force men to worship in a way or to a god they did not want, at the same time preventing them from worshiping in a way or to a god that they DID want.  This must have been highly obnoxious to the framers.  But WHY?  What's the big deal if I, for example, am required by law to go into a church, get down on my knees and pray to Jesus?  Where's the harm?  I would still believe in my heart of hearts that it's all a bunch of malarkey.  So what's the big deal?

The fact is, to a guy like me, there IS no big deal.  I'm not a believer in very much, I don't think God would give a shit one way or the other if I pretended to give in to a fake religion and worship their fake gods.  He'd understand all along that I really believed in him, even while I pretended to believe in the monkey or whatever the fuck they were worshiping.   Wasn't a big deal - - I'm small potatoes, a nobody in the cosmic scheme of things, I couldn't make God any bigger by worshiping him and I couldn't make him any smaller by worshiping the monkey.  So the anti-establishment clause couldn't have been intended for guys like me - - it had to have been for the benefit of the True Believers, the guys who give a shit, who'd put their lives on the line for the "honour" of their religion.  That being the case, the anti-establishment clause must have been made for the purpose of not giving offense to those who give a shit - - the religious ones, the True Believers.  Don't force them into somebody else's church, because for them it IS a big deal.  And don't turn their workplace into a shrine to somebody else's god or church.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on January 01, 2008, 06:58:49 PM
You seem to be be confused.

The anti-establishment clause simply means there will not be a Church of the United States no matter what denomination that was.

That's it.

It does not deal with the workplace. It does not deal with the states or cities. Some states still had official churches long after the constitution was ratified ( I think it was CT and i think the sect was the Congregationalists, but I'm not sure)

It simply means that there will not be an Official Church of the United States.

That is the constitution that was ratified. And the first has not been specifically amended.

Granted there are different interpretations of the constitution. A case in point would be the article RD posed about Privacy. That article stated that there is no constitutional right to privacy, yet Roe vs Wade says there is. I think people read the constitution the way they want it to read.






Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on January 01, 2008, 07:39:56 PM
<<The anti-establishment clause simply means there will not be a Church of the United States no matter what denomination that was.

<<That's it. >>

That is just not true.  "Establishment" has a much wider meaning than you would like it to have.

<<It does not deal with the workplace. It does not deal with the states or cities. Some states still had official churches long after the constitution was ratified ( I think it was CT and i think the sect was the Congregationalists, but I'm not sure)>>

That's  not true either.  There are so many ways in which the workplaces depend on Federal funding or other support, which would be withheld if the workplace subverts the anti-establishment clause because the Feds can't indirectly "establish" a religion by funding a workplace which "establishes" one.

<<Granted there are different interpretations of the constitution. >>

NOW you're beginning to make sense.

<<I think people read the constitution the way they want it to read.>>

Close.  There are two schools of though on how the Constitution was meant by the framers to be read - - narrowly or broadly.  And each school has its own theory to support it.  I think what happens when people who are not Constitutional lawyers get into the issues, they skip the complicated parts - - the Constitutional interpretation arguments - - and cut to the chase, i.e., they look at the end result.  They either favour it or they don't.  And they figure the judges used the same short-circuit that they, the public, did.  And you know what? with the new "conservative" Supreme Court judiciary, in the 2000 election, that's EXACTLY what happened.  Too bad.  They voted their political preferences and disgraced their robes.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: The_Professor on January 01, 2008, 08:03:12 PM
I refuse to recognize this as any sort of valid issue.

People can pray in any playground, in any classroom, in any cubicle. It they do so silently, no one even knows what they are up to, and why should anyone care?

In the university where I work, people have all sorts of stuff in their offices, and no onre has ever complained about any of it.

This is as close to an utterly bogus issue as any that every existed.



Ah, but you teach at a private institution, correct?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on January 01, 2008, 08:18:16 PM
Quote
That is just not true.  "Establishment" has a much wider meaning than you would like it to have.

Sure it is. The first congress hired chaplains and paid them.

Jefferson financed missionaries to the west.

So federal funding hs zip to do with it.


Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on January 02, 2008, 12:50:49 AM
<<Sure it is. The first congress hired chaplains and paid them.

<<Jefferson financed missionaries to the west. >>

Wow, I'm really shocked.  Unconstitutional acts by Congress?  Unconstitutional acts by the Chief Executive?  Who ever heard of such things?

The day that the Constitution is interpreted or defined by its violators will be a cold day in Hell, BT.  The system was set up so that not even Congress or the Chief Executive could override it, and the sad fact that both have not only been able to defy or circumvent it, but have gotten away with it as well, is no valid indicator of what the Constitution actually says.  For that, you have lawyers.  And judges.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on January 02, 2008, 01:06:22 AM
Quote
Wow, I'm really shocked.  Unconstitutional acts by Congress?  Unconstitutional acts by the Chief Executive?  Who ever heard of such things?

Apparently they aren't. Judges and lawyers have ruled on that issue.

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on January 02, 2008, 10:50:34 AM
<<Apparently they aren't. Judges and lawyers have ruled on that issue.>>

That's not the point.  You were citing the acts of Congress and the Chief Executive as though they would invariably reflect the correct interpretation of the Constitution.  The Constitution does not place such blind faith in the ability of the legislative and executive branches to follow it without deviation.  It actually foresees violations by both branches and provides the remedy for them as well.

In the particular cases to which you refer, if judges and lawyers have ruled that a Congressional chaplain is OK and that Jefferson could properly fund missionaries to the Indians, both rulings are ludicrous.  The Supreme Court has made its share of mistakes and in the fullness of time they were corrected.  So too will these mistakes be corrected over time, for IMHO, they are clearly wrong.


Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Amianthus on January 02, 2008, 11:47:46 AM
That's not the point.  You were citing the acts of Congress and the Chief Executive as though they would invariably reflect the correct interpretation of the Constitution.

Well, in the cases that BT cited, they were actions by the writers of the Constitution. Surely the writers knew they meant when they wrote it?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on January 02, 2008, 03:56:15 PM
Surely the writers knew they meant when they wrote it?

=======================================
They certainly did not have any position on 10th Commandment monuments, prayers before football games, and Nativity scenes on the Village Green, no.

They had no position on prayers at the start of each day in PS 123.

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on January 02, 2008, 04:02:02 PM
That is because they left those details up to the states.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on January 02, 2008, 05:34:31 PM
What people do with their free time is up to them.

If they want to participate in a day of prayer so be it.

You ever wonder why the Governor of Georgia is mocked for praying for rain yet when Native Americans do a rain dance they are celebrated for their culture.


What's the difference? What's the harm?

The harm is the waste of energy.  I wouldn't be supportive of a rain dance either.

The harm is they are hoping that some unseen force will take a hand in the situation when that unseen force hasn't done a god damned thing yet.

It is simply hoping things will get better as a opposed to making things get better by educating people.

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on January 02, 2008, 05:42:38 PM
I think half the issue boils down to whetrher people have an inalienable right to not be offended.

Well, you are wrong.  It is about abuse of power.  Apparently, you can't or refuse to see a difference between children praying on their own time (wherever, even in classrooms without disrupting the class) and have the class stand en mass and have a prayer led by the teacher or whoever.

The latter is an abuse of power.  Obviously, a child can sit out but that deliniates that child as "not like the others" and that is unfair under the law/government.  Each citizen has the inalienable right to equality under the law.  Whether you like it or not, the teacher's job, the classroom, the school are tools of government and law and must be applied equally and used equally under the law.

Hence, you cannot allow even the MAJORITY to utilize those tools in a manner for religious practice for there can be no enforcement of religion by the government.  Organized prayer is using public/government property to indoctrinate.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on January 02, 2008, 05:46:58 PM
No Brass, it has nothing to do with hate, it has everything to do with Freedom.

Exactly.  That's why NO ONE is "afraid of Christmas".  No one is stopping you from saying "Merry Christmas" and, in fact, I said it many times over the holiday.

Sorry Brass, that's not flying.  What "galls me" is that the ACLU and like minds continue to press for the near, if not complete, abolishment of Christmas, and anything else remotely connected to Christianity from the public sector.  That flies directly counter to the 1st amendment, where Government is NOT to infringe upon another's religion.  So yes, they are absolutely afraid, which again goes to the core reason, control.  So much easier to control the masses if you can get everyone to think the same way, act the same way, no one is offended by what anyone else does, and Government will be your guide

You've yet to prove that the ACLY wants to destroy/abolish christmas.  The only proof of that I've seen is people like you and Bill O'Reilly simply saying it is so.  That's hardly proof of anything.

Could you cite some document from ACLU that says, "We must abolish christmas at all costs"?

Saying Happy Holidays is simply a way to make more money for capitalist pigs.  If you don't like it, take it up with Macy's.

There simply is no war on christmas and no one is afraid to say it.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 02, 2008, 06:10:05 PM
No Brass, it has nothing to do with hate, it has everything to do with Freedom.

Exactly.  That's why NO ONE is "afraid of Christmas".  No one is stopping you from saying "Merry Christmas" and, in fact, I said it many times over the holiday.

Sorry Brass, that's not flying.  What "galls me" is that the ACLU and like minds continue to press for the near, if not complete, abolishment of Christmas, and anything else remotely connected to Christianity from the public sector.  That flies directly counter to the 1st amendment, where Government is NOT to infringe upon another's religion.  So yes, they are absolutely afraid, which again goes to the core reason, control.  So much easier to control the masses if you can get everyone to think the same way, act the same way, no one is offended by what anyone else does, and Government will be your guide

You've yet to prove that the ACLY wants to destroy/abolish christmas.  

As I've already prefaced, I don't expect anyone to fess up.  It's the actions we simply need to watch, as they validate pretty much the point being made.


Saying Happy Holidays is simply a way to make more money for capitalist pigs.  If you don't like it, take it up with Macy's.

I'll take it up with folks like yourself and the ACLU who via threat of litigation, have transitioned to the happy holidays PC bandwagon.  And if you hadn't noticed, its in no way limited to Dept stores, and much more pervasive all over the public workplace & school settings


There simply is no war on christmas and no one is afraid to say it.

True to the former, since no one's making that claim, but obviously NOT to the latter
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on January 02, 2008, 06:53:34 PM
<<Well, in the cases that BT cited, they were actions by the writers of the Constitution. Surely the writers knew they meant when they wrote it?>>

In the first place, I don't know with what degree of unanimity the framers of the Constitution supported either the Congressional chaplaincy or Jefferson's funding of the missionaries.

In the second place, the Constitution itself is bigger than the sum of its creators.  I don't think the creators themselves would have arrogated unto themselves any special powers or privileges as authors in interpreting the Constitution.  Once created, the document stands on its own.  It is put to a vote or ratified by the states.  I don't think in the ratification process, the state delegates who participate in the ratification process call upon the authors one by one to explain their innermost feelings about the meanings of each and every clause.  However formed or put together, the document is presented as a final draft, to stand or fall on its own, and as such it was ratified.  At that point, it became a document to be interpreted by the Courts, not by reference to the individual interpretations of the framers themselves or of any other individual outside the judiciary.

In Canada, as in Great Britain, the proceedings and debates of the Parliament are recorded in a document called (in both countries) "Hansard."  Although full records of the debates that precede the enactment of every piece of legislation are readily available, the courts are, as far as I know, not allowed to refer to Hansard to determine the meaning of any statute where the meaning is in dispute.  The theory being that the legislation stands on its own two feet, and must be interpreted as written, regardless of the intentions of the legislature that enacted it.  The same theory, IMHO, would make the opinions of the original draftsmen of the legislation even more irrelevant.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on January 02, 2008, 07:08:35 PM
I'll take it up with folks like yourself and the ACLU who via threat of litigation, have transitioned to the happy holidays PC bandwagon.  And if you hadn't noticed, its in no way limited to Dept stores, and much more pervasive all over the public workplace & school settings

Soooooo, any chance of EVER seeing you cite a case where the ACLU tried to abolish xmas or force everyone to stop staying merry xmas?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 02, 2008, 07:16:33 PM
I'll take it up with folks like yourself and the ACLU who via threat of litigation, have transitioned to the happy holidays PC bandwagon.  And if you hadn't noticed, its in no way limited to Dept stores, and much more pervasive all over the public workplace & school settings

Soooooo, any chance of EVER seeing you cite a case where the ACLU tried to abolish xmas or force everyone to stop staying merry xmas?

Considering I never made such a claim, the answer to that's gonna be "no".  It's always been under the guise of the so-called seperation of Church & State, and no one's gonna fess up to the real motives.  Why are you so scared, Brass?  Don't worry, I already know the answer.  Too bad we don't have any of those Government run re-education centers to correct my obvious psychopathic delusions of Christ
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on January 02, 2008, 07:19:19 PM
URL: http://www.aclu.org/religion/gen/33210res20071213.html
  
Christmas and the ACLU
 
The American Civil Liberties Union takes seriously its commitment to defending the First Amendment of the United States Constitution by not only working to ensure that "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion" but, just as importantly, by helping to guarantee that there be no "prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The ACLU is often better known for its work preventing the government from promoting and funding selected religious activities, but that is only half our charge. By ensuring that the government refrains from promoting religion or any particular faith, the ACLU helps ensure that freedom of religion and belief remains an important principle of our democracy.

For some, however, misrepresenting the ACLU when it comes to religion has become a holiday tradition akin to making eggnog and decking the halls with holly. Invariably during the run-up to Christmas, the ACLU is annually and wrongfully disparaged for waging a mythical "War on Christmas." In fact, the ACLU zealously defends the right of both non-believers to practice no religion at all and religious believers, including Christians, to practice their religion freely. And the ACLU?s zeal certainly does not take a vacation during the holidays.

Christmas displays, for example ? things like nativity displays ? are perfectly acceptable at homes and churches. Religious expression ? during the holidays and throughout the year ? is a valued part of the First Amendment rights guaranteed all citizens. But government should never be in the business of endorsing things like religious displays. Religion is best served when the government plays no role in promoting any particular holiday or any individual religious tradition. That job is best suited for individuals, families and religious communities. For when that decision is left in their hands, and kept out of the hands of the government, those who decide to are truly free to celebrate the religious holiday of their choice.


How The ACLU Didn't Steal Christmas (12/7/2005)

By Fran Quigley

When the angry phone calls and emails started arriving at the office, I knew the holiday season was upon us. A typical message shouted that we at the American Civil Liberties Union are "horrible" and "we should be ashamed of ourselves," and then concluded with an incongruous and agitated "Merry Christmas."

We get this type of correspondence a lot, mostly in reaction to a well-organized attempt by extremist groups to demonize the ACLU, crush religious diversity, and make a few bucks in the process. Sadly, this self-interested effort is being promoted in the guise of defending Christmas.

For example, the Alliance Defense Fund celebrates the season with an "It's OK to say Merry Christmas" campaign, implying that the ACLU has challenged such holiday greetings. (As part of the effort, you can get a pamphlet and two Christmas pins for $29.)
The website WorldNetDaily touts a book claiming "a thorough and virulent anti-Christmas campaign is being waged today by liberal activists and ACLU fanatics." The site's magazine has suggested there will be ACLU efforts to remove "In God We Trust" from U.S. currency, fire military chaplains, and expunge all references to God in America's founding documents. (Learn more for just $19.95 . . . )

Of course, there is no "Merry Christmas" lawsuit, nor is there any ACLU litigation about U.S. currency, military chaplains, etc. But the facts are not important to these groups, because their real message is this: By protecting the freedom of Muslims, Jews, and other non-Christians through preventing government entanglement with religion, the ACLU is somehow infringing on the rights of those with majority religious beliefs.

In truth, it is these website Christians who are taking the Christ out of the season. Nowhere in the Sermon on the Mount did Jesus Christ ask that we celebrate His birth with narrow-mindedness and intolerance, especially for those who are already marginalized and persecuted. Instead, the New Testament?like the Torah and the Koran and countless other sacred texts?commands us to love our neighbor, and to comfort the sick and the imprisoned.

That's what the ACLU does. We live in a country filled with people who are sick and disabled, people who are imprisoned, and people who hunger and thirst for justice. Those people come to our Indiana offices for help, at a rate of several hundred a week, usually because they have nowhere else to turn. The least of our brothers and sisters sure aren't getting any help from the Alliance Defense Fund or WorldNet Daily. So, as often as we can, ACLU secures justice for those folks who Jesus worried for the most.

As part of our justice mission, we work hard to protect the rights of free religious expression for all people, including Christians. For example, we recently defended the First Amendment rights of a Baptist minister to preach his message on public streets in southern Indiana. The ACLU intervened on behalf of a Christian valedictorian in a Michigan high school, which agreed to stop censoring religious yearbook entries, and supported the rights of Iowa students to distribute Christian literature at their school.

There are many more examples, because the ACLU is committed to preserving the constitutional guarantee of religious freedom for all. We agree with the U.S. Supreme Court's firm rulings that this freedom means that children who grow up in non-Christian homes should not be made to feel like outsiders in their own community's courthouse, legislature or public schoolhouse.

To our "Merry Christmas" correspondents and all other Hoosiers, we wish you happy holidays.

Fran Quigley is executive director of the Indiana Civil Liberties Union, www.iclu.org. As of January 1, 2006, the organization is changing its name to ACLU of Indiana.


A fictional 'war on Christmas'
By T. Jeremy Gunn
Last December, a group called Public Advocate for the United States (which claims to defend America's traditional family values) sent some Christmas carolers over to sing in front of the ACLU offices in Washington.
Carrying signs reading "Merry Christmas" and "Please Don't Sue Us!" ? they also seem to have carried with them some rather strange imaginings about an assault on Christmas. (Related: Law doesn't mandate a secular Christmas | The year's dust-ups)

I don't know what the carolers thought might happen.

To tell the truth, the ACLU is not often serenaded by Christmas carolers. So it was with some excitement that the staff went outside and joined in the singing. They brought with them cookies and warm drinks to share. One staff member, who is an ordained Baptist minister, did a little witnessing about his faith to some astonished proponents of family values.

Fox News did broadcast the event (as a part of its "war against Christmas" campaign). Although the visiting singers were shown, the cameras failed to include any footage showing that everyone had participated in the caroling. Rather than reporting the facts, the anchor preferred the propaganda: "We believe the ACLU heard the message loud and clear, but they don't care."

The battle cries

This year, several groups are once again introducing the Christmas season with some heated and misleading military rhetoric. Some declare, "There is a war against Christmas!" One group launched a "Friend or Foe Christmas Campaign." One particularly bizarre charge is that there is "a thorough and virulent anti-Christmas campaign." Without a shred of evidence, they pretend that there is an effort afoot to remove "God" from the Declaration of Independence. Two groups even announced that they have assembled hundreds of lawyers to protect Christmas against this imaginary threat.

Make no mistake about it. These warrior-lawyers are not asking us to love our neighbors (and certainly not our enemies), nor to turn the other cheek, nor to be peacemakers, nor to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.

Nor is this a joyful effort to encourage the Christmas spirit in the millions of places where it can be promoted without any conflict: in people's hearts, in their homes, with families, in churches, or with friend and neighbors.

No, this is a campaign of military-infused rhetoric demanding that everyone accept one politically correct version of "Christmas."

For example, this year in Boston ? the same city where Puritans once prohibited the pagan-inspired "Christmas tree" ? the new Puritans now demand that the city call its evergreen spruce a "Christmas tree," and they threatened a lawsuit if the city didn't comply.

Another group charges that there is a "campaign of fear, intimidation, and disinformation" against seasonal symbols in Raleigh, N.C. ? and they offer to provide a defense for the city against any threatened lawsuit. Yet they give no evidence that anyone is threatening a lawsuit. Before accusing others of engaging in "disinformation," perhaps these Christmas warriors should first take a look in the mirror.

Why this desire to manufacture controversy ? about Christmas?

Guidelines already exist

Rather than engaging in propaganda about a "war on Christmas," all who want to promote the spirit of Christmas should remember a couple of simple guidelines.

First, Christmas displays ? including nativity scenes ? are perfectly acceptable at homes and churches. This religious expression is a valued and protected part of the First Amendment rights guaranteed to all citizens.

Second, governments should not be in the business of endorsing religious displays. Religion does best when government stays out of the business of deciding which holidays and religions to promote. Religion belongs where it prospers best: with individuals, families and religious communities.

And finally, as a seasonal greeting to all Christians: Merry Christmas from the ACLU! And for believers in all other traditions: Thank you for enriching our world!

T. Jeremy Gunn is director of the ACLU Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief.
  
Find this article at:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-12-18-gunn_x.htm  
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on January 02, 2008, 07:22:52 PM
Considering I never made such a claim, the answer to that's gonna be "no".  It's always been under the guise of the so-called seperation of Church & State, and no one's gonna fess up to the real motives.  Why are you so scared, Brass?  Don't worry, I already know the answer.  Too bad we don't have any of those Government run re-education centers to correct my obvious psychopathic delusions of Christ

Clearly, your thread's point (if it ever had one) has found no traction and so you're just resorting to silliness.

And what have I to fear?  I wish you would tell me what I've said that makes you think that I'm afraid of christmas.  Especially since I've said more than once that I say it all the time?

But I do agree that you are delusional in your beliefs about Jesus.  I'm glad we don't have government run re-education center though. 
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 02, 2008, 07:23:18 PM
URL: http://www.aclu.org/religion/gen/33210res20071213.html
  
Christmas and the ACLU
 
The American Civil Liberties Union takes seriously its commitment to defending the First Amendment of the United States Constitution...

Yea, by pushing litigation directly contrary to it.  Way to go ACLU     >:(


Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 02, 2008, 07:31:05 PM
Considering I never made such a claim, the answer to that's gonna be "no".  It's always been under the guise of the so-called seperation of Church & State, and no one's gonna fess up to the real motives.  Why are you so scared, Brass?  Don't worry, I already know the answer.  Too bad we don't have any of those Government run re-education centers to correct my obvious psychopathic delusions of Christ

Clearly, your thread's point has found no traction and so you're just resorting to silliness.

Naaa, just applying typical leftist hyperbole, since it's kinda ridiculous to repeat the point for the 127th time.  Though as has been noted before, you clearly believe such faith is completely delusional.  And my guess, if given the Governmental resources, you'd probably try to foster some form of "education" to help with those poor delusional folks


And what have I to fear?  

Excellent question.  Somehow, people praying, decorating their workplaces with nativity scenes while not bothering anyone else, etc, offend the hell out of you and like minds.  So much so, you have no problem with folks like the ACLU running rough shot, with the mere threat of litigation, directly counter the clear intentions of the Founders, when they put toether the 1st amendment to the Constitution.  Though again, I pretty much have a grasp as to the fear.  Less able to control us delusional folks


Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: hnumpah on January 02, 2008, 07:31:32 PM
Don't worry about it, Brass. They gotta make somebody the boogerman, or there wouldn't be anybody for their precious savior to save them from.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on January 02, 2008, 07:40:28 PM
URL: http://www.aclu.org/religion/gen/33210res20071213.html
  
Christmas and the ACLU
 
The American Civil Liberties Union takes seriously its commitment to defending the First Amendment of the United States Constitution...

Yea, by pushing litigation directly contrary to it.  Way to go ACLU     >:(

Thank you for your baseless opinion.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on January 02, 2008, 07:45:44 PM

Excellent question.  Somehow, people praying, decorating their workplaces with nativity scenes while not bothering anyone else, etc, offend the hell out of you and like minds.  So much so, you have no problem with folks like the ACLU running rough shot, with the mere threat of litigation, directly counter the clear intentions of the Founders, when they put toether the 1st amendment to the Constitution.  Though again, I pretty much have a grasp as to the fear.  Less able to control us delusional folks

I'm totally open to the idea that I may be wrong but you would really have to provide some kind of indication that the ACLU has sued or threatened to sue anyone about saying Merry Christmas or practicing christmas or something.

Just something other than your vitriolic word.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on January 02, 2008, 08:21:08 PM
Don't worry about it, Brass. They gotta make somebody the boogerman, or there wouldn't be anybody for their precious savior to save them from.

Totally.

What's really odd is how the right is constantly whining about groups asking for special consideration (like african-americans and affirmative action) then they turn around claim victimhood when everyone isn't wishing them a Merry Christmas at every turn.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: hnumpah on January 02, 2008, 08:46:37 PM
Quote
...then they turn around claim victimhood when everyone isn't wishing them a Merry Christmas at every turn.

Martyrdom by proxy - their savior supposedly suffered on the cross, so to show their allegiance to him, they have to feel they are suffering some sort of persecution themselves. Even if it's only imagined.

I would never want to be a member of a group whose symbol was a guy nailed to two pieces of wood. - George Carlin
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on January 02, 2008, 09:41:00 PM
So much so, you have no problem with folks like the ACLU running rough shot, with the mere threat of litigation, directly counter the clear intentions of the Founders, when they put toether the 1st amendment to the Constitution.

=============
I believe the actual expression is "running rough SHOD" rather than "running rough shot" To be roughly shod would entail wearing jackboots or other footwear that might be particularly uncomfortable to those being run over.

---------------------------
True, this is triviial, bit I believe less so than the entire issue of the bogus "War on Christmas".
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 02, 2008, 10:57:57 PM

Excellent question.  Somehow, people praying, decorating their workplaces with nativity scenes while not bothering anyone else, etc, offend the hell out of you and like minds.  So much so, you have no problem with folks like the ACLU running rough shot, with the mere threat of litigation, directly counter the clear intentions of the Founders, when they put toether the 1st amendment to the Constitution.  Though again, I pretty much have a grasp as to the fear.  Less able to control us delusional folks

I'm totally open to the idea that I may be wrong but you would really have to provide some kind of indication that the ACLU has sued or threatened to sue anyone about saying Merry Christmas or practicing christmas or something.

Sure would be nice if you'd cease claiming something, I ever said.  But when one has nothing to back themselves up with, one must do, what one must do apparently.  In this case keep repeating something that was never said by myself, unless the "something" you want has to do with requirements made by ACLU-like litigants that Christmas decorations, and Christian oriented acts/decorations be prevented from going up in public work places & schools.  Gads, it's make one get nauseous when the ACLU threatened to take the City of L.A. (or some Southern CA city) to court, because there was a tiny cross, on the much larger emblem on the door, of the patrol car.  Absolutely asanine

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on January 03, 2008, 12:06:14 AM
<<Gads, it's make one get nauseous when the ACLU threatened to take the City of L.A. (or some Southern CA city) to court, because there was a tiny cross, on the much larger emblem on the door, of the patrol car.  Absolutely asanine>>

Great idea, the police cars should be emblazoned with images of the True Cross.  That's really reassuring to the Muslims, Buddhists, Jews and Hindus of the city.  "Sir, please get down on the ground face down with your wrists crossed behind your back.  The soldiers of the One True Cross are here to protect your filthy infidel ass."  Who needs a professional, secular police force when you could have instead the Enforcers of the Lord Jesus' Word to enforce  - - with total impartiality of course - - the law of the land over all its citizens of every race, colour and creed?  Hilarious.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on January 03, 2008, 12:23:45 AM
WWJT ~ Who would Jesus Taze?

The city of New Orleans uses the fleur de lis, a sign of the Resurrection. I have yet to hear any ACLU complaints about that.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 03, 2008, 12:24:59 AM
<<Gads, it's make one get nauseous when the ACLU threatened to take the City of L.A. (or some Southern CA city) to court, because there was a tiny cross, on the much larger emblem on the door, of the patrol car.  Absolutely asanine>>

Great idea, the police cars should be emblazoned with images of the True Cross.  

You must have missed the part where it was a tiny cross, only visisble to someone who had to look really closely.  Oh, and perhaps you also missed the part where Los Angeles is translated from the Catholic "The Angels".  So, when are you pushing for the name change, Tee??  I mean, it has to be very insultive to Muslims & Buddhists, right?  a whole damn city named thru the Catholic faith.  All the Los _____, San ______, and Santa ______ are all Catholically derived names.  Where's the outrage??

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on January 03, 2008, 12:29:27 AM
Insultive?  Is that anything like outrageful?

I like the straw man technique you use: make up silly cases the ACLU has never suggested and them assault them mightily.

This continues to be a totally bogus issue.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on January 03, 2008, 12:42:59 AM
Fleur de lys, as far as I know, was the emblem of pre-Revolutionary (i.e. Royalist) France.  Since most of the French settlers in North America had arrived before the French Revolution, when they wanted to represent their French heritage, they chose the fleur de lys rather than the tricolore.  To tell the truth, I never heard of the fleur de lys being representative of anything but the ancien regime.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on January 03, 2008, 12:59:59 AM
<<You must have missed the part where it was a tiny cross, only visisble to someone who had to look really closely. >>

No, but you must have missed another chunk of real life, bringing your experience of it down to maybe 2% of your total waking hours.  In real life, once you know that a design includes a particular design element, no matter how small it is, when you see the design, you know that the design element is there too.

Oh, and surprise!! both Jews and Muslims also believe in angels.  So there's nothing particularly Christian in that concept.  Christians  didn't even invent the idea - - they lifted it from the Jews. 

For your future information, the words "Los" and "Las" are the masculine and feminine plural forms of the English word "The," so there is nothing at all Catholic about them.  "Las Vegas," for example, means simply "The Meadows."  "Los Alamos," "The Poplars."  Unless the Catholics are nature-worshipers, there is nothing particularly Catholic in either of those names.

"San" and "Santa" are of course indicative of sainthood.  San Francisco for example is named after St. Francis.  Santa Catarina, St. Catherine.  I think whenever a city is named for a person, that person had some kind of religion.  You might as well argue that Washington D.C. is a Protestant religious name because George Washington was a Protestant.

Your arguments are getting beyond silly, but I understand.  Desperation can do funny things to a man's power of reasoning.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on January 03, 2008, 01:34:37 AM
Most of the cities along the coast of California were founded as missions by Franciscan priests.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on January 03, 2008, 07:35:28 AM
<<Most of the cities along the coast of California were founded as missions by Franciscan priests.>>

Even sirs must have figured that out at some point - - according to his loony-tunes idea of how the ACLU supposedly thinks,  the Franciscans should either (a) not have founded any cities at all or (b) named them all after famous scientists, explorers or athletes.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on January 03, 2008, 09:40:29 PM

I believe the actual expression is "running rough SHOD" rather than "running rough shot" To be roughly shod would entail wearing jackboots or other footwear that might be particularly uncomfortable to those being run over.

---------------------------
True, this is triviial, bit I believe less so than the entire issue of the bogus "War on Christmas".

Indeed the expression is "running rough shod" and I wanted to point that out to sirs, but I knew he would seize on it as some kind of dodging of his "true discussion" (which is entirely bogus).
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on January 03, 2008, 09:43:43 PM
Gads, it's make one get nauseous when the ACLU threatened to take the City of L.A. (or some Southern CA city) to court, because there was a tiny cross, on the much larger emblem on the door, of the patrol car.  Absolutely asanine

SOURCE?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 03, 2008, 11:41:12 PM
I wish to thank Tee & Xo for demonstrating again the point being made, that of multiple names of cities and towns named for Saints and Angels, predominantly by Christian Missionaries & Priests.  Somehow there's no outcry or outrage that such cities & their governments could be offensive to Muslims, Atheists, & non-Christians, while Tee (& like minds) go apoplectic about a small cross, in the background of Police Car door seal.  Again, the Hypocrisy is staggering, though not surprising

and to answer Brass, here are just a few links about the story;

Article (http://republican.assembly.ca.gov/members/a71/index.aspx?page=OPED&OPED=946)

Article (http://www.claremont.org/publications/pubid.347/pub_detail.asp)

Article (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38933)

Article (http://www.markdroberts.com/htmfiles/resources/crosscontroversy.htm)

Article (http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/simple/index.php/t6660.html)
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Amianthus on January 03, 2008, 11:49:34 PM

I believe the actual expression is "running rough SHOD" rather than "running rough shot" To be roughly shod would entail wearing jackboots or other footwear that might be particularly uncomfortable to those being run over.

---------------------------
True, this is triviial, bit I believe less so than the entire issue of the bogus "War on Christmas".

Indeed the expression is "running rough shod" and I wanted to point that out to sirs, but I knew he would seize on it as some kind of dodging of his "true discussion" (which is entirely bogus).


It's nitpicking on a spelling or grammatical error. I thought you guys didn't like nitpicking?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Cynthia on January 03, 2008, 11:51:59 PM
Sirs, PC....you would certainly get my vote if you were to run for any office. ha!

You stand up tall, dear man...every time. Thanks for the stance you take each and every time. I have read you now for 6 years ...and you never fall behind.  You are one who steps up to the plate more than most here....good going.

Great "sources".



Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Cynthia on January 03, 2008, 11:54:37 PM
"I thought you guys didn't like nitpicking?"

Those who "nitpick" have very few berries to pick in any race.

I would chalk it up to running out of gas, Ami.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 04, 2008, 04:14:11 AM
Thank you kindly, Miss Cynthia     8)
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on January 04, 2008, 08:23:06 AM
<<I wish to thank Tee & Xo for demonstrating again the point being made, that of multiple names of cities and towns named for Saints and Angels, predominantly by Christian Missionaries & Priests.  Somehow there's no outcry or outrage that such cities & their governments could be offensive to Muslims, Atheists, & non-Christians . . . >>

History's a bitch, eh, sirs?  Yes, the city of San Francisco, and many other Californian cities were founded by Franciscan monks.  And, yes, they named the cities they founded after saints.  What a surprise!  Who did you expect them to name their cities after?  Heretics?  Perverts?  Criminals?

Now, of course, here's the rub:  apparently NOBODY is offended by that.  Possibly because people have a reverence for history and the idea of roots in the land that transcends their feelings about religion.  People might like to be reminded that the bustling city of concrete, steel, asphalt and glass didn't always exist, that it goes back in time to a little mission village.  Just as people living in cities with Indian names (Toronto, Mississauga, Chicago) like to think that the history of the land they inhabit also goes back many centuries, way before Columbus, and that many people with many stories to tell lived there before them.  Even when you change a geographical name by law, the inhabitants will stubbornly resist, calling it by the name they know because whatever their origin, that name has become a part of their own background, their own histories.  How many New Yorkers refer even today to "The Avenue of the Americas?" 

The name of one's city is everywhere - - on public property, on private property, in the name of the school district you and your children attended, in the fabric of your own identity - - whether you are a Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, etc., you are nevertheless a San Franciscan and that is how you identify yourself to the people you meet in your travels anywhere in the world.  On the contrary, the objectionable Nativity Scene is NOT a part of your identity, your school system or anything else, and it occurs annually or otherwise on only the property of YOUR government - - there's nothing inevitable about it, your folks maybe took you every year to see it or maybe you never saw it in your life. 

Of course, YOU are fundamentally unable to appreciate the distinction between place names, which do not result from the actions of any living legislators,  and active, present-day religious actions such as building a Nativity Scene.  Sadly, by failing to recognize the feelings of actual people in real-life situations, by drawing the parallel you did, you have demonstrated yet again how ideology blinds you to reality and to common sense - - the reality in this case being that people do not feel any religious significance based on the religious history of name-places and that despite the historical origins of the name being rooted in religion, the names are just not in fact seen as religious symbols by any significant number of the citizens. 

Of course there are exceptions - - when a name is changed under very contentious circumstances, (think of the change from St. Petersburg to Leningrad,) the old feelings don't die down so fast, and the name DOES have both religious and political potency.  It WILL be changed as one faction or the other gains the upper hand. 
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 04, 2008, 11:31:19 AM
Gotta love that rationalizing hypocrisy        :D
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on January 04, 2008, 12:07:11 PM
Out of pure curiosity Sirs, why does this stuff bother you but you can play semantics with "coercive interrogation" tactics and defend the brutal policies of a non-Christian state like Israel with ease?

I'm not nit-picking your arguments as much as pure curiosity over your priorities.

As a Christian, I could honestly care less whether a police department has a Christian symbol on there seal. Indeed, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't want Christianity to be represented by most police forces if I could bother to care that much about it.

And yes, many cities in the United States and especially South America are named after Saints, but it isn't as though Protestants pay any heed to that (or know who most of them are!). There are also a number of streets in the United States (mostly in the Northeast) named after Bobby Sands. How many Americans know who that is? How many would be offended if they did?

I don't see where this line of debate wins anything for Christianity. Moreover, it seems to detract from Christianity's main theme which is God's Love.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 04, 2008, 12:32:39 PM
Out of pure curiosity Sirs, why does this stuff bother you but you can play semantics with "coercive interrogation" tactics and defend the brutal policies of a non-Christian state like Israel with ease?

Interesting tangent to try and apply to this thread.  Preferrebly, this question belongs in a completely seperate thread, since it's not even apples & Oranges.....it's Apples and Wine.

My "priorities" are to this country 1st and foremost.  As I've already hypothetically referenced, this campaign to try and abolish being offended (since it has prescious little validity with the 1st amendment) is an insidious effort to control more and more people, with the government being the ultimate guide to a country full of automotons. 

Your question about Isreal is completely out of Left field.  Isreal is not america, nor are they practicing, near to your perception IMHO, such brutality of Palestinians, nor do I defend any overt actions of violence or discrimination by Isreal.  I do defend their right to exist, right where they are, and with the borders they have.  when you're surrounded by countries and elements that have been trying to destroy you since the sun rose, your prone to make some excessive choices & judgements in your attempt to survive.  Are some of those choices over the top?  Probably.  Do some of their policies unfairly hurt Palestinians?  Probably  Is it apartheid precisely like South Africa?  No.  But, as i said, that could be better served discussing in a new thread


Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on January 04, 2008, 01:32:40 PM
*sigh*

No, no, no.

I'm not trying to get into a discussion on Israel. I'm asking about your priorities. Christianity is certainly not a nationalistic religion. Christ did not die for Americans or the United States. Moreover, it is not a religion of pure symbolism to be used by police departments, city governments, or automobile owners.

My question, which you failed to answer, is why do you care about such things? Do you really and earnestly believe that you are helping to take Christ's message to others by arguing that Christmas is under attack?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: The_Professor on January 04, 2008, 01:41:19 PM
Out of pure curiosity Sirs, why does this stuff bother you but you can play semantics with "coercive interrogation" tactics and defend the brutal policies of a non-Christian state like Israel with ease?

I'm not nit-picking your arguments as much as pure curiosity over your priorities.

As a Christian, I could honestly care less whether a police department has a Christian symbol on there seal. Indeed, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't want Christianity to be represented by most police forces if I could bother to care that much about it.

And yes, many cities in the United States and especially South America are named after Saints, but it isn't as though Protestants pay any heed to that (or know who most of them are!). There are also a number of streets in the United States (mostly in the Northeast) named after Bobby Sands. How many Americans know who that is? How many would be offended if they did?

I don't see where this line of debate wins anything for Christianity. Moreover, it seems to detract from Christianity's main theme which is God's Love.
defend the brutal policies of a non-Christian state like Israel with ease?

Shall I quote you Scripture on supporting Israel, JS?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on January 04, 2008, 01:52:17 PM
Out of pure curiosity Sirs, why does this stuff bother you but you can play semantics with "coercive interrogation" tactics and defend the brutal policies of a non-Christian state like Israel with ease?

I'm not nit-picking your arguments as much as pure curiosity over your priorities.

As a Christian, I could honestly care less whether a police department has a Christian symbol on there seal. Indeed, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't want Christianity to be represented by most police forces if I could bother to care that much about it.

And yes, many cities in the United States and especially South America are named after Saints, but it isn't as though Protestants pay any heed to that (or know who most of them are!). There are also a number of streets in the United States (mostly in the Northeast) named after Bobby Sands. How many Americans know who that is? How many would be offended if they did?

I don't see where this line of debate wins anything for Christianity. Moreover, it seems to detract from Christianity's main theme which is God's Love.
defend the brutal policies of a non-Christian state like Israel with ease?

Shall I quote you Scripture on supporting Israel, JS?

Shall I quote you scripture on loving one another Professor? On helping those who are poor (as opposed to forcing them into deprivation)? On loving one's enemy?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: The_Professor on January 04, 2008, 01:56:05 PM
No, you don't. I also concur that is a priority. But, like people, nations are a combination of good and bad. You take the bad with the good. Granted, you work to mitigate the bad and accenuate the good.

You make it sound as if Israel as a nation only commits heineous crimes. Israel, as a State, also performs valuable services for many as well, not only in the confines of the Jewish state.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on January 04, 2008, 02:06:48 PM
No, you don't. I also concur that is a priority. But, like people, nations are a combination of good and bad. You take the bad with the good. Granted, you work ot mitigate the bad and accenuate the good.

You make it sound as if Israel as a nation only commits heineous crimes. Isral, as a State, also performs valuable services for many as well, not only in the confines of the Jewish state.

Israel is full of wonderful people who do wonderful things I am sure.

The Government of Israel has done horrendous things and has set about a policy that is completely unjustifiable.

Most South Africans were not terrible people or even terrible Christians.

The South African Nationalist Governments did horrible things and set about horrible policy that was completely unjustifiable.

I recognize the differences, rest assured. Just as in South Africa, many Israelis are beginning to recognize the problems in their own country.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: The_Professor on January 04, 2008, 04:36:46 PM
JS, I hope that the tendency you see in Israel is incorrect. If the Israelis let down their guard for an instant, the surrounding nations will kill them to the last man, woman and child. Yes, I know you do not believe that. Neither did the Jews in Europe during WWII, even when they heard rumor after rumor after rumor. Israel made a huge mistake in nor fighting in Lebanon like Romans and will probably pay for that lack of ruthlessness. A nation soft in war can easily find itself a nation no longer. And, yes, I know you and MT et al, do not believe that either. That is perfectly fine.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on January 04, 2008, 04:51:29 PM
JS, I hope that the tendecny you see in Israle is incorrect. If the Israelis let down their guard for an instant, the surrounding nations will kill thme to the last man, woman and child. Yes, I know you do not believe that. Neither did the Jews in Europe during WWII, even weh nthey heard rumor after rumor after rumor. Israel made a huge mistake in nor fighting in Lebanon like Romans and will probably pay for that lack of ruthlessness. A nation soft in war can easily find itself a nation no longer. And, yes, I know you and MT et al, do not believe that either. That is perfectly fine.

The Jews fought the Romans and look what that got them. They chose violent insurrection and the Romans absolutely obliterated Jerusalem and a large segment of the Jewish population.

It is not about being "soft in war." It is about how you treat your fellow man. It was not right for South Africa, it was not right for Alabama, it is not right for Israel. I don't believe that God justifies it in any of those three cases, nor do I believe His Son teaches us to accept it. You may not like the word 'apartheid' as Sirs does not, but that's just semantics. The actions are identical and no one, after all these years of seeing such injustices perpetrated on people, should accept any government setting such policies let alone defending them!
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 04, 2008, 05:01:22 PM
My question, which you failed to answer, is why do you care about such things? Do you really and earnestly believe that you are helping to take Christ's message to others by arguing that Christmas is under attack?

Why do I care that Christianity is trying to be driven completely out the Public sector, and insidiously out of the workplace, specifically counter to the clear intentions of the Founders and wordings of the 1st amendment??  That's an issue you wonder why I care about??

And one last time, I'd defy you to show me where I ever referenced "Christmas under attack".  In fact, i've made specific quotes refuting precisely that.  The comments I've made have been consistently as to inquiring so many of the ACLU like minds are scared of Christmas, and religion in general, as personified by the links to the ACLU story targeting the county of Los Angeles & their squad cars of 30+yrs.  So, why this Brass-like attempt to claim something I never did, is beyond me
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Plane on January 04, 2008, 05:16:20 PM
JS, I hope that the tendecny you see in Israle is incorrect. If the Israelis let down their guard for an instant, the surrounding nations will kill thme to the last man, woman and child. Yes, I know you do not believe that. Neither did the Jews in Europe during WWII, even weh nthey heard rumor after rumor after rumor. Israel made a huge mistake in nor fighting in Lebanon like Romans and will probably pay for that lack of ruthlessness. A nation soft in war can easily find itself a nation no longer. And, yes, I know you and MT et al, do not believe that either. That is perfectly fine.

The Jews fought the Romans and look what that got them. They chose violent insurrection and the Romans absolutely obliterated Jerusalem and a large segment of the Jewish population.

It is not about being "soft in war." It is about how you treat your fellow man. It was not right for South Africa, it was not right for Alabama, it is not right for Israel. I don't believe that God justifies it in any of those three cases, nor do I believe His Son teaches us to accept it. You may not like the word 'apartheid' as Sirs does not, but that's just semantics. The actions are identical and no one, after all these years of seeing such injustices perpetrated on people, should accept any government setting such policies let alone defending them!

In "Romeo and Juliet"there is a fight sciene between the Capulet's an Montague's nd Romeo , by trying to prevent his cousin from fighting , makes him vulnerable to attack.

In the real world there is a struggle for dominance between Palestinians and Israel , to look at one side only is unrealistic.

The Palestinians are suffering worse than the Israeli , this is known as "loosing", but one side will loose , if not both.

In recent history there was a majority of Isrelis who voted for a peace platform and Rabin made a start in the direction of reconcilement. Can the Palistinians ever vote for a peace platform?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on January 04, 2008, 05:21:29 PM
My question, which you failed to answer, is why do you care about such things? Do you really and earnestly believe that you are helping to take Christ's message to others by arguing that Christmas is under attack?

Why do I care that Christianity is trying to be driven completely out the Public sector, and insidiously out of the workplace, specifically counter to the clear intentions of the Founders and wordings of the 1st amendment??  That's an issue you wonder why I care about??

And one last time, I'd defy you to show me where I ever referenced "Christmas under attack".  In fact, i've made specific quotes refuting precisely that.  The comments I've made have been consistently as to inquiring so many of the ACLU like minds are scared of Christmas, and religion in general, as personified by the links to the ACLU story targeting the county of Los Angeles & their squad cars of 30+yrs.  So, why this Brass-like attempt to claim something I never did, is beyond me

I've worked in the public and private sector and I've had crosses as well as Our Lady on my desk and on my PC without any problem whatsoever. I travel through towns and see plenty of Nativity scenes on church lawns, there are Christmas parades, and more. So yes...why do you care? If some police department has to change their seal, who cares? I don't think that I want Christianity linked with the LAPD anyway, thank you very much!

Again, I'll ask...does this line of debate help spread Christ's message?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on January 04, 2008, 05:30:25 PM
JS, I hope that the tendecny you see in Israle is incorrect. If the Israelis let down their guard for an instant, the surrounding nations will kill thme to the last man, woman and child. Yes, I know you do not believe that. Neither did the Jews in Europe during WWII, even weh nthey heard rumor after rumor after rumor. Israel made a huge mistake in nor fighting in Lebanon like Romans and will probably pay for that lack of ruthlessness. A nation soft in war can easily find itself a nation no longer. And, yes, I know you and MT et al, do not believe that either. That is perfectly fine.

The Jews fought the Romans and look what that got them. They chose violent insurrection and the Romans absolutely obliterated Jerusalem and a large segment of the Jewish population.

It is not about being "soft in war." It is about how you treat your fellow man. It was not right for South Africa, it was not right for Alabama, it is not right for Israel. I don't believe that God justifies it in any of those three cases, nor do I believe His Son teaches us to accept it. You may not like the word 'apartheid' as Sirs does not, but that's just semantics. The actions are identical and no one, after all these years of seeing such injustices perpetrated on people, should accept any government setting such policies let alone defending them!

In "Romeo and Juliet"there is a fight sciene between the Capulet's an Montague's nd Romeo , by trying to prevent his cousin from fighting , makes him vulnerable to attack.

In the real world there is a struggle for dominance between Palestinians and Israel , to look at one side only is unrealistic.

The Palestinians are suffering worse than the Israeli , this is known as "loosing", but one side will loose , if not both.

In recent history there was a majority of Isrelis who voted for a peace platform and Rabin made a start in the direction of reconcilement. Can the Palistinians ever vote for a peace platform?

And who murdered Rabin?

In the real world it is not a "struggle for dominance" but a system of humiliating apartheid.

The problem Plane is that you could frame the struggle of African-Americans in Alabama (and of course other areas of the United States) or the Black South Africans in the same manner as you are doing. Yet, that doesn't make it correct. That simply puts it in your perspective.

The Nationalists in South Africa had many and varying reasons for doing what they did. For many of them it was perfectly justified (and indeed some considered it to be "soft"). The same is true of the white citizens of Alabama. On the other hand we could take what we've learned from those situations and apply it to similar problems today. Or, we could stand by and make excuses or even defend the actions of yet another government imposing apartheid on another people.

It is a common theme for Americans, especially white middle class Americans. We tend to be comfortably numb... 
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on January 04, 2008, 05:34:36 PM
<<Gotta love that rationalizing hypocrisy >>

Gotta love it when the moron is completely at a loss for any rational answers to a carefully reasoned post, and has to resort to meaningless name-calling.  Grow a brain, ass-hole, and failing that, stop embarrassing yourself with your own inarticulate stupidity.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 04, 2008, 05:53:09 PM
...why do you care? If some police department has to change their seal, who cares?

Apparently, you're having a difficult time grasping my original point about the 1st amendment, clear intentions, founders, etc.  The insidious effort to mutate the clear meaning of the 1st amendment in order to remove any vestiges of Christmas or Christianity from the public & even private sector, is "why I care".  what made this country great, is "why I care"


Again, I'll ask...does this line of debate help spread Christ's message?

Since this is a debate about freedom & the Constitution, not sure how Jesus fits in here.  I'm not trying to convert non-beiievers into Christians.  Nor was Christ's message specific to the Bill of Rights  I'm here to open the eyes of those who read these pages, to what I see as an ever increasing PC controlling effort at removing religion from the workplace, from schools, from anything even remotely affecting the public sector
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Cynthia on January 04, 2008, 06:11:35 PM
"Gotta love it when the moron is completely at a loss for any rational answers to a carefully reasoned post, and has to resort to meaningless name-calling."


uh...."Kettle, Pot on line one!"
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: The_Professor on January 04, 2008, 06:21:42 PM
<<Gotta love that rationalizing hypocrisy >>

Gotta love it when the moron is completely at a loss for any rational answers to a carefully reasoned post, and has to resort to meaningless name-calling.  Grow a brain, ass-hole, and failing that, stop embarrassing yourself with your own inarticulate stupidity.

and here we go again. We, and you did it aplenty, criticized Rich for name-calling and yet we see it again, except by someone else. Or, was that YOU?

Physician, heal thyself!
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 04, 2008, 06:27:49 PM
"Gotta love it when the moron is completely at a loss for any rational answers to a carefully reasoned post, and has to resort to meaningless name-calling."


uh...."Kettle, Pot on line one!"

 :D     Touche' Cynthia
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 04, 2008, 07:49:32 PM
So, Js....here's a pet peeve I have, that you never have fully been able to explain to my satisfaction.  You use Christ's teachings and references to scripture in how we are to help our fellow man....which of course I also support & agree with.  UNTIL it turns to commentary regarding taxes, where I've seen the reference to Jesus in criticising, if not condemning those, especially christians, who don't agree with ever increasing taxation, especially on the so-called "rich" in order to enabl...I mean perpetu....I mean to "help our fellow man". 

Would those who would bring up such a reference to Jesus, in apparently trying to lay some massive guilt trip on the individual(s) being criticized, be implying that Jesus would support coercison, be it forceably or legally, of taking $$$ from some, and give to others?  You really think that's a line of debate help spread Christ's message?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Plane on January 04, 2008, 08:13:10 PM
JS, I hope that the tendecny you see in Israle is incorrect. If the Israelis let down their guard for an instant, the surrounding nations will kill thme to the last man, woman and child. Yes, I know you do not believe that. Neither did the Jews in Europe during WWII, even weh nthey heard rumor after rumor after rumor. Israel made a huge mistake in nor fighting in Lebanon like Romans and will probably pay for that lack of ruthlessness. A nation soft in war can easily find itself a nation no longer. And, yes, I know you and MT et al, do not believe that either. That is perfectly fine.

The Jews fought the Romans and look what that got them. They chose violent insurrection and the Romans absolutely obliterated Jerusalem and a large segment of the Jewish population.

It is not about being "soft in war." It is about how you treat your fellow man. It was not right for South Africa, it was not right for Alabama, it is not right for Israel. I don't believe that God justifies it in any of those three cases, nor do I believe His Son teaches us to accept it. You may not like the word 'apartheid' as Sirs does not, but that's just semantics. The actions are identical and no one, after all these years of seeing such injustices perpetrated on people, should accept any government setting such policies let alone defending them!

In "Romeo and Juliet"there is a fight sciene between the Capulet's an Montague's nd Romeo , by trying to prevent his cousin from fighting , makes him vulnerable to attack.

In the real world there is a struggle for dominance between Palestinians and Israel , to look at one side only is unrealistic.

The Palestinians are suffering worse than the Israeli , this is known as "loosing", but one side will loose , if not both.

In recent history there was a majority of Isrelis who voted for a peace platform and Rabin made a start in the direction of reconcilement. Can the Palistinians ever vote for a peace platform?

And who murdered Rabin?
Quote
A idealogue who mistook himself foran idealist.

In the real world it is not a "struggle for dominance" but a system of humiliating apartheid.

The problem Plane is that you could frame the struggle of African-Americans in Alabama (and of course other areas of the United States) or the Black South Africans in the same manner as you are doing. Yet, that doesn't make it correct. That simply puts it in your perspective.

The Nationalists in South Africa had many and varying reasons for doing what they did. For many of them it was perfectly justified (and indeed some considered it to be "soft"). The same is true of the white citizens of Alabama. On the other hand we could take what we've learned from those situations and apply it to similar problems today. Or, we could stand by and make excuses or even defend the actions of yet another government imposing apartheid on another people.

It is a common theme for Americans, especially white middle class Americans. We tend to be comfortably numb... 

The troubble is that the Palstinians are stuck in the violence groove imagine the civil ight movement in he US or South Africa if every attempt at anything other than vioence led to violence?If Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. were a Palestinian he woul be assissinated by another Palestinian (someting like Rabin) and the violence is innefective , it should remain innefective and it shold LOOK innefetive to everyone that sees it.

Meanwhile I don't see criticiseing the Isrelis fortheir violece without also criticiseing the Palistinians for theirs , if the alistinians would give up on violencethey might make some better progress, but while they are struggleing with violenc it is useles to note that the number of kids killed by one side is greater than the other.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on January 04, 2008, 08:51:31 PM
Cynthia:  <<uh...."Kettle, Pot on line one!">>

The Professor:  <<and here we go again. We, and you did it aplenty criticized Rich for name-calling and yet we see it again, except by someone else.

                      <<Physician, heal thyself!>>

Let me refresh your memories.  Rich insulted terra without provocation.  In a particularly vile manner.  This shouldn't be too hard for either of you to understand:  1.  An UNPROVOKED insult.   2.  a vile insult

Let's get back to reality here, difficult though it may be for the two of you.  I take the time and trouble to provide a reasoned, logical response to sirs' (typically) idiotic post.  Showing him at least the respect of taking his brain-farts seriously enough to compose a reasoned reply to them.  And in return, get this response to my post:  [I quote]:  "Gotta love that rationalizing hypocrisy."  Period.  No more no less.  Basically calls me a fucking hypocrite - - fair enough.  That's his opinion.  For what it's worth.  But with nothing to back it up?  With not one single reference to one thing I said that is "hypocritical?"  Sorry folks, that is not discussion, not debate, not even rational.  My argument, which I put some time and thought into, was answered with a single unsubstantiated personal insult.

So naturally I responded in kind.  Insult for insult.  Is there anything particularly vile in sirs' insult to me ("hypocrite?")  I don't think so.  Was there anything particularly vile in my retaliatory insult to sirs ("moron?") I don't think so.

Here's my reply to those of you who wish to compare my response to sirs' insult of me  with my response to Rich's insult of terra:  You are wrong.  I am not particularly surprised or disappointed by Cynthia's response, but I am kind of disappointed in yours, Professor.  You really should know better.  I really thought you were smarter than that.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on January 04, 2008, 09:46:50 PM
My question, which you failed to answer, is why do you care about such things? Do you really and earnestly believe that you are helping to take Christ's message to others by arguing that Christmas is under attack?

Why do I care that Christianity is trying to be driven completely out the Public sector, and insidiously out of the workplace, specifically counter to the clear intentions of the Founders and wordings of the 1st amendment??  That's an issue you wonder why I care about??

And one last time, I'd defy you to show me where I ever referenced "Christmas under attack".  In fact, i've made specific quotes refuting precisely that.  The comments I've made have been consistently as to inquiring so many of the ACLU like minds are scared of Christmas, and religion in general, as personified by the links to the ACLU story targeting the county of Los Angeles & their squad cars of 30+yrs.  So, why this Brass-like attempt to claim something I never did, is beyond me

I still contend there is nothing of the sort even happening.

I wish I had a pic of the overwhelming amount of xmas decorations here at my offices.  There was a christmas cubicle decorating contest here!

Jesus, chicken little, the sky is not falling.  If anything, it is growing upwards.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Cynthia on January 04, 2008, 10:20:36 PM
"Let's get back to reality here"

The reality here has been beat to death.

Your statement was clearly about  name calling a name caller.

So, when you say that you must refresh our memories?? duh? what?

That has nothing to do with MY particular post.

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on January 04, 2008, 10:37:11 PM
<<So, when you say that you must refresh our memories?? duh? what?

<<That has nothing to do with MY particular post.>>

Your mistake was only to equate the provocation with the reaction.  I don't agree that they're both equal, but there's nothing particularly stupid in your post, a lot of people who aren't themselves involved in a squabble with take a "plague on both your houses" POV, as you did.

As I indicated in my post, the person I was particularly disappointed in was The Professor, who claimed he couldn't see any difference between my reaction to sirs' insult and the purely gratuitous insult that Rich levelled at terra.  It should have been obvious from my post that the "let's refresh our memories" stuff was aimed at The Professor, not at you.  However, if you took that as aimed at YOU, then I apologize for not making myself clearer.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Cynthia on January 04, 2008, 10:40:13 PM
Cynthia:  <<uh...."Kettle, Pot on line one!">>

The Professor:  <<and here we go again. We, and you did it aplenty criticized Rich for name-calling and yet we see it again, except by someone else.

                      <<Physician, heal thyself!>>

Let me refresh your memories
.


Let me refresh YOUR memories!

Directed at both of us.

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: The_Professor on January 04, 2008, 10:48:29 PM
Cynthia:  <<uh...."Kettle, Pot on line one!">>

The Professor:  <<and here we go again. We, and you did it aplenty criticized Rich for name-calling and yet we see it again, except by someone else.

                      <<Physician, heal thyself!>>

Let me refresh your memories.  Rich insulted terra without provocation.  In a particularly vile manner.  This shouldn't be too hard for either of you to understand:  1.  An UNPROVOKED insult.   2.  a vile insult

Let's get back to reality here, difficult though it may be for the two of you.  I take the time and trouble to provide a reasoned, logical response to sirs' (typically) idiotic post.  Showing him at least the respect of taking his brain-farts seriously enough to compose a reasoned reply to them.  And in return, get this response to my post:  [I quote]:  "Gotta love that rationalizing hypocrisy."  Period.  No more no less.  Basically calls me a fucking hypocrite - - fair enough.  That's his opinion.  For what it's worth.  But with nothing to back it up?  With not one single reference to one thing I said that is "hypocritical?"  Sorry folks, that is not discussion, not debate, not even rational.  My argument, which I put some time and thought into, was answered with a single unsubstantiated personal insult.

So naturally I responded in kind.  Insult for insult.  Is there anything particularly vile in sirs' insult to me ("hypocrite?")  I don't think so.  Was there anything particularly vile in my retaliatory insult to sirs ("moron?") I don't think so.

Here's my reply to those of you who wish to compare my response to sirs' insult of me  with my response to Rich's insult of terra:  You are wrong.  I am not particularly surprised or disappointed by Cynthia's response, but I am kind of disappointed in yours, Professor.  You really should know better.  I really thought you were smarter than that.

MT, the chief point I am making is NOT that your name calling was as bad as Rich's as it obviously wasn't even in the same league, BUT we all cross the line, so more understanding should be in order. Hey, I do it sometimes, too, to my shame.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on January 04, 2008, 11:25:47 PM
<<MT, the chief point I am making is NOT that your name calling was as bad as Rich's as it obviously wasn't even in the same league, BUT we all cross the line, so more understanding should be in order. Hey, I do it sometimes, too, to my shame.>>

I know that I crossed a line, Professor, but it was one of the minor, "danger ahead" lines, not the red line that Rich crossed.  When someone insults me, I like to give back at least as good as I get.  I figured "moron" was a tad stronger than "hypocrite" but perfectly appropriate in the circumstances.  "Ass-hole" was maybe something more than the situation required, and I probably would have had no objection to being properly taken to task over it.  However your post, even as I re-read it, gives no indication that my response to sirs wasn't in the same league as Rich's conduct, which of course pissed me off no end.

I'm glad you are not putting ME in the same league as Rich, Professor.  With that little misunderstanding straightened out, I can certainly appreciate your point and even agree with it to some extent.  No hard feelings, Professor.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on January 04, 2008, 11:50:19 PM
So, Js....here's a pet peeve I have, that you never have fully been able to explain to my satisfaction.  You use Christ's teachings and references to scripture in how we are to help our fellow man....which of course I also support & agree with.  UNTIL it turns to commentary regarding taxes, where I've seen the reference to Jesus in criticising, if not condemning those, especially christians, who don't agree with ever increasing taxation, especially on the so-called "rich" in order to enabl...I mean perpetu....I mean to "help our fellow man". 

Would those who would bring up such a reference to Jesus, in apparently trying to lay some massive guilt trip on the individual(s) being criticized, be implying that Jesus would support coercison, be it forceably or legally, of taking $$$ from some, and give to others?  You really think that's a line of debate help spread Christ's message?

Absolutely. Shall I recall the parable of the rich man and Lazarus? Shall I go into James chapter 5? All the examples from Luke? Acts? Wealth is not exactly one of Christ's nor the Apostle's most favored of social statuses.

James 5:1-6
Quote
1 Come now, you rich, weep and wail over your impending miseries.
2 Your wealth has rotted away, your clothes have become moth-eaten,
3 your gold and silver have corroded, and that corrosion will be a testimony against you; it will devour your flesh like a fire. You have stored up treasure for the last days.
4 Behold, the wages you withheld from the workers who harvested your fields are crying aloud, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts.
5 You have lived on earth in luxury and pleasure; you have fattened your hearts for the day of slaughter.
6 You have condemned; you have murdered the righteous one; he offers you no resistance.

Wow. James didn't exactly mince words, did he? Let me know if you wish to get into deeper discussions on specific scripture and we can make a new thread. I'd enjoy the discussion.

To answer your question quite clearly, no, I don't believe Christ would have a problem with a government whose goal was to do good for the poor by taxing the wealthy. Whose face is on the coin? What did Abraham say to Lazarus? What did he say to the wealthy man? What kind of society did Peter form with the Apostles after Christ's death, Resurrection, and ascension? Did they not share all possessions in common? Or did they squabble over property rights?

Have you read Matthew 25?

You come up with whatever names you want and semantics to play. Neoliberalism is its own church, requiring its own tenets of belief and certainly its own worship of its own golden calves.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on January 04, 2008, 11:55:00 PM
The troubble is that the Palstinians are stuck in the violence groove imagine the civil ight movement in he US or South Africa if every attempt at anything other than vioence led to violence?If Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. were a Palestinian he woul be assissinated by another Palestinian (someting like Rabin) and the violence is innefective , it should remain innefective and it shold LOOK innefetive to everyone that sees it.

Meanwhile I don't see criticiseing the Isrelis fortheir violece without also criticiseing the Palistinians for theirs , if the alistinians would give up on violencethey might make some better progress, but while they are struggleing with violenc it is useles to note that the number of kids killed by one side is greater than the other.

Are you saying that the South African's didn't experience violence? They did. The Blacks fought back.

Why should it be ineffective? Should our violence towards the British have been ineffective? It certainly did not stop us and we were NO WHERE near as oppressed as the Palestinians (if we were oppressed at all). There were plenty of innocent people killed and dispossesed by "patriots." Should they have countered with nonviolence instead? Or are they special because they are Americans, or perhaps Christians, or perhaps white?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: The_Professor on January 04, 2008, 11:57:19 PM
<<MT, the chief point I am making is NOT that your name calling was as bad as Rich's as it obviously wasn't even in the same league, BUT we all cross the line, so more understanding should be in order. Hey, I do it sometimes, too, to my shame.>>

I know that I crossed a line, Professor, but it was one of the minor, "danger ahead" lines, not the red line that Rich crossed.  When someone insults me, I like to give back at least as good as I get.  I figured "moron" was a tad stronger than "hypocrite" but perfectly appropriate in the circumstances.  "Ass-hole" was maybe something more than the situation required, and I probably would have had no objection to being properly taken to task over it.  However your post, even as I re-read it, gives no indication that my response to sirs wasn't in the same league as Rich's conduct, which of course pissed me off no end.

I'm glad you are not putting ME in the same league as Rich, Professor.  With that little misunderstanding straightened out, I can certainly appreciate your point and even agree with it to some extent.  No hard feelings, Professor.

And I certainly offer my apologies if I meant it was in the same league as it is defintely NOT.

I must say, with all sincerity, that I find your views, most of the time anyway, to be bizarre in the extreme. That being said, I am a better person for having been exposed to them and having my mind exercised.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Plane on January 05, 2008, 12:02:52 AM
The trouble is that the Palestinians are stuck in the violence groove imagine the civil right movement in he US or South Africa if every attempt at anything other than violence led to violence?If Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. were a Palestinian he would be assassinated by another Palestinian (someting like Rabin) and the violence is ineffective , it should remain ineffective and it should LOOK ineffective to everyone that sees it.

Meanwhile I don't see criticizing the Israelis fortheir violence without also criticizing the Palestinians for theirs , if the Palestinians would give up on violencethey might make some better progress, but while they are struggling with violenc it is useless to note that the number of kids killed by one side is greater than the other.

Are you saying that the South African's didn't experience violence? They did. The Blacks fought back.

Why should it be ineffective? Should our violence towards the British have been ineffective? It certainly did not stop us and we were NO WHERE near as oppressed as the Palestinians (if we were oppressed at all). There were plenty of innocent people killed and dispossessed by "patriots." Should they have countered with nonviolence instead? Or are they special because they are Americans, or perhaps Christians, or perhaps white?

Violence can work , but why does no one ever admit that violence can fail?
Or deny that the alternative can work?

For Sixty years the Palestinians and their allies have done their utmost , in the future they may do even More , but they can fail , they can fail any number of times.

The Israelis are worried that they only get one failure so they fight harder than the Palestinians  , however hard they Palestinians fight they know that just by stopping they can take  rest , the Israelis don't have this.

The Isrelis have built a wall , regrettable in many respects , but the fatalitys of children on both sides are down as a result , sowhere should the prioritys be placed?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Plane on January 05, 2008, 12:09:32 AM

Why should it be ineffective? Should our violence towards the British have been ineffective? It certainly did not stop us and we were NO WHERE near as oppressed as the Palestinians (if we were oppressed at all). There were plenty of innocent people killed and dispossesed by "patriots." Should they have countered with nonviolence instead? Or are they special because they are Americans, or perhaps Christians, or perhaps white?

What the early US had was military advantage that the English couldn't match , if the Revolution had happened earlyer it might have failed , if t had happened later it might have succeeded faster. Benjaman Franklin right in the middle of hostilitys noted that the American Birthrate was far in excess of the casualtys and predicted victory.In those days large familys were the norm and each young man was prone to stablish a new farm and a new family.

The Palestinians have a diffrent situation but they don't understand it , a high birthrate is working against hem because it is contributeing not to their strength , but to their poverty. If they tripple their number they will gain practicly no military advantage , but they will divide their resorces for sustanance by three.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 05, 2008, 12:10:27 AM
To answer your question quite clearly, no, I don't believe Christ would have a problem with a government whose goal was to do good for the poor by taxing the wealthy.  

Absolutely stunning.  Well, at least your honest.  To think, the core foundation of what God allowed to happen, and thru Christ, the freedom of will, to choose the path you want to take, not being forced to lead a Christian life, but the freedom to make the ultimate choice, between walking a path of Godly righteousness or........not.  Yet here, a much lesser choice is not to be made by man, but by government.  

That you'd think for a microsecond that Jesus would support Goverment forcibly talking anything, be it money, property, whatever from one to give to another is pretty much the epitome of......well, NOT being Christian.  Christianity is the heart of giving of oneself.  At least IMHO


Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on January 05, 2008, 12:19:54 AM
To answer your question quite clearly, no, I don't believe Christ would have a problem with a government whose goal was to do good for the poor by taxing the wealthy.  

Absolutely stunning.  Well, at least your honest.  To think, the core foundation of what God allowed to happen, and thru Christ, the freedom of will, to choose the path you want to take, not being forced to lead a Christian life, but the freedom to make the ultimate choice, between walking a path of Godly righteousness or........not.  Yet here, a much lesser choice is not to be made by man, but by government.  

That you'd think for a microsecond that Jesus would support Goverment forcibly talking anything, be it money, property, whatever from one to give to another is pretty much the epitome of......well, NOT being Christian.  Christianity is the heart of giving of oneself.  At least IMHO

Christianity is a religion of following Christ. Christ's call is radical Sirs. He was not put to death for telling people what they want to hear. He was not put to death for telling the wealthy that they could do whatever they want and we'd all be fine with that. Christ didn't go around saying, "whatever man." Had he done so, He'd have lived and we'd never know who He was. His call is very radical and He upset the status quo. Look at what James wrote, you think that made people content or just maybe it got under some people's skin?

Love your enemy. Turn the other cheek. Forget burying your father. Give away all of your possessions. Clothe the naked, feed the hungry, visit the prisoners. Those weren't easy commands Sirs. Christ never said to do what you like and love free enterprise. That was not His call.

I don't know what you're talking about, but I don't see that it has anything to do with Christianity.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on January 05, 2008, 12:22:27 AM
The trouble is that the Palestinians are stuck in the violence groove imagine the civil right movement in he US or South Africa if every attempt at anything other than violence led to violence?If Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. were a Palestinian he would be assassinated by another Palestinian (someting like Rabin) and the violence is ineffective , it should remain ineffective and it should LOOK ineffective to everyone that sees it.

Meanwhile I don't see criticizing the Israelis fortheir violence without also criticizing the Palestinians for theirs , if the Palestinians would give up on violencethey might make some better progress, but while they are struggling with violenc it is useless to note that the number of kids killed by one side is greater than the other.

Are you saying that the South African's didn't experience violence? They did. The Blacks fought back.

Why should it be ineffective? Should our violence towards the British have been ineffective? It certainly did not stop us and we were NO WHERE near as oppressed as the Palestinians (if we were oppressed at all). There were plenty of innocent people killed and dispossessed by "patriots." Should they have countered with nonviolence instead? Or are they special because they are Americans, or perhaps Christians, or perhaps white?

Violence can work , but why does no one ever admit that violence can fail?
Or deny that the alternative can work?

For Sixty years the Palestinians and their allies have done their utmost , in the future they may do even More , but they can fail , they can fail any number of times.

The Israelis are worried that they only get one failure so they fight harder than the Palestinians  , however hard they Palestinians fight they know that just by stopping they can take  rest , the Israelis don't have this.

The Isrelis have built a wall , regrettable in many respects , but the fatalitys of children on both sides are down as a result , sowhere should the prioritys be placed?

So violence is OK for some, but you don't think it is OK for the Palestinians. Why?

The Americans would never have won without the French. End of.

Besides you never really answered the question. Why was said violence OK for us, even towards innocents, but for the Palestinians it is absolutely intolerable (in your view)?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Cynthia on January 05, 2008, 12:27:07 AM
"I figured "moron" was a tad stronger than "hypocrite" but perfectly appropriate in the circumstances.  "Ass-hole" was maybe something more than the situation required, and I probably would have had no objection to being properly taken to task over it.  However your post, even as I re-read it, gives no indication that my response to sirs wasn't in the same league as Rich's conduct, which of course pissed me off no end."  


A tad stronger.....appropriate for WHAT?

You make this sound as if it's the sequel to Yellow Crane's play.

Lexical differences, indeed.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Plane on January 05, 2008, 12:43:10 AM
The trouble is that the Palestinians are stuck in the violence groove imagine the civil right movement in he US or South Africa if every attempt at anything other than violence led to violence?If Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. were a Palestinian he would be assassinated by another Palestinian (someting like Rabin) and the violence is ineffective , it should remain ineffective and it should LOOK ineffective to everyone that sees it.

Meanwhile I don't see criticizing the Israelis fortheir violence without also criticizing the Palestinians for theirs , if the Palestinians would give up on violencethey might make some better progress, but while they are struggling with violenc it is useless to note that the number of kids killed by one side is greater than the other.

Are you saying that the South African's didn't experience violence? They did. The Blacks fought back.

Why should it be ineffective? Should our violence towards the British have been ineffective? It certainly did not stop us and we were NO WHERE near as oppressed as the Palestinians (if we were oppressed at all). There were plenty of innocent people killed and dispossessed by "patriots." Should they have countered with nonviolence instead? Or are they special because they are Americans, or perhaps Christians, or perhaps white?

Violence can work , but why does no one ever admit that violence can fail?
Or deny that the alternative can work?

For Sixty years the Palestinians and their allies have done their utmost , in the future they may do even More , but they can fail , they can fail any number of times.

The Israelis are worried that they only get one failure so they fight harder than the Palestinians  , however hard they Palestinians fight they know that just by stopping they can take  rest , the Israelis don't have this.

The Isrelis have built a wall , regrettable in many respects , but the fatalitys of children on both sides are down as a result , sowhere should the prioritys be placed?

So violence is OK for some, but you don't think it is OK for the Palestinians. Why?
because it is fruitless and endless , and there is a better alternative or them . One might think it unjust that the Apache didn't win , but they decided to quit while there were still some of them left if they were fihting till the present day they would have suffered the war till the present.The Palestinians are too hung on the notion of winning should they really devote two more generations to it|?
Quote

The Americans would never have won without the French. End of.
The French were key , but the Spanish would not have served just as well if the French were not helpfull?
The war was a near thing , but it worked.
Imagine that the British kept controll untill 1864 , then the Civil war might have been fough with Redcoat involvement.
Quote

Besides you never really answered the question. Why was said violence OK for us, even towards innocents, but for the Palestinians it is absolutely intolerable (in your view)?

It is not OK for US it is not OK for anyone , esecially for attacks intended to kill the innocent , or which neglectfully allow innocent casualtys.We do work to prevent the by kill that can be avoided . The Palestinians do not.

Isreal does not deserve praise for killing a child, and the Palestianians don't either, neither do the Palestianins deserve any excusemakeing.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 05, 2008, 02:15:10 AM
You're gonna be hardpressed Js to find ANYTHING in the scriptures that indicates a prediosition that Jesus would support coerced/forced taking of something that belongs to person A, in order to give it to person B.  But good luck
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on January 05, 2008, 03:39:43 AM
You're gonna be hardpressed Js to find ANYTHING in the scriptures that indicates a prediosition that Jesus would support coerced/forced taking of something that belongs to person A, in order to give it to person B.  But good luck

You're going to be hard pressed to find anything Sirs that shows Jesus supporting such a self-centered view of society. Those earnings are not person A's, they are God's. The fruits of creation were given to man by God to be shared amongst man. You show me where Christ intended for creation to be primarily intended for the top 2% and the scraps divied amongst the remainder.

Bullshit.

This movement to meld Christianity into a free-market, laissez faire, Milton Friedman wet dream is a joke. If you wish for a religion that supports the crass consumerism of modern society that's fine, but don't try and water down the teachings of Christ to fit your lifestyle and views. I don't see where Jesus cared much about private property rights to be flat honest with you Sirs. Again, how did the Apostles form their community in Acts? Did they bitch and moan about taking person A's goods?

Why don't you try reading the Bible before commenting on it.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 05, 2008, 04:19:15 AM
Why don't you provide scripture that demonstrates how Jesus would support goverment officials taking from one to give to another??  Perhaps because there ISN'T ANY?? 

Christ's advocating that we help our fellow man does not equate to MANDATING that we help our fellow man.  It all goes back to free will....that which God gave us, the freedom to CHOOSE our actions and our paths.  At NO TIME DID JESUS EVER PREACH HOW WE'RE TO FORCE OUR FELLOW MAN TO HELP OTHER FELLOW MEN.  I defy you to refute that
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on January 05, 2008, 05:18:57 AM
We do work to prevent the by kill that can be avoided . The Palestinians do not.

======================================================
We do? 

There arer many, many, more Palestinians by Israelis killed than Israelis killed by Palestinians. This is not normally reported in the newspapers and TV shows you read and see, because the OIsraelis are ever so much better at propaganda.

Thye Palestinians fight on and do not give up because to give up would mean to be pushed into smaller and smaller territories. They have nowhere to go. Israelis can always come to the US, but Palestinians are not welcomed anywhere by anyone, and cannot even enter most countries. They are trapped in an ever-shrinking box.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: hnumpah on January 05, 2008, 01:08:20 PM
Quote
Why don't you provide scripture that demonstrates how Jesus would support goverment officials taking from one to give to another?? 


Matthew 22:21
...Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

This came after being asked whether people should pay tribute (taxes) to the Romans. The Romans, besides using taxes to support their armies and govenments, also used the money to build roads, aqueducts, colosseums, and other civic projects, as well as funds to feed the poor; so yes, Jesus did advocate taking money from one to give to another.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 05, 2008, 01:17:58 PM
Quote
Why don't you provide scripture that demonstrates how Jesus would support goverment officials taking from one to give to another?? 


Matthew 22:21
...Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Yea, and....?  Jesus advocated giving away ALL one's worldy & material poessessions, to follow God's path.  Is this now the literal implication that unless we're all in overt poverty, devoid of all materialistic goods, we're not walking God's path??
 
the point again remains that with the most utmost decision one could make, that of following a path towards God.....or not, We have that ability to choose.  It's not being forced upon us by the government.  according to Js's line of logic, Jesus would support government making people follow God's path....literally.  I doubt very seriously Christ would be supporting that notion, either

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: hnumpah on January 05, 2008, 01:23:57 PM
And you skip right over the point - this was in direct response to a question about paying taxes, and had nothing to do with giving away all your worldly possessions..
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 05, 2008, 01:46:19 PM
No, the point is what we perceive Jesus would advocate/support.  You & Js seem to think that Jesus supports the notion that government is to forcibly take from someone to give to another.  Well, if the ultimate goal is salvation, then obviously Jesus must support that Government must then be involved in that as well, forcibly if necessary.  Otherwise there's this obvious illogical disconnect simply to try and support some pro-Taxation Christ
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: hnumpah on January 05, 2008, 01:54:39 PM
Actually, my point is that you asked "Why don't you provide scripture that demonstrates how Jesus would support goverment officials taking from one to give to another??"

I provided it.

And now all of a sudden you are all mealy mouthed about it.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 05, 2008, 02:01:41 PM
Well, if you don't support the notion of Jesus supporting government to facilitate our salvation, a MUCH greater goal than simply helping our fellow man, not sure why you're even responding to this.  Your scripture simply was in Jesus responding to a question regarding if he's boss or if Ceaser was, and hardly implying some form of pro-taxation Christ.     ::)
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: gipper on January 05, 2008, 02:13:23 PM
This is a conundrum. Christ was at once the preeminent "help your neighbor" advocate historically as well as history's preeminent propnent of nonviolence. There seems to be little doubt where Christ would come down on healing the sick and feeding the hungry and relieving the impoverished even at the expense of the wealthy and comfortable. To the extent He advocated means, they would be along the lines of Gandhi and King, but unmistakable in their vector. Never confronted with the problem, and leaving its resolution to the unfolding of history, Christ did not address the path to follow when one preeminent mandate clashes headon with the other. The Church has, however: in the just war theory.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: hnumpah on January 05, 2008, 02:24:53 PM
Quote
Well, if you don't support the notion of Jesus supporting government to facilitate our salvation, a MUCH greater goal than simply helping our fellow man, not sure why you're even responding to this.  Your scripture simply was in Jesus responding to a question regarding if he's boss or if Ceaser was, and hardly implying some form of pro-taxation Christ.

I'm not interested in greater goals. You asked a question. I answered.

And as so often in the past, you want to bend and twist the answer to suit your own ends.

Have at it.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 05, 2008, 02:42:56 PM
Quote
Well, if you don't support the notion of Jesus supporting government to facilitate our salvation, a MUCH greater goal than simply helping our fellow man, not sure why you're even responding to this.  Your scripture simply was in Jesus responding to a question regarding if he's boss or if Ceaser was, and hardly implying some form of pro-taxation Christ.

I'm not interested in greater goals. You asked a question. I answered.

I suppose in tweaking & twisting a scripture that had prescious little to do with some pro-taxation Jesus, to try and refute my point, then your goal was accomplished.  Good job

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on January 05, 2008, 02:43:24 PM
<<Well, if you don't support the notion of Jesus supporting government to facilitate our salvation, a MUCH greater goal than simply helping our fellow man, not sure why you're even responding to this.>>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ROTFLMFAO.  It's hilarious to follow through this thread.  Basically, sirs doesn't think it's OK for the gov't to tax Peter to benefit Paul; challenges hnumpah to prove that Jesus would have advocated paying taxes to support projects you don't approve of; and gets hit with the "Render unto Caesar" quote, which is about as direct as you can get in support of paying taxes to a government which is going to put the money to all kinds of uses, some acceptable to Christians, some not, some beneficial to the poor, some not.

Faced with undeniable proof of what he had just challenged hnumpah to produce, sirs immediately tries to move the goal-posts:

"Well now prove that Jesus said to give away all your stuff and live in poverty."   Huh?  From just paying your taxes to voluntary self-pauperization?  Quite a leap, for anyone other than sirs.  But hnumpah ain't buyin.

Oooh, Jeeziz, tight bind.  What's a right-wing ideologue to do?  Logic?  Maybe logic can bale him out of this one.  "OK, if Jesus supports paying taxes to government to help our fellow man, how about paying taxes to government to facilitate our salvation?  A "MUCH" greater goal."

Anybody out there past the age of 12 who hasn't caught the lunacy yet?  "Scrap the NIH, scrap No Child Left Behind, scrap the Centres for Disease Control, scrap FEMA!!!  We're gonna put the U.S. government to work on the MUCH greater goal of facilitating humanity's salvation.  The new Department of Salvation will put this thing on a war footing.  We'll get William Bennett - - no, Michael Browne!! - - no, Alberto Gonzalez!!  He'll be the Salvation Czar!!  We conservatives have got our priorities straight.  We know what Americans want from their government - - salvation!!"

I propose a prize for both of the participants in this debate - - hnumpah for steady, relentless logic and refusal to get side-tracked by the king of side-tracking and changing goalposts, and sirs for persistence, doggedness and refusal to concede a loss even when it leads him over the brink of absurdity.  Well done, both of you.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: hnumpah on January 05, 2008, 02:47:05 PM
Quote
I propose a prize for both of the participants in this debate - - hnumpah for steady, relentless logic and refusal to get side-tracked by the king of side-tracking and changing goalposts, and sirs for persistence, doggedness and refusal to concede a loss even when it leads him over the brink of absurdity.  Well done, both of you.

Thenk yew, thenk yew veddy much.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on January 05, 2008, 02:47:47 PM
Along with H's answer I would also add this:

Matthew 25:31-46

Quote
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'
37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'
44 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'
45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'
46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


This section is known as "The Judgement of Nations."

Christianity is not freedom, nor is it easy. Christ did not come to give us Democracy, or indeed any political system. The Jewish people were hoping for a military and political Messiah, but as Domer insinuated, that is not who Jesus was. Yes, people have freedom of religion - but once you are a Christian you become responsible to Christ and His teachings.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on January 05, 2008, 02:52:29 PM
Quote
"Well now prove that Jesus said to give away all your stuff and live in poverty."

I know where that is too.  ;)

The debate is whether He meant it for certain people or all. The truth is that the wealthy don't exactly come off easy in many of the New Testament books (esp. Luke, Acts, and James). Though some have tried to play those sections of the Bible down over the centuries.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 05, 2008, 02:55:27 PM
No one said Christ came to give us democracy Js.  Christ came to provide us the means to attain salvation.  God gave us the ability to chose for ourself, what path we're going to take.  The one that leads to salvation or the one that doesn't.  

At no time did he mandate that path.

And despite Tee's foaming at the mouth rant, the point remains that at no time does Jesus advocate the forcible taking from someone to give to another.  What he's always advocated is that we do so, by our own volition, as a testement to that path we've chosen.  That's the freedom I'm referring to, and not some Government process.

You however seem to believe, that Jesus wants Government to intervene.  So obviously that applies to salvation, since that't the ultimate goal.  I'll look forward to you pushing for a theocratic goverment, and the forcible adherence to Christ's teachings
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on January 05, 2008, 03:15:52 PM
Christ did not come to give us Democracy, or indeed any political system.

===============================================
True, and very untrue: Jesus came to impose a monarchy, whith Himself as the perpetual monarch. Hence the terms "Christ the King" and "King of Kings".

He did not plot to overthrow the Romans. He came to bring about an Apocalypse and THAT overthrow them.

--------------------------
The basic message from Jesus is "do as I say, or suffer the consequences of Helfire and eternal damnation".

And you say that this is not compulsion?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 05, 2008, 03:45:35 PM
The basic message from Jesus is "do as I say, or suffer the consequences of Helfire and eternal damnation".  And you say that this is not compulsion?

Motivation perhaps, but by no means a mandate, to be enforced at the hands of some 3rd party
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Lanya on January 05, 2008, 04:09:50 PM
Why don't you provide scripture that demonstrates how Jesus would support goverment officials taking from one to give to another??  Perhaps because there ISN'T ANY?? 

Christ's advocating that we help our fellow man does not equate to MANDATING that we help our fellow man.  It all goes back to free will....that which God gave us, the freedom to CHOOSE our actions and our paths.  At NO TIME DID JESUS EVER PREACH HOW WE'RE TO FORCE OUR FELLOW MAN TO HELP OTHER FELLOW MEN.  I defy you to refute that

It only mandates that we help our fellow man if we purport to be followers of Jesus.
If you've ever passed by a person in the street who was holding out their hand, a street person, and gave them nothing,  then you did it to Jesus. That's what he's saying.
Of people like that, Jesus said, "You call Lord, Lord, but I do not hear you."

And if you willingly eat the fruits of a society and a government like we have, with pure water and electricity and repaired roads and so on, and you feel like you have no mandate to help others, what does that say about you?  Do remember, "Render to Ceasar that which is Ceasar's."  Who said that?  Jesus. Back in the day, there were selfish people who didn't want to share. Jesus told them to put up and shut up, basically.
And you have the damn gall to pronounce this a "Christian Nation"?  Feh.   

[........]
But be careful. Christ made it quite clear that, ?Not everyone who says to Me, ?Lord, Lord,? shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven.? This includes some who very well expected to be among the saved: ?Many will say to Me in that [judgement] day, ?Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your Name, and done many wonders in Your Name?? And then I will declare to them, ?I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.? (Matt. 7:21-23.) Such are the people who call Jesus ?Lord? but have never really accepted Him as Savior or truly allowed Him to be the Lord of their life. Christ says to such a person, ?why do you call Me ?Lord, Lord,? and do not do the things which I say?? (Luke 6:46.)
[.........]
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 05, 2008, 04:40:50 PM
Why don't you provide scripture that demonstrates how Jesus would support goverment officials taking from one to give to another??  Perhaps because there ISN'T ANY?? 

Christ's advocating that we help our fellow man does not equate to MANDATING that we help our fellow man.  It all goes back to free will....that which God gave us, the freedom to CHOOSE our actions and our paths.  At NO TIME DID JESUS EVER PREACH HOW WE'RE TO FORCE OUR FELLOW MAN TO HELP OTHER FELLOW MEN.  I defy you to refute that

It only mandates that we help our fellow man if we purport to be followers of Jesus.  If you've ever passed by a person in the street who was holding out their hand, a street person, and gave them nothing,  then you did it to Jesus. That's what he's saying.

So, are you now jumping onto the theocratic bandwagon as well Lanya, ready to push Government assisted salvation??  That is the whole point of this tangent, what Jesus would support, ie the forcible taking from one, to give to another by a 3rd party, in this case by means of Government intervention.  It started out about taxes, but my position again is that salvation is so far greater a priority to Christ, if twisting scripture to claim that Jesus is supporting Government intervention by collecting taxes to "help our fellow man", then logically he must also support Government intervention to help bring about all our salvation.  And to hell with free will is apparently what you think he's saying
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Amianthus on January 05, 2008, 05:02:51 PM
So, if you're Christian, you should support taxes to pay for Social Services.

However, if you're not Christian, you don't have to pay those taxes?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on January 05, 2008, 05:52:29 PM
At this point, I think it is entirely safe to say that Jesus doesn't want anything, anymore than Genghis Khan or Gautama Siddhartha, or the Third Effing Earl of Sandwich doesn't want anything. Jesus is dead, deceased, and we shall never hear a peep from him ever, again.

Just people who think they heard him, perhaps.

O Jesus, Thou who art both ubiquitous and omniscient and prescient, if thou readeth this post, pleaseth to reveal thyself in person, that we mighteth know thy political orientation!
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Cynthia on January 05, 2008, 06:29:01 PM
....(Jesus)....we shall never hear a peep from him ever, again.


Cynically speaking, of course, XO.

Speak cynically for yourself. .....

He peeps for me! 8)

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 05, 2008, 06:32:17 PM
and me     8)
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: yellow_crane on January 05, 2008, 06:52:10 PM
....(Jesus)....we shall never hear a peep from him ever, again.


Cynically speaking, of course, XO.

Speak cynically for yourself. .....

He peeps for me! 8)




When Jesus returns, if not in Cravensville (!!!!), Missouri, maybe Branson, he will be like Jupiter or Mercury or Santa--omnipresent--and he will come as One who has a lot of groupies who slavver, weary from knowing that sometimes iif they did not slavver for Him they would slavver for Another.

Question is, does a groupie deserve to get into the Room simply because they slavver?


Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on January 05, 2008, 07:53:59 PM
<<And despite Tee's foaming at the mouth rant . . . >>

Let it be noted - - as sirs' credibility sinks ever lower, now hovering somewhere around 500 meters off the bottom of the Philippine Trench - - that my "foaming at the mouth rant" consisted of a fairly dry and methodical recap of sirs' challenge to hnumpah, hnumpah's answer to the challenge, sirs' immediate issuance of a newer, even crazier challenge, hnumpah's refusal to take the bait, and sirs' final, desperate and completely ludicrous non sequitur - - that if Christ advocated government action addressed to the material needs of the people, how much more would he have advocated government action aimed at facilitating the "salvation" of the people, since it was so much more important than material aid.  (The wording might not be exactly reproduced here, the craziness is captured with guaranteed 100% accuracy.)

<< . . . the point remains that at no time does Jesus advocate the forcible taking from someone to give to another. >>

I don't know how many times you can deny what's been set forth in black and white in front of your very eyes, but from the looks of this thread, it must be a very large number of times.  It may, in fact, be forever.

In response to the question whether the Jewish people should pay taxes to the Romans, Jesus said to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's.  He was telling people to pay their taxes.  It should be fairly obvious to any person with an I.Q. higher than that of the average house plant that the Romans were going to spend large portions, if not all, of those tax revenues on projects that would not meet with the approval of the average Jewish person or the average Son of God.  It is generally accepted that the Roman tax collector was not some lackadaisical, laid-back proto-hippie who collected taxes only from those who voluntarily wanted to pay them and gave everyone else a free pass.  They were known to be quite brutal and exacting in their methods.  They were known, on occasion to resort to (gasp!!) the use of force to collect those taxes.  Yet despite all that, Jesus told his followers to pay their taxes.

Get it?  Pay your taxes.  There's nothing wrong with it.  Even if some of the money goes to (gasp!!) the poor.  Jesus says it's OK.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 05, 2008, 08:01:19 PM
The part Tee doesn't get, and never will, is this has never been about if Jesus agreed or disagreed about paying taxes, and has ALWAYS been about what Christ teaches, in this case, if he would advocate the taking of something that belongs to person A, and give it to person B.  The scriptures that have been presented cleary demonstrate that at no time did jesus EVER teach such a process.  He always prefaced his teachings with the giving of oneself.  And if you missed that, let me repeat GIVING.  NOT taking, NOT forcible removal of something that belongs to someone in order to give to someone else, but to GIVE, as he gave. 

I'm guessing they'll never find a passage either that has Christ taking something from anyone to give to another.  Let's wait and see if that position of mine is at least refuted, since nothing else has been yet
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on January 05, 2008, 09:32:06 PM
I have to say Sirs, your point (if you have one) is bizarre. Mike makes an excellent observation. It is right there in black and white.

Moreover, you keep saying that person A owns something that is being forcibly given to person B. If you read your Bible (and the more you speak the more it seems that you do not read it) you'll know that person A owns nothing. He has been blessed by God. Everything of creation (and the fruits of creation) are God's, not the property of man. You continue to apply the law of man to God.

The only twisting I see here is from you. You've been given plenty of scripture, yet I've yet to see you produce anything from Christ that defends egoism (that's you buddy) or free-market economics. You let me know when you do.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Cynthia on January 05, 2008, 10:08:19 PM



When Jesus returns, if not in Cravensville (!!!!), Missouri, maybe Branson, he will be like Jupiter or Mercury or Santa--omnipresent--and he will come as One who has a lot of groupies who slavver, weary from knowing that sometimes iif they did not slavver for Him they would slavver for Another.

Question is, does a groupie deserve to get into the Room simply because they slavver?



[/quote]



....spoken like a true non believer. That was one of the strangest analogies I've heard in a while, though.

clap clap!
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Lanya on January 06, 2008, 12:01:53 AM
Sirs:
<<Why don't you provide scripture that demonstrates how Jesus would support goverment officials taking from one to give to another??  Perhaps because there ISN'T ANY??>>

"Render unto Caesar  that which is Caesar's."
Pay your taxes.  That means, give up your money to THE GOVERNMENT. It does not seem to matter what it is used for.  He just says to do it.
Do you obey, or do you parse words with Jesus?


Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on January 06, 2008, 12:38:29 AM
In context, how much of Caesars tribute went to feeding the poor?

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: hnumpah on January 06, 2008, 01:09:27 AM
Quote
In context, how much of Caesars tribute went to feeding the poor?

In context, what does it matter? Sirs' question was asked and answered, and when he decided he didn't like the answer, he started playing his little word games with it. Screw him.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Plane on January 06, 2008, 01:17:38 AM
To give to Ceaser wht is Ceasers , one must determine what Ceaser is due.

Even Ceaser himself didn't demand ruinous taxes unless he wanted ruin to result.


In our country we have the right and responsibility of voteing , I hope we vote for people who do not want to destroy or hobble the US economy, even if we make money personally by this destruction.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on January 06, 2008, 01:33:48 AM
Quote
In context, what does it matter? Sirs' question was asked and answered, and when he decided he didn't like the answer, he started playing his little word games with it. Screw him.

Context is everything. When Jesus said pay the taxman, perhaps he meant that church and state could coexist. The state wasn't feeding the poor, perhaps Jesus was saying the church would handle that burden.

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: hnumpah on January 06, 2008, 01:36:36 AM
If you want context, then read the passage. It's in your Bible, after all.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on January 06, 2008, 01:41:16 AM
i don't practice any religion, so why is it my bible?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 06, 2008, 02:21:58 AM
The continued problem with H, Js, Tee, etc., is in reference to the context of my question.  apparently it wasn't prefaced enough as to what was being asked, despite how clear I thought I had made it.  Christ's teachings, which Js was so quick to add to the thread early on.  My question had nothing to do with Jesus acknowledging taxation, and "giving unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's"  In contect that again was in reference to his being questioned as being the King of Kings, and if so, should they pay tribute to him.  All the scriptures presented make it clear that at no time dod Jesus TEACH that we are to forcibly take from someone and give to another.  Acknowledging that taxation was occuring and to give Ceasar what's his, is in no way, what-so-ever a teaching that we're to take from others in order to give to someone else.  This is made more clear by the fact at no time did he ever practice such.  At least no one's shown us any scriptures of such.  Instead we have the egregious contortions of scripture, that in context have nothing to do with teaching how we're to take from others.  Then when such a spotlight is shown on such, out come the insults.  But that's to be expected.  I KNOW that Christ never taught such, and if others have to twist scripture to rationalize how Jesus was supposedly some pro-taxation fella, well.....that's for their conscience to deal with
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Lanya on January 06, 2008, 03:54:01 AM
To give to Ceaser wht is Ceasers , one must determine what Ceaser is due.

Even Ceaser himself didn't demand ruinous taxes unless he wanted ruin to result.


In our country we have the right and responsibility of voteing , I hope we vote for people who do not want to destroy or hobble the US economy, even if we make money personally by this destruction.


We also have the duty to pay taxes. 

http://www.geocities.com/cobblestoneministries/2006/RenderUntoCaesar_KentHovindExample.html
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on January 06, 2008, 04:01:03 AM
Perhaps the render unto caesar was a pragmatic response. Certainly Jesus had bigger fish to fry than being caught up in a sedition trap.

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on January 06, 2008, 06:29:46 AM
Caesar's face was on the Roman coinage.
In the Temple, donations had to be with Jewish coins, because Caesar claimed he was a god.

One paid one's taxes with Caesar's money (Render to Caesar that which is Caesar's)
and one paid one's obligations to the Temple in Jewish coinage (Rendewr to God, that which is God's).

Jesus did apparently get ticked off by the exploitation of the money changers at the temple, who I suppose had unfair rates of exchange.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Michael Tee on January 06, 2008, 08:17:41 AM
As sirs? credibility continues its long descent, now hovering only 250 meters off the floor of the Philippine Trench:

Sirs (reply 182)
<<Why don't you provide scripture that demonstrates how Jesus would support goverment officials taking from one to give to another??  Perhaps because there ISN'T ANY?? >>
Sirs (reply 208)
<<The part Tee doesn't get, and never will, is this has never been about if Jesus agreed or disagreed about paying taxes, . . .  >>

And a little more goal-post moving as well, the point now being (according to sirs) not whether Jesus supported paying your taxes, but whether Jesus himself ever took from A to give to B: [still in sirs' reply 208]

<<I'm guessing they'll never find a passage either that has Christ taking something from anyone to give to another.  Let's wait and see if that position of mine is at least refuted, since nothing else has been yet>>

No?  Nothing?  And hnumpah never met your challenge?  Ohhhhh - kay.

As for BT's excellent question, how much of Caesar's tribute went to feeding the poor, I will quote the U. of Michigan web page on Augustus Caeasar, the Emperor at the time of Jesus' birth, who died when Jesus was 14:

<<Within the city of Rome itself, Augustus introduced a more regular supply of subsidized grain for the poor . . . He issued regular distributions of food and money at festivals and to commemorate important moments in his reign. In doing so he not only alleviated the suffering of the poor, but he also bound the lower classes to his house. Preferential treatment of the population of Rome was thus established as one of the foundations of imperial government.>>

http://www.umich.edu/~classics/programs/class/cc/372/sibyl/en/Augustus.html

That answer your question?


Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on January 06, 2008, 11:05:47 AM
Quote
In context, what does it matter? Sirs' question was asked and answered, and when he decided he didn't like the answer, he started playing his little word games with it. Screw him.

Context is everything. When Jesus said pay the taxman, perhaps he meant that church and state could coexist. The state wasn't feeding the poor, perhaps Jesus was saying the church would handle that burden.



OK, some context.

There was no Church until the Pentacost.

Moreover, you paid taxes to folks like Matthew who were loathed in society. They were Jews who worked for the Romans. They were not paid by the Romans though, instead they received their pay by meeting the Roman requirements for taxation and then they had to overcollect enough to make their own salary requirements. It was a racket. That is why, if you notice, Tax Collectors were considered on par with harlots, lepers, and the other dregs of society. They were committing two egregious sins in Jewish eyes: working with the enemy and cheating people (which violated the Law).

So when Christ said to "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's..." it went FAR beyond simply paying one's taxes. It was saying that it was a corrupt system, but that did not matter. Our rewards aren't for this world and cannot be purchased with money. More than that, He was demonstrating that His was a revolution in ideas not a violent revolution as the Jews were looking for in a Messiah.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: The_Professor on January 06, 2008, 11:09:27 AM
i don't practice any religion, so why is it my bible?


Ah, but by doing this, you practice one anyway. Voids are filled...
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on January 06, 2008, 01:56:28 PM
Quote
Ah, but by doing this, you practice one anyway. Voids are filled...

Is practicing a religion the same as having faith?

What is the difference between a Baptist and a Christian.

A Christian and a Theist?

An Agnostic and one who follows the golden rule?

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: hnumpah on January 06, 2008, 03:15:04 PM
Quote
i don't practice any religion, so why is it my bible?

I don't practice any religion, either, and I have several, in different translations. Would you like to borrow one of mine for your remedial reading?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on January 06, 2008, 05:37:32 PM
No thanks. I am quite happy with the way things are.

Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on January 09, 2008, 08:41:40 PM
Why don't you provide scripture that demonstrates how Jesus would support goverment officials taking from one to give to another??  Perhaps because there ISN'T ANY?? 

Christ's advocating that we help our fellow man does not equate to MANDATING that we help our fellow man.  It all goes back to free will....that which God gave us, the freedom to CHOOSE our actions and our paths.  At NO TIME DID JESUS EVER PREACH HOW WE'RE TO FORCE OUR FELLOW MAN TO HELP OTHER FELLOW MEN.  I defy you to refute that

Government is simply a tool for the will of the people.  If the people are christians then the government, as the peoples' tool, should be used to ease the suffering of the poor, hungry, infirm, etc.

The Statue of Liberty doesn't say, "send us your healthy, wealthy and wise libertarians".

Jesus, the man represented in the bible, would probably have beat the crap out of a wealthy capitalist and given his wealth to as many mothers with sick and hungry children as he could find.

I can't imagine Jesus telling a leper to get a job or pull himself up by his own bootstraps.

Apparently, you can.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Brassmask on January 09, 2008, 08:42:51 PM
In context, how much of Caesars tribute went to feeding the poor?



What does that matter?  Caesar is represented today by our government.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 09, 2008, 10:58:16 PM
Why don't you provide scripture that demonstrates how Jesus would support goverment officials taking from one to give to another??  Perhaps because there ISN'T ANY?? 

Christ's advocating that we help our fellow man does not equate to MANDATING that we help our fellow man.  It all goes back to free will....that which God gave us, the freedom to CHOOSE our actions and our paths.  At NO TIME DID JESUS EVER PREACH HOW WE'RE TO FORCE OUR FELLOW MAN TO HELP OTHER FELLOW MEN.  I defy you to refute that

Government is simply a tool for the will of the people.  If the people are christians then the government, as the peoples' tool, should be used to ease the suffering of the poor, hungry, infirm, etc.

Then they are not acting as Christians, because at no time did Christ advocate or teach such a practice.  Now, the scriptures that Tee, Js, and H have consistently demonstrated is a call by Christ for Christians to act together ---> BY THEIR OWN VOLITION.  If people want to get togther and help their fellow man ==> that's Christ like, and consistent with his teachings.  If people want to donate services, money, time, etc to a 3rd party organization that wishes to...well organize and apply said donations ==> again Christ like, consistent with his teachings.  When people TAKE from others to help their fellow man, regardless, == NOT Christ like or related to any of his teachings.  And there in lies the chasm of difference in this tangent.  No one is stopping anyone that wants to help, and Christ advocates that man do help each other.  But at no time did Christ advocate that you will be mandated to help your fellow man.  It's simply a teaching that you should, not that you must.


I can't imagine Jesus telling a leper to get a job or pull himself up by his own bootstraps.  Apparently, you can.

Absolutely he would.  He'd probably also help find a job for the leper (after miraculously healing him of course), or more likely have him simply follow him along his teachings.  He'd probably help to find a place to live, and maybe even give him some of hiw own money.  He wouldn't take from someone else, and turn around to give him someone else's belongings.  I defy you to show me an example of where he ever did.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Cynthia on January 09, 2008, 11:04:05 PM
Good post, Sirs.

Cynthia
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 09, 2008, 11:13:28 PM
Thankee Miss Cynthia.  I do what little I can     8)
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Plane on January 09, 2008, 11:39:10 PM
Why don't you provide scripture that demonstrates how Jesus would support goverment officials taking from one to give to another??  Perhaps because there ISN'T ANY?? 

Christ's advocating that we help our fellow man does not equate to MANDATING that we help our fellow man.  It all goes back to free will....that which God gave us, the freedom to CHOOSE our actions and our paths.  At NO TIME DID JESUS EVER PREACH HOW WE'RE TO FORCE OUR FELLOW MAN TO HELP OTHER FELLOW MEN.  I defy you to refute that

Government is simply a tool for the will of the people.  If the people are christians then the government, as the peoples' tool, should be used to ease the suffering of the poor, hungry, infirm, etc.

The Statue of Liberty doesn't say, "send us your healthy, wealthy and wise libertarians".

Jesus, the man represented in the bible, would probably have beat the crap out of a wealthy capitalist and given his wealth to as many mothers with sick and hungry children as he could find.

I can't imagine Jesus telling a leper to get a job or pull himself up by his own bootstraps.

Apparently, you can.

"Government is simply a tool for the will of the people.  If the people are christians then the government, as the peoples' tool, should be used to ease the suffering of the poor, hungry, infirm, etc."

Des ET include putting the ten commandments on the courthouse lawn again?
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Cynthia on January 10, 2008, 12:26:04 AM
Thankee Miss Cynthia.  I do what little I can     8)

I call em as I see em...no matter what party....liner.
You have a conviction that is pure in spirit, Sirs.

Rings so true to Christians...abound.
C*
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 10, 2008, 11:46:52 AM
"Government is simply a tool for the will of the people.  If the people are christians then the government, as the peoples' tool, should be used to ease the suffering of the poor, hungry, infirm, etc."

Des ET include putting the ten commandments on the courthouse lawn again?


*snicker*....touche', Plane       ;)
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on January 10, 2008, 11:51:37 AM
"Government is simply a tool for the will of the people.  If the people are christians then the government, as the peoples' tool, should be used to ease the suffering of the poor, hungry, infirm, etc."

Des ET include putting the ten commandments on the courthouse lawn again?


*snicker*....touche', Plane       ;)

Yes, because posting the 10 Commandments feeds how many hungry? Clothes how many naked? Visits how many prisoners?

Go push a cross into the ground and bitch about abortion while kids are dying of the runs. F***ing cowards.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on January 10, 2008, 12:21:35 PM
That was way out of line and I apologize to Sirs and Plane.

As you may have guessed I do not take faith lightly. I do not like to see these petty (IMHO) battles which are so intertwined in petty human politics when so many humans are suffering right now and we seem to argue over the mundane and ridiculous.

Still, I acted not out of charity, but out of anger and for that I am very sorry.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 10, 2008, 01:26:02 PM
Apology unnecessary, but accepted
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: Plane on January 10, 2008, 01:31:29 PM
"Government is simply a tool for the will of the people.  If the people are christians then the government, as the peoples' tool, should be used to ease the suffering of the poor, hungry, infirm, etc."

Des ET include putting the ten commandments on the courthouse lawn again?


*snicker*....touche', Plane       ;)

Yes, because posting the 10 Commandments feeds how many hungry? Clothes how many naked? Visits how many prisoners?

Go push a cross into the ground and bitch about abortion while kids are dying of the runs. F***ing cowards.

Most of us are Christians , at least nominally , even if we disagre about the ideal way to worship and serve him. Since we are a majority what we say goes right? We should command our governent to decorate itself with  Christian symbols and perform charitable actions for the greater glory of Christ.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: _JS on January 10, 2008, 02:11:14 PM
Most of us are Christians , at least nominally , even if we disagre about the ideal way to worship and serve him. Since we are a majority what we say goes right? We should command our governent to decorate itself with  Christian symbols and perform charitable actions for the greater glory of Christ.

The problems are many.

(For some reason I've been in a numbering mood)

1. Each has to come to God in his or her own way.
2. I don't want your Christian symbols and I'm guessing that you don't want mine. Some Christians (like the Quakers) don't want any.
3. My point, which I expressed very rudely, was that something like posting the ten commandments is only a political and in-your-face gesture. It is controversial and in the end does nothing for anyone except create division and anger. Whereas, that time and effort could have been spent doing good.

My problem is that you all want the Government to do things, make no mistake about that. You want the Government to outlaw abortion. You want your state to execute certain criminals. You want this country to invade another nation. You may want it to build a wall to keep the poor of a neighboring nation from coming here. In those cases you have no problem with taxes being collected and applied to those purposes.

You can say that those have nothing to do with Christianity, but you and I both know that Christianity doesn't exist for an hour on Sunday morning then stop.

I don't recall Christ supporting any of those, especially when it gets to things like simulated drowning and electroshocking the genitals of prisoners. We pay for that too. Yet, I propose that we do more to help the poor and yes, I think that Christ would appreciate the effort (Matthew 25) and I am labeled as someone who "contorts Christianity to fit my ideologies."

I find that extremely interesting. I am distorting Christianity, but the "good Christians" support simulated drowning and electroshock of prisoners. They support "shock & awe" warfare. But hey, I've apparently been righteously condemned for my errors by Sirs. Lucky me.
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: sirs on January 10, 2008, 02:42:50 PM
 ::)
Title: Re: Why so scared of Christmas?
Post by: BT on January 11, 2008, 01:21:56 AM
Quote
Ah, but by doing this, you practice one anyway. Voids are filled..

What religion is the golden rule?