DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: _JS on February 29, 2008, 12:21:53 PM
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Israeli minister warns of Palestinian 'holocaust'
Staff and agencies guardian.co.uk
Friday February 29 2008
(http://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/02/29/building276b.jpg)
A Sderot chicken factory damaged by a Hamas rocket. Photograph: AP/Almog Sugavker
An Israeli minister today warned of increasingly bitter conflict in the Gaza Strip, saying the Palestinians could bring on themselves what he called a "holocaust".
"The more Qassam [rocket] fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves," Matan Vilnai, Israel's deputy defence minister, told army radio.
Shoah is the Hebrew word normally reserved to refer to the Jewish Holocaust. It is rarely used in Israel outside discussions of the Nazi extermination of Jews during the second world war, and many Israelis are loath to countenance its use to describe other events.
The minister's statement came after two days of tit-for-tat missile raids between Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip and the Israeli army. At least 32 Palestinians and one Israeli have been killed since the surge in violence on Wednesday.
Today Israel activated a rocket warning system to protect Ashkelon, a city of 120,000 people, from Palestinian attacks.
Ashkelon was hit by several Grad rockets fired from Gaza yesterday. One hit an apartment building, slicing through the roof and three floors below, and another landed near a school, wounding a 17-year-old girl.
Located 11 miles from Gaza, Ashkelon has been sporadically targeted before but not suffered direct hits or significant damage.
"It will be sad, and difficult, but we have no other choice," Vilnai said, referring to the large-scale military operation he said Israel was preparing to bring a halt to the rocket fire.
"We're getting close to using our full strength. Until now, we've used a small percentage of the army's power because of the nature of the territory."
Israel would not launch a ground offensive in the next week or two, partly because the military would prefer to wait for better weather, defence sources said. But the army had completed its preparations and was awaiting the government's order to move, officials said.
Until now, the Palestinian rocket squads have largely targeted Sderot, a small town near Gaza. Ashkelon, a big population centre only 25 miles from Tel Aviv, was caught unprepared, its mayor said on Friday.
"It's a city of 120,000 people, with large facilities ? a huge soccer stadium, a basketball stadium and a beach. No one is ready for this," Roni Mehatzri told Israel Radio.
Dozens of soldiers in orange berets from the Israeli military's home front command arrived in Ashkelon and hung posters around the city telling residents what to do in case of rocket attack.
The barrage of Iranian-made Grads directed at Ashkelon yesterday came after an escalation of violence in Gaza. Israel killed five Hamas militants on Wednesday morning, apparently including two planners of the rocket attacks, in an air strike on a minivan.
Later in the day, a Palestinian rocket killed an Israeli civilian, a 47-year-old father of four, in Sderot.
Hamas, an Islamist group with close ties to Iran, has ruled Gaza since its violent takeover there in June 2006.
Since Wednesday, 32 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli missile strikes, including 14 civilians, among them eight children, according to Palestinian officials. The youngest was a six-month-old boy, Mohammed al-Borai, whose funeral was held yesterday.
There were further indications that Israel was preparing for an offensive by sending confidential messages to world leaders, including the US secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, who plans to visit the region next week.
"Israel is not keen on, and rushing for, an offensive, but Hamas is leaving us no choice," the Israeli defence minister, Ehud Barak, told the senior figures, according to Israel's mass circulation daily, Yedioth Ahronoth.
Security sources were quoted by both Israel Radio and army radio as saying a big operation was being prepared but was not imminent.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/29/israelandthepalestinians1
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Let's hope Israel is finally ready to deal with this problem in a substantial way.
It's time to put an end to these murderous attacks.
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I concur. Dealing from a position of strength is always preferable.
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Maybe they're waiting till January so they can tell Obama to shove it up his ass.
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<<It's time to put an end to these murderous attacks.>>
I agree. 32 Palestinians including eight children dead. It IS time to put an end to these murderous attacks.
An escalation of Israel's murderous attacks on the civilians of Palestine can have only one result - - a closing of ranks against Israel, more support for the hard-line rejectionist factions of Palestinian and Arab politics. More financial, diplomatic and military support. And more internal agitation for the fall of local pro-Amerikkkan puppet governments in the region. At a time when Amerikkka has its bloodstained hands full in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The status quo is intolerable. Something has to give and something has to start the process. An Israeli holocaust inflicted on the defenceless Arab population of Gaza and/or the West Bank is probably the quickest way I can think of. Also igniting even more worldwide anger against Amerikkka just as its economy is starting to circle the drain. Excellent.
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<<It's time to put an end to these murderous attacks.>>
I agree. 32 Palestinians including eight children dead. It IS time to put an end to these murderous attacks.
An escalation of Israel's murderous attacks on the civilians of Palestine can have only one result - - a closing of ranks against Israel, more support for the hard-line rejectionist factions of Palestinian and Arab politics. More financial, diplomatic and military support. And more internal agitation for the fall of local pro-Amerikkkan puppet governments in the region. At a time when Amerikkka has its bloodstained hands full in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The status quo is intolerable. Something has to give and something has to start the process. An Israeli holocaust inflicted on the defenceless Arab population of Gaza and/or the West Bank is probably the quickest way I can think of. Also igniting even more worldwide anger against Amerikkka just as its economy is starting to circle the drain. Excellent.
In many other issues such as these, I concur, MT. As I have indicated, we should not have gotten involved in Iraq and so on. But, Israel is a unique category due to its "specialness" as the Chosen People. Heck, you are one! I know we disagree, but I believe Israel will not only survive all this, but thrive. Why? And thus it is written...
You keep saying we on the Right have been tainted by the Zionist lobby, well, it is sad that you have been tainted and so do not support your birthright as one of God's Chosen Few. You see, there is no real differentiation between Israel the nation and Israel the nation geographically placed. You fell for that misconceived view and continue to proliferate it as well. They are one, the Chosen People and Their God-given Destiny. You therefore reject your own Heritage. Where is your yamkia? Where is yout Torah? Do you read it? In Revelations, it is said that the Lord will spit you out if you are lukewarm. Are you lukewarm, MT? It is your call whether you are or not, and between you and God, but please do not spout all this Israel is one thing and yet another while calling us contaminated by certain grouips in the same breath.
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On the plane back from Miami (to change at Philly) I sat next to a very liberal Jewish Democratic activist and fund-raiser, a guy who's met Bill Clinton personally six or seven times. (I didn't ask about Hillary or Obama.) One of the things he said (relevant to this thread) was that the severest critics of Israel that he's ever met are all Jews. I'm very proud of that. Unlike most Amerikkkans, we can criticize a country we love. Severely. Because we are not brainwashed morons.
If you read the Bible as much as you seem to do, Professor, I think you'll find that the same thing was as true then as it is now. The Prophets of Israel rained down fire-and-brimstone shitstorms of invective against Israel, denouncing every fucking thing that they were doing wrong. That is because they expect better conduct from Israel than they do from the goyim (gentiles.) That is the real meaning of a Chosen People - - not chosen to be spoiled and pampered and given dominion over the earth, like the Anglo-Saxons or maybe now the Chinese, but chosen to obey God's word, to take the hard road and not the easy way. To be different. Let Harry Truman drop the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (not that the fucking bastards didn't deserve it.) But the Jews are not gonna drop that bomb. Not if they don't have to. And especially not if the objective is to shield themselves from the legitimate anger of the people they have robbed and despoiled.
Israel will survive and it will survive without acting like Nazis or Amerikkkans but like Jews - - with some humanity and grace, and as best it can. And if it doesn't survive, that's OK too. Israel has been pushed under before. We aren't as terrified as you seem to be of the roof falling in, because the roof already HAS fallen in on us, more than once. You really should get rid of your fear, Professor. Fear makes men do terrible things.
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You see, there is no real differentiation between Israel the nation and Israel the nation geographically placed.
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Israel, the original Israel, was destroyed about 100 AD by the Romans.
There have always been some Jews living in what was Israel then and is still Israel today, but the new state was founded in 1947, and is not the same as the former one, just as the England that built Stonehenge is not the same as modern England.
MT simply disagrees with the politics of the current Israeli administration. I hardly think it is your place to tell him he can't do this.
I imagine that MT owns several yarmulkes, and has a menorah or two and even several souveniers from Israel. he is more likely than you to drink Manishevitz or Mogen David and to attend a bris. But if he doesn't, that does not necessarily make him less Jewish.
I would think that if Osama is elected president of the US, it would be a bad idea for Israel to tell a US president to shove anything anywhere. If he were defeated, it would be useless.
Israel is a beggar nation with regard to the US. The money that the US gives Israel is vastly more than anything Israel has ever done or will ever do for the US. The money that American Jews, many of whom are quite patriotic Americans is even more than the aid money. So the chance that Israel will ever tell any US president to shove anything is far less likely than hearing Dick Cheney and Juniorbush doing a rap album denouncing Exxon-Mobil.
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<<I imagine that MT owns several yarmulkes, and has a menorah or two and even several souveniers from Israel. he is more likely than you to drink Manishevitz or Mogen David and to attend a bris. But if he doesn't, that does not necessarily make him less Jewish.>>
That was funny, XO. I keep a yarmulke in my jacket pocket and my glove compartment in case I have to go to a graveyard, but I was raised in the Reform Jewish tradition which doesn't use yarmulkes (or didn't when I was a kid) and doesn't observe the dietary laws. I have no souvenirs from Israel on principle - - I don't like the way they treat people, and when they start treating Arabs like human beings, maybe I'll start patronizing their arts and crafts. I've never visited there, for the same reason. My late father-in-law, however, is buried in Ashkelon (which the story mentioned) because he died there on a visit. We DO have a few menorahs in the house, none of them mine (my wife is more into this bullshit than I am) and we're a lot more likely to drink Beaujolais or Chianti than Manischewitz or Mogen David. I can't recall ever buying or even receiving a bottle of either of the latter brands. Not only did I attend bris, at the last one (my grandson's) I had the dubious honour of holding the little guy's legs down while the moyel (the guy with the knife) did his thing. That's a lot harder emotionally than you might think. Philosophically, I'm against it (it's ritual infant mutilation) but I had it done to my son and it continues because it's like breaking a chain letter that is thousands of years old - - even if it's bullshit, why be the one to break the chain?
Amerikkkan money has ruined and corrupted the Jews of Israel. When they began the State, it was a Socialist state and its weapons came mainly from Communist Czechoslovakia. The kibbutzim of Israel were some of the purest forms of socialism on this planet. Now they are like little gentiles themselves - - their conduct, their morals and their ethics often indistinguishable from those of their "benefactors." It is Amerikkkan aid that enables them to act like ass-holes towards their ethnic cousins and display the kind of arrogance and contempt that in the end may well be their downfall. This would not be the first time that the Jewish people have bought into the Golden Calf and IMHO they are really going a long way down a dead-end street.
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On the plane back from Miami (to change at Philly) I sat next to a very liberal Jewish Democratic activist and fund-raiser, a guy who's met Bill Clinton personally six or seven times. (I didn't ask about Hillary or Obama.) One of the things he said (relevant to this thread) was that the severest critics of Israel that he's ever met are all Jews. I'm very proud of that. Unlike most Amerikkkans, we can criticize a country we love. Severely. Because we are not brainwashed morons.
If you read the Bible as much as you seem to do, Professor, I think you'll find that the same thing was as true then as it is now. The Prophets of Israel rained down fire-and-brimstone shitstorms of invective against Israel, denouncing every fucking thing that they were doing wrong. That is because they expect better conduct from Israel than they do from the goyim (gentiles.) That is the real meaning of a Chosen People - - not chosen to be spoiled and pampered and given dominion over the earth, like the Anglo-Saxons or maybe now the Chinese, but chosen to obey God's word, to take the hard road and not the easy way. To be different. Let Harry Truman drop the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (not that the fucking bastards didn't deserve it.) But the Jews are not gonna drop that bomb. Not if they don't have to. And especially not if the objective is to shield themselves from the legitimate anger of the people they have robbed and despoiled.
Israel will survive and it will survive without acting like Nazis or Amerikkkans but like Jews - - with some humanity and grace, and as best it can. And if it doesn't survive, that's OK too. Israel has been pushed under before. We aren't as terrified as you seem to be of the roof falling in, because the roof already HAS fallen in on us, more than once. You really should get rid of your fear, Professor. Fear makes men do terrible things.
Good post, MT. Yes, the prophets, both Major af Minor, did exactly this per God's direction. God used thme to point out the wrongness of the Jews time and time again. Actually, they were Chosen to do what you indicated and Chosen by God to be His special people, to follow His teachings and to populate the Earth per His direction.
I do not have any fear, MT. How could I, MT, when I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that God will protect Israel?
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You see, there is no real differentiation between Israel the nation and Israel the nation geographically placed.
==============================================================
Israel, the original Israel, was destroyed about 100 AD by the Romans.
There have always been some Jews living in what was Israel then and is still Israel today, but the new state was founded in 1947, and is not the same as the former one, just as the England that built Stonehenge is not the same as modern England.
MT simply disagrees with the politics of the current Israeli administration. I hardly think it is your place to tell him he can't do this.
I imagine that MT owns several yarmulkes, and has a menorah or two and even several souveniers from Israel. he is more likely than you to drink Manishevitz or Mogen David and to attend a bris. But if he doesn't, that does not necessarily make him less Jewish.
I would think that if Osama is elected president of the US, it would be a bad idea for Israel to tell a US president to shove anything anywhere. If he were defeated, it would be useless.
Israel is a beggar nation with regard to the US. The money that the US gives Israel is vastly more than anything Israel has ever done or will ever do for the US. The money that American Jews, many of whom are quite patriotic Americans is even more than the aid money. So the chance that Israel will ever tell any US president to shove anything is far less likely than hearing Dick Cheney and Juniorbush doing a rap album denouncing Exxon-Mobil.
"MT simply disagrees with the politics of the current Israeli administration. I hardly think it is your place to tell him he can't do this."
Sorry, I did not mean to imply that at all. MT is certainly allowed any and all postulating on this or any other issue, even if sometimes he is WAY out in left field. ;D
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<<I do not have any fear, MT. How could I, MT, when I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that God will protect Israel?>>
Well right there we have a little problem, Professor. God does not always protect Israel. Sometimes when He is really pissed off at them, He lets them have it with both barrels. And sometimes, without any obvious provocation, as in the Holocaust of my own lifetime, He unleashes the whirlwind on them without any apparent justification at all. Ours not to wonder why. If I were God, I would be in a towering rage about now, over the way the Jews have acted towards the Palestinians. Hopefully, the Good Lord is a little bit more tolerant than I am.
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How terribly sad it is.
That this Leader is a Jew and uses the word Shoah which he certainly understands .
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God does not always protect Israel. Sometimes when He is really pissed off at them, He lets them have it with both barrels. And sometimes, without any obvious provocation, as in the Holocaust of my own lifetime, He unleashes the whirlwind on them without any apparent justification at all.
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I can't see any possible motive for the Holocaust from God's point of view. I don't see how God could have created Nazis with the express motive of punishing Jews. It would sort of imply that the Germans had no free will at all,that Hitler was in some way an agent of Satan.
The best theological construct I can imagine from a logical point of view is that of God the clockwinder. He makes a universe, winds it up and walks away, perhaps off to make another clockwork universe. We, as cogs in the works, have the options of wobbling to the left or right a bit. Our free will is certainly vastly less than it could be, restricted as we are to size, strength, longevity and such.
There is the theory that God underestimated the noise involved in the Big Bang, and went deaf as a result. Maybe blind, too.
Of course, the Universe might simply be timeless, with no end OR beginning, and like a kaleidoscope, it changes again and again until every possible permutation and possibity has occurred, then it starts all over again, simple because that is its nature.
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God does not always protect Israel. Sometimes when He is really pissed off at them, He lets them have it with both barrels. And sometimes, without any obvious provocation, as in the Holocaust of my own lifetime, He unleashes the whirlwind on them without any apparent justification at all.
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I can't see any possible motive for the Holocaust from God's point of view. I don't see how God could have created Nazis with the express motive of punishing Jews. It would sort of imply that the Germans had no free will at all,that Hitler was in some way an agent of Satan.
The best theological construct I can imagine from a logical point of view is that of God the clockwinder. He makes a universe, winds it up and walks away, perhaps off to make another clockwork universe. We, as cogs in the works, have the options of wobbling to the left or right a bit. Our free will is certainly vastly less than it could be, restricted as we are to size, strength, longevity and such.
There is the theory that God underestimated the noise involved in the Big Bang, and went deaf as a result. Maybe blind, too.
Of course, the Universe might simply be timeless, with no end OR beginning, and like a kaleidoscope, it changes again and again until every possible permutation and possibity has occurred, then it starts all over again, simple because that is its nature.
Does your theroy require that we will always understand the choices , purposes and work of a being of greater intelligence than we have?
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<<Of course, the Universe might simply be timeless, with no end OR beginning, and like a kaleidoscope, it changes again and again until every possible permutation and possibity has occurred, then it starts all over again, simple because that is its nature.>>
That's Schopenhauer's Theory of Eternal Recurrences. Since the amount of matter in the universe is finite but the existence of the universe is eternal, sooner or later every combination of matter (such as the present constitution of the universe) will repeat. Thus the present moment has already come and gone an infinite number of times and will repeat an infinite number of future times. Since we won't exist in between the combination and the recombination, we have no memory of the intervening trillions of years, but exist only in this eternal present.
If God is using the Nazis to punish the Jews, you're right - - the Nazis have no free will. They're like the animals of the forest. They can't be punished for what they do because they are not the Chosen People of God, so God does not expect moral conduct from them. Actually, in Orthodox Jewish theology, gentiles have no souls and are just a part of the universe created by God for the Jews to live out whatever lives they have to live, whether as entertainment moguls, slaves of the Pharaoh, Holocaust victims or Borscht Belt comedians. There was a Talmudic phrase in the Hebrew language, "animals without souls," which the rabbis used to describe the gentiles. This is one of the reasons I don't really buy into the religion - - the whole thing sounds kinda racist to me.
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How terribly sad it is.
That this Leader is a Jew and uses the word Shoah which he certainly understands .
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That's not sad, it's disgraceful. A Jew who has learned absolutely nothing from the Holocaust.
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The deputy defense minister is being honest.
If the palestinians continue to lob rockets over the border Israel will have no choice but to respond .
They do have the right to protect their citizens.
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and some half-wit was saying in here recently
that Isreal could not exterminate the enemy?
yeah, you wanna bet?
again, there would be no missles if I was in charge.
just like there are no missles coming from the confederacy
you freaking destroy the enemy or they continue to be a pest
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well
maybe they can`t
palestine and israel have that in common ,these are people not truely tied to the land despite all they say
if that chunk of land get blown up
most definately the people will still be around.
remember most of the population is imported from around the world.
complicated just don`t describe it.
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<<They do have the right to protect their citizens. >>
With a holocaust?? You're as crazy as they are.
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You quibble about words. Language is universal. No one owns a word. Holocaust is no more sacred than trail of tears.
The jist of the statement is innocent civilians will die if Palestinians continue to lob rockets over the border. Because Israel certainly will respond. And rockets don't discriminate.
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<<You quibble about words. Language is universal. No one owns a word. Holocaust is no more sacred than trail of tears.>>
Words have meanings, BT. Unless you are sirs, in which case a word means whatever you want it to mean.
<<The jist of the statement is innocent civilians will die if Palestinians continue to lob rockets . . . >>
Use your head. Innocent civilians are already dying every day NOW because the Palestinians are lobbing rockets. 32 Arabs to one Jew. Including eight dead Arab children. You're telling me those eight kids weren't innocent?
"Holocaust" means MORE than 32 civilians. He's threatening massive carnage. That's what Holocaust means.
<<Because Israel certainly will respond. And rockets don't discriminate.>>
Pay attention to what the guy said. He did NOT say "Israel will respond." What he said was that Israel would unleash a Holocaust upon the Palestinians.
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US warships move into E. Mediterranean in case Gaza escalation
spills over into Lebanon
February 29, 2008, 1:30 PM (GMT+02:00)
Egyptian Gen. Suleiman cancels Israel visit
Friday, Feb. 29, Egypt?s intelligence minister Omar Suleiman canceled his visit to Israel because of estimates in Cairo that hectic preparations current in Israel and the Gaza Strip augur a steep escalation of cross-border violence.
DEBKAfile?s military sources report: Officials in Cairo expect Israel redouble its air bombardment and armored raids against Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip, and Hamas to intensify and broaden the scope of its missile and rocket attacks on Israeli towns and villages.
Both sides are convinced that a further ratcheting-up of the war will generate indirect truce talks through a third party.
The US has meanwhile posted naval and marine vessels opposite the shores of Israel and Lebanon in case the fighting spreads to a second front. DEBKAfile?s Washington sources quote US and Israeli military sources as skeptical of the chances that prime minister Ehud Olmert and defense minister Ehud Barak will secure a ceasefire. The Gaza conflagration is more likely, they believe, to stir Hizballah to ignite a fresh assault from South Lebanon.
These sources point to four significant developments to watch for:
1. Hizballah is adamant about avenging the death of its military commander Imad Mughniyeh by border strikes against Israel and terrorist attacks inside the country. This Iranian front group is also committed to helping Hamas. The end of the 40 days of mourning for Mughniyeh on March 22-23 is anxiously awaited.
2. Israel is braced for this eventuality and in mid-preparation for its army to turn the tables on a Hizballah assault and carry the war into Lebanon.
US intelligence sources note that last week, the IDF deployed Patriot missile defense batteries around Haifa in case Hizballah unleashes a rocket offensive on the North as in 2005.
Our sources also report that local authorities and private security firms responsible for public safety in northern Israel were instructed to inspect bomb shelters and ascertain they were ready for use by March 10.
3. The quarrel between Saudi King Abdullah and Syrian president Bashar Assad, which is nearing boiling point, threatens to be fought out in Lebanon, their main bone of contention. Both are sending quantities of arms and ammo to the Lebanese militias under their respective wings.
4. This week, Abdullah persuaded Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak and Jordan?s Abdullah to boycott the forthcoming Arab League summit in Damascus. Assad is unlikely to take this slap in the face lying down. There are indications he is ready to stir up Palestinian terrorist groups for attacks on Saudi, American and Israeli interests in the region.
Standing close by for immediate action off the troubled Mediterranean shores of Lebanon, Israel and Gaza is the USS Cole guided missile destroyer opposite Lebanon. It was joined Monday by the USS Nassau amphibious warship and its strike group of six vessels carrying 2,800 marines, flight crews and sailors. US naval sources report that a third group will join them shortly.
DEBKAfile?s military sources report the Nassau is accompanied by the amphibious transport dock ship USS Nashville , the guided missile destroyers USS Ross and USS Bulkeley and the fast nuclear strike submarine USS Albany SSN 753.
While cruising off the Lebanese coast, this formidable US naval force (AKA KICK SOME Hizballah ASS) is close enough to the shores of Israel and Gaza to respond to developing emergencies.
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<<The Gaza conflagration is more likely, they believe, to stir Hizballah to ignite a fresh assault from South Lebanon.>>
Anything's possible, but I will stick my neck out and predict that Hezbollah will NOT attack Israel from South Lebanon. The reason being that Israel WANTS the confrontation. Israel is prepared. Israel got its ass kicked and wants a rematch. Desperately. The assassination of Mughniyeh in Damascus was a deliberate provocation. But Hezbollah's a guerrilla organization. They attack when they choose to attack, not when Israel wants them to attack. And they attack where they choose to attack, not where Israel expects them to attack.
I believe that Mughniyeh will be avenged, but the time and place will be chosen by Hezbollah, not dictated by Israel.
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I believe that Mughniyeh will be avenged, but the time and place will be chosen by Hezbollah, not dictated by Israel.
And wherever that is don't expect Israel to be burdened with the niceties of a proportional response, no matter the name.
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Fires blaze in Ashkelon's shopping center from direct rocket hit Saturday as Gaza war intensifies
March 1, 2008, 4:46 PM (GMT+02:00)
Ashkelon woman wounded by Palestinian rocket
Military sources report that after 21 missiles slammed into Ashkelon and Sderot and their environs overnight, Israeli Givati Brigade troops backed by tanks, F-16 fighters and helicopters went after terrorist targets in Sejaya and Jebalya, N. Gaza Strip early morning Saturday, March 1. Five Israeli soldiers were injured, two very seriously. The Palestinians report 32 dead and dozens of injured casualties.
Two waves of Grad rockets hit the Israeli town of Ashkelon for the third day running. Two crashed into a house, injuring 5 people, two of them children. There were dozens of shock victims. Another 11 Qassam missiles explode at Sderot early Saturday - 39 in all so far.
Our military sources report the Israeli military command is now targeting Hamas rule of the Gaza Strip as ultimately the only effective way of halting the Palestinian missile offensive against civilian locations. It therefore proposes to systematically destroy Hamas institutions one by one until its rule of Gaza caves in.
This tactic was presented to prime minister Ehud Olmert Friday on his return from Japan. If Hamas alternatively decides it can no longer afford the exorbitant price exacted by the Israeli military for sustaining its missile offensive, so much the better. Meanwhile, the port town of Ashdod north of Ashkelon and 27 km from Gaza is preparing for start of Palestinian rockets attacks. Twelve alert systems are ready.
The IDF has set itself the following targets:
Every Palestinian military and security installation belonging to Hamas, as well as its Al Dawa social welfare branches used as meeting places and the money changers? places of business.
A series of ground operations on the same lines as the Sejayia raid will be launched to drive Hamas and its allied terrorist groups out of northern Gaza ? the sites of most missile launches against Ashkelon and Sderot. Once this part of the territory is purged, Israeli military control can be exercised without reoccupation.
Palestinian sources report that Hamas leaders are well aware of the IDF's revamped tactics and have employed counter-measures.
1. Their heads of government, armed wings and clerical authorities have gone to ground.
2. Their rank and file have taken over an estimated 3,000 to 4,000 civilian homes around Gaza City active and set up a wall for the town's defense. Each home is provisioned with sufficient ammo, water and food for three weeks? combat.
3. All Hamas operatives have dumped their cell phones and all means of communication which could betray their whereabouts. Orders and messages are carried by courier, usually children.
4. Thousands of missiles and rockets of different types are stocked in private homes and schools inside Gaza City and its refugee camps to escape Israeli attacks. This stratagem allows Hamas to calibrate its missile barrages on Israeli civilians according to the intensity of Israeli strikes against them.
http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=5066 (http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=5066)
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Does your theroy require that we will always understand the choices , purposes and work of a being of greater intelligence than we have?
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My theory doesn't actually attribute the universe to any creation.
There may or may not be a greater intelligence than we have. would imagine that in a nearly infinite universe there are many, but they did not have anything to do with the design of the universe.
It seems pretty obvious to me that whatever the purpose of the universe, it was not intended that we comprehend it. f we do, that is fine, just as we understand gravity or the difference between an atmosphere and a vacuum, but if we don't, the universe and whomever or whatever designed it is not concerned with that.
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<<Anything's possible, but I will stick my neck out and predict that Hezbollah will NOT attack Israel from South Lebanon. >>
Correct so far. These rocket attacks on Ashkelon and Sderot seem to be Hamas, not Hezbollah. Hamas is the choice of the Palestinian people. It can be forced underground but it will re-surface.
El pueblo!/ unido!/ jamas sera vencido! (Cesar Chavez)
Crunch time is fast approaching. The Israelis could not continue to occupy Gaza because of the cost. They can invade. They can bombard. They can destroy. Every time they do, they solidify the will of the people, they sap the strength of the "moderates," the "two-state-solution" advocates and they strengthen the grip of the extremists, the rejectionists. One thing they cannot do is hold the land - - so in the end, the Hamas government keeps the upper hand.
[Holy shit! I just noticed, the pronunciation of the last three words of the Cesar Chavez/La Raza slogan, is like the English "Hamas sera vencido!" ("Hamas will be conquered.") Is that a sign or a symbol??]
I think they gotta talk - - soon. Israel can't avoid its moment of truth much longer.
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and some half-wit was saying in here recently
that Isreal could not exterminate the enemy?
yeah, you wanna bet?
again, there would be no missles if I was in charge.
just like there are no missles coming from the confederacy
you freaking destroy the enemy or they continue to be a pest
===============================================================
So according to you, the union destroyed the confederacy, the Allies destroyed the Germans (twice) and the Vietnamese destroyed the United States. Extermination is very rarely the solution to a confrontational situation. The Israelis might barely be able to exterminate the two million plus people in Gaza, but this is not really an option, as genocide, especially for nations with a government, is opposed by everyone everywhere. What happened in Rwanda and Cambodia resulted in the end of both governments within a very short time. If Israel exterminated the people of Gaza, that would make Israel a pariah state, and that would end it for Israel in its present condition.
Defeating the Gazans that are building the rockets would be possible for a short term, since within several months different Gazans would be at it again. This seems to be what Isreal is trying to do presently.
There is a difference between defeat and extermination. perhaps you did not understand that.
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Jam?s in Spanish means "never". The word is generally attributed to '?rabe', but in Spain that means what people speak in Morocco, which Moroccans call Arabic, but isn't.
HAMAS (in Arabic, an acronym for "Harakat Al-Muqawama Al-Islamia" -- Islamic Resistance Movement -- and a word meaning zeal) is a radical Islamic fundamentalist organization which became active in the early stages of the intifada, operating primarily in the Gaza District but also in Judea and Samaria. Formed in late 1987 as an outgrowth of the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Various HAMAS elements have used both political and violent means, including terrorism, to pursue the goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel. Loosely structured, with some elements working clandestinely and others working openly through mosques and social service institutions to recruit members, raise money, organize activities, and distribute propaganda. In a January 2006 election, Hamas won a majority of seats in the Palestinian legislature.
Hamas ( I think the stress is on the first syllable, not the last as in the Spanish word jam?s) is, as it says above, an acronym as well as a word for 'zeal'.
If we assume that Hamas is a noun, then 'Hamas ser? vencido' would mean Hamas will be conquered.
But that would sound pretty ambiguous to any Spanish-speaker.
I think the Israelis originally and surrepticiously cultivated Hamas as an alternative to the PLO a long time ago. Talk about 'blowback'.
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"So according to you, the union destroyed the confederacy, the Allies destroyed the Germans (twice)
and the Vietnamese destroyed the United States"
Uh correct.....the above destroyed the enemy by making the price too high to continue
The only asterisk would be the US/Viet Nam conflict.
Because the US had the power to destroy the enemy, but lacked the will
And of course we saw what happned
My contention is Israel and the US have the power to destroy the enemy
I only hope they have the will
I have little doubt our enemies would destroy Israel and the US if they could
They clearly say that is their goal
So our enemies can use their power, but we can't?
Yeah right
I say destroy them
They'll understand that
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What do you mean, destroy them? Kill them? Kill how many of them? Keeping in mind there are about 1,100,000 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. Kill 10% or 110,000? Kill 220,000?
You say there is a difference between "defeating" them and "destroying" them, maybe you could elaborate with some concrete examples that all of us can understand without ambiguity.
Exactly what are you advocating? In plain language, please.
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If we are going to discuss Gaza, it might be useful to know something about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip
The figures for population in Gaza are over 2,000,000.
I suppose we will never know the exact figure, because a census would benefit no one, and would b expensive.
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What do you mean, destroy them? Kill them? Kill how many of them? Keeping in mind there are about 1,100,000 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. Kill 10% or 110,000? Kill 220,000?
You say there is a difference between "defeating" them and "destroying" them, maybe you could elaborate with some concrete examples that all of us can understand without ambiguity.
Exactly what are you advocating? In plain language, please.
In the year following the Civil War Mississippi state's largest budgeted item was artificial limbs .
It took no less , not a dot less would have been enough, should I be proud or ashamed of the Confederacys obstancy /determination?
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<<In the year following the Civil War Mississippi state's largest budgeted item was artificial limbs .>>
Too bad it wasn't coffins.
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n the year following the Civil War Mississippi state's largest budgeted item was artificial limbs .
It took no less , not a dot less would have been enough, should I be proud or ashamed of the Confederacys obstancy /determination?
===============================================================================
i fail to see why you should be either proud or ashamed. All those people died before you were born.
It's obstanacy if you lose, determination if you win. Mississippi clearly did not win.
I don;t understand what you mean by the "no less not a dot less would have been enough." bit.
It was foolish for the South to have fired on Ft Sumter and started the Civil War. The South should have known that it could never win, but it might have managed to coexist peacefully with the North.
It was foolish for the South to have seceded. it was unwise to have elected Lincoln. The Civil War was the worst disaster in US history.
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Good post, MT. Yes, the prophets, both Major af Minor, did exactly this per God's direction. God used thme to point out the wrongness of the Jews time and time again. Actually, they were Chosen to do what you indicated and Chosen by God to be His special people, to follow His teachings and to populate the Earth per His direction.
I do not have any fear, MT. How could I, MT, when I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that God will protect Israel?
Interesting.
Not all of the prophets, major or minor, were Jews.
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You quibble about words. Language is universal. No one owns a word. Holocaust is no more sacred than trail of tears.
The jist of the statement is innocent civilians will die if Palestinians continue to lob rockets over the border. Because Israel certainly will respond. And rockets don't discriminate.
Bt, in honesty, you know that "shoah" is not just a word. Not to the Jewish people, and certainly not when spoken by an Israeli Minister.
What is disturbing to me, is that with the exception of Plane, the people on the right-wing here lockstep supported the Israeli Minister's statement. Some even support the idea of extermination of the Palestinians (see Rich's and CU4's words).
They mask this in many ways: as Christian will (it isn't - it obviously defies Christ's teaching); as good for the Jewish people (committing mass murder of innocents is never good for anyone, ask the Germans); as state security (the same bullshit that the South African Nationalists used to defend their apartheid policies and massacre innocents).
We're talking about a government that has used .50 cal sniper rifles to target Palestinian children. It is not defensible, it is not justifiable, no matter how many excuses are made.
God doesn't defend blowing up a child's head like a watermelon, whether CU4, Professor, or Rich relish in the idea or not. That does nothing to further peace, nor bring about a lasting solution. Israel can attempt the Shoah of the Palestinians, but they will go down in history as the modern day Nazis and their supporters as the fascist sympathizers for which they are.
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"Some even support the idea of extermination of the Palestinians (see Rich's and CU4's words)".
JS would you quit lying to try to demonize people that disagree with your warped sense of reality?
The Southern people were not exterminated by the Union, they were destroyed.
The American Indians were not exterminated by the US government they were destroyed.
The Canadian Indians were not exterminated by the Canadian government they were destroyed.
Nations all over the earth sit on land once occupied by someone else. In most cases
the former "owner" was not exterminated they were defeated/destroyed in warfare.
Israel has the firepower to destroy this enemy and it should do so.
Lincoln would have lost had he "held back".
The enemy uses it's power why should Israel not use it's power?
Plus it would be up to the Palestinians.
They would be warned for the 10,000 time.
"Do this" and "if this continues", we will destroy you.
It's up to you.
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Actually, they were Chosen to do what you indicated and Chosen by God to be His special people, to follow His teachings and to populate the Earth per His direction.
==========================================
There is an interesting thought. God told the Jews to be fruitful and multiply. Hmmm.
If he didn't tell all the Gentiles, they seem to have gotten the message as well. We supposedly started off after the alleged Great Flood in a situation where everyone was Jewish. But at the present time, only about 15 million people on the planet, out of 7 billion, that is seven thousand million are Jewish. Allow me to ask the three letter question: WTF?
I realize that God originally told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. A lot of good that did, He got pissed and drowned the whole lot of them, except for Noah and his crew.
I suppose that Noah was Jewish. I am pretty sure he was not a Presbyterian or a three-seed-in-the soul Primitive Baptist, 'cause they weren't invented yet.
I guess Noah and his company were not that good at being Jewish.
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Plus it would be up to the Palestinians.
They would be warned for the 10,000 time.
"Do this" and "if this continues", we will destroy you.
It's up to you.
============================================================
It's kind of an empty discussion, CU4. The fact of the matter is that the Israelis do have the military means to exterminate the Palestinians. Probably could kill most of them, maybe as many as 90%. They aren't doing it because they can't get away with it.
If you don't understand how this works, look back at the Israeli invasion and bombardment of Lebanon. If you recall, they "accidentally" hit a school and killed dozens of Lebanese school-children. Or according to their story, they hit a house full of "terrorists," which then brought down the building where the kids were.
At that point, in the midst of their campaign, the Israelis had to call a 24-hour moratorium on bombing. Why? Do you think anyone really gives a shit about a few dozen Palestinian kids? They've killed literally thousands of kids and it means absolutely nothing. The fact of the matter is that there is a boiling point, a level beyond which one shouldn't try the outrage tolerance levels of the people, any people. What the Jews and their Amerikkkan fascist backers were afraid of was the boiling over of the rage of the Arab people. They have undoubtedly put up with a lot of shit but a massacre of the innocents at a certain level can bring down governments. HAS brought down governments.
IMHO, there is not a single Zionazi/Amerikkkan puppet government n the Middle East that could survive a shitstorm of popular rage such as would be provoked by a massacre on the scale being advocated by Israel's "friends." Friends don't counsel friends to commit murder, but leave that aside for the moment. The simple facts are that Israel has the means in hand, doesn't give a shit about innocent Arab life and has nevertheless refrained from the Nazi-type solutions being advocated here. IMHO, that has nothing to do with the goodness of their hearts or their moral scruples. They're smart enough to consider the adverse consequences.
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Bt, in honesty, you know that "shoah" is not just a word. Not to the Jewish people, and certainly not when spoken by an Israeli Minister.
Well, i am thoroughly shocked that an Israeli minister would misuse such a sacred word.
I am beginning to become convinced that if people were more careful with their words, then we wouldn't have near the carnage we are seeing currently.
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==========================================================================
A Jew who has learned absolutely nothing from the Holocaust.
This wouldn't be you?
The Palestinians ought to offer another alternative , Israel isn't going to risk another holocaust for itself even if a holocaust for another to prevent it is very sad.
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Bt, in honesty, you know that "shoah" is not just a word. Not to the Jewish people, and certainly not when spoken by an Israeli Minister.
Well, i am thoroughly shocked that an Israeli minister would misuse such a sacred word.
I am beginning to become convinced that if people were more careful with their words, then we wouldn't have near the carnage we are seeing currently.
The point is not that his words will lead to violence Bt. The point is that the goal is already there in the Israeli Government to have a Holocaust. This was argued before and some in here did not believe me and others. Right here is the proof.
It is an apartheid state and it is going to do whatever it takes to enforce its policies.
You say it has a right to defend itself. I wonder, did the nationalists in South Africa have that same right against the blacks? Did you stand up and say "the whites have to defend themselves!" After the Soweto massacre?
And if words are truly meaningless, then you'll be the first to go to Dachau and tell everyone there that the "Holocaust" is just a word and meaningless. Right?
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>>I am beginning to become convinced that if people were more careful with their words, then we wouldn't have near the carnage we are seeing currently.<<
<chuckle>
Perhaps we need to ship a few million of our more liberal friends over to Israel so they can school them in political correctness. I'm sure our liberals would out-liberal their liberals and Israel would roll over and surrender inside of 5 years.
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<<This [a Jew who learned absolutely nothing from the Holocaust] wouldn't be you?>>
I learned a lot from the Holocaust. That when the shit hits the fan, nobody on this fucking planet gives a shit whether the Jews live or die. That rabid anti-communism always depends on nationalism which almost automatically translates into anti-Semitism. That Christianity, not Islam, is the biggest threat to Jewish existence. That the Jews had better fight against fascism, racism and militarism 24/7 because they are the biggest victims of all three. That the enemy of my enemy is my friend - - i.e., it was the Red Army more than any other military force which is responsible for the death of Nazi Germany and the final crushing defeat of fascism in our time.
<<The Palestinians ought to offer another alternative , Israel isn't going to risk another holocaust for itself even if a holocaust for another to prevent it is very sad.>>
That's hysterical and insane thinking. There is no Palestinian or Arab leader anywhere advocating a holocaust; the fabrication of "enemy" intentions, as per Hitler's example of the great Jewish conspiracy to take over the world and corrupt the Aryan race, is a classic fascist method of preparing for and justifying one's own policies of aggression. Blame the other guy first for intending all the things you are planning to do to him, so that when you finally nail his ass to the wall, you can claim self-defence.
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It looks to me that no one actually cares about Poles, Gypsies, Hutus or Watutsis or Darforians, either, not just Jews. Hutus and Watisis were mostly fellow Christians, too.
The Palestinians don't want the Jews to die, they just want them to leave.
Regardless of what the Book of Revelation says, I don't see there being another Holocaust, either.
Revelation claims that all the Jews will either convert or be sent to Hell. In fact, the world cannot end until the conversion of the last Jew.
I don't see that as likely. No cause ever gets 100% of anyone or anything. More desert people exaggerations.
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<<looks to me that no one actually cares about Poles, Gypsies, Hutus or Watutsis or Darforians, either, not just Jews. Hutus and Watisis were mostly fellow Christians, too.>>
Great Britain and France cared enough about Poland to start WWII when Germany defied their ultimatum to get the fuck out of there in 48 hours. The rest of your statement is pretty accurate - - basically whites don't give a shit about blacks and wouldn't lift a finger to save a million of them, and Gypsies (Roma) are pretty much in the same boat as non-whites. I think they are descended from some place on the Indian sub-continent.
Darfur has become a great Zionist cause though - - it's a handy distraction whenever Israel is accused of inhumanity to the Muslims, they immediately raise the issue of Darfur and claim they are being singled out as human rights abusers because they're Jews, while the fucking Muslims are getting away with murder. Cute.
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The point is Palestinians are lobbing rockets into Israel and killing people with them. Do you expect the Israeli's to turn the other cheek?
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"Do you expect the Israeli's to turn the other cheek?"
Of course they do.
They want the other side to win.
They agree with Ahmadinejad.
They want to pretend Israel is the bad guy at the exact same
time they sit on lands "stolen" from someone else.
XO condemns Israel while he lives the good life as an American citizen
sitting his fat ass on lands "stolen" from the American Indians. Yeah
he really has the moral authority to preach about "stolen land" to Israel. ::)
Yes they are up on the high moral horse and that horse is standing on "stolen land"
It hypocrisy beyond belief.
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"basically whites don't give a shit about blacks and wouldn't lift a finger to save a million of them"
Over 300,000 Union soldiers died in the US Civil War to free the black slaves.
And those terrible old whites are about to elect an African American President of the United States.
Oh by the way, when baseball player Barry Bonds was attacked "it was because he was Black".
Is baseball player Roger Clemens being attacked cause he be white?
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<<The point is Palestinians are lobbing rockets into Israel and killing people with them. Do you expect the Israeli's to turn the other cheek?>>
No, and I don't expect them to unleash a Holocaust either.
They're starting off on the wrong foot by being occupiers and oppressors of millions of Arabs and when they retaliate against people fighting for their own liberation, they had damn well better take some care to hit back at Resistance fighters and not helpless civilians.
I thank God that the Israelis seem to be mostly a hell of a lot smarter than some of their so-called "friends," who have no qualms at all about urging them to unleash a "holocaust" on their Arab neighbours. You can bet your ass that if the Jews were stupid enough to follow that advice, that their "good friends" would be nowhere around to cover them when payback finally arrived.
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XO condemns Israel while he lives the good life as an American citizen
sitting his fat ass on lands "stolen" from the American Indians. Yeah
he really has the moral authority to preach about "stolen land" to Israel
============================================================
The basic difference of course is that the Indians have come to accept the theft of their land by a numerically and technologically overwhelming white population. This means that the Indians have given up the fight and it also means that the whites have no more reason to oppress the Indians. They don't have to set up a series of checkpoints on the Indians' own lands to restrict their movements, they don't have to erect apartheid walls against the Indians and they don't have to periodically invade the Indians' land, bulldoze their homes, murder their children, destroy their crops, etc. The Indians and the whites have agreed to live and let live, and the whites get to keep the land they have stolen. It ain't right, but might made right and the whites sure as hell had the might.
Now in Israel, the Jews just can't get away with the same shit as the Americans did. They don't have the numbers. The Arabs know this and thus, unlike the American Indians, they did not have to give up the fight and they didn't. Because the fight goes on, the Jews have to: wall off the Palestinians; set up innumerable check-points to severely restrict normal daily movement; invade Gaza or even the West Bank from time to time; carry out "targeted assassinations" (a.k.a. extra-judicial murders) of Palestinians; murder their children, bulldoze their homes, destroy their crops, etc.
In Israel, multiple atrocities have to be committed on a daily basis to maintain the occupiers' position; unlike America, where the parties have reached an accommodation.
So the comparison between the Palestinians and the American Indians is really bullshit.
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They're starting off on the wrong foot by being occupiers and oppressors of millions of Arabs and when they retaliate against people fighting for their own liberation, they had damn well better take some care to hit back at Resistance fighters and not helpless civilians.
Are the heroes of the revolutionary resistance taking the same precautions?
If not, fuck them.
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<<Over 300,000 Union soldiers died in the US Civil War to free the black slaves.>>
Bullshit. Even this poor dumb Canuck knows better. They fought to preserve the Union. Lincoln said as much: if he could preserve the Union at the price of continuing to tolerate slavery, he would continue to tolerate slavery. Besides: live in the real world, please, not in the 1860s. That was then, this is now.
<<And those terrible old whites are about to elect an African American President of the United States.>>
Maybe so. Doesn't change what I said by one iota - - they don't give a shit about the fate of the blacks and wouldn't lift a finger to save all the blacks in Africa. Or New Orleans.
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XO condemns Israel while he lives the good life as an American citizen
sitting his fat ass on lands "stolen" from the American Indians. Yeah
he really has the moral authority to preach about "stolen land" to Israel.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you actually read what I said, it was that the Israelis are not going to exterminate (your original word, before you decided 'destroy' would be sufficient) the Palestinians in Gaza.Like MT, I agree that they certainly could kill a whole lot of Gazans, but that this would be political suicide. Lebanon was bad enough.
Hamas is nuts to lob rockets at the Israelis, since this will never accomplish their purpose. Israel's latest incursions into Gaza is about all they can do in response to the rockets, but as I said, this will never resolve the problem, and they will be lobbing rockets at them again in several months.
As for me, I am part Choctaw, and strangely am free from personality conflicts. Ft. Washita was closed down in 1859. I still have the books from the sutler's store on the Res, by the way. The original Indians here in Miami were the Tequestas, and the Spanish carted them off to Cuba centuries ago. The Seminoles and the Mikosukees are fairly recent arrivals, and with their new casinos (which I never frequent) they are not hurting. It was precisely in 1945, after Hitler tried to colonize Europe, that colonial ventures became taboo, and the UN was founded to implement this. The US Indian wars happened long, long ago. None of the participants, or even their children are alive anymore.
I think that the Israelis could make a deal with the Palestinians if they wanted to, but it would involve compromises they refuse to make. I am concerned only because my taxes go to support Israel, and the Israeli conflict is not good for my country. I could not change any government's (be it Israeli, Palestinians, US or whatever) position on the conflict even if I thought that this would be a good thing.
I see Israel as very likely to become outnumbered by prolifically breeding Arabs before they have become accepted in this area, and this is not good for anyone concerned because it will involve another nasty war for the US to finance and possibly fight. Wars are bad.
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<<Are the heroes of the revolutionary resistance taking the same precautions?
<<If not, fuck them>>
Absurd equation. The Arabs are already the occupied and the oppressed. Their civilians already live under the gun, subject to checkpoints, apartheid walls, random home invasions, bulldozing of homes and orchards, random killings, targeted assassinations, etc. They have the right and the duty to strike back at their oppressors wherever they can find them. The Jews have no such right. All they can claim is that they are protecting the property they have stolen and the people who have illegally settled upon it, Fuck them.
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http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804
The Gaza Bombshell
After failing to anticipate Hamas?s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs.
[...............]
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Maybe so. Doesn't change what I said by one iota - - they don't give a shit about the fate of the blacks and wouldn't lift a finger to save all the blacks in Africa. Or New Orleans
they (Blacks) don't give a shit about the fate of the whites..
whites care no more / no less than blacks care about whites fate
sorry i don't accept your "whitey is the bad guy"...."US is the bad guy" crap
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The basic difference of course is that the Indians have come to accept the theft of their land by a numerically and technologically overwhelming white population
So you concede that there is no real difference except that the Indians have lost and the Palestinians just have not lost yet.
Numbers don't mean shit.
The Chinese have had numbers for centuries and they were a 3rd rate power.
Many rulers in history didn't command the numbers......They weren't voted in
But they had the power.
Isreal has the power and should use it.
Warn the enemy
Warn the enemy again
If the enemy doesn't listen, increase the pain level until they do listen
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Absurd equation.
Right! all is fair if it is for the advancement of the revolution.
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<<sorry i don't accept your "whitey is the bad guy".>>
Well, maybe I got it all wrong. Was it the blacks who enslaved whitey and brought them to the U.S.? Were all those lynchings done by black guys stringing up white guys? Who was being denied the vote i the south - - was it the whites keeping the blacks from voting or was it the other way round? I dunno, maybe you're right. I just never realized how bad the whites had it over here, how much persecution they suffered. Why the hell did I think it was the WHITE guys who were so bad?
<<..."US is the bad guy" crap>>
Shit. I guess I got THAT one wrong too. So the U.S. didn't invade Viet Nam or Iraq or Panama It was the Vietnamese and then later the Panamanians and the Iraqis who invaded the U.S.A. Boy I'm sure glad I started posting in Three Dead Horses. The amount of amazing historical fact you can learn in here is actually mind-boggling.
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<<So you concede that there is no real difference except that the Indians have lost and the Palestinians just have not lost yet.>>
Well, there's also the time factor. The Indians were defeated a long time ago and they reconciled themselves to their fate. Sure there are plenty of ancient injustices. THe Iroquois massacred the Hurons. The Israelites massacred the Midianites. I mean somewhere a line's gotta be drawn. But you can't draw the line when the guns are still firing.
<<Numbers don't mean shit.
<<The Chinese have had numbers for centuries and they were a 3rd rate power.>>
But in due course, the weight of their numbers proved decisive. In my kids' lifetimes, the Chinese will become the predominant power on this planet. Same thing with the Arabs. In the long run, the Jews are fucked.
<<Isreal has the power and should use it.
<<Warn the enemy
<<Warn the enemy again
<<If the enemy doesn't listen, increase the pain level until they do listen>>
Good thing they're a lot smarter than you. The Amerikkkan puppets in the area are already skating on very thin ice. The Jews don't want to send millions of angry screaming Arabs into the street anywhere, because the guardians of law and order are just human too. If the cops and police fail to fire on the rioters and the rioters are allowed to tear open the gates of the palace, Amerikkka's puppet rulers in the area could all wind up torn limb from limb and dragged through the streets by their ankles with their eyes gouged out. It's happened before. It'll happen again. There's a lot of anger out there and the Israelis know enough not to fan it into a flame.
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maybe I got it all wrong. Was it the blacks who enslaved whitey and brought them to the U.S.?
Americans didn't invent or start slavery and it still goes on today. But I know, I know, you just want to sensationalize American slavery instead of putting it in historical perspective as something that has basically always existed. It is a black mark on mankind just not the United States. The one difference is that American slaves once the slavery ended are far better off educationally and economically than the average Black in Africa that was not enslaved. I doubt throughout history if many former enslaved people have lived near the standard of living as today's African Americans. If it's soooooo bad in the United States why don't the "African" Americans return to the "sacred homeland" where they would be the majority? Yeah, LOL, like thats gonna happen! They wouldn't consider it because it freakin sucks there! It's a shithole. Go to any school in America and ask the young African Americans if they wanna return to their so called "homeland"? Say wha? Hell it's sooooooo bad here in the US black folks from Kenya, Somalia, ect.....are flooding our shores to sneak in here. Yeah theys wanna immigrates to bees nears all doze mean ole whiteys! Reality sucks doesn't it Micheal?
Were all those lynchings done by black guys stringing up white guys?
Blacks sold Blacks into slavery.
Who was being denied the vote i the south - - was it the whites keeping the blacks from voting or was it the other way round? I dunno, maybe you're right.
Hundreds of millions of people in the world today are denied a vote! But you freakin ignore that to demonize the United States who allows everyone to vote and is about to elect an African American President of the United States. Again US=BAD. Everyone elese denied voting even in today's world =Good
Shit. I guess I got THAT one wrong too. So the U.S. didn't invade Viet Nam or Iraq or Panama
Oh like the US is the first nation in history to invade anybody!
Ha!
US= BAD -->Everybody else that has invaded others!
Great logic.
Boy I'm sure glad I started posting in Three Dead Horses. The amount of amazing historical fact you can learn in here is actually mind-boggling.
Actually the amount of historical facts you deny dwarfs any that I may miss, because you in your blind hatred of the United States you dismiss most other wrongs throughout history committed by non-Americans so you can focus and sensationalize any possible wrongs that Americans have committed.
You want to demonize Americans for what countless others have done throughout history.
Here in this thread again you demonize Isreal for "stealing land" while you sit on stolen land yourself!
Then you lamely try to rationalize it by basically saying "well that was a long time ago" or "well the people we shit on have accepted their fate". Somehow in your warped mind that makes it ok!
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The Chinese have had numbers for centuries and they were a 3rd rate power.>>
But in due course, the weight of their numbers proved decisive. In my kids' lifetimes, the Chinese will become the predominant power on this planet.
You are changing the subject.
You often do that when you are busted.
You said "numbers matter".
Well for centuries in China they have not.
They had huge numbers and were a failure.
Most of the world's population (huge numbers) do not have a high standard of living.
So numbers don't necessarily matter.
You say "if" or in the future they will, thats not factual thats an asssumption.
It is a fact in history that numbers have not mattered.
Again mine is a fact, your's is a hope.
As far as your kids lifetime, China will become more powerful only if they continue to allow more freedom.
Freedom of movement, freedom of economic activity.
No the Arabs are "fucked" unless they embrace freedom.
If freedom is not allowed Chinese nor Arabs will not dominate anything.
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Boy I'm sure glad I started posting in Three Dead Horses. The amount of amazing historical fact you can learn in here is actually mind-boggling.
Actually the amount of historical facts you deny dwarfs any that I may miss, because you in your blind hatred of the United States you dismiss most other wrongs throughout history committed by non-Americans so you can focus and sensationalize any possible wrongs that Americans have committed. You want to demonize Americans for what countless others have done throughout history.
Simple explaination CU4. Must fit template.....must fit template
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<<Here in this thread again you demonize Isreal for "stealing land" while you sit on stolen land yourself!
Then you lamely try to rationalize it by basically saying "well that was a long time ago" or "well the people we shit on have accepted their fate". Somehow in your warped mind that makes it ok!>>
Seems pretty simple to me. They're stealing it even as the owners they're stealing it from are fighting like hell to get it back, lobbing grenades through the windows and shooting at the invaders. How the hell any supposedly sane individual can compare that mess with the settlement of North America and the relative peace and calm that prevails here is beyond me. The parties to the European settlement of North America have more or less come to a peaceful resolution of the problem, in part due to the huge numerical superiority of the Europeans now here. The Jews don't have those numbers, the North American whites do. The Indian Wars are OVER. Get it? Been over for a long, long time. Can you understand the concept of a settlement? That conflict has been SETTLED. To the mutual agreement of the parties.
Your "Whitey good, Amerikka good" rant was kind of amusing if nothing else. It seems to boil down to, "Slavery? Lynching? Invading other countries? BFD, everyone does it." Plus the old tried and true sirs rejoinder, "If Amerikkka's so bad, why are they all trying to come here?"
The answer to the first part of your post is, those are miserable excuses, pathetic by any standards. Besides which you really have to scrape the barrel to find a country who does ALL of those bad things and as often as the U.S. does them. I don't think there IS another country whose track record is consistently that bad over that long a period of time. As for the sirs standard, "How come they want to get in here?" the answer is really simple: POVERTY. They live in shit-holes. Exploited by American capital and prevented by force (as in Latin America) by the CIA and powerful U.S. financial interests from ever improving their situation.
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Actually, it's not my SOP;"How come they want to get in here?" response. In fact, I can't recall the last time I ever referenced such, but at least it keeps reinforcing how often Tee is wrong. Thanks, Tee
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<<Actually, it's not my SOP;"How come they want to get in here?" response. In fact, I can't recall the last time I ever referenced such, but at least it keeps reinforcing how often Tee is wrong. Thanks, Tee>>
You're too modest, sirs. Or maybe you have some other reason for denying paternity. But in any event, I always think of you when I hear that argument. That's because you always raised it in our discussions of Cuba. Are thousands of Americans risking their lives to raft over to Cuba or are thousands of Cubans risking their lives to raft over to Amerikkka? Remember now?
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<<Actually, it's not my SOP;"How come they want to get in here?" response. In fact, I can't recall the last time I ever referenced such, but at least it keeps reinforcing how often Tee is wrong. Thanks, Tee>>
You're too modest, sirs. Or maybe you have some other reason for denying paternity. But in any event, I always think of you when I hear that argument.
Ahh, I feel so warm & fuzzy now, with your repetative inaccuracies. Thanks ;D
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The point is Palestinians are lobbing rockets into Israel and killing people with them. Do you expect the Israeli's to turn the other cheek?
The point is that Israel is an apartheid state, with blatantly racist policies, yet you defend the Israeli Government and wish them well on cracking down on the Palestinians. Even to the point that a Minister discusses a holocaust against the Palestinians.
Why?
You all defend a state that acts as South Africa did, and it beggars belief as to why. What did the Palestinians do to you that you wish so much hatred and destruction on their lives?
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You all defend a state that acts as South Africa did, and it beggars belief as to why. What did the Palestinians do to you that you wish so much hatred and destruction on their lives?
::)
Speaking for myself;
A) It's NOT identical to South Africa
B) It's NOT hatred towards Palestinians
C) It's NOT wanton destruction to any and all Palestinian men, women, & children
What it IS, is the cycle of violence will only stop WHEN the militant extremists, that occupy Palestinian areas, Gaza, and the West Bank openly and clearly accept Israel's right to exist, RIGHT WHERE IT IS, or only WHEN, the Palestinian people make a concerted effort to rid their region of those elements, if they don't.
THEN, and only then, will Isreal stop RETALIATING (meaning responding to initial attacks upon them), and we, as a Global body, can perhaps help straighten out some, if not most, of Israel's policies regarding Palestinians.
THAT's what has to happen, since Israel taking some initiative to better Palestinan life, will NOT cause any cessation of those Islamic militants that want to wipe Isreal completely out of the region
And Right of Return is a non-starter, so no need to even touch that tangent
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>>The point is that Israel is an apartheid state, with blatantly racist policies,... <<
More socialist lies.
Arabs serve in all aspects of Israeli society, and I've proven it here time and time again. The lies terrorists and their supporters tell about Israel are just to ingrained for them to stop repeating. They simply can't help themselves.
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Arabs serve in all aspects of Israeli society, and I've proven it here time and time again. The lies terrorists and their supporters tell about Israel are just to ingrained for them to stop repeating. They simply can't help themselves.
===============================================================
You have never actually been to Israel and you don't know sh*t. Richie.
We all know you don't know sh*t. You can stop now, no further proof is necessary.
You are what is commonly known as a "patsy".
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BO, you must pay better attention you little worm. I posted the stats, they don't lie.
Unlike you, shit for brains.
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>>The point is that Israel is an apartheid state, with blatantly racist policies,... <<
<<More socialist lies.
<<Arabs serve in all aspects of Israeli society, and I've proven it here time and time again. >>
HILARIOUS. ROTFLMFAO. Here's a little reading list for those who want a little insight into Israeli racism. Incidentally, the very idea of the Right of Return is racist - - any Jew can come from any corner of the earth but the Arab who was born there and was forced out at gunpoint can never return.
Racism Inside Israel
Phyllis Bennis is interviewed by Max Elbaum
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BEN108A.html
Charley Reese ? ?It is Absurd to Say Israel is Not a Racist State?
http://www.rense.com/general14/itisabsurd.htm
Wikipedia on Anti-Arabism in Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Arabism#Israel
?Marriage to an Arab is National Treason?
Y-Net News
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3381978,00.html
?Forgive Us Our Racism? ? Ha?aretz Israel News
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/860025.html
?Civil Rights Group: Israel Has Reached New Heights of Racism?
Ha?aretz
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/932384.html
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You all defend a state that acts as South Africa did, and it beggars belief as to why. What did the Palestinians do to you that you wish so much hatred and destruction on their lives?
::)
Speaking for myself;
A) It's NOT identical to South Africa
Yet, Jews who fought for Israel and lived in South Africa have noted the similarities. Archbishop Desmond Tutu noted the similarities. These are people who KNOW apartheid. They have seen both countries, some have lived in both nations. Yet, Sirs claims it cannot be so because it doesn't fit his worldview. They have separate roads Sirs. They demolish neighborhoods and take private property from Palestinians. The Israli Government forcibly moves Palestinians to Gaza and the West Bank just as the South African Government forcibly moved blacks to the Bantustans. I have shown you all of this - what will it take for you to open your eyes? What more do you honestly need?
B) It's NOT hatred towards Palestinians
Really? What other nation would you sit by and allow this to happen in? YOU, Sirs, would never stand by and say nothing if Arabs were doing this to white Europeans. Be honest. If Black Africans were doing this to whites? Do you support Robert Mugabe's land reform projects in Zimbabwe? I thought not. It is acceptable here because it is the predominantly white Jewish Government destroying the Palestinians. If it were Black Africans doing the same to white European farmers - Sirs would disapprove I think (and not just you but the vast majority of Americans).
C) It's NOT wanton destruction to any and all Palestinian men, women, & children
The Israeli Government targets Palestinian children with .50 cal sniper rifles. No, it isn't wanton - you bet your ass it is willful destruction and deprivation. I gave that proof to Plane and you can search for it as well. The seizing of Palestinian land, the humiliation, the racially divided roads, the lack of jobs, the removal of Palestinians from quality schools and hospitals - this is POLICY. That is apartheid. They carry passes, just like the black South Africans did. It is purposeful humiliation, purposeful deprivation.
What you and others want is for Palestinians (which include Christians!) to roll over and take it. You want them to know their place, just like the Nationalists in South Africa wanted blacks to know their place.
My question is - why? They have no future. Why should they be satisfied with a life with no future? Why should they be satisfied with a life of telling their children to just roll over and accept that the Israeli Government dictates that their lives will be lived in squalor and shit? That they are third tier citizens, barely worth the .50 cal round it will take to put them down?
It really baffles my mind. This is the current generations South Africa and they are dealing with it worse than the previous generation dealt with that evil regime.
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BO, you must pay better attention you little worm. I posted the stats, they don't lie.
Unlike you, shit for brains.
You and others like you are doing your best to fight alongside racists everywhere in the Armchair Race War.
Other than that, you deserve no recognition.
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What you and others want is for Palestinians to roll over and take it. You want them to know their place, just like the Nationalists in South Africa wanted blacks to know their place. My question is - why?
Pretty impossible to have this discussion with you, when you adopt such an asanine premise. You apparently have no fricken clue what I want. Israelis have no desire to see Palestinians "know their own place". they're desire is to survive, to literally live in peace. hard to do with so many enemies raining indiscriminate rockets on them, and then hiding amonst the populace. But, what do you care....Israelis have it coming to them, as evil & diabolical as they are. >:(
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What you and others want is for Palestinians to roll over and take it. You want them to know their place, just like the Nationalists in South Africa wanted blacks to know their place. My question is - why?
Pretty impossible to have this discussion with you, when you adopt such an asanine premise. You apparently have no fricken clue what I want. Israelis have no desire to see Palestinians "know their own place". they're desire is to survive, to literally live in peace. hard to do with so many enemies raining indiscriminate rockets on them, and then hiding amonst the populace. But, what do you care....Israelis have it coming to them, as evil & diabolical as they are. >:(
See, that's where you are wrong. I don't see Israelis as evil at all. Nor where most South African whites.
The problem is the Israeli Government and certain Israelis as it was with the South African Nationalists.
The truth is Sirs, you have no idea what Israelis want. I've shown you example after example of Israeli policies that are blatantly racist and very much akin to apartheid. Yet, you just close your eyes. And as I said, you'd never let this stand if it were Black Africans forcing whites into deprivation, confiscating their land, shooting their children. Admit it. What if it were Black African Muslims and white Christians?!? You'd be one of the first in here talking about what a disgrace it was and we need to mobilize our troops right this minute.
But it isn't. It is Palestinian Muslims, Christians, and non-religious who are being forced off of their property, watching their homes being bulldozed, watching their children murdered by an Israeli gunman, wondering if it will be their slum tenement that gets hit with the next round of Israeli artillery fire. They are forced to drive on racially divided roads. They are forced to be humiliated by Israeli soldiers at chekpoints - everytime they want to go and do mundane activities like see a doctor or go to a market.
But Lord have mercy - don't call it apartheid. Call it - "security." And I'm sure it has nothing to do with race...
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See, that's where you are wrong. I don't see Israelis as evil at all.
Nor do I see Palestinians needing to "stay in their place". Didn't stop you from making such an egregious conclusion regarding myself. So, how does it feel?
The truth is Sirs, you have no idea what Israelis want.
I can bet that it's largely to do with being left alone, and being able to live in peace, without fear of unguided rockets raining down on their heads. It's just a guess, but it has a pretty strong foundation.
And as I said, you'd never let this stand if it were Black Africans forcing whites into deprivation, confiscating their land, shooting their children. Admit it. What if it were Black African Muslims and white Christians?!? You'd be one of the first in here talking about what a disgrace it was and we need to mobilize our troops right this minute.
Let's put the timeline in place.....Israeli & Palestinian folks DID live in harmony, back in the late 40s. It wasn't until Israel was being attacked, from nearly all sides, that Israel required the need to DEFEND itself, and take lands to help in that defense. At no time did Israel act simply to take land in some supposed racist act of aggression. Isreal, has over time adopted polices that are hurtful to Palestinians, but were largely done in an effort to better secure their defenses, NOT as some rabid racist apartheid organization, that you keep trying to paint them as. And I'm all for advocating change there, WHEN Israel's enemies stop attacking it
If it were simply as you describe above, there'd be no excuse. But it isn't, and YOU KNOW THAT. You see, you want to trying placating the symptoms, when the disease I want to focus on is the effort by militant islam to rid the region of the state of Israel, 1 bomb busing at a time, if necessary. But hey, Israel is the bad guy, so lets just keep kicking them
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Seems pretty simple to me. They're stealing it even as the owners they're stealing it from are fighting like hell to get it back, lobbing grenades through the windows and shooting at the invaders.
Yes and the North American Indians did basically did the same thing.
They fought like hell against people trying to take their land.
The Indians had less power, and they lost the battle.
Now you sit on those lands "stolen" from them.
How the hell any supposedly sane individual can compare that mess with the settlement of North America and the relative peace and calm that prevails here is beyond me. The parties to the European settlement of North America have more or less come to a peaceful resolution of the problem, in part due to the huge numerical superiority of the Europeans now here.
Superior power won.
You seemingly think numerical superiority = moral rightousness?
Like if 1000 people run into Macy's and take it over, claim it is theirs, that is somehow
morally better than if just 100 people do it?
If land is "stolen" by a numerical superiority invader that makes it ok?
The Jews don't have those numbers, the North American whites do.
Again, it's ok to steal land if you have the numbers, but not ok if you don't?
I thought "stealing was stealing" regardless of the number of thieves involved?
Plus we already discussed that.
Numbers dont matter anyway.
Countless countries are ruled by dictators unpopular with the people.
They could not win a majority vote, yet they rule.
They don't have the numbers, but they remain in power because they have superior power.
The Indian Wars are OVER. Get it? Been over for a long, long time.
Who said it wasn't?
Of course it is over because one more powerful group "stole" the land from another group.
Like I said it has happened countless times throughout history.
Nothing unique about Israel doing it.
It happened on the lands where you now sit.
But you then condemn Israel for "stealing" land when you yourself sit on "stolen land".
It doesn't matter that the conflict in your case is currently "settled"
It doesn't change the fact you sit and benefit from "stolen land"
But then condemn others for "stealing land"
Can you understand the concept of a settlement?
Yes in most cases it is called destroying the enemy.
The land you sit on this minute came from "destroying an enemy".
Israel is in the process of destroying an enemy.
Is the outcome decided yet?
No, just like your "stolen" land was at one time undecided.
It is still the same issue.
A superior force destroying a less superior force and taking territory.
That conflict has been SETTLED. To the mutual agreement of the parties.
Yes it was settled because of destruction, and forced mutual agreement.
Thats what I want Israel to do.
Destroy the enemy and force a "mutual agreement" like was done with the land you sit on.
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Numbers are everything.
If you disregard the numbers, nothing will come out right.
If you wait and see for a decade or three, you will see that the problem was that the Israelis didn't have the numbers.
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>>Pretty impossible to have this discussion with you, when you adopt such an asanine premise.<<
Look, you're dealing with three people who want to finish what Hitler started. JS is simply lying. I've proven him to be a lying piece of trash in the past on this issue. It makes no difference to people like him. He's created his own reality so let him wallow in it.
BO is simply a moron who follows the pack and Mike is a manic depressive living in his twisted delusion.
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I've proven him to be a lying piece of trash in the past on this issue.
===============================================================
You have never proven anything to anyone except yourself, Richie.
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Yea, you keep right on believing that Xo. Whatever makes you feel better
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<<Of course it is over because one more powerful group "stole" the land from another group.
<<Like I said it has happened countless times throughout history.
<<Nothing unique about Israel doing it.>>
What's "unique" is that they don't have the numbers to pull it off AND their failures and barbarities are being televised to the whole world. Nothing unique about a lion taking on a hyena. But when an oversized house cat with leonine delusions takes on a hyena, now THAT'S unique.
<<It happened on the lands where you now sit.
<<But you then condemn Israel for "stealing" land when you yourself sit on "stolen land".
<<It doesn't matter that the conflict in your case is currently "settled">>
With all due respect, it makes all the difference in the world. Do you see any worldwide shitstorm of outrage directed at Canada for displacing its native peoples? People tend to get more worked up about current atrocities and outrages, not over something that occurred 150 years ago, well beyond the range of living human memory.
<<It doesn't change the fact you sit and benefit from "stolen land"
<<But then condemn others for "stealing land">>
I condemn them and I might have condemned the European settlers back then - - except (another big difference!) it seemed at the time that there was a helluva lotta land available, plenty for everyone.
<<Yes in most cases it [settlement of disputes] is called destroying the enemy.
<<The land you sit on this minute came from "destroying an enemy".>>
It came from defeating an enemy due to vastly superior numbers and firepower. Advantages which the Israelis do not have.
<<Israel is in the process of destroying an enemy.>>
Highly debatable. I'd say they don't dare destroy the enemy for fear of suffering far worse consequences than any that any enemy might inflict. Furthermore, they are probably only in the process of pissing off an enemy and pissing off most of the rest of the world at the same time.
<<Yes it was settled because of destruction, and forced mutual agreement.>>
No, it was settled because the Indians saw the futility of continuing the struggle. They were vastly outnumbered and they knew it.
<<Thats what I want Israel to do.>>
They would be signing their own death warrant if they did.
<<Destroy the enemy and force a "mutual agreement" like was done with the land you sit on.>>
They just can't do it, CU4. You gotta live in the real world. They couldn't hold South Lebanon. They were forced by economic constraints to abandon the occupation of Gaza. Sooner or later, the Amerikkkans will get tired of bankrolling them. These occupations are hugely expensive and the public gets sick and tired of seing sons and daughters getting killed in pointless occupations that everyone knows will have to end sooner or later.
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<<JS is simply lying. I've proven him to be a lying piece of trash in the past on this issue. It makes no difference to people like him. He's created his own reality so let him wallow in it.>>
You've never proven anyone as far as I remember to be a lying anything. As far as creating one's own reality, even in this thread you claimed that allegations of Israel being a racist, apartheid state were "socialist lies", which is such a ludicrous piece of bullshit that it boggles the imagination. I posted numerous links to articles which establish beyond dispute that Israel is EXACTLY a racist, apartheid state, none of them, as far as I know, emanating from socialist sources.
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yeah yeah all a bunch of talk
they own the land
they own the Palestinians
if Iran or anybody else wants to invade
well go ahead and try
If Iran invades Israel, Iran will be destroyed
They know it, you know it, I know it.
Thats why the morons that cant do anything themselves (Iran) are tying to get Russians/Koreans to build it for them
Hello? We are morons that cant figure out how to do it ourselves, maybe we can buy one
We can build IslamoNazis but complicated stuff, no bueno.
We've built so many things that have changed the world. uh like what?
Jezzzzz how pathetic
Tehran will be warned and if they choose to cross a line Iran will get nuked if necessary
And Michael who will do anything if Tehran is nuked?
Oh my the UN will condemn, big freaking deal.
Israel will not be liked, oh my, they are so well liked now
Tell me Michael, is Russia going to invade Israel if Tehran is nuked?
Laughable
Whats China gonna do? Invade Israel?
Laughable
The winner of this game is toughest, meanest son of a bitch
And Isreal will incinerate anyone that wants go the distance.
Dont think so?
Ok try it Iran.
Lets go tonight!
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yeah yeah all a bunch of talk
they own the land
they own the Palestinians
if Iran or anybody else wants to invade
well go ahead and try
If Iran invades Israel, Iran will be destroyed
They know it, you know it, I know it.
That's probably correct in the short term. But Iran isn't planning on invading Israel anytime soon. The longer this goes on, the more powerful Iran becomes. The more powerful Hezbollah becomes. They more powerful Syria and the Syrian-Iran axis becomes. The more powerful the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt becomes.
Time is not favouring the Israelis. The U.S. position in Iraq and Afghanistan is crumbling - - they've been trying to beat down two piss-ant little countries for longer than it took them to fight WWII. What is wrong with this picture?
Do you really think after the disaster in Iraq that the U.S. public will be anxious to jump again into another Middle East quagmire, no matter how many times they are promised that they'll be "greeted as liberators?" Not even the Amerikkkan sheeple are THAT fucking stupid.
<<Tehran will be warned and if they choose to cross a line Iran will get nuked if necessary>>
That will never happen, CU4. Never. Not on this planet, not in this universe. It's a fantasy which appeals to the pathologically violent, and to the hundreds of millions of frustrated, undervalued, powerless and angry individuals churned out by the capitalist system. It's even silly to talk about what could happen to Amerikkka if it nuked Iran, because there is just no chance in hell of it ever happening.
<<And Michael who will do anything if Tehran is nuked?>>
Good question. IMHO, the action will come from the ground up. This would be a spontaneous groundswell of anti-American rage - - overthrowing puppet governments, spontaneously boycotting Amerikkkan products. Demanding the closing of all U.S. bases. It would jump-start the formation of defensive alliances and bridge over many obstacles that would previously have stood in their way. In Europe and to a lesser extent Asia, the Amerikkkan government would become radioactive. Any inclination to help the U.S. - - for example, to participate in a joint effort to bail out the dollar if the dollar began losing ground rapidly in forex trading - - would be prohibited by the popular wrath that any government would incur by displaying friendliness or helpfulness to the U.S.A. I don't see political action by governments against the U.S. but I do see hands being tied by popular outrage. The U.S. would never do anything that crazy. They obviously see the consequences better than you do.
<<Tell me Michael, is Russia going to invade Israel if Tehran is nuked?
<<Laughable>>
Russia would draw the inevitable conclusions: (1) the U.S. is a dangerous threat to world peace; (2) Russia could be next. Russia would probably re-arm as desperately as it was attempting to arm itself in 1939 and 1940 and would probably move to secure its borders and the neighbouring countries. A huge arms race would inevitably begin once Russia reached a certain point in re-armament.
<<Whats China gonna do? Invade Israel?
<<Laughable>>
China would do what it's gonna do anyway. It is going to find a friend or a couple of friends in the Middle East. With or without India as a partner. Buy them or support a faction that will take them over. It needs bases first. It will establish its bases. It needs oil. It or its new proxy friends will get the oil by war or preferably by money and protection and weapons trades. All very gradually, one step at a time. A good place to start would be post-nuclear Iran. Those folks won't be too favourably inclined towards Amerikkka.
<<The winner of this game is toughest, meanest son of a bitch>>
And that would be who? The country which got pushed back from the Yalu River to the 49th Parallel by the People's Liberation Army? The country which got its ass whipped by an army of pyjama-clad VC guerrillas, which didn't even need an air force to drive them out? Or the country of 300 million people which even now after more time spent than its total involvement in WWII, STILL can't conquer Iraq, a country of only 23 million?
The American Army is NOT the toughest meanest son of a bitch. They just like to talk like one. Basically they're cowards who don't have the balls to face their enemies man-to-man but shoot from the protection of armoured vehicles or tanks, bomb defenceless positions with jet fighters and torture their prisoners. And the consequence of this of course is that it is costing them millions to kill just one guerrilla, whereas the guerrillas can kill Amerikkkan fascist invaders for just pennies. The guerrillas are easily replaced, whereas Amerikkka has been stretched to the limits of its offensive capabilities just by one small nation of 23 million. You really think your punk army can keep this up much longer?
That's your dilemma, CU - - your leaders will never drop The Bomb because they couldn't survive the consequences. And your "meanest toughest" army are in reality a bunch of chickenshits who won't give up the safety of their high-tech killing machines to face the enemy mano-a-mano, thereby guaranteeing that the cost of continuing the war will bleed you dry.
<<And Isreal will incinerate anyone that wants go the distance.
<<Dont think so?>>
No, I don't.
<<Ok try it Iran.
<<Lets go tonight!>>
ROTFLMFAO. As Humphrey Bogart said in The Maltese Falcon, "The cheaper the hood, the tougher the talk." I will say one thing for Amerikkkan fascists and war mongers - - they sure talk a tough fight. Your trash talk is the equivalent of Bush prancing around for the cameras on the flight deck of a carrier in his flight suit.
If they're as tough and mean as you like to think they are, why are they waiting for Iran to strike the first blow? Iran's already HAD all the warnings. Why don't they just nuke 'em right now, if they don't give a shit for world opinion?
Let's see it happen, Big Fella.
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That's probably correct in the short term. But Iran isn't planning on invading Israel anytime soon. The longer this goes on, the more powerful Iran becomes. The more powerful Hezbollah becomes. They more powerful Syria and the Syrian-Iran axis becomes. The more powerful the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt becomes.
No the longer it goes on the further back men that live in the 1400's fall farther behind.
The world is rapidly changing and they are being left behind.
The people they control would rather be working at DELL that in the Iranian KODS forces.
Everybody knows the Iranian youth don't like the Mullahs and enjoy Western lifestyles.
Time is not on the Mullahs side.
Time is not favouring the Israelis. The U.S. position in Iraq and Afghanistan is crumbling -
Oh yeah it is crumbling. LOL.
The democrats in Congress hardly even mention it anymore.
Remember the "put us in charge and we''ll get out of Iraq" -LOL - yeah sure Ms Pelosi
They control Congress and under them the surge of even more troops happened.
Do you really think after the disaster in Iraq that the U.S. public will be anxious to jump again into another Middle East quagmire, no matter how many times they are promised that they'll be "greeted as liberators?" Not even the Amerikkkan sheeple are THAT fucking stupid.
We dont want to invade anyone.
We will destroy enemies from the air.
Bomb and destroy militaries and infrastructure.
There won't be any "liberators" to greet because it will be done from the air.
That will never happen, CU4. Never. Not on this planet, not in this universe.
Yes it will happen if the IslamoNazis attempt to overthrow Israel, Jordan, or Saudi Arabia and it is needed.
It's a fantasy which appeals to the pathologically violent, and to the hundreds of millions of frustrated,
undervalued, powerless and angry individuals churned out by the capitalist system.
No it is what people will do if IslamoNazis really want to push their luck.
If you really think it is a fantasy then why do we spend billions making and maintaining nukes.
Yeah it's just a fantasy all those subs with nukes.
Yeah it's just a fantasy all the bombers with nukes.
Yeah NORAD operated 24/7 is a fantasy.
It's even silly to talk about what could happen to Amerikkka if it nuked Iran,
Oh that is so scary what a nuked Iran could do to the United States.
Oh I soooooo scared.
because there is just no chance in hell of it ever happening.
Yeah keep on fooling yourself.
Good question. IMHO, the action will come from the ground up. This would be a spontaneous groundswell of anti-American rage - - overthrowing puppet governments, spontaneously boycotting
Oh another "The Arab street is gonna rise up"?
LOL
Yeah we've heard that before.
Russia would probably re-arm
Oh boy now thats scary too.
Boy that could really keep Israel from nuking Iran.
LOL
China would do what it's gonna do anyway. It is going to find a friend or a couple of friends in the Middle East.
Oh boy another really really scary thought.
Now that will really have Israel shaking in it's boots.
And that would be who?
That would be Israel.
They will nuke Iran if needed.
The morons in Tehran know it too.
Basically they're cowards who don't have the balls to face their enemies man-to-man but shoot from the protection of armoured vehicles or tanks, bomb defenceless positions with jet fighters and torture their prisoners.
Thats the point of war Michael.
Dont get killed and kill the enemy.
A guy with superior weapons should kill the enemy, not lay down superior weapons becasue the moron enemy must use a club.
Thats the point.
That's your dilemma, CU - - your leaders will never drop The Bomb because they couldn't survive the consequences.
Oh Israel will drop the bomb if needed and the US will too.
No, I don't.
I do.
Israel will never be defeated.
Their enemies will understand that very clearly.
Hopefully soo.
Why don't they just nuke 'em right now, if they don't give a shit for world opinion?
I would have already.
I assure you I dont give a rats ass about "world opinion".
They would be given very specific warning criteria.
The pain level would increase until their behavior stopped.
It would be up to them when to say "uncle".
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oh and by the way
Michael if you are 100% confident the Mullahs would never ever ever be nuked
You should tell them
LOL
Because they are working like hell to get a nuke
Ummm I wonder why they would want one if they would as you say never ever ever be nuked?
Yeah sure, obviously they know what I say is true
and they are working their ass off to try and have a response
They know whats gonna happen
-
<<No the longer it goes on the further back men that live in the 1400's fall farther behind.>>
Maybe that would be true if the world really were rapidly changing, but it's not changing all that fast and the mullahs aren't standing still either. They too can move with the times and their system is more flexible than you give it credit for. It accommodates various factions of religious leaders, some more liberal than others, some who despise Ahmadinejad, others who don't.
<<The world is rapidly changing and they are being left behind.>>
Do you know anyone who's been to Iran lately? I do. The dress codes have lightened up and the bearded guys who whip women in the streets for indecent dress aren't anywhere near as prevalent as before. People hold house parties in Teheran with alcohol and women in skirts and they aren't afraid of the morality police, at least not in the more affluent areas. It ain't Rodeo Drive, but it has changed.
<<The people they control would rather be working at DELL that in the Iranian KODS forces.>>
There's some truth to that. But there are a lot of people in Iran - - 73 million, and they're not all slackers. The lower ranks of the military always could count on uneducated boys from the countryside, and they're still available in large numbers.
<<Everybody knows the Iranian youth don't like the Mullahs and enjoy Western lifestyles.>>
That doesn't mean that they would welcome an Amerikkkan invasion any more than the Iraqis did. They know what the Shah and his secret police ("SAVAK") did to the people, and they're definitely not anxious to have the Amerikkkans pick their next leader for them.
<<Time is not on the Mullahs side.>>
The Mullahs can be replaced, that's for sure. Iran had a very active Communist Party, the "Tudeh" Party, which went underground after the Amerikkkans overthrew the Mossadegh government and brought the Shah back. A lot of people wonder where the Tudeh went and some people say you don't have to look any further than the Revolutionary Guards. The Mullahs weren't the first revolutionary government of Iraq, you know. First came the Bakhtiar government, then the Mullahs. I guess my point is that you don't have to be a religious fanatic to be an anti-American Iranian.
<<Oh yeah it [the U.S. position in Iraq and Afghanistan] is crumbling. LOL.
<<The democrats in Congress hardly even mention it anymore.
<<Remember the "put us in charge and we''ll get out of Iraq" -LOL - yeah sure Ms Pelosi
<<They control Congress and under them the surge of even more troops happened.>>
I think they're getting nowhere and everyone knows it. The Democrats are laying off the topic because they don't want to make any enemies in the "Stay the Course" crowd and the Republicans for similar but opposite reasons. Each side needs every vote it can get. When the election is over, you better hope it's a Republican because the Democrats are gonna pull that plug. It's not their war, they didn't start it, and they've got no ego at stake in it. As I've been predicting for a few years now, your currency can't stand the strain - - it's already floating downward, the stock market is going the same way, and major inflation is staring you right in the face. A huge continuing drain on your Treasury is a luxury you can no longer afford. This was actually the same reason that forced the U.S. to cut and run from Nam.
Here's something to think about - - you were lied to about every aspect of this war. What makes you think now they are telling you the truth about what it is costing? About a year ago, a Nobel-Prize-winning economist, Professor Joseph Stiglitz, said that the war had by then cost 1.5 trillion
dollars.
<<We will destroy enemies from the air.
<<Bomb and destroy militaries and infrastructure.
<<There won't be any "liberators" to greet because it will be done from the air.>>
Doesn't work though, does it? Your chickenshit armies will have to go there on foot, just like Afghanistan, just like Iraq, just like Viet Nam. But there aren't enough men now. There isn't enough money either. And Iran isn't some piss-ant little country like Iraq - - there are 73 million Iranians, only about 7 million less than the number of Vietnamese. Remember what happened when you tried to fuck with the Vietnamese, tough guy?
<<Yes it [nuking Iran] will happen if the IslamoNazis attempt to overthrow Israel, Jordan, or Saudi Arabia and it is needed.>>
No, it won't. Your country doesn't have the balls. The threats to Jordan and Saudi Arabia will come from the inside anyway. There will be no one to nuke. Israel will fall apart due to lack of funding when Amerikkka realizes - - or rather, when the Amerikkkan sheeple finally realize - - what their government's support of Israel is really costing them.
<<No it is what people will do if IslamoNazis really want to push their luck.
<<If you really think it is a fantasy then why do we spend billions making and maintaining nukes.
<<Yeah it's just a fantasy all those subs with nukes.
<<Yeah it's just a fantasy all the bombers with nukes.
<<Yeah NORAD operated 24/7 is a fantasy.>>
Those are all Cold War relics. They were built after the U.S. lost its nuclear monopoly to the U.S.S.R. It made a lot of sense to maintain a credible nuclear deterrent when it was obvious that the other side had the same kind of nukes, nuclear-armed subs etc. There was an arms race in which neither side could allow itself to fall behind. Why are these maintained? Because one day China will be as big a threat as they thought (or pretended) that Russia was. Nobody is maintaining that kind of nuclear capability to deal with Iran or any other Middle Eastern country, whose nuclear capability, at best, would be primitive.
<<Oh that is so scary what a nuked Iran could do to the United States.
<<Oh I soooooo scared.>>
You really sound like a fucking moron. The consequences would go far beyond what a nuked Iran would do to you. It's the rest of the world you'd have to deal with.
<<Oh another "The Arab street is gonna rise up"?
<<LOL
<<Yeah we've heard that before.>>
Let me spell it out for you. The Islamic Revolution, which cost Amerikkka its control of Iran, broke out because Jimmy Carter was dumb enough to allow the deposed Shah to enter the U.S. for "humanitarian reasons" for cancer treatment. The Second Intifada broke out because Ariel Sharon was dumb enough to make an unappreciated visit to the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. What do you think would happen if any President was dumb enough to follow your moronic advice and nuke Iran?
<<Oh boy now thats [Russian re-armament] scary too.
<<Boy that could really keep Israel from nuking Iran.
<<LOL>>
Oh, my mistake, I guess your dollar's NOT circling the drain after all, and you're not on the brink of runaway inflation. And the price of oil is falling back. Musta got my facts twisted. So this is really a good time for you to involve yourselves in another arms race. You can really afford another arms race, is that it?
<<Oh boy another really really scary thought. [that China will begin to line up allies in the Mid East]
<<Now that will really have Israel shaking in it's boots. >>
One way to get allies is to back them with weaponry, advisers and maybe even "volunteers" if they are considering the need for a little more military muscle. Depending on whom the Chinese wish to befriend, I think any sensible Israeli WOULD be shaking in his boots. But I didn't really mention this as a deterrent, simply because I think it's in China's interest to do this, and it would be in China's interest no matter what happens between Israel and its neighbours. The more aggressive Israel is with its neighbours in the region, the easier it will be for the Chinese to make friends.
<<Thats the point of war Michael.
<<Dont get killed and kill the enemy.
<<A guy with superior weapons should kill the enemy, not lay down superior weapons becasue the <<moron enemy must use a club.
<<Thats the point.>>
Well, let me ask you this, CU - - WHAT is the point of a war where it costs you an average fifty million or more dollars to kill one enemy soldier because the chickenshit cowards you send into battle are demanding tens of millions of dollars worth of high-tech weaponry to save their miserable worthless asses, while the enemy is fighting practically bare-assed naked and doesn't give a shit if he lives or dies? Who do YOU think is going to be the first one to break off the hostilities and go home?
<<Israel will never be defeated.>>
Oh but they've been defeated before. Lots of times. In the worst possible ways.
<<Their enemies will understand that very clearly.>>
They haven't quit fighting in 60 years, so I guess they don't understand it as clearly as you do. But then again, they only live there and see the situation first-hand so what the fuck would they know?
<<Hopefully soon>>.
Keep dreamin, CU