DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Universe Prince on June 02, 2008, 03:24:15 PM

Title: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Universe Prince on June 02, 2008, 03:24:15 PM
I may have mentioned this case before. Derrick Foster was in a friend's house, partaking of some gambling, when police busted into the place. Foster claims he heard no announcement that police were at the door, only a boom. His conclusion, and that of his pals, was that someone was trying to break in to rob the place. Foster was carrying a firearm, and had a permit for it. Understandably, he reached for the weapon. Police say they did not fire. Foster says he fired back after hearing a shot. Two police officers were wounded. Needless to say, Foster is in jail. Foster has, prior to this, no criminal record and was a code inspector (he resigned after being arrested) for the city of Columbus, Ohio.

Foster also apparently has some friends willing to speak up in support of his character. Unfortunately for his friends, the police did not appreciate the letters on his behalf.

      At least 14 people, including former Ohio State University athletes who knew him as a Buckeye football player, have written letters of support for Foster, who is charged with four counts of felonious assault of a police officer. Weiner cited the letters in seeking Foster's release on house arrest during a hearing on May 22.

Franklin County Common Pleas Judge David E. Cain denied that request. The Fraternal Order of Police passed on many of the supporters' letters to its 4,100 members and encouraged them to express their displeasure or boycott their businesses.

[...]

The first two union targets were Michael McGuire, the owner of a Budget car-rental location and a lifelong friend of Foster's; and Pickerington Central High School Principal Scott Reeves, who met Foster at OSU in the mid-1980s.

McGuire said he felt threatened when one officer called him and the union sent him an e-mail after he wrote that Foster "is a tremendous role model to his children and other teens in the community."

[...]

Despite the reprimand, the police union intends to have representatives at the next school board meeting to display their frustration with Reeves, Gilbert said.
      

The Columbus Dispatch (http://dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/06/02/support.ART_ART_06-02-08_B1_FFACHB2.html?sid=101)

Since these people who spoke on Foster's behalf are obviously the people the defense lawyer would call on to speak about Foster's character in court, this looks to me a lot like police intimidation. But I guess it can't be called that because the police are not techinically the ones doing this. It's the police union.

      "I still believe he's a threat to society. The minute you put your thoughts on a letterhead, you open yourself and your business up to criticism," said Jim Gilbert, president of Capital City Lodge No. 9. "We're asking our officers and the public to stand up between the citizens and the violence they put against our officers."      

They're just defending the police. Who could be against that, right?
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Lanya on June 02, 2008, 05:00:36 PM
That's dirty as hell.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Universe Prince on June 02, 2008, 05:16:37 PM
And hell is pretty dirty, so I hear.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Rich on June 02, 2008, 05:20:17 PM
So what's the police's side of the story?
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Universe Prince on June 02, 2008, 06:09:18 PM
The police side of the story, as best I can determine, is that they had a warrant to look for drugs in a suspected crack house, the police announced themselves twice, and busted in the door, at which point Foster opened fire (he shot twice). No one has been charged with drug related crimes. Foster says he heard a gun shot and fired back. Police say none of the officers fired their weapons until fired upon, at which point they fired into the house but hit no one. They are basically treating Foster as a violent criminal.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: sirs on June 02, 2008, 07:30:01 PM
I'm gonna have to give the benefit of the doubt to the Police officers on this one, until there's incontributable evidence that the police barged in unannounced (a tactic they rarely do), and fired their weapons 1st (which they are trained not to do, especially those that are entering a high risk enviroment, unless they see a firearm or other deadly weapon pointed at them upon entering, which again, I have no problem with
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Amianthus on June 02, 2008, 07:36:13 PM
I'm gonna have to give the benefit of the doubt to the Police officers on this one, until there's incontributable evidence that the police barged in unannounced (a tactic they rarely do),

Actually, it's becoming quite common for police to use "no knock" tactics on all drug raids - to prevent the drugs from being destroyed. So, unfortunately, I have to give credence to Foster's account.

What's truly unfortunate is the police union's actions in retaliation.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: kimba1 on June 02, 2008, 07:38:38 PM
no matter what
those officer`s and friends of officers got no reason to mess with the businesses and people.
they can publicly defend the arrest
but this


I still believe he's a threat to society. The minute you put your thoughts on a letterhead, you open yourself and your business up to criticism," said Jim Gilbert, president of Capital City Lodge No. 9. "We're asking our officers and the public to stand up between the citizens and the violence they put against our officers."

meaning people have no right to support anyone they THINK is innocent.
personally I got no idea what really happen.
but It looks like the boy did wrong accidentally shooting those officers.
and should still pay for it
but it doesn`t mean those cops should be messing with the character witnesses.
if anything this should be evidence of police corruption.
how on earth is this kind of thinking acceptable.
looks to me they are hidding something.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: sirs on June 02, 2008, 07:39:21 PM
What's truly unfortunate is the police union's actions in retaliation.

That I can wholeheartedly concur with.  But to you prior point ami, I've heard that such raids have a simultaneous "Police!!" with the knocking down of the door.  I don't have a problem with that either.   But you've heard that they don't even announce police?
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Universe Prince on June 02, 2008, 08:47:05 PM

I'm gonna have to give the benefit of the doubt to the Police officers on this one, until there's incontributable evidence that the police barged in unannounced (a tactic they rarely do), and fired their weapons 1st (which they are trained not to do, especially those that are entering a high risk enviroment, unless they see a firearm or other deadly weapon pointed at them upon entering, which again, I have no problem with


Reportedly there is witness who claimed the police did not announce themselves before entering, but did give an order for windows to be broken. And they were not entering a high risk environment. Most house raids are far from high risk environments. The goal is to rush in and disorient potential suspects before they can dispose of evidence and to give the police the opportunity to assert complete authority. I know police officers are supposed to announce themselves, but I keep reading story after story where people inside the houses are claiming not to have heard, and I don't mean hardened criminals looking for an escape. I mean ordinary people who hear only a loud bang and their first impulse is self-defense or defense of their families. And sometimes the police are not even at the right house. Loud bangs and people breaking into the house frightens people, but we're supposed to believe the person acting in self-defense is a dangerous criminal who wanted to shoot a cop? I'm not buying it.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Michael Tee on June 02, 2008, 10:06:25 PM
Does anybody think the problem is the law that allows guys like Foster to carry handguns?  It's lucky that he didn't kill the two cops.  I've never heard of a drug raid where the cops DON'T yell "Police!" when they bust in - - what's the big secret?  You think the cops WANT to get shot?

Now as far as police intimidation of witnesses goes, that is just a crime, it's obstruction of justice and it doesn't matter who does it, the cops, their union or their mommas.  How the hell anyone can get away with an obvious attempt to dissuade a witness from giving evidence in court, even if it's evidence in support of a serial killer, is beyond me.  What kind of law enforcement do they have in Ohio anyway?  That's one giant step towards a police state, IMHO.  It's gotta be squelched right at the start, firmly and decisively, in a way that no cop will even THINK of it in the future.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Universe Prince on June 02, 2008, 10:46:43 PM

Does anybody think the problem is the law that allows guys like Foster to carry handguns?


Do I think the problem is the law allows people to have weapons for self-defense? No. I think the problem is the cops are increasingly using SWAT team like tactics without valid justification.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Michael Tee on June 02, 2008, 11:00:03 PM
<<I think the problem is the cops are increasingly using SWAT team like tactics without valid justification.>>

Be that as it may, a real tragedy was avoided only by blind chance or poor marksmanship here. Cops might need some reining in, but even overenthusiastic cops, who might deserve some lesser sanction or penalty, do not deserve a death penalty.  Which is exactly what they are going to get sooner or later if handgun possession by citizens is not abolished.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Universe Prince on June 02, 2008, 11:43:16 PM

Be that as it may, a real tragedy was avoided only by blind chance or poor marksmanship here. Cops might need some reining in, but even overenthusiastic cops, who might deserve some lesser sanction or penalty, do not deserve a death penalty.  Which is exactly what they are going to get sooner or later if handgun possession by citizens is not abolished.


I am guessing that by death penalty you mean getting fatally shot. Which has already happened more than once. But then, citizens do not deserve such a death penalty either, and that has happened more than once also. I have zero desire to see police get shot, but the solution to over the top police tactics resulting in people, frequently innocent citizens, being shot is not to take weapons away from the citizens. That's sort of like saying the way to keep the fox from being injured is to take the talons off the chickens.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Plane on June 02, 2008, 11:57:49 PM
Quote
Comment: Since Justice Scalia and his cohorts on the U.S. Supreme Court decided last Term in Hudson v. Michigan that the exclusionary rule no longer applies to knock-and-announce, the police no longer have any incentive to comply with the law, although the Court said that there were other purported protections of citizens besides the exclusionary rule. (Mrs. Johnston and her family would differ.) And, if the police no longer have an incentive to comply with the law, it is only natural that innocent deaths will happen, both of officers and civilians. I wrote the brief in the knock-and-announce case of Wilson v. Arkansas and I wrote most of the brief in Richards v. Wisconsin. The government always talks about the need to not announce to protect officers from injury or death at the hands of criminals, but they never wrote in any brief that they were the slightest bit concerned with potential deaths of civilians or of police at the hands of innocent civilians.

http://fourthamendment.com/blog/index.php?blog=1&title=swat_team_in_atlanta_kills_92_year_old_w&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

a northwest Atlanta neighborhood roiled over news that police had stormed a house and shot a 92-year-old woman,
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Michael Tee on June 03, 2008, 12:02:20 AM
Maybe there's just too much God-damned violence in the whole country.  By the cops, who don't have any brakes on their raiding tactics and by the citizens who have minimal brakes on gun ownership.  This is just a recipe for tragedy on both sides of the line.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Plane on June 03, 2008, 12:12:05 AM
Maybe there's just too much God-damned violence in the whole country.  By the cops, who don't have any brakes on their raiding tactics and by the citizens who have minimal brakes on gun ownership.  This is just a recipe for tragedy on both sides of the line.


What makes you complain about the citizens?


I think the Police ought to use raiding tactics with circumspection , only when it is the best choice.

When they are unsure of the correct address , milder actions ought to be tried first.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Amianthus on June 03, 2008, 08:27:29 AM
That I can wholeheartedly concur with.  But to you prior point ami, I've heard that such raids have a simultaneous "Police!!" with the knocking down of the door.  I don't have a problem with that either.   But you've heard that they don't even announce police?

They do it simultaneous with the bursting of the door. If you're inside, you might not hear the announcement over the sound of the smashing of the door. Guess it depends on how loud the guy yelling "Police" is...
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 03, 2008, 04:26:11 PM
I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the police do not actually have the right to bust a door down.
At least, they should have enough previous surveillance to know that something illegal is happening.

In the event that a cop is shot after he busts down the door of an innocent person, and that person shoots the officer or shoots at the officer, the case should be tried just as it would if some other uninvited civilian had busted down the door.

Part of this is due to inadequate gun control, of course, if there were adequate gun laws, everyone would not have a gun, and the cops would not always assume that they would be met by people with guns.

When the cops screw up like this, the individual should ALWAys sue and always get paid a bundle. just to underline how important it is that cops not go around busting doors down randomly.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Universe Prince on June 03, 2008, 05:00:05 PM

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the police do not actually have the right to bust a door down.
At least, they should have enough previous surveillance to know that something illegal is happening.


Not how it works. Police use informants. Usually informants who are themselves criminals who stay out of trouble or get deals for telling police what they want to hear.


In the event that a cop is shot after he busts down the door of an innocent person, and that person shoots the officer or shoots at the officer, the case should be tried just as it would if some other uninvited civilian had busted down the door.


Also not how it works. Police will of course always claim they announced themselves So if someone attempts self-defense, the police start with the assumption the person knew they were police and tried to shoot them anyway. The court tends to believe the police more than the citizen.


When the cops screw up like this, the individual should ALWAys sue and always get paid a bundle. just to underline how important it is that cops not go around busting doors down randomly.


You're assuming the cops accept liability and that the person whose door they busted down hasn't ended up in jail.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 03, 2008, 06:18:50 PM
I am assuming that a person who is sitting at home doing nothing illegal has a right not to be interrupted by cops or anyone else destroying their property and pointing dangerous weapons at them.

If I am on that jury and the cops are the sort that I have experience with here in Miami, I am not likely to automatically side with them, either.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Plane on June 03, 2008, 06:23:56 PM
In the USA a door that can effectively withstand a battering in  , is probly the surest sign that the house if a crack house.

Most of our exterior doors are pretty easy to break .
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 03, 2008, 06:42:23 PM
Nonetheless, regardless of how fragile my front door might be, I would consider attempts to bust it down to be hostile acts against my property and person.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: kimba1 on June 03, 2008, 06:53:27 PM
just realized

the police are expecting houses they break into not to have armed responses???
it calling out their police is a moot point isn`t it??
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Michael Tee on June 03, 2008, 07:33:16 PM
<<What makes you complain about the citizens?>>

I think of cases like that homeowner in New Orleans who shot and killed a Japanese student visitor trick-or-treating on Haloween.  Or that fucking moron in Michigan who left a loaded gun in the oven, which then fired when the oven heated up, killing a child.  I'm all for self-defence, but I'll bet that if anyone kept stats on gun homicides in America, the slaughter of innocent victims would dwarf the cases of homicide due to armed legitimate self-defence.


<<I think the Police ought to use raiding tactics with circumspection , only when it is the best choice.>>

Well first they need a warrant, don't they?  A judge has got to review affidavit evidence showing why the need to enter, and I guess in a no-knock warrant, there'd have to be a shitload of affidavit evidence justifying the need.

<<When they are unsure of the correct address , milder actions ought to be tried first.>>

I don't know the state of the law in the U.S. or even Canada on this, but I'd imagine if they couldn't swear to the correct address, they would not get the warrant.  They gotta do a LITTLE homework before the judicial system will authorize them to kick down someone's door.  I'm sure there are abuses of the system, false affidavits, complaisant judges, but the remedies exist.  No system is perfect.  But the police actions are subject to judicial oversight before and after.  The actions of some nut with a gun are subject to judicial oversight only after the fact.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Amianthus on June 03, 2008, 07:35:09 PM
I'm all for self-defence, but I'll bet that if anyone kept stats on gun homicides in America, the slaughter of innocent victims would dwarf the cases of homicide due to armed legitimate self-defence.

They do keep stats.

And the stats show that your statement is wrong.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: sirs on June 03, 2008, 07:39:30 PM
<<What makes you complain about the citizens?>>

I'm all for self-defence, but I'll bet that if anyone kept stats on gun homicides in America, the slaughter of innocent victims would dwarf the cases of homicide due to armed legitimate self-defence.

Last time I checked, the # of crimes that were prevented, including potential rapes, home invasions, and murder attempts, when a gun was either used or simply brandished FAR outnumbered those killed accidentally or via suicide by way of the firearm.  Unfortunately, there's no law against stupidity


Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Universe Prince on June 03, 2008, 08:21:40 PM

I am assuming that a person who is sitting at home doing nothing illegal has a right not to be interrupted by cops or anyone else destroying their property and pointing dangerous weapons at them.


That should be the case, imo. Unfortunately, the police generally see it differently.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on June 03, 2008, 10:12:44 PM
That should be the case, imo. Unfortunately, the police generally see it differently.
==============================================
When this is the case, we should fire their sorry asses and replace them.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Michael Tee on June 03, 2008, 10:19:37 PM
<<They do keep stats.

<<And the stats show that your statement is wrong.>>

Who are "they?"  The NRA?
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Universe Prince on June 03, 2008, 11:45:59 PM

When this is the case, we should fire their sorry asses and replace them.


Good luck with that.
Title: Re: what not to do when a friend is arrested
Post by: Amianthus on June 04, 2008, 12:15:18 AM
Who are "they?"  The NRA?

The US Government and the UN. The NRA just uses the stats published by those organizations.