DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Cynthia on June 26, 2008, 12:48:13 AM
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I have been listening to O'Reilly tonight. The Miller Time guy is on...Dennis, for short.
Ok, he makes a good point.
Are we in danger of criticizing a potential President Obama at the risk of being called a racist?
Sounds silly, but isn't this an honest point during this time in our growth as a country---
I am all for Obama...although I wanted Hillary for Prez, but are we in danger of walking on thin glass when Obama becomes our first African American president?
I realize that I am saying "when". . .but I believe we are going to see this man in office.
So, I ask the board a critical and honest question......
Will Americans be able to criticize, make fun of in SNL, etc etc if our leader is a black man?
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Will Americans be able to criticize, make fun of in SNL, etc etc if our leader is a black man?
Why not? For the last 5+ years we've been able to make fun of a mentally handicapped president.
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The campaign trail is tough, we still have some time to get to know Senator Obama.
We definately need to know that he can handle the job , if he cannot ,then being the first Black skinned president might be his sole accomplishment .
That would not be enough.
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Will Americans be able to criticize, make fun of in SNL, etc etc if our leader is a black man?
Why not? For the last 5+ years we've been able to make fun of a mentally handicapped president.
ah, but HP, your response is too quick in terms of an honest thought provoking response. You have not given enough time to ponder on the question, I have to say.
This is a BLACK MALE...not an idiot, like Bush.
Your point holds little water. Think, man think......we are not talking about a man who was an idiot and a buffoon.... like BUSH.
Perhaps it is too soon to elect a man of color in the times in which we live.....because by doing so, will we not send him in the arena as the lamb to be slaughtered based on race? IMO, Obama just might become the most eloquent president since Lincoln, but I will never jump to judge him as we have done so with past presidents, like Bush, no matter what decisions he makes as our leader.
WHY? BECAUSE of his race. I want him to win as a liberal AND competent BLACK MALE.
I am being honest for now, that is. Let's just see if the average American will either hate him because of race or love him too much because of race.
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"I want him to win as a liberal AND competent BLACK MALE"
I want him to lose because he is super liberal and believe (regardless of color) he is not competent to be
President of the United States. I agree with the former Democratic VP nominee that said about Barack Hussein Obama: if he "was a white man, he would not be in this position....He happens to be very lucky to be who he is......"
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I want him to WIN because it will be a major step against racism that holds everyone back in my country. I want an end to Juniorbush's unwinnable war, and a government that cares more about the Americans people than the shareholders of Blackwater, Halliburton, Big Oil, Big Pharma, and others profiteering from wars and the stupidity and incompetence of the oligarchy.
No party has ever deserved punishment so much as the asshole Republicans. They seem to have accomplished their goal of outdoing the corruption and incompetence of Nixon.
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"asshole Republicans"
Boy I bet the uniter Obama would be really proud! :D
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But they are assholes.
They should repent.
I do not work for Obama, jerk.
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But they are assholes.
I am an "asshole" because I study an issue and arrive at a different conclusion than you do?
LOL yeah thats real bright XO.
I do not work for Obama, jerk.
Big brave guy on the computer! ::)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa56/USA2008/Politics/fb6-1.jpg)
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ah, but HP, your response is too quick in terms of an honest thought provoking response. You have not given enough time to ponder on the question, I have to say.
This is a BLACK MALE...not an idiot, like Bush.
Your point holds little water. Think, man think......we are not talking about a man who was an idiot and a buffoon.... like BUSH.
I did think. If we can poke fun at idjits, why not poke fun at a black man? Not because he's black, but because he's scrawny (maybe Michelle can't cook), has big ears, who knows what other reasons might come up - hell, in office, there is even the chance he might prove even less intelligent than the current contestant, though that would be a stretch. Just because he might be the first black president is no reason to give him a pass.
Perhaps it is too soon to elect a man of color in the times in which we live.....because by doing so, will we not send him in the arena as the lamb to be slaughtered based on race? IMO, Obama just might become the most eloquent president since Lincoln, but I will never jump to judge him as we have done so with past presidents, like Bush, no matter what decisions he makes as our leader.
WHY? BECAUSE of his race. I want him to win as a liberal AND competent BLACK MALE.
I am being honest for now, that is. Let's just see if the average American will either hate him because of race or love him too much because of race.
So you are one of those who want him to win just because he is black? I wouldn't care if he was purple, but if he's not competent to hold the position, I don't want him there. Just being black isn't enough.
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But they are assholes.
I am an "asshole" because I study an issue and arrive at a different conclusion than you do?
LOL yeah thats real bright XO.
I do not work for Obama, jerk.
Big brave guy on the computer! ::)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa56/USA2008/Politics/fb6-1.jpg)
Why CU4, who knew? You look like a man ready for the World Record book.
;)
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ah, but HP, your response is too quick in terms of an honest thought provoking response. You have not given enough time to ponder on the question, I have to say.
This is a BLACK MALE...not an idiot, like Bush.
Your point holds little water. Think, man think......we are not talking about a man who was an idiot and a buffoon.... like BUSH.
I did think. If we can poke fun at idjits, why not poke fun at a black man? Not because he's black, but because he's scrawny (maybe Michelle can't cook), has big ears, who knows what other reasons might come up - hell, in office, there is even the chance he might prove even less intelligent than the current contestant, though that would be a stretch. Just because he might be the first black president is no reason to give him a pass.
Perhaps it is too soon to elect a man of color in the times in which we live.....because by doing so, will we not send him in the arena as the lamb to be slaughtered based on race? IMO, Obama just might become the most eloquent president since Lincoln, but I will never jump to judge him as we have done so with past presidents, like Bush, no matter what decisions he makes as our leader.
WHY? BECAUSE of his race. I want him to win as a liberal AND competent BLACK MALE.
I am being honest for now, that is. Let's just see if the average American will either hate him because of race or love him too much because of race.
So you are one of those who want him to win just because he is black? I wouldn't care if he was purple, but if he's not competent to hold the position, I don't want him there. Just being black isn't enough.
So you are one of those who want him to win just because he is black? I wouldn't care if he was purple, but if he's not competent to hold the position, I don't want him there. Just being black isn't enough.
No, I actually wanted Clinton (sans her hubby if that was at all possible) and not because she is a woman, but because she is a strong liberal candidate with more experience in world affairs tha nObama. I think Obama supports change and cares about more of the nation's ills than McCain.
Just because he might be the first black president is no reason to give him a pass.
He will not be given a free pass if elected into office. It goes without saying most presidents find themselves the subject of parody on SNL, in political comic strips, etc. It will be interesting to see how the race card is called when Obama begins the very needed readjustment of government as president.
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Does it really look like anybody is going to give Obama a pass? So far, we've heard he's a Muslim, a bosom buddy of terrorists AND crooked developers, an incompetent, inexperienced ignoramus who thinks there are 57 States and he wasn't even born in Hawaii because his birth certificate was faked. Now just wait till the campaign gets into its final weeks.
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Does it really look like anybody is going to give Obama a pass? So far, we've heard he's a Muslim, and he wasn't even born in Hawaii because his birth certificate was faked.
Probly not true.
a bosom buddy of terrorists... crooked developers, an incompetent, inexperienced ignoramus who thinks there are 57 States
Proven true , this was self inflicted damage.
Now just wait till the campaign gets into its final weeks.
I am looking forward to it , lots of amusement watching the truth being mixed with untruth both to expand the accusation and to destroy the credibility of the accusations.
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This 57 state thing is no longer a problem. I am pretty sure he knows that there are just fifty by now.
He was tired and meant to say that he had visited 47 states of the fifty.
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This 57 state thing is no longer a problem. I am pretty sure he knows that there are just fifty by now.
He was tired and meant to say that he had visited 47 states of the fifty.
That is true , things like this never made me dislike Dan Quaile or George Bush 43.
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I am not part of the problem. I am a Republican.
Dan Quayle
I deserve respect for the things I did not do.
Dan Quayle
I have made good judgements in the past. I have made good judgements in the future.
Dan Quayle
I love California, I practically grew up in Phoenix.
Dan Quayle
I stand by all the misstatements that I've made.
Dan Quayle
...
Well, at least he didn't invent the internet.
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(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e295/kristigator/2008%20Election/ObamaChange-1.jpg)
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Oh, come on, Obama wrote a whole friggin' BOOK about the changes.
Not that you actually read books, but if you really were interested instead of seeing how grotesque a smartass you can be, you could read it.
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Oh, come on, Obama wrote a whole friggin' BOOK about the changes.
Not that you actually read books, but if you really were interested instead of seeing how grotesque a smartass you can be, you could read it.
If you have read it you can tell us what he is planning that is diffrent from the liberal standard we have grown accustomed to for the last three decades.
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(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w257/amoose14/liberals/obamachangejpg.jpg)
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The liberal standard does not include special tax breaks for the rich,
it does not include starting wars pre-emptively, or fat contracts for entire armies of rent-a-cops.
Liberals are cool.
Conservatives have nothing to conserve. They will not shrink government, and have not done so in recent memory. The "conservative" agenda is nothing but an unholy alliance of super rich oligarchs, their fundie religious dupes, and of course the racists they keep in the closet until election day.
It will be fun to watch them go down in smoke and flames.
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The liberal standard does not include special tax breaks for the rich,
it does not include starting wars pre-emptively, or fat contracts for entire armies of rent-a-cops.
Liberals are cool.
Conservatives have nothing to conserve. They will not shrink government, and have not done so in recent memory. The "conservative" agenda is nothing but an unholy alliance of super rich oligarchs, their fundie religious dupes, and of course the racists they keep in the closet until election day.
It will be fun to watch them go down in smoke and flames.
I am a bit dissapointed in conservative performance since the Republican revolution in 94, such a huge mandate represents a huge missed oppurtunity as the seduction of Washington led the revolutionarys into a slight -ly changed business as usual rather than the real shake up that inspired the voter turnout.
Looks like you are setting yourself up for a bit of dissapointment too. Barak Obama is all set to make reactionary changes to produce the Democratic agenda as it has been since 68.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0608/11384.html
Faced with tough choices on fronts ranging from public financing and town hall meetings to warrantless surveillance and the Second Amendment, Obama passed up opportunities to take bold stands and make striking departures from customary politics. Instead, he has followed a familiar tack, straddling controversial issues and choosing politically advantageous routes that will ensure his campaign a cash edge and minimize damaging blowback on several highly sensitive issues.
Obama's embrace of political pragmatism came into sharp focus Thursday with the landmark Supreme Court ruling that overturned Washington, D.C.'s handgun ban and declared for the first time an individual right to possess a gun.
As an Illinois state legislator, Obama generally supported tighter restrictions on firearms and served on the board of a foundation that funded legal scholarship advancing the theory that the Second Amendment does not protect individual gun owners' rights, as well as 14 separate groups that ultimately signed an amicus brief supporting the D.C. ban.
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Shortly before the court decision, Obama sought to sidestep another political land mine over controversial Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act legislation. His support for a government surveillance bill that offers retroactive immunity to telecommunications companies ? a bill that he vowed last year to filibuster ? angered liberal Internet activists who felt betrayed by what they saw as a politically expedient move designed to inoculate himself against GOP charges that he's weak on national security.
But Obama explained it to reporters Wednesday by pointing out that the bill has changed from when he made his filibuster pledge, saying the latest version allayed several concerns, including providing closer oversight of the government surveillance program. Yet it still effectively offers retroactive immunity to telecommunications companies that aided the administration's warrantless wiretapping efforts, a key point Obama said he would oppose. He said Wednesday that he was satisfied with the requirement for an inspector general's review.
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The calculations that mark Obama's delicate approach toward the FISA bill and the Supreme Court gun ruling come on the heels of his decision last week to reverse a pledge he made last year to participate in the public financing system in the general election if his Republican opponent agreed to do the same ? a move that made him the first modern presidential candidate to decline public financing in a general election.
McCain has agreed to participate in the system, which provides candidates $84 million in taxpayer cash but limits their campaign spending to that amount. Obama, whose historic fundraising ability was unknown when he made the pledge, is expected to easily surpass that tally.
Though he did not frame it as such, Obama's reversal was widely viewed by campaign finance reformers and editorial boards as a strategic choice to put his likely huge campaign cash advantage over his commitment to government reform.
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Looks like you are setting yourself up for a bit of dissapointment too. Barak Obama is all set to make reactionary changes to produce the Democratic agenda as it has been since 68.
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Do you actually READ these sentences? Is this clear to YOU?
Obama must run a campaign to sympathize with the liberal base of the party in the primary, and then must run as a moderate in the general election, because the voters are different in each election.
This is why McCain has renounced his own former views on immigration, taxes and all manner of other stuff.
Now he says he's for change, too, because only the most brain dead of drooling knuckle-walking morons want another helping of the vile Juniorbush and the repulsive Cheney.
It seems that neither candidate is going to make as lame a VP decision as Juniorbush, either. There is some really serious vetting going on in both parties.
I do not see Obama as a cure-all, as perhaps you did Gingrich.
Gun control will no longer be an issue unless it resurfaces as an amendment to the Constitution, which, like an anti-abortion amendment I don't see as likely.
McCain's scanty fund raising abilities are not really what counts here. It is the GOP, the entire Party, that can raise money from all its lobbyist pals, and a major thrust of 527's after the convention that Obama has to fear. If Obama has to choose between becoming president and losing to a bunch of veiled racist ads, then I see his raising his own money as the wiser choice. Kerry and Dukakis ran miserable campaigns, as did Bob Dole.
No one needs a rerun of 2004 or 2000 or even 1988 or 1996.
It does appear at this moment that McCain is going to do something like a rerun of the Bobdole campaign.
His wife will figure more prominently, though. I mean his PRESENT wife, as McCain has two wives, like Dole.
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"Now he says he's for change, too, because only the most brain dead of drooling knuckle-walking morons want another helping of the vile Juniorbush and the repulsive Cheney."
Interesting thought, XO.
I believe that Obama has a genuine, "country-saving idealistic" view of what we need in this nation, and perhaps he is a bit far left for some; but the desire for such change has a lot to do with the past administration. We as a nation are tired of this senseless war, and the overkill, lack-of-skill "acts" etc brought about by Bush. Bush apparentlly refuses to look at energy resources that are begging for attention-like wind, solar etc?(Meet the Press this past Sunday)
Your point is right on, but I wonder if people realize why they are voting for Obama instead of McCain. Is it that hope springs eternal? Gas prices, war, frustrations from the right.
This statement of yours, albeit one I believe to be true, is also a statement to be concerned about.
What has Obama promised to do for us as a nation in order to tap into that hopeful spring?
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What has Obama promised to do for us as a nation in order to tap into that hopeful spring?
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Merely by being elected, he would prove to the people of theis country and the world that this was not a racist nation.
He has said he would remove troops as rapidly as possible from Iraq.
He has said that he will try to enact a decent health care policy for everyone.
Generally, he has been talking more about what he is for than what he is against.
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This 57 state thing is no longer a problem. I am pretty sure he knows that there are just fifty by now.
He was tired and meant to say that he had visited 47 states of the fifty.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/57states.asp
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What has Obama promised to do for us as a nation in order to tap into that hopeful spring?
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Merely by being elected, he would prove to the people of theis country and the world that this was not a racist nation.
He has said he would remove troops as rapidly as possible from Iraq.
He has said that he will try to enact a decent health care policy for everyone.
Generally, he has been talking more about what he is for than what he is against.
As a nation we have come a long way in terms of racism, true.
He said he would remove troops from Iraq, but I hope he remains focused on the fight in Afghanistan. He might want to withdraw the troops from Iraq slowly, but surely, however. The chaos of complete cold turkey withdraw will only bring in support from neighboring countries like Iran.
In effect, the president can want for much, but we all know that congress makes the final decision. Sometimes I wonder why we focus so much on a presidential election when there are others running the show.
I know I am voting for Obama for the very reasons you have lined out, Xavier, and of course we are all hoping for a major reform of the NCLB act.
But, we can't stop a speeding train with luggage packed in full, even though it is so ridiculously out of control.
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What has Obama promised to do for us as a nation in order to tap into that hopeful spring?
==================================
Merely by being elected, he would prove to the people of theis country and the world that this was not a racist nation.
He has said he would remove troops as rapidly as possible from Iraq.
He has said that he will try to enact a decent health care policy for everyone.
Generally, he has been talking more about what he is for than what he is against.
As a nation we have come a long way in terms of racism, true.
He said he would remove troops from Iraq, but I hope he remains focused on the fight in Afghanistan. He might want to withdraw the troops from Iraq slowly, but surely, however. The chaos of complete cold turkey withdraw will only bring in support from neighboring countries like Iran.
In effect, the president can want for much, but we all know that congress makes the final decision. Sometimes I wonder why we focus so much on a presidential election when there are others running the show.
I know I am voting for Obama for the very reasons you have lined out, Xavier, and of course we are all hoping for a major reform of the NCLB act.
But, we can't stop a speeding train with luggage packed in full, even though it is so ridiculously out of control.
So you expect the diffrence in methods to be stubtle at first?
But you are expecting a serious diffrence in goals?
That is exactly what I expect and what I don't like.
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Splain, Plane...
Why not?
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As far as I can tell the "change" is an ephemeral promise. The political record of Senator Obama is severely leftist so the real manifestation of change is simply going to be the same platform the Democrats have had for decades.
As if we are finally going to give Jimmy Carter his second term.
I could be surprised I suppose but what is the reason for being vague?
On the upside , a coupple oif years of bad liberal changes was really good for the Republican party between 92 - 94, even the bad Democratic president got the message of the Republican revolution and adopted as much of the Republican platform as he could rip off.
Things trailed off and the chargeing trumpeting Elephant heard got mired in the slough at foggy bottom, can they learn that the people really don't want more of the same if a cupple of years of really bad government under another charming and vaguely promiseing Democrat must happen again? This sort of teaching is expensive.
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At the very least, the GOP deserves to lose big and sit one out.
Carter meant well but was betrayed by his own countrymen, notably Kissinger.
Juniorbush didn't stand for anything except favored for fatcats until 9-11 gave him a chance to demonstrate how utterly incompetent, foolish and stubborn he could be. The worst president since Jefferson Davis.
Only time will tell whether he surpasses Davis by escaping the White House disguised as a chambermaid.
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(http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/%7Be7d28835-4f0a-4499-97a6-c384e39ef878%7D.gif)
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(http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/%7Be7d28835-4f0a-4499-97a6-c384e39ef878%7D.gif)
Funny.
but, these comic strips you and Zozo send our way(albeit "one trick" photos on the part of Zozo)..whether left or right....mean little in the world of OUR FUTURE!!
Bush has screwed this country to the wall. I am sad about that.
He was never smart enough to lead this world. We are, afterall THE WORLD'S BEST!
If anything, Obama has the intelligence, as does McCain.
If anything that might be the answer after all.....who's smart enough to see those trees.
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(http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/%7Be7d28835-4f0a-4499-97a6-c384e39ef878%7D.gif)
Funny.
but, these comic strips you and Zozo send our way(albeit "one trick" photos on the part of Zozo)..whether left or right....mean little in the world of OUR FUTURE!!
Bush has screwed this country to the wall. I am sad about that.
He was never smart enough to lead this world. We are, afterall THE WORLD'S BEST!
If anything, Obama has the intelligence, as does McCain.
If anything that might be the answer after all.....who's smart enough to see those trees.
The one and only positive thing I know about Barak Obama is that he speaks well.
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Carter meant well but was betrayed by his own countrymen, notably Kissinger.
I have noticed you saying this before.
But I have no idea what you mean by it.
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but, these comic strips you and Zozo send our way(albeit "one trick" photos on the part of Zozo)..
whether left or right....mean little in the world of OUR FUTURE!!
Yeah sure Cynthia as if the Michael Tee F-Bombs, the XO's "Bush & Cheney are Hitlers",
or you pretending a Harvard and Yale graduate is not smart as a way to cheaply demonize
a political opponent are really meaningful for OUR FUTURE!! Your "selective high horse" is
laughable! ::)
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but, these comic strips you and Zozo send our way(albeit "one trick" photos on the part of Zozo)..
whether left or right....mean little in the world of OUR FUTURE!!
Yeah sure Cynthia as if the Michael Tee F-Bombs, the XO's "Bush & Cheney are Hitlers",
or you pretending a Harvard and Yale graduate is not smart as a way to cheaply demonize
a political opponent are really meaningful for OUR FUTURE!! Your "selective high horse" is
laughable! ::)
A Harvard grad does not make a brilliant president, Christians.
Our Future?
It is NOW.
Look at it!!!
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One positive effect of an Obama presidency might be to make President Bush look good in contrast.
And I don't mean a little bit either!
Any slacking on the pressure on terrorist forces , followed by a terrorist attack of large scale, would force Obama to prove he isn't soft on terrorism, perhaps a small terrorist success would force President Obama to knock some heads together just to get the international community to pay attention to him.
Europe loves the President Obama idea already , this is going to be hard for him to overcome, worse than a French or English leader being seen as an American lapdog. If he doesn't get out from under the cloud of Euro love he will be vilified as Kerry only got half of.
President Obama has the wrong thing in common with President Kennedy , Youth and a perceived weakness and inexperience. After the first mistake (inevitable for any president to make one pretty soon) Foolish leaders of foreign lands will try to exploit his gullability and cowardace as Kruchev tried to do Kennedy.
The President isn't really in controll of the economy , but even if it is unfair he gets a lot of credit for its condition. The excellent economy ,that has been our good fortune for the last decade and a half,seems like it may have peaked , making it likely for us to see a severe down turn . It is unfair to blame Hoover for the great Depression , but refugee camps sprang up everywhere and were named "Hooverville" , "Obamaville" has a ring to it doesn't it? If we have a year of 10% unemployment Social security will fail right there, there is no defense against it even possible, so will President Obama draw the short straw the way Hoover did?
No Child Left Behind is one of the most bipartisan programs that we have seen recently , this didn't make it a total success, but whether President Obama decides to scrap it or keep it , he doesn't have any improvement on it ready to talk about yet. Nor is there any improvement available that doesn't step on some toes that he doesn't want to stomp on till after his second term election.
Being elected totally on charm and vague promises of hope and change , maximises the number of people who will feel betrayed with every decision he makes . Every wink and intentional vagueness is taken as a coded promise by both sides of every question as he makes an election success of being every thing to every body. What is he going to do as President when he actually has to sign some bills?
And of course he is black , to all of the world the USA will have seemed to have turned a corner and expunged its oldest shame. Getting rid of Affirmative action and never electing another politician for being black won't hurt us after President Obama takes office , but breaking the color line was not the only accomplishment of Jackie Robinson , he also played great baseball. Senator Barak Obama needs very much to be a good president , not just a placeholder till the next election . This isn't going to be easy , and I know nothing about his courage and fortitude.
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One positive effect of an Obama presidency might be to make President Bush look good in contrast.
And I don't mean a little bit either!
Any slacking on the pressure on terrorist forces , followed by a terrorist attack of large scale, would force Obama to prove he isn't soft on terrorism, perhaps a small terrorist success would force President Obama to knock some heads together just to get the international community to pay attention to him.
Europe loves the President Obama idea already , this is going to be hard for him to overcome, worse than a French or English leader being seen as an American lapdog. If he doesn't get out from under the cloud of Euro love he will be vilified as Kerry only got half of.
President Obama has the wrong thing in common with President Kennedy , Youth and a perceived weakness and inexperience. After the first mistake (inevitable for any president to make one pretty soon) Foolish leaders of foreign lands will try to exploit his gullability and cowardace as Kruchev tried to do Kennedy.
The President isn't really in controll of the economy , but even if it is unfair he gets a lot of credit for its condition. The excellent economy ,that has been our good fortune for the last decade and a half,seems like it may have peaked , making it likely for us to see a severe down turn . It is unfair to blame Hoover for the great Depression , but refugee camps sprang up everywhere and were named "Hooverville" , "Obamaville" has a ring to it doesn't it? If we have a year of 10% unemployment Social security will fail right there, there is no defense against it even possible, so will President Obama draw the short straw the way Hoover did?
No Child Left Behind is one of the most bipartisan programs that we have seen recently , this didn't make it a total success, but whether President Obama decides to scrap it or keep it , he doesn't have any improvement on it ready to talk about yet. Nor is there any improvement available that doesn't step on some toes that he doesn't want to stomp on till after his second term election.
Being elected totally on charm and vague promises of hope and change , maximises the number of people who will feel betrayed with every decision he makes . Every wink and intentional vagueness is taken as a coded promise by both sides of every question as he makes an election success of being every thing to every body. What is he going to do as President when he actually has to sign some bills?
And of course he is black , to all of the world the USA will have seemed to have turned a corner and expunged its oldest shame. Getting rid of Affirmative action and never electing another politician for being black won't hurt us after President Obama takes office , but breaking the color line was not the only accomplishment of Jackie Robinson , he also played great baseball. Senator Barak Obama needs very much to be a good president , not just a placeholder till the next election . This isn't going to be easy , and I know nothing about his courage and fortitude.
Typing with a pencil hasn't hurt your analysis one bit.
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This isn't going to be easy , and I know nothing about his courage and fortitude.
So what you don't know disqualifies Obama from being a good president?
Aren't there a lot of things you don;t know about McCain as well?
I am wondering if there was anything you didn't know about Juniorbush.
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"No Child Left Behind is one of the most bipartisan programs that we have seen recently , this didn't make it a total success, but whether President Obama decides to scrap it or keep it , he doesn't have any improvement on it ready to talk about yet. Nor is there any improvement available that doesn't step on some toes that he doesn't want to stomp on till after his second term election."
Well, I'll tell you what....when he is elected, I can bet the farm that he will improve this ill called the NCLB act....because it's wrong for children.
The left has always been in support of children. More so than the conservative right.
This NCLB act is insane. Never have I seen such a poorly planned approach to support education. It might sound as though there are opportunities to help children in the long run, but it has only proven to be a political bandaid to support BUSH.
If Obama even attempts to put some sort of common sense into the mix, we will see a better system all the way around. He is aware of the problem, so he will listen to the people. That's all we want, afterall. Bush has done nothing but toot his arrogant horn. HE had his chance. Look at where we are as a nation in the grand scheme of things.
The PS system needs support. Bush isn't about support for the average PS system. I am convinced fo that. If Obama has any intelligence, he will see that the ACT which was put in place in order to help the children in this country was nothing more that an attempt to rule the world according to BUSH.
XO is spot on .....when it comes to Bush and his over ruling. Damn this Bush was a huge mistake.
I stand by that now more than ever.
Interesting....how folks think that we have yet to be attacked as a nation from the terrorists of the world, but look at the attacks and broken down military personel , "innocents" who have been terrorized.
My god.
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NCLB is NOT about Bush, it is about the children and their future.
Do your job and do it well.
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NCLB is about an act to avoid the truth about children, BT.
Do your job well, and realize that.
You are wrong on this issue and you always will be.
I will not argue with you anymore. YOu are ignorant in this arena.
"NCLB is NOT about Bush, it is about the children and their future."
You are wrong. BUsh is about this NCLB act...along with Kennedy.
Children have a future if the system works for them. This act has only shoved testing down their throats, BT. No encouragement to do our job.
But of course, you do not know this. You are not in the classroom.
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NCLB is about an act to avoid the truth about children, BT.
And what truth is that? That they can not be educated? That the soft bigotry of low expectations is acceptable and should be embraced?
What nonsense.
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NCLB is about an act to avoid the truth about children, BT.
And what truth is that? That they can not be educated? That the soft bigotry of low expectations is acceptable and should be embraced?
What nonsense.
Your statements are nonsense, BT. You can pretend YOU KNOW on a personal level all about this argument, but you are not right. You have no idea what expectations are in the THE CLASSROOM. You have done nothing but broad stoke this issue.
You are not an educator. You will never have the authority to speak on this issue.
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Well, I'll tell you what....when he is elected, I can bet the farm that he will improve this ill called the NCLB act....because it's wrong for children.
You are betting your farm , Obama is not
The left has always been in support of children. More so than the conservative right.
Oh please!
NCLB is as perfectly bi partisan as any program could hope to be , to make a program bipartisan you have to find a common denominator, thereby casting out the "common" sense of both sides as you create the compromise.
If you believe that Conservatives hate their own children you have swallowed too much propaganda too uncritically!
Seek your inner sceptic , and get your feet on the ground , this might prevent a really big let down ifyou are still up in the air when your clowns take over from our clowns.
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Plane,
Walk into a classroom before you speak to me again.
You, as well, BT.
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Oh I forgot, the left cares more about children.
Any attempt to benchmark performance is a direct challenge to the efficiency of educators who know best.
That is why they teach to the test. It's not bureaucrats in DC gaming the system. It's principals and teachers in the trenches.
It's not their fault that they choose to do this. It's Bush's fault for daring to hold them accountable.
Educators should educate. Education should be quantifiable.
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BT, let's put it this way.....let's wait until after the election to see how Obama will change the Act for the better.
We are not going to run this through the mill with your insights here tonight or ever...no matter how much you THINK you know better.
There is a broke ACT involved here, and you still refuse to hear the truth in the matter. You are broad stoking your own idea of what it means, but you don't have the facts behind you in terms of what is happening on the front lines.
I will never respect your view on this because you lack that expertise, sorry but that's the fact.
You can swing your so called bat and hit your so called home run...but you aren't in the classroom and this argument isn't over.
I can't wait to hear what Obama has to say on the matter. Something has to give here. It's not about accountability, or children's future. It's about common sense.
OF course you don't know that, because
ONCE AGAIN
You are NOT A TEACHER.
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"Educators should educate. Education should be quantifiable"
A quote from a man who has little knowledge about the field in question. You are not a teacher, BT.
I am not a football player.
I can call the shots in any game, but I am not a player.
Stop the armchair BS.
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This isn't going to be easy , and I know nothing about his courage and fortitude.
So what you don't know disqualifies Obama from being a good president?
Not absolutely , not knowing is just not knowing , no more ,no less, than ignorance.
Aren't there a lot of things you don;t know about McCain as well?
McCain is pretty well known , I even know someone at work that used to be a sailor in his squadron, but his story of courage is very well known.
I am wondering if there was anything you didn't know about Juniorbush.
George Bush 43 turned out a lot better than I expected , I didn't like his middlefinding , compromising ,reaching -across -the -asile,middle -of-the -roadism record in Texas. Luckily indeed that he did not often find a co-operative Congress and was chased back to the right by Democrats who did not like the idea of a uniter when their ticket to power is division.
Barack Obama has only a short legislative history to examine , but he seems to have none of of the Bush problem with seeking compromise, he is a leftist to leftists.
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Quit making excuses Cynthia. If you are a teacher, teach.
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Plane,
Walk into a classroom before you speak to me again.
You, as well, BT.
This can't be demanded of the whole public and government, if only a degree in education and years of classroom experience allows one to understand what school is about , what hope do our children have?
I was an unsatisfied Public School Customer when LBJ was President and continued so untill Carter was President, how much have things deterioriated since my miserable classroom years?
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BT,
You are wrong.
I take pleasure in my truth... a truth you will never understand.
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BT, let's put it this way.....let's wait until after the election to see how Obama will change the Act for the better.
No
This is really a bad idea.
Unless a pig in a poke is a good idea.
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BT,
You are wrong.
I take pleasure in my truth... a truth you will never understand.
Then you are the perfect person to challenge Senator Obama and McCain to present their educational theroys and grade what they return.
I do hope that someone just like you gets a chance to demand that the canadates Stand and Deliver!
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Good Night Cynthia
I have enjoyed this , but I am tired and getting sloppy .
Catch you next time.
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George Bush 43 turned out a lot better than I expected
============================================
You actually expected something WORSE?
Incompetence, truculence, torture, deceit and stubbornness that would put every jackass in the country to shame.
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"BT, You are wrong. I take pleasure in my truth... a truth you will never understand"
Plane, Walk into a classroom before you speak to me again. You, as well, BT
Stop the armchair BS.
Oh ok Cynthia walk into Iraq before you speak again about the Iraq war. ::)
I will never respect your view on this because you lack that expertise, sorry but that's the fact.
Oh but you can spout about the war in Iraq without any expertise? What expertise do you have
in the area of warfare and nation building?
Or is it the typical "well I can freely expresss my views when I speak about areas I'm not an expert in, but I will condemn BT and Plane for expressing views their view in areas they dont have expertise in.
::)
Cynthia is the typical elitist card carrying union member Obama supporting liberal.
Yeah shut up BT & Plane since you are not a teacher you have no right to
complain and want change to our public schools that are producing miserable
disgraceful results.
After 8 years of Bill Clinton the US was near the botton of the world's richest countries in educational results. Ewwwww but Bil,Clinton, well, uh, um well, it's Bush's fault when he is President, well because he is "not smart", but well, uh, umm it's not President Clinton's fault when he was President well, um, well just because. ::)
Yeah yeah yeah Obama we want change!
Oh but no no no no no no no we cant change our public schools.
No we just want more money so we can produce more crappy results.
No No No No No NO CHANGE to faith based Inititiatives.
No No No No No NO CHANGE to school vouchers.
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Lookit, you fool.
The quality of public education is not attributable to any president.
You think that when Clinton is president, it's his fault, but when Juniorbush is president then it is the fault of "card carrying liberal union teachers". This is just crap. No oine believes you that actually possesses a brain.
Not you, nor the Republican Party will ever destroy the NEA or any teachers' unions. Anyone who can't work with them simply will have no results. Teachers want nothing more than for their students to learn.
Teachers will be underpaid in this country, because the culture does not respect education or learning.
Fundamentalist Bible thumpers do not belong in any classroom, and denying that evolution is the best scientific explanation simply is evidence of this anti-educational, anti-scientific bias.
Government has no reason to fund churches or any other type of religion. Churches should fund themselves.
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Lookit, you fool.
The quality of public education is not attributable to any president.
You think that when Clinton is president, it's his fault, but when Juniorbush is president then it is the fault of "card carrying liberal union teachers". This is just crap. No oine believes you that actually possesses a brain.
Not you, nor the Republican Party will ever destroy the NEA or any teachers' unions. Anyone who can't work with them simply will have no results. Teachers want nothing more than for their students to learn.
Teachers will be underpaid in this country, because the culture does not respect education or learning.
Fundamentalist Bible thumpers do not belong in any classroom, and denying that evolution is the best scientific explanation simply is evidence of this anti-educational, anti-scientific bias.
Government has no reason to fund churches or any other type of religion. Churches should fund themselves.
There is value in teaching. There is, however, a lack of value for the teacher.
Teachers will be underpaid in this country, because the culture does not respect education or learning.
I can't tell you how many times I am driving down the street and I see young men sitting low in the front seat with cap tilted backward on head, driving a Lexus!!. I wonder...hmmm, what kind of WELL PAYING JOB does THAT dude have?
THere are all kinds of young dudes like these men driving brand new cars around town, men whom you would normally see in the "hood".
Is there a tax break for me? I sure need one. I see Obama restoring fairness to the tax code. That's one step. I can't wait to see how he helps the broken education system. Bush, and any other Rep. has yet to step up to that plate with success.
Xavier, you are right on when you speak of teachers and teaching, and the point about unions.
People like BT and Plane and CU4 and others, can beat the band all day long, but they refuse to understand.
Of course they CAN'T understand. They are not in the classroom.
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Not you, nor the Republican Party will ever destroy the NEA or any teachers' unions. Anyone who can't work with them simply will have no results. Teachers want nothing more than for their students to learn.
I have no intention of breaking the teachers union. I just think they should quit making excuses and do their job.
If they are doing their job the results will be self evident.
And Cynthia i have every right to comment about the education system, not only because i am a taxpayer that funds schools but also because i am a consumer of your products.
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Not you, nor the Republican Party will ever destroy the NEA or any teachers' unions. Anyone who can't work with them simply will have no results. Teachers want nothing more than for their students to learn.
I have no intention of breaking the teachers union. I just think they should quit making excuses and do their job.
If they are doing their job the results will be self evident.
And Cynthia i have every right to comment about the education system, not only because i am a taxpayer that funds schools but also because i am a consumer of your products.
No one told you that you have no rights here, BT.
You have your opinion. ::)
i am a consumer of your products.
Yes, you are. You are also a product of the system, unless of course you attended private schools all of your young life.
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And Cynthia i have every right to comment about the education system, not only because i am a taxpayer that funds schools but also because i am a consumer of your products.
================================================
You consume the "products of teachers"? Do you mean that you eat children?
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You are also a product of the system, unless of course you attended private schools all of your young life.
That i did. Except for 4th and 5th grade.
My son attended public schools all his life.
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Is there a tax break for me? I sure need one.
If you pay taxes, you got one under Bush.
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You are also a product of the system, unless of course you attended private schools all of your young life.
That i did. Except for 4th and 5th grade.
My son attended public schools all his life.
Well, that explains a lot.
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Is there a tax break for me? I sure need one.
If you pay taxes, you got one under Bush.
Well, then I should receive and even bigger tax break under president Obama. ;)
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Is there a tax break for me? I sure need one.
If you pay taxes, you got one under Bush.
In fact, the more you payed in income taxes, the more relief you got. But let's not that bit of news spend anytime in the headlines
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Well, then I should receive and even bigger tax break under president Obama. ;)
The last time a Democratic president promised middle class tax cuts (Clinton), the taxes on the middle class went up.
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Well, then I should receive and even bigger tax break under president Obama. ;)
The last time a Democratic president promised middle class tax cuts (Clinton), the taxes on the middle class went up.
Well, we all know that Obama is NO CLINTON. ;)
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Well, that explains a lot.
What does it explain?
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Is there a tax break for me? I sure need one.
If you pay taxes, you got one under Bush.
Well, then I should receive and even bigger tax break under president Obama.
I hope you're not holding your breath
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"Lookit, you fool. The quality of public education is not attributable to any president.
You think that when Clinton is president, it's his fault, but when Juniorbush is president
then it is the fault of "card carrying liberal union teachers". This is just crap. No oine believes
you that actually possesses a brain."
Yeah sure XO I am the "fool", but obviously you cant read.
I didn't bring up a President and education, Cynthia did.
("This NCLB act is insane. it has only proven to be a political bandaid to support BUSH")
But of course when she is bashing President Bush in regard to education you say absolutely nothing.
Why? Because you are a hater of those that arrive at a different conclusion. You are an "idea fascist".
People that arrive at a different conclusion are "fools", "crap", and or "brainless".
It would be entertaining to be discussing ideas with you in person when you run out of ideas and then revert to name calling and insults. If you actually act like that in real life I bet you've had you ass beat quite a few times.
btw:
the teachers union will be destroyed and I cant wait to see it happen
eventually we will come out of the last century and the dated idea
and the miserable results that are a disgrace especially for the poor minority children
keeping the poorest in their bonds and chains perpetuating failure
it's a damn shame
one day there will be almost no public schools
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Well, that explains a lot.
What does it explain?
That you lean on your sister and your son, but you, yourself have little knowledge of what is going on within the PS system. Why? Because you lack the direct experience of being in a public school classroom as a teacher and as a student.
You will never understand the reality of what is happening. XO pointed that out, but you continue to make quips .....do your job. Oh that's real insightful ....explains a lot.
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Which of course translates into how you, Cynthia, having no direct experience with the military, or being in an active war zone, that you will "never understand the reality of what is happening"
Agreed?
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That you lean on your sister and your son, but you, yourself have little knowledge of what is going on within the PS system.
So a parent who is (or was in my case) directly involved in their childs education is not in tune with what is really going on in public education. Strange.. I thought one of your excuses was a lack of parental involvement.
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Which of course translates into how you, Cynthia, having no direct experience with the military, or being in an active war zone, that you will "never understand the reality of what is happening"
Agreed?
==================================
Why should anyone agree to this?
Everyone agree that education is a worthy objective. Literate and knowledgeable children are goals everyone can agree upon.
The Iraq War was a bad idea from the start. Iraq posed no serious threat to the people of the USA, as the lying leaders told us. Then they told us that it would all be over shortly, and instead, their incompetence and crappy intelligence turned it into a violent civil war.
We all know that this war is costing huge amounts of money, and we know that we will never see any advantage of having spent this money. It is now causing inflation of our money. The sooner it is over, the better it will be for all of us who are not members of the privileged oligarchy that is raking in billions from corruption, no bid contracts and the like.
The Iraq war was a bad idea from the very start. Think of it as like trying to make a very impressive tuxedo for a pig.
No matter how well the pig's tuxedo is tailored it will only look silly. I
No matter how well Petreaeus fights this war, it will still result in a waste of money for a really bad idea.
-
Which of course translates into how you, Cynthia, having no direct experience with the military, or being in an active war zone, that you will "never understand the reality of what is happening" Agreed?
==================================
Why should anyone agree to this?
Just trying to apply the same standard you & Cynthia seem to be applying to anyone who dares to criticize our current Public Education system, and it's leadership. No different that criticising our current Military complex and its leadership
That is, if you 2 don't want to be seen as hypocrites, in these matters. So, which is it gonna be?
-
Why should anyone agree to this?
Well, why should anyone agree with "You are not an educator. You will never have the authority to speak on this issue."?
-
George Bush 43 turned out a lot better than I expected
============================================
You actually expected something WORSE?
Incompetence, truculence, torture, deceit and stubbornness that would put every jackass in the country to shame.
Yes I didn't think he was the best choice availible at the time , but I was confident he was going to be less of an embarrasment than Clinton and more competent than Gore , that isn't asking much.
But he turned out to be much more competant and willing to work hard than I expected , his honesty was very refreshing after putting up with Clinton for eight years, his responce to 9-11 was very well done and his solution to the Saddam problem was the best possible choice.
I know you don't agree with much of that , but I am just being reality based.
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Well, why should anyone agree with "You are not an educator.
You will never have the authority to speak on this issue."?
It's goes to the core of liberalism
It's elitism
"We know whats best"
"The masses should shut the hell up and just follow our guidance"
"No you cant comment on education because you're not a teacher
but hell yes I can comment about foriegn policy with no expertise in that realm"
::)
whats scary is they really dont see their arrogance, they are oblivious
-
Most of the teachers in this land of ours know better.
It's obvious that you lack a keen sense of what is really happening to children...overkill.
Testing-overkill
So, Bush is all about Kill. . . . NCLB is all for accountability. No problem with that. However, the devil remains dressed like a pig in the details.
-
Most of the teachers in this land of ours know better.
It's obvious that you lack a keen sense of what is really happening to children...overkill.
Testing-overkill
So, Bush is all about Kill. . . . NCLB is all for accountability. No problem with that. However, the devil remains dressed like a pig in the details.
The Reason you are unable to explan this stuff to us is that we are all graduates of the Public Schools of the U.S.A.
-
d'oh
-
CU4 SEZ:
<<It goes to the core of liberalism
<<It's elitism
<<"We know whats best"
<<"The masses should shut the hell up and just follow our guidance">>
Damn liberals. Thwarting the will of the people, time and again. Bastids.
Here's an interesting poll on Iraq:
http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm
<<LA Times/Bloomberg Poll - June 19-23, 2008
<<"In your opinion, should the United States withdraw troops from Iraq right away, or should the U.S. begin bringing troops home within the next year, or should troops stay in Iraq for as long as it takes to win the war?"
<<Withdraw right away or begin within the next year - 68%
<<Stay as long as it takes - 26%>>
Now who do you think is more likely to follow the will of the people on Iraq, the God-damn elitist liberals or the "non-elitist" conservatives??
.
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Now who do you think is more likely to follow the will of the people on Iraq, the God-damn elitist liberals or the "non-elitist" conservatives??
Time will tell. the Dems have had control of the purse strings since 2006.
-
<<the Dems have had control of the purse strings since 2006.>>
Good point, but the question drew the line between conservatives and liberals, not Dems and GOPs.
-
Good point, but the question drew the line between conservatives and liberals, not Dems and GOPs.
They are synonymous.
-
Come on. Jim Webb is synonymous with Dennis K?
-
CU4 SEZ:
<<It goes to the core of liberalism
<<It's elitism
<<"We know whats best"
<<"The masses should shut the hell up and just follow our guidance">>
Damn liberals. Thwarting the will of the people, time and again. Bastids.
Here's an interesting poll on Iraq:
http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm
<<LA Times/Bloomberg Poll - June 19-23, 2008
<<"In your opinion, should the United States withdraw troops from Iraq right away, or should the U.S. begin bringing troops home within the next year, or should troops stay in Iraq for as long as it takes to win the war?"
<<Withdraw right away or begin within the next year - 68%
<<Stay as long as it takes - 26%>>
Now who do you think is more likely to follow the will of the people on Iraq, the God-damn elitist liberals or the "non-elitist" conservatives??
.
I don't know about elesewhere but American Liberals don't listen to the people very well , it took three decades of telling them that the People like haveing their second admendment rights for them to start getting the idea.
I think Barak Obama got the idea just last week.
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Do your complaints about "not listening to the people" extend to conservatives who don't listen to the people who want out of Iraq? Or is it only liberals who don't listen to the people who are bad? How about the Terry Schiavo case, where every poll indicated wide popular support for her husband's right to pull the plug, who wasn't listening to the people there?
-
It wasn't this Conservative
-
Most of the teachers in this land of ours know better.
It's obvious that you lack a keen sense of what is really happening to children...overkill.
Testing-overkill
So, Bush is all about Kill. . . . NCLB is all for accountability. No problem with that. However, the devil remains dressed like a pig in the details.
The Reason you are unable to explan this stuff to us is that we are all graduates of the Public Schools of the U.S.A.
I certainly have explained my first hand experience on this issue, Plane. The topic was never resolved because the facts and numbers brought about by members here created a side bar circus show that clouded the real issues. We are over testing over children. Period. The public schools are not providing a quality education for kids because of the NCLB act. The "push" to raise scores and provide numbers for people like you has taken away from the child, in the end. That is what I see first hand.
I can't help that you didn't get a good education in the public schools, Plane.
The bottom line is this; If Obama can fix this broken system, I'll be happy as a clam that I voted for him. If he can bring change with a logical and just assessment of the issues within the system, I am sure the children will be better off.
-
Don't be stunned by setting yourself up for a major fall, Cynthia. Obama can articulate to the point of women feinting, but has demonstrated no plan whatsoever to reform what's already been tried to be reformed countless of times. And what's worse is the liberal mindset that to "fix it" we simply need to "invest" more $$$, and keep regurgitating references to class size, when that's already been tried to the nth degree, and look what its wrought, to date
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGow8ut5_34&feature=related
This is my candidate. Sirs, you have no idea. Listen!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpRtHDYoD-o
-
My God, this man speaks the truth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsVimwm6xQ4&feature=related
Listen well. If you don't want to hear what he is saying as truth, that's your problem. He has learned more about the truth in this matter than any member here, (senior, hero or administrator) with the exception of XO.
Cynthia
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Reform (http://www.barackobama.com/issues/education/)
Reform No Child Left Behind: Obama will reform NCLB, which starts by funding the law. Obama believes teachers should not be forced to spend the academic year preparing students to fill in bubbles on standardized tests. He will improve the assessments used to track student progress to measure readiness for college and the workplace and improve student learning in a timely, individualized manner. Obama will also improve NCLB's accountability system so that we are supporting schools that need improvement, rather than punishing them.
Make Math and Science Education a National Priority: Obama will recruit math and science degree graduates to the teaching profession and will support efforts to help these teachers learn from professionals in the field. He will also work to ensure that all children have access to a strong science curriculum at all grade levels.
Address the Dropout Crisis: Obama will address the dropout crisis by passing his legislation to provide funding to school districts to invest in intervention strategies in middle school - strategies such as personal academic plans, teaching teams, parent involvement, mentoring, intensive reading and math instruction, and extended learning time.
Expand High-Quality Afterschool Opportunities: Obama will double funding for the main federal support for afterschool programs, the 21st Century Learning Centers program, to serve one million more children.
Expand Summer Learning Opportunities: Obama's "STEP UP" plan addresses the achievement gap by supporting summer learning opportunities for disadvantaged children through partnerships between local schools and community organizations.
Support College Outreach Programs: Obama supports outreach programs like GEAR UP, TRIO and Upward Bound to encourage more young people from low-income families to consider and prepare for college.
Support English Language Learners: Obama supports transitional bilingual education and will help Limited English Proficient students get ahead by holding schools accountable for making sure these students complete school.
Recruit, Prepare, Retain, and Reward America's Teachers
Recruit Teachers: Obama will create new Teacher Service Scholarships that will cover four years of undergraduate or two years of graduate teacher education, including high-quality alternative programs for mid-career recruits in exchange for teaching for at least four years in a high-need field or location.
Prepare Teachers: Obama will require all schools of education to be accredited. He will also create a voluntary national performance assessment so we can be sure that every new educator is trained and ready to walk into the classroom and start teaching effectively. Obama will also create Teacher Residency Programs that will supply 30,000 exceptionally well-prepared recruits to high-need schools.
Retain Teachers: To support our teachers, Obama's plan will expand mentoring programs that pair experienced teachers with new recruits. He will also provide incentives to give teachers paid common planning time so they can collaborate to share best practices.
Reward Teachers: Obama will promote new and innovative ways to increase teacher pay that are developed with teachers, not imposed on them. Districts will be able to design programs that reward accomplished educators who serve as a mentor to new teachers with a salary increase. Districts can reward teachers who work in underserved places like rural areas and inner cities. And if teachers consistently excel in the classroom, that work can be valued and rewarded as well.
-
Obama will create new Teacher Service Scholarships that will cover four years of undergraduate or two years of graduate teacher education, including high-quality alternative programs for mid-career recruits in exchange for teaching for at least four years in a high-need field or location.
[][][][][][][][][][]
This doesn't sound like a good idea , why not have people who are already engineers or historians or palientologists teach without requireing a further degree?
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Don't be stunned by setting yourself up for a major fall, Cynthia. Obama can articulate to the point of women feinting, but has demonstrated no plan whatsoever to reform what's already been tried to be reformed countless of times. And what's worse is the liberal mindset that to "fix it" we simply need to "invest" more $$$, and keep regurgitating references to class size, when that's already been tried to the nth degree, and look what its wrought, to date
=========================
Smaller class size has shown to benefit students nearly every time it has been tried.
Obama can't demonstrate anything until he is in office and has the power to put a plan in effect.
Compare what other, more successful countries do to improve education in percentage of the GDP and you will see that more money actually helps.
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This doesn't sound like a good idea , why not have people who are already engineers or historians or palientologists teach without requireing a further degree?
========================================
It is certainly necessary to know how to read to be a reading teacher.
You should know how to play the piano to teach piano-playing, but a knowledge of how to read music is pretty much indispensable to being a good piano teacher.
You need to know how to speak English to be an English teacher. You don;t need to be literate to speak English, but unless you are literate, you will find teaching English to be as complicated and time-consuming a task as your students will find it complicated and time-consuming to learn.
===================================================
However, it is one thing to know how to do something and quite another to know how to teach it effectively. Teaching is in itself an art and a science. There are methods of teaching every subject effectively so that students will remember how to learn the subject effectively, and simply knowing the subject is not enough.
There are a very few people who are good at teaching what they know to others, but even they can be far better if they learn effective techniques from professional teachers of the subject in question.
In universities, professors are supposed to have absorbed teaching techniques from those who have taught them, but this is not really as effective as it could be. Mathematics is a field where teaching methodology is extremely useful.
Einstein and John Forbes Nash were excellent mathematicians, but were generally considered to be terrible at instructing undergraduates in the basics of their subjects, for example.
Might I add that whoever attempted to teach you to spell was singularly deficient in teaching how to spell the English language?
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This doesn't sound like a good idea , why not have people who are already engineers or historians or palientologists teach without requireing a further degree?
========================================
It is certainly necessary to know how to read to be a reading teacher.
You should know how to play the piano to teach piano-playing, but a knowledge of how to read music is pretty much indispensable to being a good piano teacher.
You need to know how to speak English to be an English teacher. You don;t need to be literate to speak English, but unless you are literate, you will find teaching English to be as complicated and time-consuming a task as your students will find it complicated and time-consuming to learn.
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However, it is one thing to know how to do something and quite another to know how to teach it effectively. Teaching is in itself an art and a science. There are methods of teaching every subject effectively so that students will remember how to learn the subject effectively, and simply knowing the subject is not enough.
There are a very few people who are good at teaching what they know to others, but even they can be far better if they learn effective techniques from professional teachers of the subject in question.
In universities, professors are supposed to have absorbed teaching techniques from those who have taught them, but this is not really as effective as it could be. Mathematics is a field where teaching methodology is extremely useful.
Einstein and John Forbes Nash were excellent mathematicians, but were generally considered to be terrible at instructing undergraduates in the basics of their subjects, for example.
Might I add that whoever attempted to teach you to spell was singularly deficient in teaching how to spell the English language?
Teaching is in itself an art and a science.
Exactly. Teaching requires knowledge of the individual client; (the student) and how he or she learns best. Teaching requires an understanding of the art of facilitation. Teaching requires understanding of how the brain learns. There's a great book on the topic; How The Brian Works by Leslie A. Hart.
There's so much more to teaching than being skilled or trained in one particular subject area, like math, science, or even reading. Skilled musicians often have a difficult time teaching, as the performance gets in the way of the process.
Process is just as important as the final product.
Mathematics is a field where teaching methodology is extremely useful.
And even that methodology is changing. I enjoy teaching using this method. Educating takes on a whole new meaning with this form of math instruction.
http://mathforum.org/mathed/constructivism.html
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Don't be stunned by setting yourself up for a major fall, Cynthia. Obama can articulate to the point of women feinting, but has demonstrated no plan whatsoever to reform what's already been tried to be reformed countless of times. And what's worse is the liberal mindset that to "fix it" we simply need to "invest" more $$$, and keep regurgitating references to class size, when that's already been tried to the nth degree, and look what its wrought, to date
This is my candidate. Sirs, you have no idea. Listen!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGow8ut5_34&feature=related
Yea, he "sounds" good. He always has, that's his strength. His weakness is in how he'd go about implimenting and paying for his ideals, coupled by his piss poor judgement & naivete with policy
Smaller class size has shown to benefit students nearly every time it has been tried.
So, why not class sizes of 1:1 for optimal benefit?? Point being spouting it as if it's not already being tried, and claiming we need more $$$ for it to happen, HAS been tried. We spend.... upwards of $12,000+ per pupil in some states, spending more as a % of its GNP, compared to other places like Japan who routinely beat our kids in testing, and the left says we still need more to "invest in the children"
Obama can't demonstrate anything until he is in office and has the power to put a plan in effect.
He can demonstrate HOW it's to work, and HOW's to be payed for. That's what he can do right NOW
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His weakness is in how he'd go about implimenting and paying for his ideals, coupled by his piss poor judgement & naivete with policy
This sounds much more like Bush to me, Sirs.
AT least Obama is listening to the teachers of America, with common sense.
He's already a far better leader in my opinion, and I voted for BUSH!!!
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So, why not class sizes of 1:1 for optimal benefit??
Homeschool?
Why not?
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His weakness is in how he'd go about implimenting and paying for his ideals, coupled by his piss poor judgement & naivete with policy
This sounds much more like Bush to me, Sirs.
Naaa......sounds much more like no-preconditions Obama
AT least Obama is listening to the teachers of America, with common sense.
You mean he's listening to the Teacher's Unions of America, with open pockets
He's already a far better leader in my opinion, and I voted for BUSH!!!
Given his track record in judgement, and anemic amount of leadership experience, I would beg to differ. Especially in what direction, he'd want to take this country
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All I gotta say is that I know Obama's claim is full of crap. It starts off with "begin by funding the mandate" - which is a claim straight out of left's playbook. Fact is, NCLB is funded. You can go to the CBO's website and download the budget figures and find the funding listed there for it, and for previous years see the actual amount spent.
Anybody who makes a claim that stupid is full of crap.
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I think the term "funding the mandate" is supposed to be analgus to "investing in our children". I mean, who would be against such a noble desire?
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Obama believes teachers should not be forced to spend the academic year preparing students to fill in bubbles on standardized tests.
NCLB does not require teachers to teach to the test. That's a choice made by the teachers.
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All I gotta say is that I know Obama's claim is full of crap. It starts off with "begin by funding the mandate" - which is a claim straight out of left's playbook. Fact is, NCLB is funded. You can go to the CBO's website and download the budget figures and find the funding listed there for it, and for previous years see the actual amount spent.
Anybody who makes a claim that stupid is full of crap.
With all due respect, Ami, I really do not believe that this man is full of crap, Ami. I am going to give him a chance. He speaks for teachers and for students. Period. He has a clear understanding of what is broken.
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His weakness is in how he'd go about implimenting and paying for his ideals, coupled by his piss poor judgement & naivete with policy
This sounds much more like Bush to me, Sirs.
Naaa......sounds much more like no-preconditions Obama
AT least Obama is listening to the teachers of America, with common sense.
You mean he's listening to the Teacher's Unions of America, with open pockets
He's already a far better leader in my opinion, and I voted for BUSH!!!
Given his track record in judgement, and anemic amount of leadership experience, I would beg to differ. Especially in what direction, he'd want to take this country
I'll take Obama's track record any day over the broken track record of Bush.
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His track record is hard left, outside of his recent effort to placate the middle on Faith Based initiatives. Outside of that his record is about as hard core liberal as one can get. Bush, at least TRIED to compromise with Democrats, and often did on some of their pet issues.....EDUCATION for instance. Obama has no such record to hang his nonexistant leadership hat on
And News Flash Cynthia, Bush isn't running this election, and McCain is not Bush
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Obama believes teachers should not be forced to spend the academic year preparing students to fill in bubbles on standardized tests.
NCLB does not require teachers to teach to the test. That's a choice made by the teachers.
::)
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Bush, at least TRIED to compromise with Democrats, and often did on some of their pet issues.....EDUCATION for instance. Obama has no such record to hang his nonexistant leadership hat on
And News Flash Cynthia, Bush isn't running this election, and McCain is not Bush.
I never said Bush was running anything. He's going to have to look back and come to grips with what he has done to many in this world during his two terms in office. And it has not all been a bed of roses. Obama is a wonderful man. I have more faith in him than in Bush, anyday. He will at least listen to others. Bush wasn't about to do squat for people unless it was fed by the conservative stream of thought.
I welcome someone who is far left, after all is said and done. I can't wait.
Bush TRIED? Oh yea, sure just like he TRIED to make the American people understand that the war in Iraq wasn't going to last very long.
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Obama believes teachers should not be forced to spend the academic year preparing students to fill in bubbles on standardized tests.
NCLB does not require teachers to teach to the test. That's a choice made by the teachers.
::)
Perhaps you can quote the portion of the law that requires teachers to teach to the test.
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Obama believes teachers should not be forced to spend the academic year preparing students to fill in bubbles on standardized tests.
NCLB does not require teachers to teach to the test. That's a choice made by the teachers.
::)
Perhaps you can quote the portion of the law that requires teachers to teach to the test.
Bt,
Perhaps YOU should visit classrooms before I even talk to you about this issue again. You refuse to listen to the people!
You would make a terrible politician.
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Bush TRIED? Oh yea, sure just like he TRIED to make the American people understand that the war in Iraq wasn't going to last very long.
No , from the first Bush said the fight would be long and hard.
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He has a clear understanding of what is broken.
How does someone with "a clear understanding of what is broken" call a funded program "unfunded"? Sounds like he doesn't understand it to me.
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You would make a terrible politician.
ROFL
When do you come up re-election, BT?
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2009
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Obama believes teachers should not be forced to spend the academic year preparing students to fill in bubbles on standardized tests.
NCLB does not require teachers to teach to the test. That's a choice made by the teachers.
::)
Perhaps you can quote the portion of the law that requires teachers to teach to the test.
Bt,
Perhaps YOU should visit classrooms before I even talk to you about this issue again. You refuse to listen to the people!
You would make a terrible politician.
That isn't practical for me , can't you just tell us why it is that NCLB forces teaching to the test and not mastery of the subject?
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Bt,
Perhaps YOU should visit classrooms before I even talk to you about this issue again. You refuse to listen to the people!
You would make a terrible politician.
Obama made the claim. You have made the claim. Perhaps you can educate us as to the portion of the bill that backs this claim. Can you do that?
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Bush did NOT say that the war would be swift? Ok---- INSTEAD ! He told the U.S. Military that because of their actions; ?The tyrant has fallen, and Iraq is free? in 2003!
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/05/01/sprj.irq.bush.speech/index.html
Standing on the giant flight deck, with a banner reading "Mission Accomplished" overhead on the bridge, the commander-in-chief saluted the men and women of the U.S. military.
"Because of you, our nation is more secure. Because of you, the tyrant has fallen, and Iraq is free," was his message. "America is grateful for a job well done."
"With new tactics and precision weapons, we can achieve military objectives without directing violence against civilians. No device of man can remove the tragedy from war. Yet it is a great advance when the guilty have far more to fear from war than the innocent."
"The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September 11th, 2001, and still goes on."
Bush said that in the 19 months since the attacks on New York, Washington and Pennsylvania, "nearly half of al Qaeda's senior operatives have been captured or killed."
He also said removing Saddam from power would make other nations less vulnerable to terrorist attacks.
"We have removed an ally of al Qaeda, and cut off a source of terrorist funding. And this much is certain: No terrorist network will gain weapons of mass destruction from the Iraqi regime, because that regime is no more."
Victory and Geneva Conventions:
"Bush did not formally declare the war in Iraq to be over.
There are several reasons, highlighted by aides and scholars. For one, although major combat is over, skirmishes in Iraq continue as exemplified by deadly exchanges in the city of Fallujah between protesters and U.S. soldiers. Also, although Saddam Hussein's regime was toppled, the former Iraqi president and members of his inner circle, including his two sons, remain unaccounted for.
Scholars familiar with laws governing war say that a formal declaration of victory would complicate efforts by coalition forces to track down the former members of Saddam's regime.
"If we say the war is over, it makes it more difficult to pursue these individuals," said Anthony Clark Arend, professor of government and foreign service at Georgetown University. He has written a book on international law and the use of force.
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Bt,
Perhaps YOU should visit classrooms before I even talk to you about this issue again. You refuse to listen to the people!
You would make a terrible politician.
Obama made the claim. You have made the claim. Perhaps you can educate us as to the portion of the bill that backs this claim. Can you do that?
Can you prove to me that the our claim is NOT true?
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Can you prove to me that the our claim is NOT true?
There is nothing in the bill that mandates "teaching to the test".
I can't show it to you because it does not exist. You, however, claim that it does. Therefore, the burden of proof falls on you, since you made the positive claim.
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Obama believes teachers should not be forced to spend the academic year preparing students to fill in bubbles on standardized tests.
NCLB does not require teachers to teach to the test. That's a choice made by the teachers.
::)
Perhaps you can quote the portion of the law that requires teachers to teach to the test.
Bt,
Perhaps YOU should visit classrooms before I even talk to you about this issue again. You refuse to listen to the people!
You would make a terrible politician.
That isn't practical for me , can't you just tell us why it is that NCLB forces teaching to the test and not mastery of the subject?
The fact that teachers and students are overly tested. The fact that results of those scores equate to high stakes that can sometimes equate to loss of jobs, not to mention stressed out children and teachers, with no support to improve FOR THE SAKE OF THE NCLB act.... is yes, a direct outcome of the NCLB bill. And yes, we have gone over this before. IT DOES NOT STATE THIS IN THE ACT ITSELF. But, something has to be changed. The outcomes are clearly crazy making and unfair. I can't wait to see how Obama makes such changes a reality. I don't know what he is going to do, yet. I will get that news when it comes and be back to report. ;)
If a particular school does not fare well on certain tests, then the entire school is punished, unfairly. It's one thing to assist in support children and help teachers keep up to date and current. It's clearly another to mandate that the outcome of said tests hit a particular point or else the system is punished. . . Not meeting AYP, being put on probation...R1 RESTRICTION 1 etc. My god, the punishment itself is enough to make any system cheat! That's not what we do, and I hope to God that schools are not doing that, but if the leadership in ps systems are under a gun, consequently pushing their teachers to the point of panic, I would venture to guess that some teachers will probabnly teach to the test in order to keep from all of the stresses involved. Texas schools even went a step further and CHEATED in order to make the NCBL act work...FOR THEIR BUSH!
Of course, we don't teach the test, but we are restricted to teach exactly what is on the test. Period. Thus our kids are not receiving a decent well rounded education. We are forced to teach through scripted programs, etc.
Reading first schools, especially.
Previous to this NCLB law, (under Reagan's A Nation at Risk era) we were successful in providing children with a well rounded education. All subjects were taught. Now, only the three basic elements RRWR Come on! Would you like to send your child to a school that does not teach art, music, science and social studies?
If we teach all of those subjects, we lose time to teach the areas that are tested in order to BRING UP TEST SCORES....which is IN ORDER TO SATISFY the NCLB act, ultimately. Testing is nothing new. Accountability is nothing new. In fact, tests and assessments continue to "drive our instruction", if you will.
There were no punitive actions attached in those days, however.
Ok, sure, there are no punitive mandates stated in the NCLB, but it is implied that systems had better find a way to DO WHATEVER it takes to improve failing schools but at what cost?
Currently, all schools are judged according to the test scores, and yet there is little support for families who live in low economic areas. There is little support for the schools themselves. Instead there are pressures that do no one any good.
In the wealthier areas of our school district, for example,children fare better on tests, and are rewared accordingly. Not so for all children. Yet they are given the same criteria with no promises of more funding. IT takes money to teach.
The argument I stand for is change in the system. IF obama can find a way to make crucial changes within the act itself, to reduce the unnecessary stresses that are riping this educational system apart, good for him.
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Bush, at least TRIED to compromise with Democrats, and often did on some of their pet issues.....EDUCATION for instance. Obama has no such record to hang his nonexistant leadership hat on And News Flash Cynthia, Bush isn't running this election, and McCain is not Bush.
I never said Bush was running anything.
Yet you comparing Obama to Bush, as if that's who Obama is running against
He's going to have to look back and come to grips with what he has done to many in this world during his two terms in office.
Democracy now taking root in Iraq, its dictator removed, increased revenues into the Fed, increased credibility in American Foreign Policy, tax relief to everyone who payed income taxes. I don't think he's gonna lose alot of sleep over it personally Cynthia, though I'm sure he's kicking himself for believing nearly every single intelligence's conclusions of Saddam's WMD disposition. I'm sure he also is kicking himself and his military staff for not having better contingency plans, immediately ready to impliment. He's probably also kicking himself for not pushing his party when they were in the majority, to get pass new energy policies, that would have short circuited what's happening to the prioce of gas currently. But all in all, not bad. Not good, but not bad, when taken in its totality.
Obama is a wonderful man.
I don't doubt that. Hard core liberal perhaps, but probably a nice guy. That is however NOT a requirement for being President of the U.S.
I have more faith in him than in Bush, anyday. He will at least listen to others. Bush wasn't about to do squat for people unless it was fed by the conservative stream of thought.
Ok, now you're just getting ridiculus. A) anyone can listen, B) Bush did try to and DID push actions very much AGAINST conservative "stream of thought", C) Obama has done SQUAT in that regards.
I welcome someone who is far left, after all is said and done. I can't wait.
Not in my country. This isn't going to be a Socialist state, and it's one of the chief reasons why you'll never see (as Tee was decrying) the Dems growing any &@%%# because if they ever ran on a Far Left Ideoligical platform, they'd never see the light of day, from the electorate.
Bush TRIED? Oh yea, sure just like he TRIED to make the American people understand that the war in Iraq wasn't going to last very long.
He tried, and did convince those who weren't already either close minded or infected with BDS. I knew it was going to take a long time. You need to refresh those DNC talking points, Cynthia
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Bt,
Perhaps YOU should visit classrooms before I even talk to you about this issue again. You refuse to listen to the people!
Obama made the claim. You have made the claim. Perhaps you can educate us as to the portion of the bill that backs this claim. Can you do that?
Can you prove to me that the our claim is NOT true?
Prove a negative?? And you're a teacher?
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Prove to me then that the system if not broken.
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Bush, at least TRIED to compromise with Democrats, and often did on some of their pet issues.....EDUCATION for instance. Obama has no such record to hang his nonexistant leadership hat on And News Flash Cynthia, Bush isn't running this election, and McCain is not Bush.
I never said Bush was running anything.
Yet you comparing Obama to Bush, as if that's who Obama is running against
He's going to have to look back and come to grips with what he has done to many in this world during his two terms in office.
Democracy now taking root in Iraq, its dictator removed, increased revenues into the Fed, increased credibility in American Foreign Policy, tax relief to everyone who payed income taxes. I don't think he's gonna lose alot of sleep over it personally Cynthia, though I'm sure he's kicking himself for believing nearly every single intelligence's conclusions of Saddam's WMD disposition. I'm sure he also is kicking himself and his military staff for not having better contingency plans, immediately ready to impliment. He's probably also kicking himself for not pushing his party when they were in the majority, to get pass new energy policies, that would have short circuited what's happening to the prioce of gas currently. But all in all, not bad. Not good, but not bad, when taken in its totality.
Obama is a wonderful man.
I don't doubt that. Hard core liberal perhaps, but probably a nice guy. That is however NOT a requirement for being President of the U.S.
I have more faith in him than in Bush, anyday. He will at least listen to others. Bush wasn't about to do squat for people unless it was fed by the conservative stream of thought.
Ok, now you're just getting ridiculus. A) anyone can listen, B) Bush did try to and DID push actions very much AGAINST conservative "stream of thought", C) Obama has done SQUAT in that regards.
I welcome someone who is far left, after all is said and done. I can't wait.
Not in my country. This isn't going to be a Socialist state, and it's one of the chief reasons why you'll never see (as Tee was decrying) the Dems growing any &@%%# because if they ever ran on a Far Left Ideoligical platform, they'd never see the light of day, from the electorate.
Bush TRIED? Oh yea, sure just like he TRIED to make the American people understand that the war in Iraq wasn't going to last very long.
He tried, and did convince those who weren't already either close minded or infected with BDS. I knew it was going to take a long time. You need to refresh those DNC talking points, Cynthia
You appear to have a real disdain for liberals, Sirs.
Why?
That is however NOT a requirement for being President of the U.S.
Bush was a nice guy. Look what he has done for the world.
What will it take for you to see that Bush was not even a good president, let alone a great one?
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He has a clear understanding of what is broken.
How does someone with "a clear understanding of what is broken" call a funded program "unfunded"? Sounds like he doesn't understand it to me.
The system is underfunded, Ami.
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You would make a terrible politician.
ROFL
When do you come up re-election, BT?
Well, we better look out then in 2009! ;D
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You appear to have a real disdain for liberals, Sirs. Why?
Because your premise is flawed. My disdain is for Liberalism.....NOT Liberals
Bush was a nice guy. Look what he has done for the world. What will it take for you to see that Bush was not even a good president, let alone a great one?
I suppose I can flip that 180.....What will it take for you to see that Bush was a good president?? Hmmmmmmmmm? And no one I'm aware of is claiming he's "great".
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Prove to me then that the system if not broken.
Again, you're the one making the positive claim, you need to provide the proof.
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While these numbers are not without flaws, their similarity reveals a concerning fact: Despite the funding increases brought about under NCLB, there are still millions of low income children that are underserved by the very program designed to ensure they were not "left behind."
http://www.newamerica.net/programs/education_policy/federal_education_budget_project/nclb/numbers
and there's even a disclosure within; not without flaw!
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Of course, we don't teach the test, but we are restricted to teach exactly what is on the test. Period. Thus our kids are not receiving a decent well rounded education. We are forced to teach through scripted programs, etc.
There is nothing in the bill requiring scripted programs, either.
Ok, sure, there are no punitive mandates stated in the NCLB, but it is implied that systems had better find a way to DO WHATEVER it takes to improve failing schools but at what cost?
Not only are there no punitive mandates, if a school does not meet it's AYP, it gets more money. My, that's a terrible punishment.
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http://www.newamerica.net/education_budget_project/#
If you look at the % of 4th graders who read at the national standard across the states on this map, you will see that most are below 50%.
That is one telling point that reminds me WE NEED MORE FUNDING!
Mass. 44%. Wow.
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The system is underfunded, Ami.
"Underfunded" is not "unfunded".
And the system is not "underfunded".
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Of course, we don't teach the test, but we are restricted to teach exactly what is on the test. Period. Thus our kids are not receiving a decent well rounded education. We are forced to teach through scripted programs, etc.
There is nothing in the bill requiring scripted programs, either.
Ok, sure, there are no punitive mandates stated in the NCLB, but it is implied that systems had better find a way to DO WHATEVER it takes to improve failing schools but at what cost?
Not only are there no punitive mandates, if a school does not meet it's AYP, it gets more money. My, that's a terrible punishment.
WEll, Ami, apparently that's not enough to help the children, is it?
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While these numbers are not without flaws, their similarity reveals a concerning fact: Despite the funding increases brought about under NCLB, there are still millions of low income children that are underserved by the very program designed to ensure they were not "left behind."
Those figures are bogus. They're taking only the money for NCLB and using that to "prove" that there is not enough money for all students. They need to use the total funding figures in that calculation, not the "bonus" money that is supposed to only be allocated to schools that need it under NCLB, if they're going to use the total students number.
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WEll, Ami, apparently that's not enough to help the children, is it?
How much is needed per student to be "enough"?
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Bush did NOT say that the war would be swift? Ok---- INSTEAD ! He told the U.S. Military that because of their actions; ?The tyrant has fallen, and Iraq is free? in 2003!
Free yes , peacefull no.
Kinda like Los Angles.
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Well, we better look out then in 2009! {/quote]
No need to worry, remember, I'm not a teacher.
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http://www.newamerica.net/education_budget_project/#
If you look at the % of 4th graders who read at the national standard across the states on this map, you will see that most are below 50%.
That is one telling point that reminds me WE NEED MORE FUNDING!
Mass. 44%. Wow.
How do we know these figures?
Were the kids tested or something?
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WEll, Ami, apparently that's not enough to help the children, is it?
How much is needed per student to be "enough"?
You know, Ami, the bigger issue here for me, is how the kids are subject to being over"kill" tested, and stressed out all because the gov. does not want to leave them behind. That's something I can comment from first hand experience. I believe that Obama will do more for education than Bush ever did. That's my bottom line. I can and will continue to google articles, facts and figures. But, the reality is there. Kids are not getting what they deserve and it is not the teacher's fault.
The children ARE OVER TESTED. The pressures to teach to the test are a reality, no matter how much you and BT and Sirs want to say that isn't true. It is.
The act, the reaction to the act, the states fault, the teachers' fault--- you all can speculate until the moos come home, but there are problems within and I see it every day. Numbers can come in handy for any argument, but there is an ugly element that continues to be a reality becasue of the way the current act is set up.
You can laugh at the situation and bring in personal hits...like Sirs, against me. That's ok. I am not going to let those insults change my truth. I have taught too long and I know that there is a problem here. I have explained it. I am not Obama, so I can't prove what he is going to do or not. He is obvisously better qualified for office than you or bt.... 8)
and Mr. Sirs ;D
Like I said, whatever Obama can do to help this situation will be better than the current administration.
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Well, we better look out then in 2009! {/quote]
No need to worry, remember, I'm not a teacher.
Ha. That's for sure.
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Ha. That's for sure.
Which means i am far less likely to cause harm.
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Ha. That's for sure.
Which means i am far less likely to cause harm.
It means that and more, BT.
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The children ARE OVER TESTED.
I don't see how one assessment test per year is "over tested".
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To wrap up this issue for a while, anyway; one can only hope that politicians in this nation are as gifted with Obama's intelligence and compassion.
I see it now, There's more to the story than a strong arm. It's time for a strong mind.
Rare today. . .especially in the world of politics.
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The teachers complaints about NCLB are not about the children.
The children aren't stressed out about testing, the teachers are.
The children have no clue about funding, the teachers are the ones who want more money.
The problem with schools is illustrated beautifully by this thread.
Claims are made, claims are challenged, no documentation is provided.
NCLB is blamed for curriculum, which the states provide, overtesting with no explaination of comparative testing frequency pre and post NCLB and forcing teachers to teach to the test, with no explanation as to what provision of the NCLB would suggest this.
In other words we have parroted dogma without the corresponding critical thinking required for a free and prosperous society.
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...You can laugh at the situation and bring in personal hits...like Sirs, against me. That's ok....
What's not ok is that a) I'm not laughing, and b) what "personal hit"?? You refering to your demand that ami prove a negative, and my questioning of that??
Like I said, whatever Obama can do to help this situation will be better than the current administration.
Actually, he could makes things exponentially worse, by placating the unions and liberal base by simply citing we need to "invest more for the children"...code word: increased taxes, which would already lead a shaky economy into quite the economic black hole, with increasing unemployment, increasing uninsured, and potential Inflation explosion. See Jmmy Carter for the last time the Liberal left went on a spree. And all the while accountability and improvement in our children's education, remains in its pervasive downward slide........citing of course the need to "invest more for our children
You don't see the viscious circle with the liberal mindset on this, Cynthia? Your hatred of Bush that great you can't see straight on an issue so important and so intimate with your current occupation?
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This is an opinion of someone who is not a teacher, nor a decent politician.
You were wrong before, BT, and you are wrong now.
But to the degree we can meet in the middle has yet to be seen.
Obama is the best candidate. Bush was worthless.
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...You can laugh at the situation and bring in personal hits...like Sirs, against me. That's ok....
What's not ok is that a) I'm not laughing, and b) what "personal hit"?? You refering to your demand that ami prove a negative, and my questioning of that??
Like I said, whatever Obama can do to help this situation will be better than the current administration.
Actually, he could makes things exponentially worse, by placating the unions and liberal base by simply citing we need to "invest more for the children"...code word: increased taxes, which would already lead a shaky economy into quite the economic black hole, with increasing unemployment, increasing uninsured, and potential Inflation explosion. See Jmmy Carter for the last time the Liberal left went on a spree. And all the while accountability and improvement in our children's education, remains in its pervasive downward slide........citing of course the need to "invest more for our children
You don't see the viscious circle with the liberal mindset on this, Cynthia? Your hatred of Bush that great you can't see straight on an issue so important and so initmate with your current occupation?
I don't have hatred for Bush. I voted for him.
I have disappointment!
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Your "disappointment" has manifested into pretty transparent hatred, Cynthia. And IMHO, its apparently really screwing with your ability to be objective, on a whole host of issues. Just though I'd let you know
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This is an opinion of someone who is not a teacher, nor a decent politician.
You were wrong before, BT, and you are wrong now.
But to the degree we can meet in the middle has yet to be seen.
Obama is the best candidate. Bush was worthless.
I'm supposed to accept this evaluation because you are a teacher?
Are you a parent?
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This is an opinion of someone who is not a teacher, nor a decent politician.
You were wrong before, BT, and you are wrong now.
But to the degree we can meet in the middle has yet to be seen.
Obama is the best candidate. Bush was worthless.
I'm supposed to accept this evaluation because you are a teacher?
Are you a parent?
Obama is the best candidate.
You are to accept this evaluation BECAUSE I know what is really happening, BT. You do not.
Having no children really does not matter in this discussion. No, I was not able to have children.
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Your "disappointment" has manifested into pretty transparent hatred, Cynthia. And IMHO, its apparently really screwing with your ability to be objective, on a whole host of issues. Just though I'd let you know
Oy ::)
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You are to accept this evaluation BECAUSE I know what is really happening, BT
Do you?
Why would you say students are over tested when they are tested because of the NCLB one time a year?
Why would you say the NCLB is the reason teachers teach to the test, when the NCLB has no such requirements?
Why would you say schools are punished for poor performance when the facts show poorly performing schools are given more funding?
Why should your evaluation be accepted when you misstate so many facts?
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I do. This is getting to be a contest between your lack of knowledge of the situation and the your need to argue.
The act has attempted to heal the system that is the DOE.
The act has missed the mark.
I see it.
You don't. The children are tested more than necessary. I see it. You don't.
End of discussion.
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The children are tested more than necessary. I see it. You don't.
Once a year is too often? What's the "right" amount? One test every 5 years? One test during their entire 12 years?
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The children are tested more than necessary. I see it. You don't.
Once a year is too often? What's the "right" amount? One test every 5 years? One test during their entire 12 years?
Testing has taken the front seat to the point where we are not only assessing weekly, but daily, Ami. Teachers are subjected to collecting data on every single vowel or mathematical digit each and every week. Then there are the montly tests. THen there are the standardized tests, the district tests. We must schedule in time for assessment more so than for the subjects of writing, science and social studies.
All well and fine if the goal of the school is to bring up scores for a purpose...and to bring up such scores for only these two subject areas; reading and math.
But kids lose out on so much. No time for the other areas of education.
and why?
NCLB act.
Fine act, indeed, but it is severly broken. You will hear back from me on this issue after the election and after the act has been changed to support all involved...not just the government.
I blame the Rep. on this one. They hate the NEA.
Talk about your HATE.
That's a shame.
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Testing has taken the front seat to the point where we are not only assessing weekly, but daily, Ami. Teachers are subjected to collecting data on every single vowel or mathematical digit each and every week. Then there are the montly tests. THen there are the standardized tests, the district tests. We must schedule in time for assessment more so than for the subjects of writing, science and social studies.
NCLB mandates testing once a year. Any additional testing is not due to NCLB.
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Testing has taken the front seat to the point where we are not only assessing weekly, but daily, Ami. Teachers are subjected to collecting data on every single vowel or mathematical digit each and every week. Then there are the montly tests. THen there are the standardized tests, the district tests. We must schedule in time for assessment more so than for the subjects of writing, science and social studies.
NCLB mandates testing once a year. Any additional testing is not due to NCLB.
Well, then there is a severe miscommunication between what you HAVE googled and the truth.
again, you claim to know, based on your one time shot on this Ami, but you are not living in my world.
The NCLB act is in need of some serious changes. The video that I posted with Obama's complete and honorable knowledge on the subject speaks volumns.
Even McCain has admitted the act is in need of change.
There are issues that are obviously there in my world....in the classroom, and yes, they stem from teh NCLB act.
You can stand on that platform all you want, You will provide all the so called evidence you want...and there will also be counter evidence that proves otherwise. You and BT are not in the business or world of a high profiled and skilled politician nor are you anywhere near the classroom on the ground floor. Somehow the link between what the NCLB requires and what is happening on the ground does not match up.
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This is getting to be a contest between your lack of knowledge of the situation and the your need to argue.
This is a contest between fact and biased opinion.
The real complaint is that at least one test a year tests teachers as well as students.
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Well, then there is a severe miscommunication between what you HAVE googled and the truth.
again, you claim to know, based on your one time shot on this Ami, but you are not living in my world.
I claim to know based on having read the act. Have you done so yet?
The video that I posted with Obama's complete and honorable knowledge on the subject speaks volumns.
His "honorable knowledge" apparently does not always jive with reality. Calling it "unfunded" was but one of his untruths.
Even McCain has admitted the act is in need of change.
I never said it was perfect, or couldn't be improved. But Obama's and your claims are far from truth.
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You and BT are not in the business of politicians or educators.
BT is a politician. He's up for re-election in 2009. Did you miss that part of the discussion? Regardless, I think he's not gonna count on the Albuquerque vote.
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Well, then there is a severe miscommunication between what you HAVE googled and the truth.
again, you claim to know, based on your one time shot on this Ami, but you are not living in my world.
I claim to know based on having read the act. Have you done so yet?
The video that I posted with Obama's complete and honorable knowledge on the subject speaks volumns.
His "honorable knowledge" apparently does not always jive with reality. Calling it "unfunded" was but one of his untruths.
Even McCain has admitted the act is in need of change.
I never said it was perfect, or couldn't be improved. But Obama's and your claims are far from truth.
Obama has read the act and he has found the loopholes that you have not found. That's reality, Ami.
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You and BT are not in the business of politicians or educators.
BT is a politician. He's up for re-election in 2009. Did you miss that part of the discussion? Regardless, I think he's not gonna count on the Albuquerque vote.
LOL. Yes, I remember hearing about that.
But,he's not a presidential candidate.
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Obama has read the act and he has found the loopholes that you have not found
How could he have read the act yet mistate facts about it? Is that honorable?
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Obama has read the act and he has found the loopholes that you have not found. That's reality, Ami.
Then perhaps he could elucidate. Calling it "unfunded" is plainly not true. Saying that the act punishes schools that need improvement is not true.
So, what are the loopholes that he found?
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Obama has read the act and he has found the loopholes that you have not found
How could he have read the act yet mistate facts about it? Is that honorable?
He is willing to see the loopholes, Bill, I really do believe he will find a better way to help children get a well rounded PUBLIC educaiton.
by the way, It occured to me that you were in some political field..city counsel or something like that. LOL. I had forgotten that you are IN POLITICS. d'oh, but I still maintain that you are not a politician for the people in this case, nor do you have any experience with what children are experiencing in the public schools today. That's my observation about you, Bt. with all due respect.
Test scores not enough
Mark D. Winek - Superior, Wis.
I applaud all attempts to raise math and reading scores and to narrow minority achievement gaps. Even so, when teachers are forced to spend all their efforts on raising lower-achieving students' grades, what happens to the attention that higher-achieving ones need to excel?
According to the American Federation of Teachers, since the law's enactment, the Bush administration has underfunded NCLB by $70.9 billion. So how has the education system achieved the gains in testing? By cutting classes, such as foreign languages, and services. Teachers are forced to teach to the lowest common denominator and for the goal of performing well on a test.
American life today is a series of tests from birth to death. Does teaching to a test advance U.S. society in today's global marketplace? NCLB might help raise the scores of lower-achieving students, but it also helps create a nation of mediocrity.
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2008/07/nclbs-gauge-of.html
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According to the American Federation of Teachers, since the law's enactment, the Bush administration has underfunded NCLB by $70.9 billion.
How so? What programs are underfunded. Specifics would be nice. Say there is a shortage of books? Is NCLB budgeted to fund books? Or is that the usual strawman?
Teachers are forced to teach to the lowest common denominator and for the goal of performing well on a test.
Is that what you do?
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What is wrong with making the assumption that Senator Obama would make the NCLB situation much worse?
Answer , the same thing that is wrong with assuming that Senator Obama will make the NCLB situation much better.
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There is no real way to encourage original thought using standardized multiple choice exams.
No method of testing encourages cheating like multiple choice exams.
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There is no real way to encourage original thought using standardized multiple choice exams.
No method of testing encourages cheating like multiple choice exams.
NCLB doesn't design the tests. The states do.
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There is no real way to encourage original thought using standardized multiple choice exams.
No method of testing encourages cheating like multiple choice exams.
NCLB doesn't design the tests. The states do.
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Every test in every state is a multiple choice. There is no chance that this will change, as they need a test that can be graded by machine.
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According to the American Federation of Teachers, since the law's enactment, the Bush administration has underfunded NCLB by $70.9 billion.
How so? What programs are underfunded. Specifics would be nice. Say there is a shortage of books? Is NCLB budgeted to fund books? Or is that the usual strawman?
Teachers are forced to teach to the lowest common denominator and for the goal of performing well on a test.
Is that what you do?
How so? What programs are underfunded. Specifics would be nice. Say there is a shortage of books? Is NCLB budgeted to fund books? Or is that the usual strawman?
Well, specifics will come out when Obama cleans house, Bt.
Is that what you do?
We are pressured now to raise test scores. It's not the system of the past. I might add.....we are pressured to make %. Daily, weekly, and monthly. Then we are "pressured" to make those %'s each trimester. The very tests we give are not spelled out in the NCLB act, but they are a result of the 'encouragement' if you will, of the act itself.
Our district has mandated what and how we are to teach and assess children both in reading and math. Teaching has become a one size fits all nightmare. Why? Somewhere in that loophole of an act there lies your answer. Obama knows is, and now I see first hand that there are teachers in the country who see that this NCLB act is a complete rip off for kids. I live it!
Reading; In our district, we are mandated to teach reading (and math) using a scripted program for 90 minutes a day- to all students at the same time no matter the child?s individual reading level. K-5. Kindergarten? Be darned early childhood education. Those ?kinders? sit for 90 minutes chanting letters! Why? we demand that they read! But, at what cost? Same for the other grades. If a child can not read at grade level, we have to give them a quick bite instruction and assess them using "grade level" tests.
Again, that's not what used to be the case. We spent time on all children. We taught them at their level, according to how they learn, methodology was supreme. Now, it's one size fits all...brought to you by Houghton Mifflin or Harcort Brace. That is a direct result of the reading first grant, which comes from the NCLB ACT.
We used to have the time to teach the individual child at his/her level (differentiated instruction) as well as assess students in order to drive instruction. Currently, we are ?mandated? to teach these specific research-based basal program using their script (a map of sorts). The worst part of these state mandates (offspring of Fed mandates) is that we are given VERY little time for differentiated instruction. Money would be well spent on fixing this particular problem.
We test so frequently that there is no time to teach. Scores, scores, and higher scores. The pressure comes from the ACT, BT. Children are falling farther behind. I believe that the punitive actions are doing more harm that good. Children are losing out on so much in terms of receiving well rounded education.
So, when Obama is president, I have hope that he will NOT ignore this problem.
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What programs are underfunded. Specifics would be nice. Say there is a shortage of books? Is NCLB budgeted to fund books? Or is that the usual strawman?
Well, specifics will come out when Obama cleans house, Bt.
oy, how convenient. With all due respect Cynthia, that's pretty weak. You seemed to be full of accusations, mostly aimed at this administration, but when taxed to support such accusations, amid all the facts to the contrary....well.....we just have to wait, Obama will set us straight? Might make for a nice bumper sticker, but sure does nothing to help convince folks that question his severe lack judgement & leadership ability to consider rethinking their positions, especially when it's been shown how factually wrong he is on many of his claims
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I want to add that these problems that I experience and witness first hand, in the school system today, have their roots in the nclb act. You continue to want proof that the act is not responsible. But, while you are focused on that tree, the system is not working well, and trees are falling short. The children are being left behind. Something is wrong with this picture, and if you want to blame the entire country---each and every teacher who has cried outrage... then do so. MY point has never been about the text itself.....but more about reading between the lines. Somethinmg has to be changed.
You need to get off the pedestal of the anti Union NEA and listen to the teachers, BT.
Do you do that? Honestly. Do you hear the issues. . . or do you stand on your platform as a conservative, like Sirs.
No matter what you or Ami have to post in terms of numbers, children are not getting the best....and the daddy is the nclb. The new rule brought to us by the daddy nclb act is responsible in the end.
We shall see if McCain believes this to be true, as well. I have read that he, too believes that there are glitches.
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This is getting to be a contest between your lack of knowledge of the situation and the your need to argue.
This is a contest between fact and biased opinion.
The real complaint is that at least one test a year tests teachers as well as students.
No. Wrong again. Your opinion. Listen to the video on Obama, again.
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I think everyone has acknowledged "glitches" Cynthia. The issue is what are these SPECIFIC glitches? The only answer seems to be the ever pervasive need for more money, as if THAT hasn't been tried already
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Well, then there is a severe miscommunication between what you HAVE googled and the truth.
again, you claim to know, based on your one time shot on this Ami, but you are not living in my world.
I claim to know based on having read the act. Have you done so yet?
The video that I posted with Obama's complete and honorable knowledge on the subject speaks volumns.
His "honorable knowledge" apparently does not always jive with reality. Calling it "unfunded" was but one of his untruths.
Even McCain has admitted the act is in need of change.
I never said it was perfect, or couldn't be improved. But Obama's and your claims are far from truth.
No, Ami, you are knowledge of what is happening is second hand. With all due respect. You do not understand the forest for the trees. You can read the act all day long. There are issues that need fixed and if that means the act need revised, then I believe that those changes will happen under Obama.
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I think everyone has acknowledged "glitches" Cynthia. The issue is what are these SPECIFIC glitches? The only answer seems to be the ever pervasive need for more money, as if THAT hasn't been tried already
Listen to what Obama says on the video.
I will find the transcript.
Over testing, watering down curriculum in order to meet the goals for the gov, instead of the child.....
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Obama has read the act and he has found the loopholes that you have not found. That's reality, Ami.
Then perhaps he could elucidate. Calling it "unfunded" is plainly not true. Saying that the act punishes schools that need improvement is not true.
So, what are the loopholes that he found?
I don't know, but I'll tell you one thing.....for the first time, I have heard a politician who has at least listened to the reality of the situation, and if has a way to plug up those loopholes, then I can't wait.
I see those loophole daily in my work. I have tried to explain them to you.
You continue to want to play on words here. Reading the act is one thing.....listening to how it hasn't worked based on so many teachers and their outrage over the harm that this "act" has done to kids....is priceless, and worth looking into. I trust his judgement.
We all can't be that wrong, and yet you and BT be...smack on.
Lest you both want to run for some sort of higher office. Go for it.
There is apparently more to a story in the world of not only education, but in politics when a system is this broken.... when in the past the system offered a hell of a lot more to children overall.
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I think everyone has acknowledged "glitches" Cynthia. The issue is what are these SPECIFIC glitches? The only answer seems to be the ever pervasive need for more money, as if THAT hasn't been tried already
Listen to what Obama says on the video.
We have, and as Ami has already factually demonstrated, he's wrong on it being underfunded, and is severely lacking in what "glitches" need to be addressed. And neither you nor Obama have provided any areas specifically that were supposedly "underfunded". Just your opinion of citing our need to listen to Obama's opnion
And as a side note, I'm assuming we'd point you to a McCain video to give an accurate representation of the war in Iraq, currently, and that's all you'd need to see for clarity, right??
Over testing, watering down curriculum in order to meet the goals for the gov, instead of the child.....
and where in NCLB does it reference the amount of tests mandated? Where does it reference that the curriculum be watered down? See, these are the "glitches" you nor Obama are failing to provide. You also seem to have a big issue with the desire that many tax payers want to see better accountability for their massive amounts of tax dollars being used by the education system. Why would that be?
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There is no real way to encourage original thought using standardized multiple choice exams.
No method of testing encourages cheating like multiple choice exams.
NCLB doesn't design the tests. The states do.
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Every test in every state is a multiple choice. There is no chance that this will change, as they need a test that can be graded by machine.
And testing children is part of life. No one is saying otherwise in my fiield.
But, testing has taken over the essence of what the child's overall life as a "learner".
That's wrong.
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Every test in every state is a multiple choice. There is no chance that this will change, as they need a test that can be graded by machine.
Which has little to do with NCLB, which was the claim.
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You continue to want proof that the act is not responsible.
Actually i want proof the the NCLB IS responsible.
You haven't provided that . In fact you contradict yourself at every turn.
Case in point. We should listen to Obama. Yet he isn't an educator so how can his opinion count. The only credential he has is that of a parent and we have heard from YOU that that is not enough.
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You continue to want proof that the act is not responsible.
Actually i want proof the the NCLB IS responsible.
You haven't provided that . In fact you contradict yourself at every turn.
Case in point. We should listen to Obama. Yet he isn't an educator so how can his opinion count. The only credential he has is that of a parent and we have heard from YOU that that is not enough.
Obama is a highly qualified politician who happens to listen to teachers, including his own sister.
The fact that the entire nation of teachers is complaining about the overkill in testing is one way to prove that the NCLB act is behind this somehow. It's not for me to prove that in print. I am telling you that the proof is in the pudding, Bt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSTzLILQx3c&feature=related
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Again. He is not a teacher. His opinion counts for squat according to you.
Doesn't matter if his sister teaches. Doesn't matter if he has read the law.
He is not a teacher. End of story. According to your own argument.
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Again. He is not a teacher. His opinion counts for squat according to you.
Doesn't matter if his sister teaches. Doesn't matter if he has read the law.
He is not a teacher. End of story. According to your own argument.
No, Bt....this is not the end of the story.
Teachers across the board experience these issues;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqTJvpfv6J4&feature=related
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But.....but..... he "listens", Bt. And he's a "good politician". Those apparently get one off the hook, and acceptable in supporting their non-teacher opinion
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But.....but..... he "listens", Bt. And he's a "good politician". Those apparently get one off the hook, and acceptable in supporting their non-teacher opinion
Listen to the voices of the professionals. This man explains a lot. His first statement makes sense. Collecting data to drive instruction has been a positive element of the NCLB act. . . but listen to the rest of his words. . . . I have heard Biden, Richardson and others say basically the same thing.
I like his statements of truth.
Gun to the head! Education worked for a very long time.
This man can explain the problems better than I can, I'll admit. But, that does not take away from the reality that there is a problem. I can give you my experience based argument, and google facts too, but I see kids being harmed, as I posted earlier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-ul1lMLxy4&feature=related
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but I see kids being harmed, as I posted earlier.
as do i. but nclb is not doing the harm. NCLB is words on a page.
It doesn't pressure anyone. It doesn't force anyone to teach to the test. Nowhere does it say game the system to save your job which is what teaching to the test is all about.
No NCLB doesn't harm the kids. That would be someone or something else.
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I noticed no response to this query, as Cynthia kept requesting that people just watch and listen to Obama's video. so, I'll ask it again, unless of course she's thinking this is some personal attack. ::)
I'm assuming we'd point Cynthia to a McCain video to give an accurate representation of the war in Iraq, currently. He "listens" to the troops and to the commanders, and that's all one needs for clarity, right??
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I noticed no response to this query, as Cynthia kept requesting that people just watch and listen to Obama's video. so, I'll ask it again, unless of course she's thinking this is some personal attack. ::)
I'm assuming we'd point Cynthia to a McCain video to give an accurate representation of the war in Iraq, currently. He "listens" to the troops and to the commanders, and that's all one needs for clarity, right??
Come on, Sirs...those videos speak for me.
I have told you that there are glitches, and I have shown you videos of teachers and administrators who resonate my view.
There is only hope for the furture now from Obama.
I have outlined just how the system is broken with my own experiences.
Over testing. Period.
NCLB is the ultimate reason why these changes are damaging the PS system.
You are arguing for the sake of arguing. We'll just see who wins the election and then we will see just how the system will be fixed. Then, I'll get back to you.
For now, it's not working as well as planned.
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and btw, I really do believe now that you don't know anything about the public school's problems which stem from the NCLB, do you?
Well, if anything, you should learn what is really happening out in the world of education....from the videos I have posted.
. .......Watch the videos or not...your choice to hear the voices of truth......you might learn what is really happening.... then come on back with more of your snide remarks. ;)
This is getting nowhere.
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but I see kids being harmed, as I posted earlier.
as do i. but nclb is not doing the harm. NCLB is words on a page.
It doesn't pressure anyone. It doesn't force anyone to teach to the test. Nowhere does it say game the system to save your job which is what teaching to the test is all about.
No NCLB doesn't harm the kids. That would be someone or something else.
as do i. but nclb is not doing the harm. NCLB is words on a page.
Like I said earlier.....yes, it is. Listen to the many voices of experience.
Bottom line.....each and every time I try to show you or tell you how I see the NCLB act as "responsible" for the glitches in the education system PS)....You side step the issue and refuse to hear the points even by the politicians who supported it back then and do not support it now. Biden is one. He wanted Kennedy to have success with this act and even HE has said it should be scrapped. ( during the dem.debate)
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I'm assuming we'd point Cynthia to a McCain video to give an accurate representation of the war in Iraq, currently. He "listens" to the troops and to the commanders, and that's all one needs for clarity, right??
Come on, Sirs...those videos speak for me. I have told you that there are glitches, and I have shown you videos of teachers and administrators who resonate my view. There is only hope for the furture now from Obama.
So, to flip that 180: the war in Iraq has had glitches, there are videos of military folks who resonate a similar view as my own, and that "the only hope for the future now is McCain"
Now, I'm not some McCain Kool-aide drinker and believe he's the best thing since sliced bread, but he at least has "listened" to the commanders on the ground, he has an intimate knowledge of military tactics & strategy. And he, unlike this fella Obama, has made numerous efforts to work wth the other side, on a whole host of issues. Can't say the same of that fella Obama now. But watching his video's all that you needed, huh? Interesting
You are arguing for the sake of arguing. We'll just see who wins the election and then we will see just how the system will be fixed. Then, I'll get back to you.
I don't mean to be picking on you Cynthia, but I think this is now the standard defense mechanism, when dealing with criticism you feel overwhelmed with. Arguing for the sake of arguing?? All the while no specifics, no outline of what specifically needs fixed, or how its to be payed for....just vote for him and watch it all turn out just peachy, because........well, because he said so. It's in the video
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Teaching to the test is a conscious act. An administrator suggests or a teacher decides to do just that. The state picks the curriculum. NCLB doesn't mandate Mifflin over Prentice Hall. The state chose how they will meet the requirements set forth by NCLB. Your ire is misdirected and you hope for a solution is misguided. Unless you want Obama mandating and usurping the role of the state and local school board.
Then again he could abandon minimum requirements and let the kids sink further behind in this age of global competition.
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Every test in every state is a multiple choice. There is no chance that this will change, as they need a test that can be graded by machine.
Which has little to do with NCLB, which was the claim.
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It has everything to do with it, because every test used in NCLB is a multiple choice test.
Education cannot be codified into bubbled answers on an exam. Such tests can only prove that people have been TRAINED, not educated.
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It has everything to do with it, because every test used in NCLB is a multiple choice test.
NCLB does not mandate multiple choice tests. It mandates one test per year per subject area. The form of the test is left to the states to decide.
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It has everything to do with it, because every test used in NCLB is a multiple choice test.
NCLB does not mandate multiple choice tests. It mandates one test per year per subject area. The form of the test is left to the states to decide.
The states follow the guidelines of the NCLB.
Last time....NclB is up for review.
There's a reason for that...
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I'm assuming we'd point Cynthia to a McCain video to give an accurate representation of the war in Iraq, currently. He "listens" to the troops and to the commanders, and that's all one needs for clarity, right??
Come on, Sirs...those videos speak for me. I have told you that there are glitches, and I have shown you videos of teachers and administrators who resonate my view. There is only hope for the furture now from Obama.
So, to flip that 180: the war in Iraq has had glitches, there are videos of military folks who resonate a similar view as my own, and that "the only hope for the future now is McCain"
Now, I'm not some McCain Kool-aide drinker and believe he's the best thing since sliced bread, but he at least has "listened" to the commanders on the ground, he has an intimate knowledge of military tactics & strategy. And he, unlike this fella Obama, has made numerous efforts to work wth the other side, on a whole host of issues. Can't say the same of that fella Obama now. But watching his video's all that you needed, huh? Interesting
You are arguing for the sake of arguing. We'll just see who wins the election and then we will see just how the system will be fixed. Then, I'll get back to you.
I don't mean to be picking on you Cynthia, but I think this is now the standard defense mechanism, when dealing with criticism you feel overwhelmed with. Arguing for the sake of arguing?? All the while no specifics, no outline of what specifically needs fixed, or how its to be payed for....just vote for him and watch it all turn out just peachy, because........well, because he said so. It's in the video
Nah, You aren't picking on me...You are blind, and I am frustrated with your ignorance on the reality of what is happening in the classroom. Your rhetoric is boring me. You are not capable of comprehending this subject matter....not in the least.
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The states follow the guidelines of the NCLB.
Then show me where in the NCLB it mandates multiple tests per year, and mandates that the test be multiple choice.
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I can only speak here as a classroom teacher. I am not capable of pulling stats and such out of a political hat without the search through the internet, but I sure will try. For now, let me explain my thoughts and feelings here about the status of public education since the act of NCLB came on stage.
There are critical differences between the way children were taught years ago, and the way teachers were trained way before NCLB. In a word; the system was not broken. Children were not so overly assessed. Children received a well rounded education. Children enjoyed learning. Children passed tests and if they didn?t, we helped them according to their individual level. That was the essence of my job. I loved being a teacher. ( I still do, don't get me wrong on THAT ONE)
The children learned more then, than they do now. imo
Now that the NCLB act has come down the pike, states are making decisions to improve scores, and bring children up in reading and math. Reading and math. Literally we teach nothing else but reading math and sometimes written language. The NCLB act has demanded this; Reading FIRST!
Reading first schools are mandated to use specific research based programs. Teachers in these schools are to teach by a script and within a time frame. The assessments have yet to catch up with the curriculum completely, but I suppose through time they will align. But time is not on our side. It takes time to readjust the curriculum with the assessments. In the meantime, schools are placed on AYP. That is an issue I would hope Obama is able to address.
The children are stressed. They are not given the chance to fully receive that education that was "afforded" them years ago. Now,they are fed information, instead of thinking for themselves (with the exception of math). The TERC Investigations program that we use in our district is one where children are taught to construct math instead of memorize facts. That program, however is so tightly scripted and has its own problems. Again, there is the issue of ironing out the time factor. But, in the meantime, as I say again, teachers and districts do not have time to work out curriculum kinks because the NCLB act wants results by a certain time line. The tests we give in our district (computerized) A2L. ASSESS TO LEARN does not align with the Terc Investigations curriculum. So, therefore children are assessed on things they have not been taught.
The standardized tests ; THE SBA does align with the Terc math and the Houghton Mifflin programs, but there again, that test is given to children in Feb. There are still three good months of school left, and we must test these children early so the technical dept has time to grade the computerized exams. The results are not even made known until the following fall.
The SBA test is a national standardized test. Are we going to see true results on these tests? I doubt it. The system is broken.
The bad news is that we were out of time--- yesterday!
Our class sizes are still large. The reading programs that we use are set up in such a way that we can not possibly arrange split level grades,(combo classes 2nd 3rd etc)--- lest the teacher is forced to teach TWO grades and TWO CURRICULUMS. I have taught combo classes in the past. The curriculum centered around the children individually, NOW, the scripts force a one size / grade curriculum. There is no time...there again as it is set up now.
I would like to see more teachers hired with more emphasis on implementation of the programs and differentiation of learning for all children. Does that take more money? Well, we have enough, according to some....but that $$ does not address the needs of the entire situation, as I see, anyway. I am only speaking about the changes in our schools in Alb. I would venture to bet that there are other districts in this country that are going through similar circumstances.
The children need tutoring, something the NCLB is supposed to offer. We have yet to see that. The money we spend on the tutoring comes from robbing Peter to pay Paul. We use whatever money we can scrape up to hire a part time tutor for a full time need.
We lose teachers each year because we can not afford to keep them. The way the district has apparently arranged the budget does not provide the type of assistance that is needed, or I would be jumping for joy right now. Instead, I see children who are
a) receiving only minimal reading instruction at their level
b) very little time to differentiate
c) very very little time to teach writing and the other subject areas. We have three PE? classes because of a federal program to keep kids fit. We have library and the rest of the curriculum is blocked out in time units.
d) Receiving no or little help within the school day IN TERMS of specialized instruction based on level or need
e) Special education students placed in a regular education class with one teacher and no assistant
f) We have books, but very little money for consumables.
g) There was a spending freeze placed on supplies this past spring in our district. There wasnt even enough toilet paper to go around. The custodians had a field day...d'oh.
Seriously, I attended a workshop at a middle school in early June, and the teachers first question was?.are we expected to bring our own toilet paper.
Now, that is obviously a budget issue that has little to do with NCLB, I agree. But schools need money.
Read on.
On March 2, 2005, the Connecticut State Department of Education released a limited study of the state-level administrative costs of implementing NCLB. A study of the related local administrative costs is due to be released in April 2005. The study was admittedly narrow and failed to consider the costs of raising student achievement to the 100 percent proficiency required by NCLB. It found that the total cost of implementing the administrative aspects of NCLB through fiscal year 2008 will be $112.2 million, of which the federal government is expected to provide $70.6 million. Therefore, Connecticut faces a shortfall of $41.6 million.
Under a state law passed in June 2004, Connecticut has prohibited the use of state funds to develop and administer any new tests required by NCLB
The second highest cost item was technical assistance to those schools and districts judged ?in need of improvement.? That cost totals $18 million through fiscal year 2008. Connecticut has estimated that as NCLB progresses, more schools will fail to make AYP, from the current number, 93, to 167 in fiscal year 2006, and still more in fiscal year 2008. Most other states have made similar predictions.
http://www.schoolfunding.info/news/federal/3-14-05ctnclbstudy.php3
How is the NCLB supporting individual states and their need to leave no child behind?
I find that the story grows more intricate as the facts surface. Here are some points? from articles that I googled earlier today. If you take notice, there are mandates, and ?approvals? put forth by the fed. Gov.
Another article 2005
In October, a national coalition of more than 20 organizations dealing with education, civil rights, children, disabilities and citizens? concerns called for major changes to NCLB. The coalition?s requested reforms included changes in the act?s progress measurements, sanctions and funding. Among other specific changes, the coalition is collectively requesting a raise in authorized levels of federal NCLB money to cover a substantial percentage of the costs that states and districts will incur in carrying out the remedies required under the NCLB in cases where students repeatedly demonstrate weak academic performance. The coalition also argues that the federal government has failed to "fully fund Title I" federal monies for disadvantaged children. Since these Title I monies are, along with other federal title monies, an important part of the money available to schools for NCLB, the coalition argues the NCLB is underfunded and is thereby failing "to ensure that 100 percent of eligible children are served."
Under the GAO?s reading of the law, states choose to accept federal funding in exchange for performing annual testing and offering a plethora of assistance to failing schools, such as tutoring, transportation to alternative schools of choice, mandatory hiring of highly qualified teachers and paraprofessionals, reopening failing schools as charter schools and replacing existing school administration and staff. Thus, Wells explains: "In order to receive federal financial assistance, schools and local districts agree to play by certain rules. Otherwise, they can decide to opt out of taking federal funds."
http://www.educationreport.org/pubs/mer/article.aspx?id=7021
IT seems that states are required to follow certain ?rules? under the NCLB in order to even RECEIVE funding.
More later....goodnight.
What a country!
Hey, I am tired after the night of fireworks....so pardon the typos...
I am NOT FINISHED. ;)
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"as do i. but nclb is not doing the harm. NCLB is words on a page
I forgot to add...BT
SO YOU AGREE that there are issues......the big daddy IS THE NCLB act, BT.
It's the root.
Not the teachers. You have little faith in others who have devoted years to the job of teaching.
You are too quick to judge others based on your own bias, as does Sirs. Ami just wants to beat the same horse. ha! Sorry. M. . . but that's the way I see it.
Myopic view.....cynical....hmmm, makes not a leader either.
BT,I maintain that you would NOT make a quality HIGH level politician...sorry, unless you learn to listen to all sides of an issue and hear a person's truth - based on first hand experience....The perfect politician imo....will do *-----just that*
Instead you jump to make a decision and judgement based on partisan ideals.
I can't see any politician taking the time to listen to the grunts on such issues as this... anytime soon.
Teachers are soliders in a way. We fight the fight on the battlefield.
Support mean more than bureaucratic tactical rhetoric.
Night all...I am spent. Will visit this issue again soon.
off to a few days of vacation.
Cynthia
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Not the teachers. You have little faith in others who have devoted years to the job of teaching.
I have little faith in those whose arguments are all across the board.
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Not the teachers. You have little faith in others who have devoted years to the job of teaching.
I have little faith in those whose arguments are all across the board.
That's your opinion. You are one person in this world. BT. Sure, your opinion matters but sadly your opinion is based on a need to be RIGHT. And yet, you lack a critical understanding of what the public schools are really doing for children and have been for years. There are so many positive things that you refuse to see...but, of course there is a bigger picture here. It takes a lot more than a few posts to make you see the truth.
I will continue to hear and explore the truth on this issue.
For now, I see that the NCLB needs work..a hell of a lot of work...and because the very politicians who supported the act agree with me, I see no need to worry about what you think. sorry, but that's a fact.
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You are one person in this world. BT. Sure, your opinion matters but sadly your opinion is based on a need to be RIGHT.
Let's leave the psychoanalysis to professionals.
My issue with you is you continue to blame the NCLB for problems that come from the state level.
I have never said public schools should be shut down. I do advocate a voucher system, but public schools would be eligible to compete against privates schools for students.
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You are blind, and I am frustrated with your ignorance on the reality of what is happening in the classroom. Your rhetoric is boring me. You are not capable of comprehending this subject matter....not in the least.
So, let's again flip that 180: You are blind, and I am frustrated with your ignorance on the reality of what is happening in Iraq. Your rhetoric is boring me. You are not capable of comprehending this subject matter....not in the least.
That'd be consistent with your rhetoric, right?
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Then show me where in the NCLB it mandates multiple tests per year, and mandates that the test be multiple choice.
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You are dodging the issue.
They are doing the wrong things and they are doing it poorly.
Until they do the right things well, there will be no major improvement. The problem is that the NCLB law has not done its job.
Therefore, it must be changed, or poor performance will continue to be the result.
Showing you where it says this or that is immaterial to anything important.
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Showing you where it says this or that is immaterial to anything important.
It does when it is your claim that the act mandates "over testing" of children and mandates multiple choice tests be administered.
The NCLB act does neither of those; that act mandates one test per year in each of the subject areas (reading, math, science), but leaves it up to the states to decide what form that test takes, and what level of achievement is considered adequate for it's schools.
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They are doing the wrong things and they are doing it poorly.
They being the states.
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I can only speak here as a classroom teacher. ....................................
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Hey, I am tired after the night of fireworks....so pardon the typos...
I am NOT FINISHED. ;)
A good post , but unsatisfying in one respect.
The problems that are old and the problems that are recent developments can be explicitly enumerated and examined for cause , but the promised solutions cannot be.
Senator Obama doesn't promise to scrap the NCLB , so what does he say he will do diffrently with it?
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Now that I have had time to reflect on this issue, I am going to say that
..I believe that there are segments of any issue that can be debated in detail and then there are segments within an issue that also need to be debated with clear "observable" data. ....listening to the people involved, asking pertinent questions, collecting such evidence along with hard copy abstract data.
Assessing a child's work is about concrete test results yes, ...but it is also about being able to see the child in the act of learning. Taking notes as the child is engaged in the task at hand, making clinical and objective anecdotal records along the way.
Both methods are necessary in order to make a final and clear judgement/assessment of how the child is progressing and learning.
This debate about the elements of The NCLB act reminds me of that.
There are some very good elements within the act and I am sure Kennedy had a great idea as he created the law.
And, yet there are obvious issues that need to be worked on. But the overall assessment of the NCLB act will have to come with more than a one size fits all form of data collection.
It takes a lot to work to assess and fine tune any program, law or system.
I applaud Obama's willingness to hear the evidence that teachers bring to the debate and ultimately to the fine tuning of a broken act.
It's clear that the NCLB is on the docket for change.
If McCain can bring about such changes, so be it.
I am not partisan on this issue.