DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: sirs on September 29, 2008, 11:44:11 PM
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This now now now society, where there's a valid 2:1 ratio of the population that opposes the current bail-out plan, yet, still will blame DC for not doing.....something to fix it, when, with all due respect to the electorate, The Government is just as much, if not more to blame than anyone else.
Yet, that said, IIRC, in 2004 the GOP made numerous concerns regarding Fannie Mae & Freddy Mac, citing numerous problems in lack of appropriate & substantive oversight, with McCain even sponsoring legisation for reform, in 2005. Yet Democrats at the time, including messers Dodd, Waters, Frank, etc., all when in record claiming all was just peachy with Fanny, nothing to see here, just some witch hunt by the GOP...move along. Dodd & Obama in the top 3 for campaign donations from Fanny Mae. Obama's economic consultants/advisors formerly from Fanny Mae.
If they did sound a warning whistle in 2004, the GOP was in the majority, and should have been able to pass some for of reform....unless of course there was major obstruction imposed by the left.....and Senator Dodd in particular. I wouldn't be surprised. Still, it's an abomination that should have never been allowed to get this far. Yet "Congress coming to the rescue" is likely to perpetuate the problem, much like it did during the Great Depression. Will the electorate get a clue? Not if the MSM have their way, and American Idol remains the glue to everyone's attention span
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Will the electorate get a clue? Not if the MSM have their way, and American Idol remains the glue to everyone's attention span
Couldn't have said it better myself, and it applies to more than the bailout, but to a lot of other things that go on in govt as well. I asked a younger co-worker today (he's 20) if he planned to vote. He said no, because he'd have to bone up on the issues to make a good decision.
I see I have my work cut out for me to get him to vote (not who to vote for, but just to vote period). At least he isn't the type to vote for someone uninformed, which seems to be a lot of the electorate.
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I see I have my work cut out for me to get him to vote (not who to vote for, but just to vote period). At least he isn't the type to vote for someone uninformed, which seems to be a lot of the electorate.
Here here. So true, I'm afraid :-\
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Will the electorate get a clue? Not if the MSM have their way, and American Idol remains the glue to everyone's attention span
Not likely. The electorates - and the elites, of most western nations appear to have taken it into their heads that nature can be thwarted by legislative fiat. I doubt that this notion will be disabused by anything short of catastrophic failure, if even then.
The MSM isn't the problem. The MSM is merely a symptom of the problem.
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Not likely. The electorates - and the elites, of most western nations appear to have taken it into their heads that nature can be thwarted by legislative fiat. I doubt that this notion will be disabused by anything short of catastrophic failure, if even then.
How do you suppose it is that Denmark works so well and that Danes are the happiest people on the planet?
They have abolished homelessness, malnutrition and poverty for damn near everyone. Mostly through legislation. Part of the reason is that nearly everyone there is a Dane, but still...
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Not likely. The electorates - and the elites, of most western nations appear to have taken it into their heads that nature can be thwarted by legislative fiat. I doubt that this notion will be disabused by anything short of catastrophic failure, if even then.
How do you suppose it is that Denmark works so well and that Danes are the happiest people on the planet?
They have abolished homelessness, malnutrition and poverty for damn near everyone. Mostly through legislation. Part of the reason is that nearly everyone there is a Dane, but still...
You think that resegregation would solve some problems?
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You think that resegregation would solve some problems?
It might, but it would cause vastly more problems.
The thing about Danes is that they agree politically on most important issues. I don't think race would be an issue if everyone has the same basic views.
I find it interesting that you would suggest that segregation would make the US more like Denmark. Changes in attitudes would surely do more.
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You think that resegregation would solve some problems?
It might, but it would cause vastly more problems.
The thing about Danes is that they agree politically on most important issues. I don't think race would be an issue if everyone has the same basic views.
I find it interesting that you would suggest that segregation would make the US more like Denmark. Changes in attitudes would surely do more.
I thought that was your suggestion.
I agree that attitude is more important , but our politics seem to still be kinda segregated with some minorities apparently tied to a party affiliation at birth.
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I agree that attitude is more important , but our politics seem to still be kinda segregated with some minorities apparently tied to a party affiliation at birth.
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I do not know but what this may be true of Danes as well. But nearly all Danes agree that abolishing poverty, universal health care, and universal education are desirable goals for everyone. Americans tend to think that all efforts to abolish poverty will result in laziness, they resent having to pay for the wellness of their more unfortunate citizens who have been born sickly, and they see no reason why they should invest in anti-alcoholism, anti-smoking, and proper nutritional education, decent public transportation, both urban and intercity.
In 1945 Denmark was poor, suffering from five years of Nazi occupation and war. They were LOTS poorer than the US. Denmark has many fewer natural resources than the US. Since then, they have become the happiest people on the planet. There is obviously much we could learn from the Danes, yet there does not seem to be any interest in adopting what programs we could adopt to improve the quality of life in the US in the way that Denmark has done.
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I agree that attitude is more important , but our politics seem to still be kinda segregated with some minorities apparently tied to a party affiliation at birth.
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I do not know but what this may be true of Danes as well. But nearly all Danes agree that abolishing poverty, universal health care, and universal education are desirable goals for everyone. Americans tend to think that all efforts to abolish poverty will result in laziness, they resent having to pay for the wellness of their more unfortunate citizens who have been born sickly, and they see no reason why they should invest in anti-alcoholism, anti-smoking, and proper nutritional education, decent public transportation, both urban and intercity.
In 1945 Denmark was poor, suffering from five years of Nazi occupation and war. They were LOTS poorer than the US. Denmark has many fewer natural resources than the US. Since then, they have become the happiest people on the planet. There is obviously much we could learn from the Danes, yet there does not seem to be any interest in adopting what programs we could adopt to improve the quality of life in the US in the way that Denmark has done.
Could Europe reinvent the Marshall plan and point it our way?
This would be a good time .
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Could Europe reinvent the Marshall plan and point it our way?
This would be a good time .
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Yeah, sure. Remember all those black Belgian helicopters that were here to take over the country when Clinton was president? Rush and the rest of the rightwing radio jocks would not shut up about them, even though it seems that they did not actually exist.
The Marshall Plan was followed by major CIA meddling in elections in France and Italy and minor meddling in other places.
I doubt that this would go over with the rightwingers here.
Americans need to find their own solutions, but they can find solutions to many problems in other countries like those of Europe and several other places: NZ, Australia, Costa Rica, Uruguay
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Yeah, sure. Remember all those black Belgian helicopters that were here to take over the country when Clinton was president? Rush and the rest of the rightwing radio jocks would not shut up about them,.....
I really get the feeling that as little as I listen to Rush Limbaugh , you listen to him even less.
This is a very poor caricterisation of Rush , have you an example of his carrying on about black helicopters?
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Yea, what the hell are you talking about now Xo? What may be obvious to you, is hardly so to the rest of the rational world......or even those few who listen to Rush
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I really get the feeling that as little as I listen to Rush Limbaugh , you listen to him even less.
This is a very poor caricterisation of Rush , have you an example of his carrying on about black helicopters?
About ten years ago, that is what Rush was ranting about.
When Juniorbush was selected, the Belgian Black Helicopter menace vanished.
I did not record his show then, I do not listen to it more than sporatically now, because he is an idiot, and I already have sufficient exposure to idiocy.
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>> I already have sufficient exposure to idiocy.<<
Have you considered getting rid of all your mirrors?
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About ten years ago, that is what Rush was ranting about. When Juniorbush was selected, the Belgian Black Helicopter menace vanished.
How convenient.....the only source of this latest asanine accusation is Xo's memory ::)
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I really get the feeling that as little as I listen to Rush Limbaugh , you listen to him even less.
This is a very poor caricterisation of Rush , have you an example of his carrying on about black helicopters?
About ten years ago, that is what Rush was ranting about.
When Juniorbush was selected, the Belgian Black Helicopter menace vanished.
I did not record his show then, I do not listen to it more than sporatically now, because he is an idiot, and I already have sufficient exposure to idiocy.
Although I have heard of the "black Helicopters" I havent heard of a Belgin connection to black helicopters. The only real black helicopters I have seen belong to the US Army , the US border patroll or civillian .
And this sounds unlike Rush , do you have some idea of where I could look for evidence that there is a Limbaugh connection to this particular conspiracy theeroy ?
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The helicopters were black and unmarked, and it was alleged that they were Belgian, because the capital of the European Community is Brussels and that is in Belgium. It was never clear what they were doing other than observing everyday life and possibly military movements. Most of what I heard about these were from an Airforce Colonel that taught at my university who lived a long way from the campus and spent his drivetime listening to Rush and others like Rush, There was another AF veteran airway science instructor who also lived a ways away in the other direction and these two would get together are compare notes. Basically, the idea was that the US was slowly losing its sovereignty to the EC, which had come to dominate NATO and in the case that US foreign policy varied from NATO policy, the information provided by the black helicopters would assist them in taking over what was required to convince the US govt to go along with whatever devious socialistic nanny state European plan the Belgians and their allies had for us.
The second guy was convinced that the takeover was likely to happen at any moment, but the colonel preferred to say that the other guy was off base a bit, because he was privy to very, very SECRET information that of course, he could never disclose. Strangely, the Colonel preferred Juniorbush to John McCain, although he did say that he thought the bad rumors Rove and others were spreading about him were false. The Colonel was a Vietnam vet who claimed to be a Chippewa Indian (he did not resemble any Indians I know), and was very fond of kayaking. Like McCain, he thought Vietnam was a noble cause that failed because of defeatists in the US. When we pointed out that they had a good six years to win the war before the serious protests started, he would lapse into Deep Secret mode.
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So...not only is it simply Xo's memory as supposed validation of this accusation, now it's 2nd hand hearsay memory. ::)
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The helicopters were black and unmarked, and it was alleged that they were Belgian, because the capital of the European Community is Brussels and that is in Belgium. It was never clear what they were doing other than observing everyday life and possibly military movements. Most of what I heard about these were from an Airforce Colonel that taught at my university who lived a long way from the campus and spent his drivetime listening to Rush and others like Rush, There was another AF veteran airway science instructor who also lived a ways away in the other direction and these two would get together are compare notes. Basically, the idea was that the US was slowly losing its sovereignty to the EC, which had come to dominate NATO and in the case that US foreign policy varied from NATO policy, the information provided by the black helicopters would assist them in taking over what was required to convince the US govt to go along with whatever devious socialistic nanny state European plan the Belgians and their allies had for us.
The second guy was convinced that the takeover was likely to happen at any moment, but the colonel preferred to say that the other guy was off base a bit, because he was privy to very, very SECRET information that of course, he could never disclose. Strangely, the Colonel preferred Juniorbush to John McCain, although he did say that he thought the bad rumors Rove and others were spreading about him were false. The Colonel was a Vietnam vet who claimed to be a Chippewa Indian (he did not resemble any Indians I know), and was very fond of kayaking. Like McCain, he thought Vietnam was a noble cause that failed because of defeatists in the US. When we pointed out that they had a good six years to win the war before the serious protests started, he would lapse into Deep Secret mode.
Last time I saw a NATO owned aircraft it was an AWACS visiting Wright Pattersn AFB.
Wasn't painted black , had lots of flags painted on it.
Tipical of European based NATO owned aircraft.
(http://www.saunalahti.fi/fta/NATO_AWACS_SI-2.jpg)
Now,...
I can't claim that I listen to Rush Limbaugh a lot , but I do enjoy him when it is convienient to listen to him.
And this story doesn't sound like him.
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They largely never do
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After I heard the two flyboys chatter on about Rush and black helicopters, I listened in to Rush and he discussed the black helicopter stuff with callers.
I am not making this up. Here is a Wikipedia article on the subject.
Note I have never alleged that any part of the actual balck helicopter menace is in any way true. I am simply pointing out that it was a common topic several years ago. Perhaps you guys were playing peewee somethingball when this happened and missed it.
Black helicopter
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses, see Black helicopter (disambiguation).
The concept of black helicopters became popular in the United States militia movement, and in associated political circles, in the 1990s as an alleged symbol and warning sign of a conspiratorial totalitarian military takeover of part or all of the United States. Rumors would circulate that, for instance, the United Nations patrolled the US with black helicopters, or that federal agents used black helicopters to enforce wildlife laws. The concept springs from the basic truth that many government agencies and corporations do use helicopters, and that some of these helicopters are dark-colored or black. For instance, dark-colored military helicopters were deployed in the standoff at Ruby Ridge.[1]
The phrase "black helicopters" is also sometimes used figuratively to ridicule conspiracy theories in general (see below).
In the United Kingdom, a similar phenomenon known as "phantom helicopters" has been reported since the mid 1970s.[2] This concept relates phantom helicopters to UFOs and alien invasion rather than to martial law.
Contents
[hide]
* 1 Overview
* 2 Possible explanations
* 3 Pejorative use
* 4 In Popular Culture
* 5 References
* 6 External links
[edit] Overview
The issue was first popularized in the early 1990s by Mark Koernke[3] (also known as Mark from Michigan) in appearances on Tom Valentine's radio show and in public speeches which were widely circulated on videocassette, and shortly thereafter by Linda Thompson in her film America Under Siege. In Alex Jones' film Police State 2000 unmarked black helicopters are shown flying low in surprise urban warfare training missions with Delta Force operators and foreign troops.
Two books on the subject: Black Helicopters Over America: Strikeforce for the New World Order (1995), and Black Helicopters II : The End Game Strategy (1998), are from the now-defunct Illuminet Press and were written by Jim Keith.
The greatest media attention to black helicopters was most probably paid in February 1995, when first-term Republican northern Idaho Representative Helen Chenoweth charged that armed federal agents were landing black helicopters on Idaho ranchers' property to enforce the Endangered Species Act. "I have never seen them," Chenoweth said in an interview in The New York Times. "But enough people in my district have become concerned that I can't just ignore it. We do have some proof."[4] Chenoweth made the charges at a press conference without ever consulting with the Department of the Interior.
The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, which enforces the act, says that they do not own any helicopters nor have ever used any in Idaho. The only green and black military helicopters known to be used in Idaho are used by the National Guard. Black helicopters without FAA-required running lights are regularly used by the drug interdiction office of the DEA. In addition, most U.S. Army helicopters (such as the Black Hawk) are finished in a very dark chocolate or olive matte paint.
Black helicopters have also been reported in the areas where cattle mutilation has been reported.[5] The black helicopters theory resonates well with the belief held by some in the militia movement that troops from the United Nations might invade the United States.
The John Birch Society [6] published an article in The New American detailing how the existence of the covert aircraft was mostly the product of visual errors and fear mongering.
In June 2008, black helicopters were seen flying above buildings in Denver, Colorado.[7]
In late August, 2008, black helicopters were thought to have been seen circling Gwinnett County, Georgia.[citation needed]
In mid-September, 2008, black helicopters were identified over St. Catharines, Ontario.[citation needed]
[edit] Possible explanations
The following explanations have been provided by various organizations and experts, including government agencies, regarding the alleged black helicopters:
* At least some sightings of black helicopters are very likely to have been helicopters on exercises and/or missions. Some of them are flown by units of the Army National Guard and are actually black (not dark olive or chocolate brown) when seen in ordinary light. The Department of Homeland Security operates a dozen black-and-gold UH-60 Blackhawk under the US Customs Service.[8] The American military does in fact operate helicopters painted in black or dark colors, particularly the Pave Low which is optimized for long-range stealthy insertion and extraction of personnel, including combat search and rescue.
* U.S. Army and National Guard helicopters painted olive drab will appear to be black in the reddish light of dawn or dusk, or under other low light conditions during the day when their shadow side is viewed against the sky with the naked eye.
* The U.S. Army regularly conducts both exercises and operational missions in American airspace. Some of these exercises have taken place in densely populated cities, including Los Angeles, New York, Detroit, San Francisco, Oakland and Washington, D.C. Most operational missions are tasked in narcotics interdiction in the American Southwest and out of Florida and Puerto Rico. By extensive use of IR, Radar, GPS and night vision devices, as well as other classified means, they are able to fly in zero visibility conditions with no running lights. At this high intensity level of operation, training is necessarily almost as dangerous to pilots, other air traffic, and the public as actual combat. Frequent practice is necessary to retain proficiency. Frequent practice results in frequent sightings by concerned members of the public.
* Many defense contractors and helicopter manufacturers also conduct public flight testing of aircraft and components or fly aircraft in public view to test ranges or other corporate airfields for training or demonstrations. Occasionally, some of these aircraft will be made for military clients and are painted in black or dark colors.
* In the UK, Police Helicopters are required by the CAA to be marked in a standard 'high conspicuosity' paint scheme, to make them more visible and avoid the possibility of air proximity hazards with other low flying aircraft. This paint scheme, also used by UK military training helicopters, requires them to be black on the sides and underneath, and yellow on top. When seen from the ground, these helicopters are black but this is to make them more visible against the sky as a safety feature (and yellow against the ground when seen from above).
[edit] Pejorative use
The term has also been used to ridicule other conspiracy theories or conspiracy theorists. For instance, a Slate article on basketball refereeing, said: "In the wake of this scandal, every game will be in question, and not only by fans disposed to seeing black helicopters outside the arena."[9]
[edit] In Popular Culture
In Robert Doherty's novel, Area 51, portrays Turcotte at the beginning of the book suiting up for a Black Ops mission in a Black helicopter to cover up a cattle mutilation
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After I heard the two flyboys chatter on about Rush and black helicopters, I listened in to Rush and he discussed the black helicopter stuff with callers.
I didn't think you were making it up , it is the Rush connection I doubt.
But Rush will get silly with callers sometimes , some callers deserve it.
In the real world black is just a color scheme option for a Helicopter , if you own a helicopter it can be colored any way you please.
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In the real world black is just a color scheme option for a Helicopter , if you own a helicopter it can be colored any way you please.
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IN the real world I don't and probably can't, own a military helicopter. These were allegedly military helicopters, painted black because they were on some stealthy mission.
I never saw one. This was an example of the sort of weird stuff that has been on Rush's show over the years. Callers telling him about black helicopters, and Rush not telling them they were fruitcakes.
I never said these were a danger or a threat or anything else. This was about 12 years ago, so it's not a concern now, anyway.
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These were allegedly military helicopters, painted black because they were on some stealthy mission.
The French sell military helicopters to anyone with enough money. Maryland purchased a bunch of them for the State Police and hospital rescue equipment.
The French DID remove the armament first, though.
They purchased the Dauphin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_Dauphin), which is an unarmed version of the Panther (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_Panther)
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In the real world black is just a color scheme option for a Helicopter , if you own a helicopter it can be colored any way you please.
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IN the real world I don't and probably can't, own a military helicopter. These were allegedly military helicopters, painted black because they were on some stealthy mission.
I never saw one. This was an example of the sort of weird stuff that has been on Rush's show over the years. Callers telling him about black helicopters, and Rush not telling them they were fruitcakes.
I never said these were a danger or a threat or anything else. This was about 12 years ago, so it's not a concern now, anyway.
It depends on what you want .
If you seriously want a helicopter you can get one , but you will have to figure out how to make it pay for itself , this isn't easy, not worth the dedication for most of us.
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I said I personally would not be able to buy and, more specifically, use a military helicopter.
First, they are insanely expensive. Then you need a license, and insurance, and I am sure that the various federal, state and local governments would have many, many obstacles that would in effect make it impossible. It does not trouble me that the French sell the Maryland cops helicopters. I bet Bell or Sikorsry would sell them too, just at a higher price.
The Miami-Dade cops have too many of these and are always hovering over my neighborhood waka-waka-waka for up to an hour at a time. After a particularly long period of low level hovering, I got the pilot's attention withj a cheap laser flashlight and flipped him the bird. He then flew off.
Not that I want to own or fly one. The main point here is that there WAS a major paranoid story about black helicopters seeking to dominate the country and that it was the topic of discussion on Rush Limbaugh's radio show for a certain period, I did not make it up, not at any time did I think it was in any way important.
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Actually, the main point here is that you have 3rd person hearsay of something you alone claim Rush of doing 10+years ago. All the while conservatives and those who tend to know Rush a tad better than you, have no such recollection at all. If there were such "dittoheads", they'd be proudly parroting MahaRushie. However, the only ones that parrot this nonsense are those that hate Rush. I think you can do the math
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IT is MY post, the the main point is what I say it is.
This was years and years ago, and as the wikipedia entry attests, I did not invent it., nor do I claim that there ever was any danger of Belgians overthrowing the government with their stupid black helicopters.
What the crap is wrong with you? Why do you keep showing your abysmal ignorance over things that have zero importance?
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This was years and years ago, and as the wikipedia entry attests, I did not invent it., nor do I claim that there ever was any danger of Belgians overthrowing the government with their stupid black helicopters.
And yet, the Wikipedia article makes no mention of Rush. They do talk about another radio show host, Tom Valentine. Perhaps you are confused as to who brought it up on the radio?
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IT is MY post, the the main point is what I say it is.
My my.......didn't eat your grape nuts this AM? No one can make any counterpoints, Xo says so ::)
This was years and years ago, and as the wikipedia entry attests, I did not invent it., nor do I claim that there ever was any danger of Belgians overthrowing the government with their stupid black helicopters. What the crap is wrong with you? Why do you keep showing your abysmal ignorance over things that have zero importance?
So, who brought black helicopters and Rush into the equation again? And if it's of zero importance, why did you even bring it up, in the 1st place??
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It was a matter of amusement, that is all.
Since your sense of humor was removed by the same aliens that turned you into a Republican, you failed to be amused.
That is my theory
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Tells you how flawed all your theories are. I'm not a Republican
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Sorry, I forgot you were a Fascist. So few of you guys left.
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Your theories keep dropping like flies
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I am thinking 'wiseass' fits you best. It isn't exactly an ideology, but then again, you aren't really into ideas. Or thinking.
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It's no wonder your theories are are so flawed
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I think I can indeed beleive that Rush would talk about this if a caller brought it up , but I thought that this was in some way accuseing Rush of proposeing this idea.
For just the reasons you mentioned , privately owned helicopters are scarce , but they are not impossible , there are only a few of us who love helicopters enough to jump through enough hoops and shell out enough money.
Please never shine a laser onto an aircraft again not only do they not like that , they can arrest you for it.
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Please never shine a laser onto an aircraft again not only do they not like that , they can arrest you for it.
I did not shine it into the cockpit. I was tired of the inconsiderate bastard hovering over my house with the whumpa whumpa whumpa for damn near an hour. It was not a serious laser, just a pen someone gave me.
I do not want a helicopter to fall on my house. But no one has the right to hover that close for that long. The fool probably did not even think about how much noise he was making, which is why he fleww off when he noted my displeasure.
This was five years ago, and they haven't done this since. The cops in Miami-Dade are useful only as a deterrence. They tend to treat people like sh*t and to my knowledge, have never solved a single burglary or car theft of anyone I know. They won't even take fingerprints. I drive carefully and do what they tell me to do, because I am not stupid. But they are useless at catching crooks.
I imagine that they are more useful at violent crimes, especially against rich people.
Once I was robbed. A shirtless Black guy carried a bicycle out of my yard, took it down the street and broke thee lock on it, then he rode off. I came close to nabbing him, but he was too fast.The cop said that in my place, he would "move the Hell away from I-95 and this neighborhood". I am not sure how he would do that on a cop's salary. Turns out he was renting. I told him that there was a guy on 102nd street that had a pile of bikes in his front yard and sold drugs. He got a call and went somewhere else, I don't think he even checked. It was a cheap bike, but I had a good description of it. It had one red tire, which should be easy to spot.
That time a guy