DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Brassmask on October 28, 2008, 03:53:46 PM
-
Wow, Sarah Palin is a god damned socialist. She once said, in an interview, a couple of months ago, (not seven+ years ago) very matter-of-factly that Alaskans share the wealth.
So, Obama's off-hand comments PROVE that he has socialist tendencies according to everyone on the right here, then that must mean that Palin is a socialist TOO! Right?!?!?
Bonus Quote of the Day
"We're set up, unlike other states in the union, where it's collectively Alaskans own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources occurs."
-- Gov. Sarah Palin, quoted by the New Yorker, a few weeks before she was nominated for vice president.
http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/10/28/bonus_quote_of_the_day.html (http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/10/28/bonus_quote_of_the_day.html)
Link to the New Yorker article.
http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/10/28/bonus_quote_of_the_day.html (http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/10/28/bonus_quote_of_the_day.html)
-
>> ...Alaskans own the resources ...<<
Bingo. You don't own mine, so your pretense is once again false.
-
>> ...Alaskans own the resources ...<<
Bingo. You don't own mine, so your pretense is once again false.
So, Alaskans are socialists.
-
If that's the best you can do.
-
If that's the best you can do.
Are you saying that all the citizens of the state owning the resources and sharing the wealth from the sale of said resources is NOT socialism?
-
So, Alaskans are socialists.
Not really. I am a part owner of all the state owned lands in Minnesota, so any income that is derived from those lands should be part mine. It's the same in Alaska, except that the resources that are state owned are more significant. Doesn't mean that there are NO private owned resources in Alaska.
-
So, Alaskans are socialists.
Not really. I am a part owner of all the state owned lands in Minnesota, so any income that is derived from those lands should be part mine. It's the same in Alaska, except that the resources that are state owned are more significant. Doesn't mean that there are NO private owned resources in Alaska.
So, there is nothing even socialist in nature about this setup?
-
Wow, Sarah Palin is a god damned socialist. She once said, in an interview, a couple of months ago, (not seven+ years ago) very matter-of-factly that Alaskans share the wealth.
So, Obama's off-hand comments PROVE that he has socialist tendencies according to everyone on the right here, then that must mean that Palin is a socialist TOO! Right?!?!?
Bonus Quote of the Day
"We're set up, unlike other states in the union, where it's collectively Alaskans own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources occurs."
-- Gov. Sarah Palin, quoted by the New Yorker, a few weeks before she was nominated for vice president.
http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/10/28/bonus_quote_of_the_day.html (http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/10/28/bonus_quote_of_the_day.html)
Link to the New Yorker article.
http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/10/28/bonus_quote_of_the_day.html (http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/10/28/bonus_quote_of_the_day.html)
Does this make you like her better?
If you like her , she must be a socialist.
-
As for "liking her", the answer is no.
I admire her acknowledging, at least in part, that all the resources of the earth should belong to all the people of the earth and that everyone should share in the utilization of those resources.
I imagine that was not her intention. I image she was just buying votes.
-
As for "liking her", the answer is no.
I admire her acknowledging, at least in part, that all the resources of the earth should belong to all the people of the earth and that everyone should share in the utilization of those resources.
I imagine that was not her intention. I image she was just buying votes.
All of Alaska's govenors have done this since Oil got valuable for them , I think the Alaskans expect it.
-
So, there is nothing even socialist in nature about this setup?
No. It's more like capitalism. Consider me a shareholder in "State of Minnesota, Inc." and that entitles me to a portion of the profits. Not much different.
-
No. It's more like capitalism. Consider me a shareholder in "State of Minnesota, Inc." and that entitles me to a portion of the profits. Not much different.
What sort of dividends did Minnesota pay out to shareholders last quarter?
In Texas, they had a lot of oil on state lands, and they spent it on roads and schools. The people did not get any checks in the mail.
Oklahoma did the same thing. In Louisiana a lot more went to graft and corruption than in TX and OK, but they got a goodly amount as well.
If an industry belongs to the state and the state divvies up the money, that isn't capitalism. Capitalism deals with investments more than with sharing. Even old US copanies rarely pay out more than a minor share of the profits.
-
No. It's more like capitalism. Consider me a shareholder in "State of Minnesota, Inc." and that entitles me to a portion of the profits. Not much different.
What sort of dividends did Minnesota pay out to shareholders last quarter?
In Texas, they had a lot of oil on state lands, and they spent it on roads and schools. The people did not get any checks in the mail.
Oklahoma did the same thing. In Louisiana a lot more went to graft and corruption than in TX and OK, but they got a goodly amount as well.
If an industry belongs to the state and the state divvies up the money, that isn't capitalism. Capitalism deals with investments more than with sharing. Even old US copanies rarely pay out more than a minor share of the profits.
So the USA includes too much socialism already.
Why vote for more?
-
What sort of dividends did Minnesota pay out to shareholders last quarter?
They don't have to pay it out if the income reduces the tax burden. Paying less in taxes is the same as paying more and getting a check back. It's been a few years since they sent out rebates to Minnesota tax payers, but it has happened a number of times. The state is required by law to refund any budget surpluses to the taxpayers.
Turns out that Alaska gets enough from oil that it can pay all the bills and have money left that it divvies up to the citizens. Doesn't make it socialism.
-
Turns out that Alaska gets enough from oil that it can pay all the bills and have money left that it divvies up to the citizens. Doesn't make it socialism.
Seems close.
What would Joe the Plumber say?
-
Turns out that Alaska gets enough from oil that it can pay all the bills and have money left that it divvies up to the citizens. Doesn't make it socialism.
======================
Desn't make it NOT Socialism, either.
Seems close.
What would Joe the Plumber say?
I think Joe the Plumber is a poor choice of an expert to ask about what is or is not socialism. Joe Biden probably could tell you, but he might not do so at the moment.
Norway provides all manner of services for its citizens from its extensive oil deposits and hydroelectric projects, and makes no bones about being socialist.
-
Turns out that Alaska gets enough from oil that it can pay all the bills and have money left that it divvies up to the citizens. Doesn't make it socialism.
======================
Desn't make it NOT Socialism, either.
Seems close.
What would Joe the Plumber say?
I think Joe the Plumber is a poor choice of an expert to ask about what is or is not socialism. Joe Biden probably could tell you, but he might not do so at the moment.
Norway provides all manner of services for its citizens from its extensive oil deposits and hydroelectric projects, and makes no bones about being socialist.
Joe the Plumber is a better man to ask because Joe the Seantor just got his knuckles spanked for speaking a true thing or two. He cannot stand to hear the word "Marx" and cannot say that BHO isn't Marxist.
Woul dyu ask someone who is invested so much in telling you something that isn't so?
-
Obama is not a socialist by any standard definition of the word. Progressive taxes are universal in the developed world. You might call him a Keynesian, though. Richard Nixon owned up to being a Keynesian.
Marx said nothing about progressive taxes. Marx was a radical reformer, who wanted the means of production to belong to the state. If the state owns the means of production, there need be no taxes.
Marx wanted rule to be by a cadre of loyal ideologues, not by democratic vote of everyone.
YOu really do not know what Marxism is. I suspect you have Karl confused with Harpo, Zeppo, Gummo, and Groucho.
-
So, there is nothing even socialist in nature about this setup?
No. It's more like capitalism. Consider me a shareholder in "State of Minnesota, Inc." and that entitles me to a portion of the profits. Not much different.
A SHAREHOLDER IN THE STATE????? THAT'S FREAKING SOCIALISM!!!!
-
So, there is nothing even socialist in nature about this setup?
No. It's more like capitalism. Consider me a shareholder in "State of Minnesota, Inc." and that entitles me to a portion of the profits. Not much different.
A SHAREHOLDER IN THE STATE????? THAT'S FREAKING SOCIALISM!!!!
So what is a shareholder in a corporation?
-
So what is a shareholder in a corporation?
A capitalist.
-
What sort of dividends did Minnesota pay out to shareholders last quarter?
They don't have to pay it out if the income reduces the tax burden. Paying less in taxes is the same as paying more and getting a check back. It's been a few years since they sent out rebates to Minnesota tax payers, but it has happened a number of times. The state is required by law to refund any budget surpluses to the taxpayers.
Turns out that Alaska gets enough from oil that it can pay all the bills and have money left that it divvies up to the citizens. Doesn't make it socialism.
so?cial?ism
? ?/?so????l?z?m/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.
-
[3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.
The stage that follows the perfection of colectivist principals is known as "famine".
-
[3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.
The stage that follows the perfection of colectivist principals is known as "famine".
I can't recall any states that perfected collectivist principles. Can you name one?
China is doing pretty good at it but they still haven't perfected it.
-
[3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.
The stage that follows the perfection of collectivist principals is known as "famine".
I can't recall any states that perfected collectivist principles. Can you name one?
China is doing pretty good at it but they still haven't perfected it.
China during its record setting famines , Cambodia during its "killing fields "Of course these perfected collectivisms were not preserved long , they were killing too many , there were soon going to be too few left to do the work.
Getting further from collectivisation has improved the situation of China a lot , now if only they could embrace also individual dignity and rights they would be completely removed from perfect collectivization.
-
Obama is not a socialist by any standard definition of the word. Progressive taxes are universal in the developed world. You might call him a Keynesian, though. Richard Nixon owned up to being a Keynesian.
Marx said nothing about progressive taxes. Marx was a radical reformer, who wanted the means of production to belong to the state. If the state owns the means of production, there need be no taxes.
Marx wanted rule to be by a cadre of loyal ideologues, not by democratic vote of everyone.
YOu really do not know what Marxism is. I suspect you have Karl confused with Harpo, Zeppo, Gummo, and Groucho.
Xavier,
As I read through this entire thread, I come to wonder.....
Wouldn't you like to see socialism in this country? Why so defensive?
What's wrong with supporting such a thing?
Be honest.
Cindy
-
If the state owns the means of production, there need be no taxes.
A very high tax rate is thereby socialist .
A 100% tax rate that put everyone on the dole would acheive socialism , would n't it?
So any tax above the mere need of the government is a step in that direction.
-
Xavier,
As I read through this entire thread, I come to wonder.....
Wouldn't you like to see socialism in this country? Why so defensive?
What's wrong with supporting such a thing?
Be honest.
Cindy
Cindy,
Don't know if this is a shrewd post on your part or just an honest question.
I can't speak for XO, but for me, socialism is part and parcel of the American way of life. Of late, it has been in decline as right-wing ideologues have fought to "starve the beast" in hopes of being allowed to set the rules as far as what is fair and what isn't. They would like to see capitalism unfettered and running amok THAT IS UNTIL they utterly fail and want to see some socialism in the form of bailouts. Then they are all about how everything is connected and if the banks go under EVERYONE goes under.
Personally, I believe that we need some socialism put back in our way of life along the lines of the New Deal and the Great Society but I don't believe for a second that is Barack Obama's intent.
I do, however, believe that Hannity, Limbaugh and their followers would LOVE to hear Obama, his surrogates and a lot of his supporters say something along the lines of, "HELL YES, WE'RE SOCIALISTS!!! WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO ABOUT IT???" especially before the weekend so people can stew on it.
But that just ain't gonna happen.
Brass
-
Xavier,
As I read through this entire thread, I come to wonder.....
Wouldn't you like to see socialism in this country? Why so defensive?
What's wrong with supporting such a thing?
Be honest.
Cindy
Cindy,
Don't know if this is a shrewd post on your part or just an honest question.
I can't speak for XO, but for me, socialism is part and parcel of the American way of life. Of late, it has been in decline as right-wing ideologues have fought to "starve the beast" in hopes of being allowed to set the rules as far as what is fair and what isn't. They would like to see capitalism unfettered and running amok THAT IS UNTIL they utterly fail and want to see some socialism in the form of bailouts. Then they are all about how everything is connected and if the banks go under EVERYONE goes under.
Personally, I believe that we need some socialism put back in our way of life along the lines of the New Deal and the Great Society but I don't believe for a second that is Barack Obama's intent.
I do, however, believe that Hannity, Limbaugh and their followers would LOVE to hear Obama, his surrogates and a lot of his supporters say something along the lines of, "HELL YES, WE'RE SOCIALISTS!!! WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO ABOUT IT???" especially before the weekend so people can stew on it.
But that just ain't gonna happen.
Brass
Brassie,
Thank you for your response. I was, indeed asking Xavier for his honest take on the idea of American Socialism in this time.
I was raised listening to the fear factor of socialism ( the generation of my father-a right wing father)...thus, I feel it appropriate at this time to inquire within. The details offered here on the board give me food for thought, and I find it refreshing to learn about the truth of socialism according to folks like you.
I do worry that Americans will turn into a culture of ---if it aint workin' throw that sucker out with the muddy bath water--mentality.
There can't be a complete perfection point in any "ism"....
Can there not be a more workable system with a consolidation of effort?
-
Brassie,
Thank you for your response. I was, indeed asking Xavier for his honest take on the idea of American Socialism in this time.
I was raised listening to the fear factor of socialism ( the generation of my father-a right wing father)...thus, I feel it appropriate at this time to inquire within. The details offered here on the board give me food for thought, and I find it refreshing to learn about the truth of socialism according to folks like you.
I do worry that Americans will turn into a culture of ---if it aint workin' throw that sucker out with the muddy bath water--mentality.
There can't be a complete perfection point in any "ism"....
Can there not be a more workable system with a consolidation of effort?
Cindy,
I think there most definitely can be a workable consolidated system if all the parties involved are willing to relinquish some of their ideological tenets for the better good. More on that in a minute.
Were you around several years ago when I was constantly trying to convince everyone in 3DHS that we should embrace an RBE (resource-based economy)? Seriously? I dedicated several months of my 3DHS airtime to constantly trying to tweak it, massage it, better explain it, modify it in any way I could to accommodate as many of the complaints about political and economic system that came to be known (often mockingly) as the RBE in here.
Perhaps I was obsessed (hard-harded, a true-believer, idealistic, whatever) with the idea but that's just me. I wanted it to work because I loved the whole idea but no matter what I said, how I posited it, no matter how many questions I asked of everyone here (and others no longer here), I was always shot down, dismissed and never ONCE, not ONCE, Cindy, did one person every attempt to discuss the idea with me in any constructive manner because it was "socialism" or "communism".
Eventually, in order to find some kind of common ground, I altered the economic concept to be a blend of capitalism and socialism. I tentatively called it a Brass Economy because brass is actually an alloy of copper and zinc, a blend if you will. Again, the idea never got any traction because everyone was so reticent to discuss anything that had anything to do with socialism.
I've drawn parallel after parallel with these two systems with the current system we actually live with every day but those parallels were never even discussed or debated beyond, "you're a moron" or "you don't know how the world works" or "that's socialism".
Ironically, I often stated that the only way that people might be open to a more socialist point of view is if we have a large scale financial meltdown (something like a total market crash).
Now, here we are. Meltdown city. And though almost everyone here was against the bailout, it appears that the nation is moving to being a little easier with the idea of socialism. That is indicated by the way Obama continues to lead in polls while McCain and Palin and all surrogates are screaming that he is a socialist at every opportunity.
Brass
-
We can quibble about the size of the safety net, but all i have heard over the last eight years is about government encroachment on privacy and property rights.
And where the government is in charge of it all, ie in a socialist state where "they" own the means of production, your rights fall down the tubes.
It's funny about all the whining about Bush and wiretaps on calls originating from the middle east, yet nary a peep about the attorney general of the state of Ohio using government computers and government databases to check out this renegade Joe the Plumber.
If Obama were sincere about redistribution of wealth he would not be promising to cut taxes on 95% of working Americans, he should be telling them he is going to raise taxes on everyone. Every single breathing soul who has a dime in his or her pocket. It's all for the common good ya know.
And when the state has all the wealth, then it can worry about who gets what.
-
Yes, Brass, I was here when you shared your idea. I remember the folks here, albeit like dead beats in a saloon...d'oh...
but back then the idea of a message board was so new, a lot of people thought they could say whatever came out of mouth and onto the other person's sleeve----giving no mind...and no matter as to how it might have hurt.
Now adays we are all more tolerant and less likely to put a bastardly spin on someone's thoughts....well, at least I haven't been bashed as I probably would have been by now, if it were 7 years ago. (I had just joined after 9-11)
Anyway, remember the gentleman who was in his 70's, I think? I think his name was Ray. I should remember because he was an artist and he sent me and my father some of his drawings. He was a good soul. I enjoyed reading him on the board, but he too was hit pretty heavy; the bullies in town.
He once told me that your idea was at least worth a thought. His ideas were somewhere along the lines of Pat Buchannen http://wordpress.com/tag/pat-buchannen/ (http://wordpress.com/tag/pat-buchannen/)
So, now I would like to read what you have to say about your idea, Brass....sincerely.
Fill me in as if you wanted me to share this with my students====a sort of student friendly approach, if you will.
Not that I would do that, but I need to understand what you have to offer...I am willing to listen. I am a newbie when it comes to much of the economic discussions around here, and that's why I enjoy learning more than posting.
Bt just posted something here, and he too has a lot to teach someone like me.
As I read you both, I can just see the two of you coming together as talking heads in a meeting on wall street; :o
Seriously, I would love to hear you both talk about the ideas you have. ...Point/counter point.
-
Anyway, remember the gentleman who was in his 70's, I think? I think his name was Ray.
Is that the guy who claimed that Katrina was caused by government experiments with a weather control machine gone awry?
-
Were you around several years ago when I was constantly trying to convince everyone in 3DHS that we should embrace an RBE (resource-based economy)? Seriously? I dedicated several months of my 3DHS airtime to constantly trying to tweak it, massage it, better explain it, modify it in any way I could to accommodate as many of the complaints about political and economic system that came to be known (often mockingly) as the RBE in here.
Brass
Oh man !
That was some fun stuff!
-
Anyway, remember the gentleman who was in his 70's, I think? I think his name was Ray.
Is that the guy who claimed that Katrina was caused by government experiments with a weather control machine gone awry?
LOL...I don't know, but I liked Ray. He was quirky, but a kind man.
-
Anyway, remember the gentleman who was in his 70's, I think? I think his name was Ray.
Is that the guy who claimed that Katrina was caused by government experiments with a weather control machine gone awry?
LOL...I don't know, but I liked Ray. He was quirky, but a kind man.
Was "Ray" his screen name?
-
No, it wasn't. And I can't remember his screen name.
He had a large family of girls and was a believer in God...that I remember about him.
I'll have to go look at the information he sent to me and get back to you.
-
His handle had the word "art" or arc ' in it. That I can remember.
-
His handle had the word "art" or arc ' in it. That I can remember.
Yeah, that was the guy that had the weather machine theory. And quite a few other "out there" theories.
-
His handle had the word "art" or arc ' in it. That I can remember.
Yeah, that was the guy that had the weather machine theory. And quite a few other "out there" theories.
Well, he did have his out there theories, this I know...but he was so very nice.
Good artist, Too.
Good to hear that he was on as recently as the issue of Katrina. It's been since 03 that we had kept in touch.
-
Arklineart
-
Arklineart
Gracia, BT.