DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Brassmask on November 26, 2008, 03:14:40 PM
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It might delight some of you to know that there is a brewing schism at the DailyKos.
It has developed into a We Can Question vs We Can Give Him A Chance type of debate. ( http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/26/81449/747/575/666595 )
As it stands right now, everyone is still onboard the Obama Express full steam ahead but there are also lots of folks like me who are "guarded but hopeful".
There is great concern that he has hired too many old hands from the Clinton era. Some feel that it is a good thing and defend his choices as being the best and brightest. Some feel that he has been hoodwinked and he's going to be made a figurehead by the Clintons (who many feel are just left of center neo-cons).
Personally, I'm holding out till after the inauguration then if he screws the left over, it will be Katy bar the door.
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Here we go. Bush was a figurehead, Obama's a figurehead. It's all a conspiracy........blah....blah....blah.
What did you think, everyone was going to be wearing tie-die's again, and the Lion was going to lay down with the Lamb?
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I agree Brass I bet some on the Left are going crazy....
How can they be pleased that Obama the man of "Change"
first picks Joe Biden as VP who voted for the War in Iraq,
then picks Hillary Clinton who also voted for the War in Iraq
as his Secretary of State, is picking all the Clinton retreads for his cabinet
and also just decided to the keep the George Bush Secretary of Defense
who runs the war in Iraq? Hasn't he also decided to not raise taxes on the
wealthy and may keep the Bush tax cuts in place?
some change! ::)
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Here we go. Bush was a figurehead, Obama's a figurehead. It's all a conspiracy........blah....blah....blah.
What did you think, everyone was going to be wearing tie-die's again, and the Lion was going to lay down with the Lamb?
You know. For a moment there, yeah, I kinda did.
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I agree Brass I bet some on the Left are going crazy....
How can they pleased that Obama the man of "Change"
first picks Joe Biden as VP who voted for the War in Iraq,
then picks Hillary Clinton who also voted for the War in Iraq
as his Secretary of State, is picking all the Clinton retreads for his cabinet
and also just decided to the keep the George Bush Secretary of Defense
who runs the war in Iraq? Hasn't he also decided to not raise taxes on the
wealthy and may keep the Bush tax cuts in place?
some change! ::)
Exactly.
Now, if they turn out to be the machine guns that he uses to mow down all the nation's troubles then I'll be for them but I'm wary at this point.
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Obama is a calculating cautious sort.
He will be his own man.
The trouble is he might not be the man you or those at the Kos thought he was.
The question then is that on you or him.
"I am a blank screen upon which people project their own wishes"
Barack Obama
Sit back and enjoy the ride. If you get 1/10th of what you wanted from the man you are ahead of the game.
Take care of your family, teach your children well, be grateful that you have a wife who loves you, a job to go to, a piece of land to grow things and the joy and wonderment of watching Benjamin evolve.
You don't need any President to do that.
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Exactly right.
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I say we shouldn't impeach him before he takes office.
Really, give the guy a chance.
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Amen, Lanya.
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I think that is safe to say that Obama thinks very seriously of himself as a representative of Black men everywhere. There are very, very few Black men that have excelled at running any country. I can think only of Mandela as one who has actually done a decent job. Mandela and perhaps a couple of presidents of Botswana, but no major country has ever in all of history has had a Black leader. Nigeria is the most populous Black country on the planet, and Liberia and Ethiopia are the oldest, and mostly their leaders have been extremely effective examples of how NOT to run a country.
I really don't think that he wants to screw up in any way. History is watching him more carefully than anyone in recent memory, and the US as well, as it is pretty much unknown for the son of a foreigner to be elected to office in any of the G-7 or even G-20 countries. I think Sarkozi's parents were French citizens.
Juniorbush obviously wanted to finish the "unfinished" first Iraq War, by throwing Saddam out. He demonstrated precisely why this was a really awful idea, and also taught a negative lesson about how NOT to overthrow one regime in an alien country and replace it.
As I see it, we can only wish Obama well, because our fortunes, like his, depend on his success, no matter what our political orientation is.
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I think that is safe to say that Obama thinks very seriously of himself as a representative of Black men everywhere. There are very, very few Black men that have excelled at running any country.
I really don't think that he wants to screw up in any way
I don't think his racial self identity has anything to do with his cautious calculating mannerisms.
If anything he is post racial.
And to be honest if he isn't i would be extremely disappointed.
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Was Mandela " postracial"?
I observe that although the ANC claims to be "non racial", they have yet to include any Whites, Asians and I don't think even "coloreds" in the party hierarchy.
It's never going to be that Americans will think of race as they now think of eye color. Was Nixon blue eyed or brown eyed? How about Carter? Truman? Biden?
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Was Mandela " postracial"?
Was Mandela half white? Did he grow up in Hawaii, where i would guess the percentage of multiracial kids far exceeds the national average?
Obama isn't Mandela. Different time, different place. And most probably a different attitude.
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As I see it, we can only wish Obama well, because our fortunes, like his, depend on his success, no matter what our political orientation is.
That is very well said, XO.
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Strange how that sure wasn't the train of thought when Bush was elected in 2000 :-\
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Strange how that sure wasn't the train of thought when Bush was elected in 2000 :-\
Perhaps not, but we were also in an entirely different situation, coming out of a series of rather prosperous Clinton years.
And I am not saying that Clinton was or was not responsible for the prosper or the current decline, nor that Bush is or is not responsible for the current decline. I realize that it's more complicated than all of that. But historically, people will always credit the president in office for the state of economy when he leaves it.
I think that people are very emotional about their politics right now, because people are suffering. Plain and simple. In a sense it's just holding onto optimism, and playing the hand we were dealt (or dealt ourselves). I believe it would be the attitude right now even if McCain were in office.
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I think that is safe to say that Obama thinks very seriously of himself as a representative of Black men everywhere. There are very, very few Black men that have excelled at running any country. I can think only of Mandela as one who has actually done a decent job. Mandela and perhaps a couple of presidents of Botswana, but no major country has ever in all of history has had a Black leader. Nigeria is the most populous Black country on the planet, and Liberia and Ethiopia are the oldest, and mostly their leaders have been extremely effective examples of how NOT to run a country.
I really don't think that he wants to screw up in any way. History is watching him more carefully than anyone in recent memory, and the US as well, as it is pretty much unknown for the son of a foreigner to be elected to office in any of the G-7 or even G-20 countries. I think Sarkozi's parents were French citizens.
Juniorbush obviously wanted to finish the "unfinished" first Iraq War, by throwing Saddam out. He demonstrated precisely why this was a really awful idea, and also taught a negative lesson about how NOT to overthrow one regime in an alien country and replace it.
As I see it, we can only wish Obama well, because our fortunes, like his, depend on his success, no matter what our political orientation is.
I hope not ,I need a good president too.
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its not just DailyKos.....
(http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/img/global/tol-logo.gif)
November 27, 2008
Barack Obama forced to deny abandoning "change" amid insider appointments
By Tim Reid in Chicago
Barack Obama defended his decision to pack his new Cabinet with veteran Washington insiders and former Clinton officials yesterday after a campaign in which he promised change.
The President-elect responded after naming the former Federal Reserve chairman Paul Volcker, a veteran of the Carter and Reagan Administrations, as the head of a new economic panel to stop ?groupthink? infecting his inner circle of White House financial advisers.
There have been mounting concerns, particularly from the liberal wing of his Democratic Party, that Mr Obama has pivoted sharply to the centre-right with his choice of top Cabinet posts.
His main economic advisers have close ties to the Clinton White House and Mr Obama has already chosen Hillary Clinton to be his Secretary of State. His chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, once served Bill Clinton, and more appointments still to be announced will include a slew of officials who served in the most recent Democratic Administration.
"What we are going to do is combine experience with fresh thinking,? Mr Obama said at his third press conference in as many days. He said he would be foolish, at such a ?critical time in our history?, to pick people who ?had no experience in Washington whatsoever?.
He added: ?What I don?t want to do is somehow suggest that because you somehow served in the last [Clinton]administration you are barred from serving again.?
Mr Obama said he was forming an economic recovery advisory board, with Mr Volcker to head it, to give independent economic advice from outside the White House. ?Sometimes policymaking in Washington can become a little bit too ingrown, a little bit too insular,? Mr Obama said. ?The walls of the echo chamber can sometimes keep out fresh voices and new ways of thinking.?
Mr Obama said the board, which would report to him regularly, would be filled with individuals from diverse sectors of the economy and would be government outsiders, ?to challenge some of our assumptions, to make sure that we are not just doing the same old thing all the time?.
Mr Volcker, 81, a legendary economic figure who has been a close adviser to Mr Obama, was appointed Chairman of the Federal Reserve by Jimmy Carter in 1979, a time of runaway inflation and high unemployment. He tamed inflation by raising interest rates; a highly controversial move, but one that was later credited with reviving the economy. He was retained in his post by President Reagan.
Mr Obama told anxious Americans that ?help is on the way? for the beleaguered economy, but he again gave warning that it would take time to revive the nation?s fortunes.
He spoke as more grim economic news emerged, and as the federal deficit was revealed to be on course to surge to well over $1 trillion (?650 billion).
On Tuesday the Bush Administration announced that it was going to spend another $800 billion ? in addition to the $700 billion Wall Street rescue package passed by Congress last month ? to unclog credit markets and help homeowners threatened with repossession.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5239776.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1 (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5239776.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1)
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Strange how that sure wasn't the train of thought when Bush was elected in 2000 :-\
Perhaps not, but we were also in an entirely different situation, coming out of a series of rather prosperous Clinton years.
And in actuality, we were going into a recession at the end of his tenure as well, which was greatly worsened following 911. And we managed to pull ourselves out of that. I'm not trying to be arguementative here Miss Henny, the point being, we've had Government ever since this country was founded. How is it, that over all these years, we still have poverty, we still have economic woes, we still have homeless, we still have unemployment?? Yes, you're absolutely right, in that the country is very emotional with their politics. I'd even go so far as to a huge throng of folks have discarded reason for emotion. We had our problems in 2000, which included an economy that was sputtering, but when Bush was elected, it was wall to wall horror by the left. There was prescious little "wishing Bush well, because our fortunes, like his, depend on his success, no matter what our political orientation is."
And with the bigger point that being, that despite all the "hope" folks have for Obama, Government has had 200+years to fix these problems, and we still have them. The idea that The One will bring harmony and fixing to all that is wrong in the country is a pipedream. The best a President can do is try to minimize the damage caused by excessive Government. The worst a president can do is lay claim that the Government will be able to fix all the country's woes by simply bringing the smartest people together to "challenge how we do things", while taking from those he claims can afford it, and give it to those who he claims needs it
THAT's why I have no aspirations of hoping Obama fails, merely the reasoned objectivity, given his rhetoric and pledges, of expecting failure, on a grand scale. Let's hope, for the sake of the country, I'm wrong
I think that people are very emotional about their politics right now, because people are suffering. Plain and simple. In a sense it's just holding onto optimism, and playing the hand we were dealt (or dealt ourselves). I believe it would be the attitude right now even if McCain were in office.
No, there'd I'd have to vehemently disagree with you. If McCain were to have won, you'd have mass riots and further proclaimations of how another election was supposedly stolen, that racism is running rampant, and not one shred of wishing McCain well, from the likes of those claiming the need for it now
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No, there'd I'd have to vehemently disagree with you. If McCain were to have won, you'd have mass riots and further proclaimations of how another election was supposedly stolen, that racism is running rampant, and not one shred of wishing McCain well, from the likes of those claiming the need for it now
I don't think that would have been the case. McCain was moderate enough that many really sat on the fence on that choice, less of course the more conservative folk. But it's just my opinion, and probably rooted in the fact that I also liked McCain an awful lot myself.
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But historically, people will always credit the president in office for the state of economy when he leaves it.
Not around here. When the tech bubble was bursting in mid to late 2000, Bush got the blame for that as well - it was claimed by several here that the bubble burst "because it looked like Bush might get elected". Had nothing to do with Clinton, who was still in office.
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Strange how that sure wasn't the train of thought when Bush was elected in 2000
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Elected? The people didn't choose him. The Supreme Court foisted his incompetent ass upon us.
Never did anyone dream what an utter disaster he would be. But his experience was nil, his main campaign promise was to bribe people with a check.
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Elected? The people didn't choose him. The Supreme Court foisted his incompetent ass upon us.
Nonsense. He won Fla. and thus the necessary electoral votes.
You know this. Why do you insist in lying?
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"You know this. Why do you insist in lying?"
because thats the only way to connct the lunacy dots
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Again THE PEOPLE did not elect Juniorbush, He was selected by the Electoral College, based on a partisan decision by the Supreme Court. You know this. Why do YOU insist on lying?
This was in response to why Obama was received by admiration, but Juniorbush was not.
I remember James Baker coming to Florida filled with hate and stuffed with subpoenas, and Tom Delay's thugs coming down here to stop the votes from being counted. Juniorbush;s "victory" was nothing to be admired.
We would have been many times better off with President Gore.
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I remember James Baker coming to Florida filled with hate and stuffed with subpoenas, and Tom Delay's thugs coming down here to stop the votes from being counted. Juniorbush;s "victory" was nothing to be admired.
You don't remember Gore's lawyers, which were sent into Florida first?
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Perhaps we should give the guy a chance first. After all, he isn't even in office yet.
He obviously has been presented with a massive array of "challenges" and is doing his best to assemble a team that will be successful. And, he is trying to hit the ground running. So far, I see this as a positive methodology. Delay can only make the challneges more severe.
Bush will not leave these two terms of office with much in the way of positives in my mind and I voted for him twice. It is sometimes amazing to me that the election numbers were not even worse!
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The people never elect the President directly. You know this. Why do you insist on making statements you know are untrue.
The Electoral votes for Florida were awarded to Bush. Thus he won.
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It is sometimes amazing to me that the election numbers were not even worse!
I did not see Bush's name on the ballot where i voted.
Perhaps enough people were smart enough to know that McCain was not Bush running under an alias to make the election closer than you thought it would be if Bush had run undisguised.
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I think that many people voted AGAINST Bush's policies and Mickey Mouse could have won if he were a Democrat. Just my view but the economy tanking in the past year or so certainly hurt the Republicans (even though these actions take a while to appear; like an iceberg the problems are deep-seated but only appear when it is "too late") as did other policies of Bush such as this ill-advised occupation of Iraq. I didn't say "invasion", only "occupation".
Now this is not to imply that Obama isn't capable; if he is only time will tell....
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The tip of the iceberg was subprime mortgages and the bundling of those into instruments that other financial institutions bought.
Who urged sub-prime lending?