DebateGate

My son Straypup just posted on FB to bury him at ground zero, facing away from Mecca, and install a urinal.  All I have to say about that is, that's gonna be one lo-o-o-ong line!

I thought I smelled something burning . . .

Can anybody tell me why I can only go so far down in a post before the screen starts scrolling back everytime I type a letter?  It makes it very difficult to post wen I cannot see what I am typing.  I'll bet this was a new feature designed to make me post smaller items - lol!

Gun Control.  Word Control. Thought Control.  Wealth Control.  Vote Control.  Government Control. Complete Control.

Uh oh, looks like I'm out of control.

I must be an enemy of the people.

I have no statistics about what percentage of Mormons living in Clay and Jackson Counties were polygamous, but it was widely believed that it was a common thing.

I had no idea that the Disciples of Christ (IE the Christian Church) was anything other than a mainstream Protestant Church, like the Methodists, Presbyterians, and Episcopals. They do not use the Book of Mormon.

No, no.  I did not mean to imply that the Church of Christ (DoC) was affiliated with the LDS movement.  It is not.  That DoC Key Club advisor answered my questions about Mormonism (raised because I met my wife in Key Club and I respected his opinion) as objectively as possible, but he made it clear that he did not think much of the doctrines.  He was a very good, intelligent man and a good Christian. 

The designation "Church of Christ" is pretty generic.  Part of the reason the name of our church was changed was probably to avoid confusion (and potential legal issues) with other non-related organizations who used that name.  The Disciples of Christ use that name, but it is not due to any historical affiliation with the LDS movement.   The reason for our rather lengthy designation is to clarify who we are.  We believe we are the church of Jesus Christ.  We believe we are the very same church that Christ started during his mortal ministry.  We believe that, over time, that church became corrupted and a restoration (as opposed to a reformation) was required.  That happened through the Prophet Joseph Smith.  The "Latter Day Saints" part came as a clarification.  It differentiates the church in this dispensation (time period) from the church in Christ's mortal dispensation.  "Saints" in this context only means followers of Christ, as the term is often used in New Testament epistles.  "Latter Days" means now - what we believe to be close to the end of times - as opposed to (perhaps) "Ancient Days."   As an example then, if you ask if Peter was a Mormon, the answer is "yes" and "no.'  He WAS a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, so yes, but not the restored church, which has gained the designation "Mormon" from the world (it is not part of our church name) so "no."   That is analogous to the question "Was Moses a Christian?"   The answer to that, for similar reasons, is "yes" and "no" in that, he was a member of the Church of Jesus Christ (who is the God of the Old Testament) but he did not live in the times when the church gained the designation "Christian" after the actual atonement took place.  It's all semantics.

As to the perceptions of polygamy, how many people think Muslims are terrorists today?  Though the polygamy issue was not fully openly embraced by the church until Salt Lake, it is quite likely rumor had gotten about.  There were many early defections even among top leaders of the church in the Ohio/Missouri period.  Many of those who left the church turned against it, and reporting such a practice as polygamy would likely have been part of the efforts to warn potential converts.  So I wouldn't be surprised if people knew about it in Missouri.  The fact that it was practiced by only a small percentage of the church (especially at that time) would have been irrelevent.  The perception would have been much like the perception of Islam today - if the church leaders are teaching it the followers will comply.  Of course, what is not commonly known is that one could not just go out and pick a few girls and tie the knot.  You had to be "called" by church leaders to marry another woman.  (This process is how we select people for any church duty.  I was, for example, "called" to be a Gospel Doctrine teacher.  That is my current "calling.")  So the idea that Mormons were going to steal the daughters was not really accurate.  (In fairness, if a young lady was converted, the chance of her becoming a "sister-wife" in some family was certainly there. So the idea was not totally irrational.)  But rational, accurate analysis is not the hallmark of mob reactions.  It is so in this day of mass communication, and it was much more likely in a time without such media resources. 

Where the Islamic analogy breaks down, of course, is that our church leaders were, in fact, actually endorsing the practice, though not yet openly.  Only a fringe element of religious teachers in Islam are actually endorsing a direct violent interpretation of Islam.    But there are still people who believe Mormons practice polygamy to this day.  In fact, there are still people who believe Mormons just hang around in cults in Utah and dress like it's the nineteenth century.  A Fedex guy that I see every day was shocked to find out that a very popular local newspaper reporter is a Mormon (and that I was LDS too).  He was really shocked when I told him that there are three congregations of Mormons in our town.  This is a place where old order Mennonites are a very large part of the community, and a Horse and Buggy is a common sight.  So I guess he expected me to be dressed like Brigham Young instead of wearing business casual and fixing broken printers.  Whaddayagonnado?

Out of curiosity, what foods do the Seventh Day Adventists prohibit?

Adventists are vegetarians. I believe they also refrain from tobacco and alcohol. You can Google for more.

Here is why Mormons were unwelcome in NW Missouri according to Missourians:

In 1812, there was a huge earthquake in SE Missouri, the area we Missourians call the Bootheel. The town of New Madrid was destroyed, the Mississippi was out of banks for months,and many farms were ruined. The Territorial government told those who had lost their farms that they could move to NW Missouri, where the Indians had recently evacuated. So a lot of settlers went to what are now Jackson and Clay Counties and settled. Because they were a contentious bunch, the followers of Andrew Jackson settled in Jackson County and named the county seat Independence. The settlers who were Whigs settled in Clay County and named it after Henry Clay, and their county seat Liberty. They were mostly illiterate, and staked off the land and settled in, any not feeling any need to register anything. Everyone knew everyone, and everyone was armed and dangerous, as hunting game was a major way of getting food for the table.

 A decade and change later, the Mormons came along. In 1831, Joseph Smith declared that NW Missouri was the new Promised Land, and of course, he did not mention that it was promised to the settled squatters who were already there: he meant that it had been promised to the Mormons, who were largely literate and went to the courthouse and registered their claims.

Many of their claims were to land inhabited by the squatter refugees from the New Madrid Flood. They did not accept that God wanted them to be driven off by a bunch of smartypants antislavery Mormons. When a Mormon popped in to ask some farmer for the hand of his daughter to be his second, third, fourth or fifth wife, that was was ill received. Mormons hunted and depleted the game. The lifestyle that the settlers were accustomed to was threatened.

What a settler did when a Mormon tried to drive him off his land was the very same thing that happened when some Indian staged a raid: he took out his gun and started plugging away. Eventually they decided to give the Mormons their own county, Caldwell County. But the Mormons kept getting new converts and spilled over the borders of their "reservation". Mormons were singularly unpopular and became so unwelcome that a man named Lilburn Boggs was elected in 1836 on the platform that the Mormons should be expelled from the state,and those who refused to leave could be shot on sight. It became legal to shoot Mormons, and the Mormons, not wishing to be shot, lit out for Illinois.

Joseph Smith preached that Jesus was going to return to a specific spot North of Clay County. He has yet to make an appearance. In 1983, I think oit was, my father, who was Recorder of Deeds of Clay County as well as President of the county historical society, got the state to allow the Mormons to put up a roadside marker at Adam-ondi-Ahman, in Daviss County, supposedly the site of the Garden of Eden and the spot Jesus is supposed to appear at whenever he gets around for it. We no longer shoot Mormons -- not just the Reorganized LDS buy Salt Lake Mormons -- in Missouri. In return, Mormons no longer try to register lands on which squatters have settled, being as there are no squatters left, and Mormons no longer try to marry local girls to be their second, third or umpteenth wives.

It is hard to argue that chewing tobacco is a rather nauseating habit, especially when you include the habit of spitting tobacco juice on the floor.

Thanks for the info.  As you may guess, we would dispute the accuracy of the "Missourian" version on several points, but that's life.  btw, you might be interested to know that the Reorganized church no longer exists by that name.  It has split into two factions:  The Community of Christ and the Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  The former is the larger and more liberal of the two and retains the rights to the RLDS name and properties.  The latter (NPI) is the more conservative and smaller group.  Interestingly, the CofC has finally admitted that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.  Only took 'em a century and a half!   

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/15/AR2010101507013.html


Hehehehe...

What did ye old publisist say?

"Just spell it right"?

This guy can't win.  His name is actually "Whitney."  So the original story, which contained the mistake "Rich Whitey," was about the first mistake - leaving the "n" out of his name on the ballot. (To clarify, the ballot should read "R. Whitney" and instead reads "R. Whitey."  The AP reported that the ballot reads "Rich Whitey" which is a beautiful irony.)  All of this makes any correction to the ballot moot.  This guy is forever "Rich Whitey."

This might be a tragedy for some other candidate but lets face it, he's a Green Party candidate.  Nobody's gonna take him seriously anyway.

Who says color doesn't matter - lol!

Mormons I know avoid Coca-Cola, because it has caffeine, and they are forbidden to take cafffeine or other potentially addictive stimulants.

Of course, they could never be the experts of Non-Mormon RR or Kramer the Moron.

Continue being weary of sugar substitutes, Kramer. That is good advice.

Many Mormons, such as your friends, CHOOSE to avoid Coca-cola, but that is by way of choice, not commandment.  RR's post was correct, and he supported his statements with a link that led to the official LDS church site scripture section.  We are not FORBIDDEN to take caffeine.  We are forbidden coffee and tea.  RR may not be an expert on Mormonism, but I'm pretty well-informed on the subject and RR got it right. I have taught that lesson in Gospel Essentials and Gospel Doctrine class (not to mention teen classes and Priesthood) on many occasions.  I wrote my post before I read his, and you will note they state virtually the same thing.  Coke and other such things fall under Joseph Smith's oft-quoted philosophy that it is not meet that we should be instructed in all things.  He also said, when asked how he governed such a large body of people "I teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves."   This is a common item of discussion, especially with newer church members.  I wrote a parody called "Thank Gosh, I'm a Mormon Boy" in which I use the line "feel a little guilty if I drink a bit of coke" and it gets a big laugh each time. 

There's nothing at all wrong with your friends making healthier choices.  That is both in keeping with the spirit of the Word of Wisdom and just a generally good life choice.  But they are not "forbidden" to drink coke.  And I know a lot of Mormon women.  Try to forbid them chocolate and they will one day find you lying in a gutter smothered in green jello.