Author Topic: Romney All Wet on Ships  (Read 1336 times)

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hnumpah

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Romney All Wet on Ships
« on: October 29, 2012, 10:25:04 PM »
Romney All Wet on Ships

The Romney campaign is moving full steam ahead with a new radio ad that repeats a misleading debate claim by Romney that the size of the Navy’s fleet is the smallest it has been since 1917. The number of ships is actually up a bit since 2007 under President George W. Bush.

Moreover, Navy officials say it’s silly to compare the size of the fleet in 1917 with that of today, because the mission and capabilities of today’s nuclear-powered aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines are vastly different than that of the gunboats and coal-powered dreadnaughts of 1917, when the shift to oil power was just starting.
 
The radio ad is running in Florida and Virginia — both are swing states but also big ship-building states. The newest nuclear-powered carrier, the USS Gerald R. Ford, is currently under construction in Newport New Shipbuilding in Virginia, for example.

The radio ads use an edited version of Romney’s comments during the third and final presidential debate: “Our Navy now is smaller than any time since 1917. The Navy said they needed 313 ships to carry out their mission; we’re now down to 285. … That’s unacceptable to me.”
 
There were 342 total active ships as of April 6, 1917, when the U.S. entered World War I (the number stood at 245 in December 1916). And there were 282 active duty ships as of April 2012, according to a Congressional Research Service report in August. That’s down slightly from the Naval History and Heritage Command’s count of 285 as of September 2011. However, 282 ships is the same number in service during George W. Bush’s last year in office, and a slight increase over the number in 2007 — 278 — when the size of the fleet was at its lowest since the early 20th century.

For a bit of historical perspective, the number of active U.S. ships peaked in 1945 at 6,768 in response to World War II. The most recent spike — 594 — came during the presidency of Ronald Reagan in 1987, and the number has been gradually tapering down ever since.
 
The Romney campaign argues that despite some small fluctuations, the number of ships has remained relatively static over the last several years — and that this cumulative level is at its lowest point since 1917. The Romney campaign points to comments made by former chief of naval operations, Adm. Gary Roughead, in November 2010 that “
  • ur Navy today consists of 288 ships. It is also the smallest Navy we have been since 1916 when our global interests and responsibilities weren’t quite what they are today.”

 
It is true that the number of ships in the U.S. fleet is now lower than the 1917 level. But that has been true since 1999.
 
And the fact is — as even the Wall Street Journal noted in an editorial arguing for the more robust ramp-up of ship-building proposed by Romney  — that “in fairness to President Obama, he has slightly increased the size of the fleet.”
 
Romney claims that “the Navy said they needed 313 ships to carry out their mission; we’re now down to 285.” There’s some truth to that. In 2005, during the Bush administration, Navy officials had planned to increase the size of the fleet to 313 ships by 2020 to meet the Navy’s “force structure” needs. Under Obama’s budget, that has been scaled back to a goal of 300 by 2019. That is still an increase over the current number of 282, but future ship-building plans could be reduced if Congress allows currently scheduled automatic budget cuts to take effect.
 
Obama’s Navy secretary, Ray Mabus, now says the Navy can meet its global defense needs with 300 ships, based on the new defense strategy released in January. Mabus told the Washington Post in February that most of the ships retired early would be old cruisers, and that most of the ships whose construction will be delayed are smaller, support vessels.
 
“We’re losing some ships that are not as capable as the new ships coming in,” Mabus told the Washington Post. “We’ve got enough to meet the war plans with what we’ve got under contract.”
 
Critics of the plan, such as those at the conservative Heritage Foundation, argued the new strategy “validated pre-ordained defense cuts. In essence, the Administration set a goal of slashing the defense budget, and then crafted a strategy justifying such draconian cuts.”
 
The debate about how big the Navy should be has been going on for centuries. “[W]ithout a Respectable Navy, Alas America!” declared John Paul Jones — in 1776. Opinions differ now, just as they did then, both as to how many ships the country needs, and how many it can afford. So we won’t try to settle either question here.
 
But the fact remains, Romney’s claim is inaccurate. The Navy is bigger now than it was under Bush. And the capability of the Navy’s ships — as well as the Navy’s mission — is much different than in 1917.
 
– Robert Farley, with Lucas Isakowitz
http://factcheck.org/2012/10/romney-all-wet-on-ships/
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Romney All Wet on Ships
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2012, 12:22:15 AM »
This was just some silly statistic some shipyard builder slipped to Romney, who knows about as much about ships and the Navy as he does about how to tie-dye tank tops.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Romney All Wet on Ships
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2012, 12:32:20 AM »
In 1917 the British maintained the best Navy, and because they did the US didn't need so much strength.

The British Navy is much less capable now  and because you have to have a certain number of ships to support a certain number of patrolls when the US reduces ship numbers , some patrolls just never get conducted.

Which is fine if you are a Pirate.

If you want a measurement of how much is too little , check the resurgence of Piracy, which had almost disappeared for more than 200 years, by that measure our Navy was more capable in 1830, when we could deal with Pirates well enough to suppress them.

I am not being facetious, the right measure is not the yardstick of the past, but the yardstick of the present .

First define the Navy's OBJECTIVES , we must have a navy that can handle the objectives we have for it.

Last I heard our sailors were becoming used to longer and longer deployments because we are trying to maintain the obligations we negotiated with our allies back when we had more navy.

 
So... we either need more navy or fewer friends.

hnumpah

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Re: Romney All Wet on Ships
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2012, 12:36:21 AM »
Then why did we have fewer ships under Bush? Comparatively, Obama has expanded the Navy, though not by much.
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Plane

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Re: Romney All Wet on Ships
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2012, 12:44:32 AM »
Then why did we have fewer ships under Bush? Comparatively, Obama has expanded the Navy, though not by much.


I am not certain that this answer is right , but let me give it to you anyway.

It takes a long time to build a ship.
Also count the time it takes to paln for and design it.

This is an effect known as lag time.

It is not likly that any ship called for or designed during the Obama administration has had its Kneel laid yet. All present increases would be from a few years back, like five or six.

If this isn't right , then shipwrights are faster than I remember.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Romney All Wet on Ships
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2012, 12:45:49 AM »
Recent piracy is the result of weak or nonexistent governments in Somalia and some of the Indonesian and Philippine islands. Piracy has been reduced by well over half since Obama was elected. They are using satellites and drones effectively to deal with them.

The US does not need the Navy it had in 1916, or the Navy it had in 1945. We should not be pissing away money on expensive ships when the main goal is to provide jobs for the shipyards.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Romney All Wet on Ships
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2012, 12:51:02 AM »
If you do not know what the mission of the Navy is , what are we talking about?

Our sailors are being sent to sea for long deployments and rotation back to sea is short, this really indicates that we are streatching our resorces.

Perhap it would do just as well to renegotiate all those treatys that obligate us to patroll so much territory for our allys, are we trying to drop some of those obligations?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Romney All Wet on Ships
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2012, 01:01:14 AM »
Perhap it would do just as well to renegotiate all those treatys that obligate us to patroll so much territory for our allys, are we trying to drop some of those obligations?

-------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like a good plan to me.

The Ecuadoreans refused to renew the base at Manta, and the Americans left. I hear the local barmaids were unhappy about that, but so far, I have heard nothing about how this country or Ecuador is even a teensy bit worse off.

I suspect that a lot of the Navy's "duties" are of a similar ilk.

The Japanese can certainly do a better job of patrolling their area.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

hnumpah

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Re: Romney All Wet on Ships
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2012, 01:02:08 AM »
Long deployments? Gad, we can't have that.

How long was the average deployment aboard ship about the time of the Viet Nam war? As I recall, the average was 6 months aboard and 6 months ashore, but I could be wrong, because I wasn't in the Navy. I was in the Army, where I spent 13 months straight overseas on an unaccompanied (no wife or family allowed) hardship tour.
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Plane

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Re: Romney All Wet on Ships
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2012, 01:36:33 AM »
http://hamptonroads.com/node/234321

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2012/03/navy-chief-of-naval-operations-operational-tempo-032612w/

Quote
The Navy’s top officer says he’s not concerned by the fleet’s operational pace, even though ship deployments are becoming more frequent and longer, stretching out to what officials have described as the new norm of seven months and beyond.

Depending on ship class, routine deployments could last as long as 7½ months with a targeted dwell time of two months for every one month deployed, giving crews and ships the needed downtime to reset between deployments, Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Jon Greenert told a group of defense reporters March 16.

But scheduled deployments are getting even longer, and the dwell-time goal isn’t being met in some cases. One of the latest examples is the aircraft carrier Enterprise, which departed March 11 for what officials expect to be a 7½-month cruise that comes eight months after returning from its previous six-month deployment. This short turnaround runs afoul of Greenert’s stated dwell-time benchmark.

Yea yea, and for staying nine months deployed they allow the ship to fly a special "whip" flag.
Probly as a warning to the people ashore when they finally get back.

This is the point, less ships, for a mission that is not reduced, does mean less effectiveness on mission and tougher duty for the enlisted.

If the world is really tired of the US enforceing the peace , there could be a UN Navy.

Of course if there were a UN Navy the US would pay for most of it.

hnumpah

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Re: Romney All Wet on Ships
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2012, 04:52:22 AM »
ROFL, we didn't even get a whip flag, all we got was a nice letter we could send home before we left to warn our families.

NOTICE OF RETURN

APO New York, NY  09133
Sinop, Turkey

Notice of solemn warning this _____ day of __________, 19_____ .

This notice is hereby given to the family, relatives, friends and lovers of ___________________ .

Very soon the above named person will be returning to the western world.  You will find said person in a state of dehydration ( the water shortage did occur ), demoralization ( a West Point NCOIC of MPs ), confused ( “Why didn’t I go to Canada?” ), and somewhat depraved ( what can you expect from a man without a woman for over a year? ).  He will be coming back to again join the ranks of humanity and civilization from which he was so easily snatched.  In making your joyous preparations to welcome him back to the rational world of no military, please take into consideration the crude environment to which he has been subjected for _____ days.  In a word, he might be a little ‘Asiatic”, suffering from Sinop fever and a little too much Hill.

Due to the facts just given, we are suggesting a few things that should make it easier for you to help during the rehabilitation period.  Do not, repeat do not make mention of his adventures in the Army, for they will only bring back painful memories and bad dreams for him.  Do not be alarmed if every other word is foul, for remember, he has been around lifers with IQ’s three points below that of a flat rock.  Show as much love and understanding as you can.  Do not be alarmed if he speaks three or four languages in one sentence.  Show no alarm if he asks why you served him hot food or food that tastes good.  If he seems a little afraid to talk to girls or women, do not worry.  This is only due to the fact that he has not for over a year.  Don’t let it shock you if, when he answers the phone, he says merhaba instead of hello, or allasmarladik for goodbye.

For the first few months, until he is housebroken, be especially watchful when he is in the company of young beautiful females.  He may have forgotten how to converse with them, but not what can be done with them.  His intentions would be sincere and honest but would be dishonorable anyway.  Do not take alarm if the police pull up to your house with him in the car looking puzzled and confused, for you see, he was only doing 60 MPH down Main Street, honking his horn and yelling profanity at the things or people that wouldn’t get out of his way quick enough.

In a relatively short time you may be able to teach him English again, and the ticket won’t cost too much.  Remember also not to be shocked if he doesn’t believe in the American Way anymore, and says to you that the President is a dope, for you shall know in your heart that he has found the world for what it is, and our country for what it is.  Underneath the gaunt, sad and cold exterior, you will find a decent and beautiful person.  Treasure this, as it is probably the only thing of value he has left.  Treat him well, for it is rough to be kicked in the face every day he was in the Army and still be sane.  He can still love.

Be sure to get the women, kids, dogs and normal pedestrians and drivers off the streets.  He is heading west on Pan Am Flight _____ on the _____ day of __________ in the year of our Lord 19_____.  He will be in New York the following day.

Lt. Col. Nutward
USASA ISNUTS
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BT

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Re: Romney All Wet on Ships
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2012, 10:05:03 AM »
Looks like his math is correct. 282 is smaller than 342.