ahhh...look at all the pouty children

[sirs]

Agreed. .... now demonstrate how people falsely placed will no longer be placed on said list

[Plane]

Hey the ACLU is not so slack as we might have thought.

The American Civil Liberties Union has voiced opposition to barring weapons sales to individuals listed on the current form of the No-Fly List, stating that: "There is no constitutional bar to reasonable regulation of guns, and the No Fly List could serve as one tool for it, but only with major reform."[26] Specifically, the ACLU's position is that the government's current redress process—the procedure by which listed individuals can petition for removal from the list—does not meet the requirements of the Constitution's Due Process Clause because the process does not "provide meaningful notice of the reasons our clients are blacklisted, the basis for those reasons, and a hearing before a neutral decision-maker."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List

      Persons stopped from flight by the no fly list include.

Senator Edward Kennedy

Civil rights attorney David Cole

Antiwar Activists, such as Jan Adams and  Rebecca Gordon       
http://www.progressive.org/mag_mcnofly
https://www.thenation.com/article/how-two-peace-activists-wound-up-on-the-governments-no-fly-list/

two more peace activists found themselves on the list. Rebecca Gordon and Jan Adams     were detained by San Francisco police at the airport there, reported Alan Gathright of The San Francisco Chronicle

  Now if you want to object that these people were on the no fly list for short times , there is also this guy, who was on it for years.
Nelson Mandela



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2013/12/07/why-nelson-mandela-was-on-a-terrorism-watch-list-in-2008/

[sirs]

Not to mention, people falsely put on a no-fly terrorist list, have no idea they're on any such list, until they either try to fly, or exercise their 2nd amendment rights.  And then the burden falls on THEM to petition the Government to have that right reinstated??

What other Constitutional right should we allow the Government to simply claim they can remove??  How about the 1st amendment....let's say a person can't make up a political internet blog to criticize a politician or party....until they petition the Government to have that right reinstated.  Ooo, how about the 8th amendment, whereby the Government decides to absolve you of that right, until you have petitioned the Government to give it back to you. 

[Xavier_Onassis]

You say that like Nelson Mandela actually wanted to fly to the US for decades.

I do not recall him having any actual difficulty getting to the US when he wanted to come.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOr4F2eNDq8

[sirs]

Not the point now, is it

[Plane]

You say that like Nelson Mandela actually wanted to fly to the US for decades.

I do not recall him having any actual difficulty getting to the US when he wanted to come.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOr4F2eNDq8

  There was reason to put Mr. Mandela on the list.

    Reasons are not hard to come up with.

       Due process would be better.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Not the point now, is it


WRONG! it is precisely the point. Ted Kennedy was not prevented from flying, either.
Ireland has a multitude of men named Edward Kennedy,and in the 1970's, there was certainly at least one of them that belonged to the IRA Provos, who were terrorists.

[sirs]

No, that's you arguing an alternate point, trying to imply being on some terrorist list didn't deprive someone of flying (which it should have) or that someone on the list wasn't likely to visit America anyway (irrelevant)....no, the point is the Government being able to decide (many times in error), to simply place someone on some "terrorist list", with NO due process, and thus robbing someone not of their ability to fly in/out of the U.S., but deprive them of a Constitutional right, without due process.  You don't strip someone of their Constitutional rights because their name might sound like someone known to be a terrorist

[Plane]

Not the point now, is it


WRONG! it is precisely the point. Ted Kennedy was not prevented from flying, either.
Ireland has a multitude of men named Edward Kennedy,and in the 1970's, there was certainly at least one of them that belonged to the IRA Provos, who were terrorists.

   He was, it was a real incident.

    Of course at his level of clout mistakes like this get corrected the same day, several people with less political pull have fought years to get themselves removed.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Then what they need to do is a better job of compiling the no fly list.
I don't think the ACLU would know how to do this. They only know how it should not be done.
I belonged to the ACLU for three years, and at least here in Miami, it is a bunch of lawyers whose meetings are shouting matches and who do nothing but pester the members for money, money, money.

[sirs]

Then what they need to do is a better job of compiling the no fly list.

That's what we've been saying all along.  sheeesh   No one says we shouldn't have a terrorist watch list.  No one is saying a terrorist should be allowed to purchase a firearm.  There MUST be due process however, to place any American on such a list.  This can't simply be left to the whims of a political bureaucracy.....especially one with an agenda

I don't think the ACLU would know how to do this. They only know how it should not be done.

No one is claiming that the ACLU should be some designated agency to do this.  Kimba simply brought them in, as a tangential discussion. 

[Plane]

  A person can already loose the right to buy a firearm, but like the loss of property or other rights it requires a process that allows an accused person the chance of refuting his accusers and puts the burden of proof onto the accusers.

   If anyone sees the Terror watch list as an easy way to strip a person of his rights without due process and without reasonable appeal, shame on them.

    The "no fly" list already needs improvement to do the job it has.

[Xavier_Onassis]

The "no fly"list seems to have done its job. No planes have been used in suicidal terrorist crashes lately.
Having a hearing for each and every person on a no fly list would be extremely complicated and expensive. I do not see this happening.

[sirs]

No, not when you see folks wrongly placed on said list....then it has NOT done its job, when you wrongly wrongly remove someone's constitutional rights.  Freedom trumps "sense of security.  Due Process trumps political agenda

[Plane]

The "no fly"list seems to have done its job. No planes have been used in suicidal terrorist crashes lately.
Having a hearing for each and every person on a no fly list would be extremely complicated and expensive. I do not see this happening.

I think that the no fly list can't prove it has been effective at all.

Certainly not as well as having all passengers ready to leap upon any hijacker has proven effective.

Those Boston Bombers took long flights , to their old home and back. The list may be useful but there is no way to make this list complete and reliable , unless you are willing to include everyone possible, and this would be the end of flight.