Target is transferring cashiers who avoid pork

[Amianthus]

This is why WWJD is completely idiotic. We cannot possibly do what Jesus does (or did).

However, WWTD is completely logical.

 

[Plane]

Is it better to say "What wold Jesus want of me?"

[Universe Prince]

I agree that we cannot take that one instance by itself and use it as a blanket excuse for violence. But I would say clearly Jesus felt violence was an appropriate reaction to the situation.

No, but for some reason a lot of people today seem to think that Jesus is condoning violence here. He quite clearly is not. He is cleansing His house.

Hold on there just minute. Are you saying Jesus did not believe His violent reaction was appropriate to the situation? Anyway as I said, I agree that we cannot take that one instance by itself and use it as a blanket excuse for violence. However, Jesus being the holy and perfect example for us, I think it is not inappropriate for us to take away a lesson that violence as a response can be a correct response in certain situations. As you point out, Jesus was cleansing His house.

No. This is why WWJD is completely idiotic. We cannot possibly do what Jesus does (or did). I don't think any of us are going to turn water into booze at the next wedding we attend. I don't think any of us are going to ascend into heaven under our own power either.

In general I agree. But I did not say we had to imitate Jesus. I said we are told to be like Jesus. Is that not why Jesus spoke, among other things, of taking up one's cross and following Him?

The problem with violence is that you must find a way to have it coexist with Christ's two commandments. Look at Luke 10:25-37 [...] I don't see those two coexisting.

Oh, I dunno, both commandments come from the Old Testament, and God didn't seem to have any trouble having them coexist with violence then. But leaving that aside, I see no reason why they cannot coexist. I could, if I wanted to take the time, and probably so could you if you wanted, argue that Jesus cleansing the temple in that violent manner was was acting out of both devotion to the Father and love for His neighbors. I would say at the very least that they obviously coexisted with Jesus, unless you're going to argue that Jesus violated His own commandments.

[_JS]

However, Jesus being the holy and perfect example for us, I think it is not inappropriate for us to take away a lesson that violence as a response can be a correct response in certain situations. As you point out, Jesus was cleansing His house.

Are you the Son of God fulfilling prophecy from Isaiah? Everything Jesus did was not some archetype for our lives. He had an historical mission to fulfill and it is important to note when this took place in the Gospels. Remember that Jesus is a living God, not some symbolic set of tales for our ethical code. That's one reason I have never understood the use of this incident by many Protestants to justify doing harm to others (or at least using Christ to justify it).

This is the problem with sola scriptura.

Is that not why Jesus spoke, among other things, of taking up one's cross and following Him?

No. You're talking about Mark 8:34-35. This utterance of Jesus challenges all believers to authentic discipleship and total commitment to himself through self-renunciation and acceptance of the cross of suffering, even to the sacrifice of life itself.

Oh, I dunno, both commandments come from the Old Testament, and God didn't seem to have any trouble having them coexist with violence then. But leaving that aside, I see no reason why they cannot coexist. I could, if I wanted to take the time, and probably so could you if you wanted, argue that Jesus cleansing the temple in that violent manner was was acting out of both devotion to the Father and love for His neighbors. I would say at the very least that they obviously coexisted with Jesus, unless you're going to argue that Jesus violated His own commandments.

He was fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah. Not exactly a role for you and I, is it?

[Universe Prince]

Are you the Son of God fulfilling prophecy from Isaiah?

No, but I might be the son of my father defending my house from thieves or worse. Do I need divinity and prophecy for that?

Everything Jesus did was not some archetype for our lives. He had an historical mission to fulfill and it is important to note when this took place in the Gospels. Remember that Jesus is a living God, not some symbolic set of tales for our ethical code. That's one reason I have never understood the use of this incident by many Protestants to justify doing harm to others (or at least using Christ to justify it).

I don't recall saying Christians should all make their own whips and go about thrashing sinners. I said I think it is not inappropriate for us to take away a lesson that violence as a response can be a correct response in certain situations. Jesus was holy, was He not? He was perfect, was He not? We are supposed to strive to be more like Him and less like the world, are we not?

This is the problem with sola scriptura.

Hey, now, don't be hatin'. Let's not get into Protestant vs. Catholic, or I'll have to say something mean.

Is that not why Jesus spoke, among other things, of taking up one's cross and following Him?

No. You're talking about Mark 8:34-35. This utterance of Jesus challenges all believers to authentic discipleship and total commitment to himself through self-renunciation and acceptance of the cross of suffering, even to the sacrifice of life itself.

As I recall, the phrase appears in more than just that one instance. Anyway, what is the point of discipleship to Christ if not to be like Him? Jesus was holy, and if we are to be holy, then He is our example. No, that doesn't mean we ignorantly imitate specific actions, otherwise we would all have to live in Israel, wear sandals, celebrate Passover, and learn carpentry skills. But I'm not suggesting that we have to do that sort of thing. I am not saying that any and all violence is justified. I'm saying that Jesus was holy and He clearly found no conflict between love your neighbor and driving the moneychangers out with a whip. I'm suggesting that means for us that there is an appropriate manner and an appropriate motivation for violence, in certain circumstances, that do not violate the commandments Jesus gave to us.

He was fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah. Not exactly a role for you and I, is it?

I'm not convinced Jesus was fulfilling a prophecy from Isaiah. He quoted a relevant passage certainly, but that doesn't mean it was a Jesus-specific prophecy. And as I look at the verse from Isaiah in context, I don't believe it is a Jesus-specific prophecy or a prophecy that He was fulfilling by driving out the moneychangers, unless I missed the part about Jesus bringing sons of strangers (foreigners) to the temple to make sacrifices.

Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.