Redefining the Problem

[gipper]

The dare-the-devil, long-shot odds the US military is fighting heroically but ineffectively in Iraq have just increased many-fold, as perceptions have it, by the seizure and occupation, now weeks old, of a mosque by students and other radicals in Islamabad, Pakistan's capital, in what is being taken as a direct challenge to Pakistani President Musharaf, our "leading ally in the War on Terror." Not only is this spooky in itself, due to Pakistan's nuclear-power status and perch on the current refuge of al Qaeda brass in the fiercely Islamicist tribal border regions, but beyond that has been taken by some analysts as the first "eruption" of the iceberg of popular dismay with the US role in the Islamic world. The solid mass of anti-US sentiment, long-submerged in most areas but still a factor in tidal reckoning, now MAY be emerging in its full power as a visible force for change in the Islamic world, threatening the ships of state from Pakistan to Lebanon, with the US itself a distant hoped-for casualty.

It would seem that this burgeoning apparent radicalization of the Muslim world, corroborated by stories on the growth of al Qaeda recruits and sentiments among otherwise average folks, is now a problem in its own right, though propelled by Iraq. 

[Michael Tee]

If true, it's long overdue and that fascist collaborator Musharraf may be finally about to receive his due.  For those Americans who consider this to be bad news, PLEEEEEZE don't tell me none of this was predicted before Bush decided to go ahead with his war.

[BT]

Why is it bad news?

The region seems to be imploding on its own.

It is own thing to pay lip service to the US in exchange for dollars.

It is quite another to suppress rebellion to protect your backside.

Let the days of reckoning  begin.

Let the chips fall where they may.

[BT]

Mosque chief  embroiled in nationwide protests over his suspension of the country's top judge, had faced mounting criticism over his failure to crack down on the mosque.

In apparent revenge attacks, a policeman was killed by a rocket and four civilians died in a blast targeting a police chief's car in the northwestern region of Swat, a stronghold of one of the banned groups linked to Aziz.

Meanwhile six Pakistani soldiers and five civilians died in a suicide car bombing Wednesday in a troubled tribal frontier region that officials said was another possible reprisal.

The Red Mosque standoff began in January when female students took over a government-run children's library.

In April the clerics set up an Islamic court that issued a "fatwa'' or religious decree against a paragliding female ministearrested trying to flee in burqa

    *
    * July 05, 2007

THE leader of a radical Pakistani mosque was arrested while trying to flee in a woman's burqa as security forces stepped up pressure on a few hundred hardcore followers still holed up inside.
Firebrand cleric Abdul Aziz's capture sparked an exodus from Islamabad's Lal Masjid, or Red Mosque, with 1,200 male and female students surrendering to the authorities a day after clashes there left 16 people dead.

The government of embattled President Pervez Musharraf hailed the capture of the firebrand preacher as a major success, after months of criticism that it was failing to tackle extremism.

"After all the things he has said and all the oaths he took from his students that they should embrace martyrdom with him, look at this man,'' deputy information minister Tariq Azeem said.

Aziz was caught after a group of 20 burqa-clad women from the mosque started screaming as they were taken to a nearby school for security checks after giving themselves up, saying the procedure was un-Islamic.

"Our men spotted his (Aziz's) unusual demeanour. The rest of the girls looked like girls but he was taller and had a pot belly,'' a security official said on condition of anonymity.

Paramilitary officer Manzoor Ahmad, who saw the incident, said a policeman spotted one member of the crowd staying silent.

"The officer pounced on the lady, and as he grabbed her, the burqa came off and his beard fell out. He asked the man who he was and he said 'I am Maulana (senior cleric) Abdul Aziz,'' the soldier said.

Television footage showed armed intelligence officials dragging the bearded Aziz towards a black Toyota Corolla and driving away at high speed.

Aziz's daughter and two of the children of his brother, deputy mosque leader Abdul Rashid Ghazi, were also arrested, officials said.

Ghazi remained inside the mosque along with as few as 200 students and 60 children, officials said.

Religious leaders were negotiating with him by telephone to give himself up and end the siege.

Troops and police, backed by armoured personnel carriers and helicopter gunships, moved forward to secure the entire area around the mosque, where a shoot-on-sight curfew was imposed in the early hours of Wednesday.

"Ghazi is seeking a graceful exit from this situation. But he has to surrender unconditionally,'' Mr Azeem said.

Students briefly exchanged gunfire with security forces shortly before his detention and again afterwards, officials said.

Police brought the body of a 23-year-old student shot on Wednesday to hospital, doctor Khalid Hussain said.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,22020952-1702,00.html

[_JS]

Why is it bad news?

The region seems to be imploding on its own.

It is own thing to pay lip service to the US in exchange for dollars.

It is quite another to suppress rebellion to protect your backside.

I find that an odd stance. Musharraf is rather well-respected by the moderate Muslims of Pakistan. Pakistan is generally a moderate nation with their rule going back and forth between the military and the very powerful and wealthy families (Bhutto, Nawaz Sharif). Even there the two often mix, Sharif's political mentor was General Zia-ul-Haq.

What exactly do you want Pakistan to do? Fall apart like Iraq?

[Michael Tee]

I think that headline is a little fucked up.  It's the President, Musharraf, who's embroiled in the protest over suspension of the chief justice.

However, I've read a bit more about the Red Mosque, and I think these guys are basically losers.  They went off on the wrong track attacking video stores, for one thing.  Probably piss off a lot of young men who might have been useful supporters.  Islamabad's a pretty modern city.  And small, too, by Pakistani standards.

I think the opposition to Musharraf has to come from the middle classes, the students who are fed up with his subservience to the U.S. and his dictatorial ways and it has to start in the really populated areas where a substantial middle class will be able to back up the students.  Something like the Islamic Revolution in Iran.  The Red Mosque rebels are just punks.

[BT]

What exactly do you want Pakistan to do? Fall apart like Iraq?

Don't know where you get that idea. My take is simply passive. My wishes have no bearing on the reality of the situation.

But i am surprised that you thought i wished for Pakistan to fall apart. Perhaps you have me confused with Mikey.

Though i did get a chuckle out of the leader of the mosque rebellion trying to escape dressed as a woman.

At least he was properly attired with his burqa.

[sirs]

i am surprised that you thought i wished for Pakistan to fall apart. Perhaps you have me confused with Mikey.  Though i did get a chuckle out of the leader of the mosque rebellion trying to escape dressed as a woman.  At least he was properly attired with his burqa.

I wouldn't be surprised if that prompted cries of indirect torture at the hands of that imperailist dictator, Bush & his low hanging fruit of a military

[_JS]

What exactly do you want Pakistan to do? Fall apart like Iraq?

Don't know where you get that idea. My take is simply passive. My wishes have no bearing on the reality of the situation.

But i am surprised that you thought i wished for Pakistan to fall apart. Perhaps you have me confused with Mikey.

Though i did get a chuckle out of the leader of the mosque rebellion trying to escape dressed as a woman.

At least he was properly attired with his burqa.

Then what did you mean by your initial post above? I would think that we should support Musharraf. That doesn't seem to be what your post indicates.

[BT]

I would think that we should support Musharraf. That doesn't seem to be what your post indicates.

Isn't this an internal matter? And isn't meddling in other countries affairs one of the main criticisms of the Bush Administration and the US in general?

[gipper]

BT, you have a very good point, but it would seem to me and obviously to vast majorities in the Muslim world that our "meddling in Iraq is a far greater irritant.

[BT]

I don't think the Pakistan situation is related to Iraq. probably has more to do with the Afghan Campaign.

[gipper]

In typical, sophistic, bait-and-switch tactics, you move from the seeming truism of US "meddling" in Muslim affairs -- the "reason" you gave for lefties to be reluctant to support efforts to prop Musharraf up -- to the seeming limitation of the example I used, Iraq, which promotes general disquiet in the Muslim world, to the proposition that the Afghan War has more direct impact on Pakistani politics. No shit. But I matched your (typically) cutesy jibe at the Dems with my own jibe at you, which remains unquestionably true despite your best efforts to bob and weave.

[BT]

Damn

Now i will have to change tactics.

or not.

[Plane]

If the mosque were under seige who would be the offended and who the offenders?

Are these guys in there with intentions of prayer?