The bible as a book - Your thoughts?

[Michael Tee]

<<Sometimes, it is amazing to me that people can accept so many things that exist without seeing them like breathable air . . . >>

I don't get it, Professor.  What's so hard to accept about breathable air when you can feel it being drawn in and out of your lungs when you breathe?  I thought you'd pick an example like unseen and unfelt subatomic particles.  And those we accept because of experiments that produce marks on paper or move needles on dials - - something we can see, and combine with logic to figure out, "Well we can't see it but it must be there."

<< . . . and yet believing in inspirational issues is so difficult. >>

Well, sure it is.  Truth isn't necessarily inspirational.  If your best friend steals your life savings and disappears with your wife, it might be more inspirational to believe he didn't do it, but if the cops find him with the loot, and wifey says she's leaving you for him even if he's gonna be locked up for thirty years, you gotta believe what you gotta believe.  The more inspirational belief might  be that the cops framed him and that your wife is just playing a joke on you but how the hell can you believe it when all the evidence goes the other way?  Truth hurts, sometimes and life can get ugly.  You believe what fact and logic dictate, not what is "inspirational."

<<It is probably because we resort to reason over Faith. Certainly understandable, by the way. Man wants ot beleive he is top of the hill, the Big Kahuna.>>

That's not true at all.  I WANT there to be a Big Kahuna so I could be sure that Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld would fry in hell for what they've done to hundreds of thousands of innocent human beings here on earth.  Why would I want to believe I was the Big Kahuna?  I can't do a God-damn thing about those guys and neither can all the rest of the people on this planet.  They'll go to their graves laughing and with the blood of millions on their hands, and believe me, if I or any other decent human being or beings were the Big Kahuna, there would be hell to pay for those bastards. 

I think the power of atheism is kind of the reverse of what you said - - Man doesn't want to believe that a Supreme Being could possibly LET all this shit go down.  Could CREATE people like Bush or Hitler in the first place.

The only answer I heard to that kind of reasoning was an old buddy of mine from high school who just dropped off the face of the earth - - one of the smartest guys I ever knew.  One time he got stoned and found this insight:  "There's no Christ without Hitler and no Hitler without Christ."  Meaning I guess that good couldn't be good unless there was evil and evil couldn't be evil unless there was good.  If the only victims that Hitler could find were Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, who the hell would give a shit?  What possible difference could it make?  They could all torture each other in hell for a million years and it would be fine.  Hitler needed innocent victims to be his evil self and Christ wouldn't mean a damn if everyone else was Christ.

[Xavier_Onassis]

For me, a faith issue is one thing, and a faith despite reason issue if something else.

I believe in air, because I see that my breath can fill a balloon, I believe that air contains oxygen, since things rust when left in air. Because what I can see and feel makes sense, then having faith in the scientific description of air, that it is composed of nitrogen, oxygen, Co2 and various traces gases is pretty easy. The same is true of gravity.

On the other hand, believing in angels, believing that for several thousand years there was a God, and at some inexplicable date in history, God decided to send a previously unmentioned son to walk about for 32 years in an unremarkable way and then to spend a year of so gathering followers and getting himself crucified so that I and everyone after that date would be saved from their sins so that we all could sing in the Choir Celestial instead of frying in Hell where we actually belonged...

Well, there is no reason that can make sense of that for me.

There are many, many, many things in the Bible that lead me to conclude that this was not written by anyone guided by any logical force. It appears to me to have been written entirely by men who had a very limited knowledge of the world, who incorporated a bunch of typical folk myths into a rather random set of documents, some of which are words of wisdom, others are wacko rantings and others are folktales.

It seems highly unlikely to me that any sane omnipotent, omniscient being could have presided over all this, and if he had, then why do further "improved' religions keep popping up, like Islam, Mormonism, and such?

It might seem somewhat sane to assume that it all was created by some force, but it seems far less logical that it was created by the God mentioned in the Bible.

[The_Professor]

So, we come full circle back to the god of Reason, namely that we must prove it exists before we Believe. And this is where Faith enters, a new paradigm that is accepted or not.

As to all the various religions/faiths/sects, etc -- no one will really know until you physically die and then "see" what happens. Until then, Faith in Omnipotence or Reason prevails, does it not?

[Seamus]

Speaking for myself, I think both the Professor and XO have it right.

Faith and religion and the belief in any specific God is going to HAVE to, by it's nature, be based on FAITH and not...  hmmm..  reason is the wrong word, because you both are very reasonable.  Science?  Or Proof?  Anyway.

I tend to lean towards XO's line of thought.  I find the Bible difficult to swallow when it's supposed to be some kind of divine truth. And because of my doubt about the bible, I feel required to doubt the existance of the God it teaches about. 

But I respect, and even admire a person who can believe in something that, as far as I can tell, can't be proven.  It's like scientists trying to work out dark matter.  So far no one can explain it or deal with it (last I heard) but there IS a general consensus that it exists.  I used to have religious faith.  I used to be a strong Christian.  But these days, it just doesn't make sense to me right now.  Maybe the Professor is right...   I need some miracles in my life.  Anyone have some water? I could get drunk right about now...  (That was uncalled for, but kind of funny... )

[Xavier_Onassis]

I am not sure how miracles prove the existence of anything if they just happen.

Now, if a booming voice is heard to say, "I am the LORD thy GOD, and verily, I well change this pile of stone into cheesecake to feed my Believer,", and it happens, and thr cheesecake is delicious and nonfattening and cholesterol-free, then one might be inclined to believe that God has at least the power to turn stone into cheesecake at least once.
Again, one thing is to have faith to believe what already makes sense. It is something else to believe a vast number of items that make no sense at all, and the Bible seems to demand the latter.

   
But I respect, and even admire a person who can believe in something that, as far as I can tell, can't be proven.

Hunh? Suppose I believe that all Jews are responsible for killing Jesus and have joined the Communists and the Masons to plunder everyone else. I am betting you would not find this admirable.

[Seamus]

I am not sure how miracles prove the existence of anything if they just happen.

Now, if a booming voice is heard to say, "I am the LORD thy GOD, and verily, I well change this pile of stone into cheesecake to feed my Believer,", and it happens, and thr cheesecake is delicious and nonfattening and cholesterol-free, then one might be inclined to believe that God has at least the power to turn stone into cheesecake at least once.
Again, one thing is to have faith to believe what already makes sense. It is something else to believe a vast number of items that make no sense at all, and the Bible seems to demand the latter.

I agree...  The bible wants us to believe a lot of odd things.  And further, the people who are self proclaimed followers of the bible apparenly have rules about what parts ARE to be followed and what parts aren't.  All very confusing.

But if a mighty voice changed a rock into cheesecake... well..   I'd be a convert.

   
But I respect, and even admire a person who can believe in something that, as far as I can tell, can't be proven.

Hunh? Suppose I believe that all Jews are responsible for killing Jesus and have joined the Communists and the Masons to plunder everyone else. I am betting you would not find this admirable.

True..  Admirable is wrong.  Respect is right for most cases, and admirable might be what I would feel in some cases.  I do miss my faith, and I admire people who can maintain it in the face of so much...  opposition.  But as far as respect, I could respect your beliefs if they were based in what you saw was true, and you were willing to stand by them.  I may not agree and may even oppose them, but I would respect, and possibly admire, your conviction.  (But true, I would not admire the object of your beliefs.)