I got my butt kicked

[Plane]

You seem to be comparing Hitler with OBL and claiming that "Blaming the Jews" and "quoting the Protocols of the Elders" is the same as calling for the total extermination of the whole race, which OBL has NEVER done.

Never?

[Michael Tee]

OBL has never called for the extermination of any race or nation, Jews included.

[Plane]

OBL has never called for the extermination of any race or nation, Jews included.

How in the world can you know that?

[Michael Tee]

Because it's agaisnt the Muslim religion and because nobody has ever produced any writing or broadcast tape from him urging total extermination of any race or religion or nationality.

[Plane]

OBL has never called for the extermination of any race or nation, Jews included.

"Every American man is an enemy to us." -- Independent.

" . . . It is far better for anyone to kill a single American soldier than to squander his efforts on other activities." -- May 1998

"We--with God's help--call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson." Feb. 1998 - Bin Laden edict

http://www.usvetdsp.com/osam_qts.htm

To kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque [Jerusalem] and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim.
Osama bin Laden
In Fatwa entitled Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders World Islamic Front Statement, February 28, 1998

http://www.allgreatquotes.com/osama_binladen_quotes.shtml

We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.?
 nathanbanks Osama bin Laden quote
 
    
  
 
      ?worse than the Jews.?
http://thinkexist.com/quotes/osama_bin_laden/


?I heard about the bombings the same way everyone else heard about them, from the television or radio. I did not order them but was very glad for what happened to the Americans there.?
 Osama bin Laden quote
 
?Three months after our blessed attack against the main infidel West, especially America, and two months after the infidel's attacks on Islam, we would like to talk about some of the implications of those incidents,?
 Osama bin Laden quote
 


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Finding quotes of Osama saying that Americans are bad and ought to die is easy.

Did Hitler really do more?

[Plane]

Because it's agaisnt the Muslim religion and because nobody has ever produced any writing or broadcast tape from him urging total extermination of any race or religion or nationality.

Seems like it was you that told me that Hitler didn't leave a paper trail amounting to proof that he ordered the actions of the Holocaust or "final solution" himself.

I am sure that finding Hitler's statements of Jewish guilt are pretty easy , but is it easy to find a writing or broadcast tape from him urging total extermination of any race or religion or nationality?

[Michael Tee]

None of the OBL quotes you posted advocates the extermination of an entire race.

Hitler did not leave a paper trail - - never signed an order for the extermination of all Jews .  But that in fact was the polciy followed everywhere the Germans went.  There were no exceptions.  They did not pretend to house the women and children incapable of work.  Off the trains and straight to the gas chambers.  Into the trucks and into the lime pits.  The policy was unmistakeable.  There is a radio broadcast where Hitler does say that if the Jews succeed in provoking another world war. "That is the end of the Jewish race in Europe."  Admittedly, it could mean they'd all be shipped to Madagascar.

I guess the difference is that while Hitler vilified the Jews AND his armies pursued a policy of total extermination, OBL vilifies Jews and Americans but does not pursue a policy of total extermination.  All we have is your assurance, as if you could read the guy's mind, that if he COULD exterminate, he WOULD exterminate.  Since, unlike Hitler, he never made threats to exterminate, you can't really say that he would do it.  furthermore, his religion forbids it and he claims to be a strict believer in his religion.

[_JS]

The Nazis believed in the genocide of the Jewish people because they considered Jews to be a "cancer upon the human race."

It is interesting to note that many Nazis (and Fascists in general) very often used this terminology. They considered themselves to be something akin to surgeons who were not destroying anything, but instead saving a life through genocide. And Jews weren't the only source of infection - there were Roma, Communists, and Slavs as well. (As an aside, the UN originally wanted to include race, ethnicity, religion, and politics in the official definition of genocide in 1946 but the final term was prevented by none other than Josef Stalin. It ended up being a great thing for the United States as many of the Cold War regimes we aided participated in political genocides.)

Nazi medical doctors discussed Jewish and Bolshevik "cancer cells."

The dictators, which I alluded to above, used the same language. Pinochet famously quipped when challenged about his human rights record that, "if you have gangrene in one arm, you remove it so that the entire body remains healthy." His "cancer" were the union leaders and socialists of Chile. Many of whom were tortured and imprisoned in death camps.

And today we hear the same responses in this country. In fact, I've heard them in this forum. People become tumors. Once they make that voyage, then they can be discarded much more easily with little impact on the conscience.

[Plane]

None of the OBL quotes you posted advocates the extermination of an entire race.

Hitler did not leave a paper trail - - never signed an order for the extermination of all Jews .  But that in fact was the polciy followed everywhere the Germans went.  There were no exceptions.  They did not pretend to house the women and children incapable of work.  Off the trains and straight to the gas chambers.  Into the trucks and into the lime pits.  The policy was unmistakeable.  There is a radio broadcast where Hitler does say that if the Jews succeed in provoking another world war. "That is the end of the Jewish race in Europe."  Admittedly, it could mean they'd all be shipped to Madagascar.

I guess the difference is that while Hitler vilified the Jews AND his armies pursued a policy of total extermination, OBL vilifies Jews and Americans but does not pursue a policy of total extermination.  All we have is your assurance, as if you could read the guy's mind, that if he COULD exterminate, he WOULD exterminate.  Since, unlike Hitler, he never made threats to exterminate, you can't really say that he would do it.  furthermore, his religion forbids it and he claims to be a strict believer in his religion.

I don't detect any mention of leaveing any American or Jew uninjured . When he says it is good to kill Americans and Jews where does he say "except"? His movement is smller and weaker than the Natzis , especially in relation to his chosen opponent, the other diffrences are detail.

[Michael Tee]

<<don't detect any mention of leaveing any American or Jew uninjured . When he says it is good to kill Americans and Jews where does he say "except"? His movement is smller and weaker than the Natzis , especially in relation to his chosen opponent, the other diffrences are detail.>>

Really grasping at straws aren't we?  I could go back over some of your own posts where you propose using nuclear weapons or other forms of massive violence and I don't recall you making any references to leaving some of them uninjured.  When people are making threats, there's a certain format of rhetoric involved.  Curtis LeMay didn't say of the Russians, "We'll bomb them back into the Stone Age but of course we won't kill all of them we want to leave some alive as seedbed for the next generation."  It's just "We'll bomb them back into the Stone Age."  Period.  Churchill made a speech once about removing all trace of Hitler by bombing and burning and blasting (I mean blawsting) but I don't recall him finishing off with some kind of disclaimer, "of course I certainly don't mean to imply that we are going to kill all the Germans."

I mean, come on, you've got to distinguish between rhetoric in a beating-the-drum war speech and a lifetime campaign of vilification without any distinction at all between good and bad individuals, just a condemnation of an entire race of people as naturally inferior, toxic and pestilent. 

I also think you have to allow for the tone of bitterness that necessarily and naturally creeps into a speaker's voice and words when he is denouncing an enemy which has violated, humiliated, exploited and robbed his people and a person filled with the same kind of hatred but towards people who have never done him any harm.  I can understand why Osama would be bitter towards the Jews and I can expect that his rhetoric fuelled by that bitterness would go over the top;  since Hitler had absolutely no reason for such hatred, I feel there was no retaliatory or pay-back element in his threats, it was all pure malice.

[Plane]

<<don't detect any mention of leaveing any American or Jew uninjured . When he says it is good to kill Americans and Jews where does he say "except"? His movement is smller and weaker than the Natzis , especially in relation to his chosen opponent, the other diffrences are detail.>>

Really grasping at straws aren't we?  I could go back over some of your own posts where you propose using nuclear weapons or other forms of massive violence and I don't recall you making any references to leaving some of them uninjured.  When people are making threats, there's a certain format of rhetoric involved.  Curtis LeMay didn't say of the Russians, "We'll bomb them back into the Stone Age but of course we won't kill all of them we want to leave some alive as seedbed for the next generation."  It's just "We'll bomb them back into the Stone Age."  Period.  Churchill made a speech once about removing all trace of Hitler by bombing and burning and blasting (I mean blawsting) but I don't recall him finishing off with some kind of disclaimer, "of course I certainly don't mean to imply that we are going to kill all the Germans."

I mean, come on, you've got to distinguish between rhetoric in a beating-the-drum war speech and a lifetime campaign of vilification without any distinction at all between good and bad individuals, just a condemnation of an entire race of people as naturally inferior, toxic and pestilent. 

I also think you have to allow for the tone of bitterness that necessarily and naturally creeps into a speaker's voice and words when he is denouncing an enemy which has violated, humiliated, exploited and robbed his people and a person filled with the same kind of hatred but towards people who have never done him any harm.  I can understand why Osama would be bitter towards the Jews and I can expect that his rhetoric fuelled by that bitterness would go over the top;  since Hitler had absolutely no reason for such hatred, I feel there was no retaliatory or pay-back element in his threats, it was all pure malice.

It was you that pointed out that the diffrence between Hitler and Osama Bin Laden was that Osama did not in public speech propose that Geonocide was a good idea.

But of course neither did Hitler ,this is not a diffrence.

Were you grasping at straws?

[Plane]

I also think you have to allow for the tone of bitterness that necessarily and naturally creeps into a speaker's voice and words when he is denouncing an enemy which has violated, humiliated, exploited and robbed his people and a person filled with the same kind of hatred but towards people who have never done him any harm.  I can understand why Osama would be bitter towards the Jews and I can expect that his rhetoric fuelled by that bitterness would go over the top;  since Hitler had absolutely no reason for such hatred, I feel there was no retaliatory or pay-back element in his threats, it was all pure malice.

No I don't , Hitler was an actual member of the nation that was repressed by the Versailles treaty, which he blamed on Jews unjustly .

Osama Bin Laden is an Arabian  , What harm has been done to the Saudi Arabians by Americans or Jews?

This guy has gone out of his way to be offended he and his family grew wealthy from American exploitation, his whole nation grew wealth and doubled in population while being mistreated by Americans buying their oil.

If there is any legitimate complaint it is that we enriched the government that they already had , which has some bad features , but the government Osama wants would not really be any better would it.

Did all theWhite people of the world feel aggrieved at the dispossession of the white people of Rhodesia? White Christian men and women forced to leave the homes they were born in ! Pan-caucausionism should have led us to spring to their defense , but why didn't this happen?

Is an injury to any Caucasion an insult to me? What is Osama's excuse to be offended?

[Michael Tee]

<<Osama Bin Laden is an Arabian  , What harm has been done to the Saudi Arabians by Americans or Jews?>>

What the hell is an Arabian?  An ARAB who happens to have been born between lines drawn on a map by foreign infidels in the 1920s.  Why should he feel allegiance only to other people who live between the same lines drawn by foreign infidels?   His Arab heart and his religion tell him that he is the brother of every oppressed Palestinian Arab Muslim.  But he should ignore that and instead place his allegiance where foreigners tell him to place it, to foreign-supported puppets?

Sorry, plane.  Next sophistry, please.

[Amianthus]

What the hell is an Arabian?

Didn't take long to look up, I put the appropriate definition (based on context) in bold:

Arabian
adj.

Of or concerning Arabia or the Arabs; Arab.

n.

   1. A native or inhabitant of Arabia.
   2. An Arabian horse.

[Michael Tee]

Thanks.  I think if I got the intent of plane's message, it was something like this:  Osama bin Laden is a citizen (or at the time was a citizen) of Saudi Arabia.  Therefore his people are his fellow citizens of Saudi Arabia.  Therefore he has no legitimate cause for concern over the fate of the Palestinians.

If I got plane correctly, he was using the word "Arabian" to indicate the citizenship of OBL (Saudi Arabian) and in a broader sense to define where his (OBL's) loyalties lay, or should have lain.  By "Arabian" he meant "Saudi Arabian" and his reference was to the nation of Saudi Arabia.