Author Topic: Just asking  (Read 1472 times)

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BT

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Just asking
« on: April 11, 2008, 10:51:13 PM »
"I am not asking anybody to take a chance on me. I am asking you to take a chance on your own aspirations."

Barack Obama via Deval Patrick


Is this any different than the GOP mantra of self empowerment ?


Religious Dick

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Re: Just asking
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2008, 11:17:15 PM »
"I am not asking anybody to take a chance on me. I am asking you to take a chance on your own aspirations."

Barack Obama via Deval Patrick


Is this any different than the GOP mantra of self empowerment ?



Depends on your aspirations. I suspect Democratic voters have a very different set of them than Republican voters.
I speak of civil, social man under law, and no other.
-Sir Edmund Burke

BT

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Re: Just asking
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2008, 11:36:50 PM »
Quote
I suspect Democratic voters have a very different set of them than Republican voters.

Being free to make you own mistakes is also a GOP mantra, ie the opposite of the nanny state.


Universe Prince

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Re: Just asking
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2008, 12:20:16 AM »

Depends on your aspirations.


I agree. Some people aspire to overcome obstacles and achieve success. Some people aspire to have the government step in to flatten the obstacles, pave the way and provide the success. Obama, given his rhetoric about what he wants to accomplish as President and his comments about the recent mortgage/foreclosure issue, seems to be expecting people to aspire to the latter rather than the former.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: Just asking
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2008, 02:01:36 AM »
So this idea of ownership of aspirations and therefore responsibility for same is something that republicans and libertarians would be against?

or are you saying Obama is not the right messenger for this idea.

Is the messenger as important as the message?

Plane

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Re: Just asking
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2008, 02:04:02 AM »


Is the messenger as important as the message?


Would you like your roast beef and potatoes on a plate or a trashcan lid?

BT

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Re: Just asking
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2008, 02:40:30 AM »
Quote
Would you like your roast beef and potatoes on a plate or a trashcan lid?

If the lid were sanitary i suppose it would be ok. And it would hold more.

But the discussion digresses.

Dreams, aspirations, ownership and responsibility for same.

Is that even a campaign issue?



Universe Prince

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Re: Just asking
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2008, 04:05:02 AM »

So this idea of ownership of aspirations and therefore responsibility for same is something that republicans and libertarians would be against?


No, I wouldn't say that.


or are you saying Obama is not the right messenger for this idea.


No. I'm saying different people have different aspirations. You asked if your Obama quote was any different than the GOP mantra of self-empowerment. Some people aspire to self-empowerment while some people aspire to government "assistance". Obama might be a proper messenger for the idea, but I doubt the idea he is selling is self-empowerment. Least ways, he doesn't seem to me to be selling that idea.


Is the messenger as important as the message?


First we need to be clear on what the message is. Obama might be saying "I am not asking anybody to take a chance on me. I am asking you to take a chance on your own aspirations." But what that means in the final analysis is still, "vote for me, Barack Obama." He's looking for support. He's trying to place himself as the embodiment of your aspirations. As was the guy who said it before Obama. So in this case, and with this message, I'd say the messenger is at least as important as the message.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: Just asking
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2008, 04:23:52 AM »

Dreams, aspirations, ownership and responsibility for same.

Is that even a campaign issue?


Isn't it always? This candidate offers to bring the achievement of the American dream into reach for all Americans. That candidate offers to make the American dream possible to achieve for all Americans. And another candidate offers to help all Americans achieve the American dream. Is this not what happens every election cycle?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Just asking
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2008, 07:44:29 AM »
For most people, the American Dream is and ever will be unattainable.
When you lack something, it can become an obsession, but once you obtain it-the house, the car, whatever- then it is swiftly taken for granted, and something else replaces it as a new obsession.

From any logical or practical standpoint, there is no reason why Bill Gates or Donald Trump need any more than they already have. Perhaps at this stage Gates is dedicating himself to ending malaria and other endemic diseases with the money he receives from the totally outrageous prices he charges for Vista and Office. Trump, eternal lout that he is, seems obsessed with simply being respoected as a guy who is recognized by everyone as a King-Hell Kickass Boss.

I doubt that either Trump nor Gates thinks they have attained the "American Dream".

Being content with what one has has never been an American trait.

The SUV madness is to blame for the desperation for more oil. Had the government made a ruling on light truck fuel economy as well as car cafe standards, Had Detroit not advertised giant behemoths as family vehicles, had the public not been utter nitwits then, we could have avoided much of the madness that followed.

The imbecile Juniorbush still will not appear on TV and suggest that people drive a bit slower, that they think about conservation, that thet just check the air in their friggin' tires once a week. Just one speech could save millions of gallons of gas.
 

« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 09:00:36 AM by Xavier_Onassis »
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Just asking
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2008, 01:25:54 PM »
The SUV madness is to blame for the desperation for more oil.

OH GOOD GRAVY.  The wish for greater room for the family and greater protection for all, is "madness" now??  Returning back to current reality, one can easily deduce that said "desperation" is that there has been negligible, IF THAT, buidling of any new refineries and a complete stifling of any attempt to aquire our OWN new sources for oil.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 09:05:42 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Just asking
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2008, 08:42:33 PM »
For most people, the American Dream is and ever will be unattainable.



This is hard to understand. What could you mean?

If the American Dream is to have a place of your own then more of us now than ever before have acheved this.

If the American Dreem is freedom we still have a generous measure of it.

If the American dream is to avoid starvation we have mostly got it .

I don't know if the American Dream is to become content or not , but if it is , here is little that government or political action can do about it , since contentment is acheved individually and independant of circumstance.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Just asking
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2008, 02:09:58 PM »
So exactly what is the "American Dream: for you?

Have you attained it?

If so, why?

If not, what remains to happen before you say you have attained it?
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: Just asking
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2008, 02:59:56 PM »
The American Dream is the hope that it is possible that dreams will come true.

It's still alive for me. The goalpost shifts but the dream lives on.






Amianthus

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Re: Just asking
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2008, 03:07:30 PM »
So exactly what is the "American Dream: for you?

Have you attained it?

If so, why?

If not, what remains to happen before you say you have attained it?

I have heard two different (quantifiable) definitions of the "American Dream."

a) Owning your own property (particularly a house with some land).

b) Living a better life than your parents.

I have achieved both goals.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)