Author Topic: Fire in the Night  (Read 1989 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: Fire in the Night
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2008, 08:33:41 AM »
<<Did Georgia invade Russian Territory?>>

NO, they invaded an ethnically Russian enclave which they had previously agreed would remain autonomous, protected by Russian peace-keepers.  They violated their bond, apparently with serious consequences.  the Russian army did what it had to do in response - - protect its peace-keeping force, the people of South Ossetia and the autonomy of South Ossetia.  And at the same time frustrating U.S. plans to ring Russia with U.S. military bases and allies.  As I had predicted earlier, U.S. aggression in the Middle East is a stimulus for other states to take defensive measures early, and also - - as in the case of the Shanghai Cooperative Organization - - to form and to strengthen defensive alliances.  I would love to be around long enough to witness the result of these trends.

hnumpah

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Re: Fire in the Night
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2008, 10:28:05 AM »
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Well, yeah - - the motive for the purges was to safeguard the Revolution against internal enemies and foreign saboteurs.  And the motive for the invasion of Viet Nam was the pure urge to dominate.

...the motive for the purges was to safeguard the Revolution...

What part of that was not a pure urge to dominate, or remain the dominant power?
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Michael Tee

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Re: Fire in the Night
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2008, 10:54:42 AM »
<<What part of that was not a pure urge to dominate, or remain the dominant power?>>

Dominate, sure.  But in the name of the working class.  The alternative is always the same, domination by the  plutocracy.  You gotta pick your side.  Either the plutocracy dominates (U.S.A.) or the working class dominates (U.S.S.R.)  In an ideal world, nobody would dominate and everyone would have his say and there would be rule by consensus.  But in the real world, it's unfortunately either-or:  the Big Money or the people.

BT

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Re: Fire in the Night
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2008, 11:11:30 AM »
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NO, they invaded an ethnically Russian enclave which they had previously agreed would remain autonomous, protected by Russian peace-keepers.

Who agreed the enclave would be protected by Russian peace keeping forces? Who negotiated this, what sanctioning body approved it?



hnumpah

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Re: Fire in the Night
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2008, 11:37:40 AM »
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Dominate, sure.  But in the name of the working class.

Seemed to me the working class were the ones who got the shaft. I visited both Moscow and East Berlin in the late 70's - neither was anywhere near what one might consider a workers paradise.

It occurs to me that every time some one or some group makes a grab for power, it's 'in the name of' something, whether it's freedom, or the working class, or whatever. What makes the Communist group of thugs any different from the current crop of, say, American thugs? Aren't (weren't) both of them trying to impose their will on someone else?
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

Michael Tee

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Re: Fire in the Night
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2008, 11:43:40 AM »
<<Who agreed the enclave would be protected by Russian peace keeping forces? Who negotiated this, what sanctioning body approved it?>>

I dunno, I just assumed the Russians and Georgians worked it out themselves.

Michael Tee

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Re: Fire in the Night
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2008, 11:57:40 AM »
<<Seemed to me the working class were the ones who got the shaft. I visited both Moscow and East Berlin in the late 70's - neither was anywhere near what one might consider a workers paradise.>>

I visited East Berlin in the late 80s and it seemed OK to me.  Very quiet compared to West Berlin, but excellent libraries, theatres and opera house.  We saw Fledermaus in West Berlin and Cosi Fan Tutte in East Berlin, the quality of the operas was roughly equal, the opera houses were each charming in their own way.  There were a lot more people in fancy dress attending in West Berlin and a lot of worker and academic types attending in East Berlin.  The ticket prices in the East were a tiny fraction of the ticket prices in the West.  It was instantly apparent that the working class had much more access to opera in East Berlin than they did in West Berlin.

We took a river cruise in East Berlin and met a vacationing German woman from Dresden.  She was talking about her sailing club.  Turned out it was a workers' sailing club from her workplace. 

I think you have to consider that Russia, for instance, was utterly devastated in WWII, a war which immensely enriched the U.S.A., caused no damage to its infrastructure, and left it without major commercial rivals for decades.  It was a bonanza.  While the U.S. encircled Russia with hostile bases and threatened it with missiles built by their Nazi scientists and their (fortunately temporary) atomic monopoly, the U.S.S.R. was forced to divert huge amounts of capital into defence rather than building the "workers' paradise" that you so evidently missed.  They did what they could for the working class, but the overarching primary need of the working class was not "paradise" but self-defence against U.S. aggression and imperialism.

BT

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Re: Fire in the Night
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2008, 01:01:31 PM »
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I dunno, I just assumed the Russians and Georgians worked it out themselves.

Accuracy is not a big thing to you , is it?


Michael Tee

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Re: Fire in the Night
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2008, 01:11:51 PM »
<<Accuracy is not a big thing to you , is it?>>

It is or it isn't, depending on context.  I am certainly not a nit-picker like some in this group.  Over-obsessing on "accuracy" in trivial matters obscures the real issue and wastes a lot of time and energy.  You have to wonder where it is that "accuracy" shades into triviality and distraction.  You need a sense of proportion, as I've mentioned on several previous occasions.

hnumpah

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Re: Fire in the Night
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2008, 02:26:28 PM »
The East Berlin and Moscow that I saw were pretty drab and cheerless places. We saw long lines waiting to buy necessities in storefront shops, while the party elite were able to get just about anything without waiting in line. Regular folks in East Berlin, if they had cars, generally had Trabants - think Yugo, only more shoddy - held together with spit and bailing wire, while the party bigwigs had nicer cars. The same was generally true in Moscow, except there the bigwigs had their own lanes on the highways, enforced by the police. And Moscow was not devastated in WWII.

East Germany is still the only place I've ever been that had to put up a fence to keep it's people in.

It must have really been a workers paradise.
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_JS

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Re: Fire in the Night
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2008, 02:56:54 PM »
Everyone knows that invading other countries is wrong. What kind of sorry ass nation would do that?


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BT

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Re: Fire in the Night
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2008, 04:40:19 PM »
Mikey your whole justification for the russia invasion was to protect their peace keeping forces.

Did they have peace keeping stations in S. Osetia?

I don't think that a trivial bone to pick.