Author Topic: Why I haven't been a Republican for many years now  (Read 4890 times)

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Universe Prince

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Re: Why I haven't been a Republican for many years now
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2010, 04:03:03 AM »

Quote
That the Democratic Party is not the party of fiscal conservatism and smaller government does not mean the Republican Party ipso facto then is such a party.

Sure it does. They, on average, are more fiscally conservative than their Democrat counterparts.

So? Are they significantly more fiscally conservative than their Democratic counterparts? Not that I can tell. They may oppose the government health care plan now, but they do so, as best I can tell, less from a desire to adhere to fiscal conservatism than from political expediency. Why? Because when the Republicans had the Presidency and a majority in Congress, they chose to follow the politically expedient path of significantly expanding Medicare. And even now, one of the frequent Republican objections to the bill is that it infringes on Medicare. The party talks about fiscal conservatism but its actions reveal a different value.

Plenty of Democrats claim they support the Second Amendment because they support hunters having guns for hunting, and meanwhile they want bans on handguns and "assault" rifles. That isn't really support of the Second Amendment. That is trying to throw voters a bone for the sake of political expediency.The Republican Party is fiscally conservative in much the same way. Just because they say they are doesn't mean their actions are.

And no, being less fiscally liberal than the Democrats does not mean the Republican Party is actually fiscally conservative. One can say a penny coin is larger than a dime, but that doesn't make the penny a large object.



That they should be even more fiscally conservative in the minds of some is fine, they are entitled to that opinion. But, to mix metaphors, to be called hypocritical for claiming to be for immigration reform, when you don't call for rounding up all the aliens and shooting them, does not mean you are not for immigration reform.

Nice bait.


But be careful what you wish for. A true fiscal conservative would double your taxes in a heartbeat.

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American businessman, politician, and current Mayor of New York City, Michael Bloomberg, considers himself a fiscal conservative and expressed his definition of the term at the 2007 United Kingdom Conservative Party Conference.
?    

To me, fiscal conservatism means balancing budgets - not running deficits that the next generation can't afford. It means improving the efficiency of delivering services by finding innovative ways to do more with less. It means cutting taxes when possible and prudent to do so, raising them overall only when necessary to balance the budget, and only in combination with spending cuts. It means when you run a surplus, you save it; you don't squander it. And most importantly, being a fiscal conservative means preparing for the inevitable economic downturns - and by all indications, we've got one coming.
   ?

--Michael Bloomberg[17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscal_conservatism

So let me see if I got this right. Bloomberg claims to be fiscally conservative, espouses this idea, and so therefore this idea must be fiscal conservatism?

If I boil your whole argument down, it seems to be that Republicans are fiscally conservative because they say they are. If that is your argument, I have to say your argument is seriously flawed for very obvious reasons. If that is not your argument, tell me why I'm wrong.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: Why I haven't been a Republican for many years now
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2010, 12:25:01 PM »
Quote
So? Are they significantly more fiscally conservative than their Democratic counterparts? Not that I can tell.
Then you haven't been paying attention.

Which party cut school lunch programs by calling ketchup a vegetable? And which party protested and ridiculed that attempt at cost savings?


Universe Prince

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Re: Why I haven't been a Republican for many years now
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2010, 12:22:58 AM »

Quote
So? Are they significantly more fiscally conservative than their Democratic counterparts? Not that I can tell.
Then you haven't been paying attention.

Which party cut school lunch programs by calling ketchup a vegetable? And which party protested and ridiculed that attempt at cost savings?


That is your argument that the Republican Party is significantly more fiscally conservative than the Democratic Party? Really? You're joking now, right? Is that the best you can do? The proposed ketchup-as-vegetable policy was not even implemented as best I can tell. So no, that does nothing to prove the Republican Party is significantly more fiscally conservative than the Democratic Party.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: Why I haven't been a Republican for many years now
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2010, 12:31:02 AM »
Just but one example.

Which party slowed the growth of entitlement programs by slowing the rate of growth and which party howled like scalded cats when they did so?


Plane

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Re: Why I haven't been a Republican for many years now
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2010, 12:47:13 AM »
The Republican Party could stand a lot of improvement.

On this topic , the Republicans are almost the same as the Democrats in that they depend on Pork to bribe their constituants to vote for them. A shortsighted policy arrived at by accident , I think it proves that the short run must be survived for there to be a long run to worry about.

Although neither side has really earned credit for cutting spending , at least the Republicans do restrict the spigot of taxes , in theroy the spending can be slowed by reigning in the money availible to spend by keeping taxes low.

Credit spending keeps this theroy from working well.

The Democrats can answer the charge that they are the tax and spend party by snidely pointing out that the Republicans have become the Borrow and spend party.

Most of the government outlay right now is entitlement payments , to our disabled , aged , retired and frauds. It would be nice to subtract the frauds , but how?  I don't think there is a party that can develop the strength to reduce the entitlements much , there is bound to be a lot of resistance to takeing Grandmas payments back , reguardeless how necessacery , every looseing recipient can certainly point to someone elese who should have been cut first.

No one is going to wind up on the cutting party.

Universe Prince

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Re: Why I haven't been a Republican for many years now
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2010, 06:28:23 PM »

Just but one example.

Which party slowed the growth of entitlement programs by slowing the rate of growth and which party howled like scalded cats when they did so?


When the Republicans had the Presidency and Congress most recently, they greatly expanded Medicare, and the federal budget grew at a rate not seen since LBJ.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: Why I haven't been a Republican for many years now
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2010, 06:29:59 PM »

there is bound to be a lot of resistance to takeing Grandmas payments back


So don't take it. Phase the program out gradually, like Ron Paul has suggested.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: Why I haven't been a Republican for many years now
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2010, 07:25:00 PM »
http://www.newsweek.com/id/234362
         Ask most Republican politicians what they stand for, and they'll quickly pledge allegiance to the principles of limited government, restrained federal spending, and fiscal responsibility. But follow up and ask what policies are needed to achieve these goals, and the answers don't come as easily. In fact, to date, only one GOP legislator has drafted a comprehensive plan to cut spending, eliminate the deficit, and balance the federal budget.

Rep. Paul Ryan from Wisconsin is an energetic, wonky conservative who, at 40, has made it his mission to "fix the country's fiscal problem." And he's put forward a way to do so—a way that, at least in theory, could actually work. Ryan comes from a family of industrial earth-movers—the business, now run by his cousins, was started by his grandfather, and he helped out as a kid. They clear away obstructions so new foundations can be laid. And that's Ryan's goal, not just for the GOP, but eventually, he hopes, for the rest of America.

According to the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), which produces Congress's official projections about the long-term fiscal effects of legislation, Ryan's Roadmap for America’s Future would zero out the deficit, balance the budget by 2063, and reduce Medicare's expected share of the economy in 2080 from a projected 14.3 percent of GDP to a mere 4 percent. The Roadmap also calls for a substantial simplification of the tax code and a replacement of the corporate income tax with an 8.5 percent business consumption tax. CBO's projections are inherently uncertain—even the most competent economic forecasters can only guess at how the world will change over 50-plus years. But the result is, at the very least, a compelling conservative vision of the country's fiscal future.

In other words, it's a thoroughly radical idea. But talk to Ryan about the plan, and he'll insist that, despite all evidence to the contrary, drastic as it sounds, the American people are ready for it. "They know the fiscal situation's bad," he tells NEWSWEEK. "They know this debt is wrong. They know we've got a problem." Yet despite its concerns about the deficit, the public is also deeply attached to Social Security and Medicare.

And that's why Republicans are so skittish about Ryan's plan. Indeed, it's not clear that many of his fellow GOP legislators are willing to sign up for Ryan's hard-core brand of fiscal responsibility. Electorally, his plan may be more of a problem for the GOP than a solution. To date, his proposal, which is actually an update of a plan he initially put forth in 2008, has a mere nine cosponsors—mostly conservative stalwarts. A number of prominent Republicans, including presidential hopeful Tim Pawlenty and House Minority Leader John Boehner, have explicitly declined to support the proposal. At the same time, GOP leaders like Mitch McConnell, Michael Steele, and Newt Gingrich have all released statements staunchly opposing cuts to Medicare—the same sort of cuts that are crucial to Ryan's plan.

[...]

... Michael Tanner, a senior fellow at the libertarian Cato Institute and author of Leviathan on the Right: How Big-Government Conservatism Brought Down the Republican Revolution, says that Ryan's plan offers "one of the few serious plans in Washington." Yet he worries that "it is far too serious for today's Republicans."

[...]

... Asked about the barriers his own party has erected to entitlement reform, [Ryan's] response is a boilerplate dodge that begins, "I think we need to get beyond the old politics." Yet in the Republican Party, the old politics of pandering to seniors and posturing about unnamed spending cuts still rules. "The Ryan Roadmap is a test," says Cato's Tanner, "and right now the Republican Party is failing it."
         
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: Why I haven't been a Republican for many years now
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2010, 07:45:36 PM »
Quote
In fact, to date, only one GOP legislator has drafted a comprehensive plan to cut spending, eliminate the deficit, and balance the federal budget.

Not true. As anyone familiar with the Republican Study Group can attest.


Universe Prince

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Re: Why I haven't been a Republican for many years now
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2010, 06:13:18 AM »
Okay, so what are their plans? And when will we see them fight for their plans in Congress?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: Why I haven't been a Republican for many years now
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2010, 01:27:30 PM »
Your Rep. Paul Ryan is a member of that group. And they are close to 100 strong.

They and their Senate counterparts were responsible for the deficit reduction act which basically stated that any increase in expenditures for new programs has to be offset by reductions in others.






Universe Prince

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Re: Why I haven't been a Republican for many years now
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2010, 06:23:03 PM »
And we will see them get behind Paul Ryan's plan when, exactly?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: Why I haven't been a Republican for many years now
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2010, 07:53:53 PM »
Considering that Ryan's plan came out of that group i would say that they will get behind it as soon as Pelosi (D) allows it into committee and the floor.