Author Topic: The Ruling Elite Called - - hilarious  (Read 3014 times)

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The Ruling Elite Called - - hilarious
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2010, 11:50:53 AM »
Whether or not central planning  is a disaster or a success depends on what is planned. What is planned in turn, depends on the data about the resources, the people, the weather, all the factors that exist. The mantra is "garbage in, garbage out". In the 1950's, no one could predict much of anything, adequately. The planners of WWII ordered so much crap that it kept Army/Navy stores in business well into the 1970's. Mao's data was bad, and he lacked any way to crunch that data. And in addition, many of his premises were screwed up. The leaders of he PRC today generally do planning at a provincial or county level, and of course they have computers.


You can't blame "central planning" per se: you can blame what is planned and the facts that those plans are based upon. In China, the climate is too diverse to plan the same actions for the entire country.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: The Ruling Elite Called - - hilarious
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2010, 12:37:33 PM »
I checked out the Wikipedia article on the Great Chinese Famine at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

Even the article itself stated that natural disasters played a part in the famine.  Under the "discussion" tab for the same article, it quickly became apparent that this was far from the simplistic "Communism = Famine" paranoid Cold War fantasies of plane and others.  there does seem to be some connection between flawed agricultural policies, based on bad science (the idea that planting seeds closer together would increase yields because seeds of the same species would never compete with one another for soil nutrients, being one example) but junk science based on ideology (in this case, the collective ethic versus botanical science) is not a monopoly of communist systems.

To blame the famine entirely on communism is ludicrous. 

Moreover, since then, under communism, no further famines have followed.  This could not be said of the KMT regime or of any non-communist regime which preceded it.  Prior to communist rule, famine followed upon famine for 4,000 years of Chinese history.

Plane

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Re: The Ruling Elite Called - - hilarious
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2010, 08:20:42 PM »
I checked out the Wikipedia article on the Great Chinese Famine at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

Even the article itself stated that natural disasters played a part in the famine.  Under the "discussion" tab for the same article, it quickly became apparent that this was far from the simplistic "Communism = Famine" paranoid Cold War fantasies of plane and others.  there does seem to be some connection between flawed agricultural policies, based on bad science (the idea that planting seeds closer together would increase yields because seeds of the same species would never compete with one another for soil nutrients, being one example) but junk science based on ideology (in this case, the collective ethic versus botanical science) is not a monopoly of communist systems.

To blame the famine entirely on communism is ludicrous. 




Moreover, since then, under communism, no further famines have followed.  This could not be said of the KMT regime or of any non-communist regime which preceded it.  Prior to communist rule, famine followed upon famine for 4,000 years of Chinese history.


How do you blame anything on anyone?

Prior to Communist rule there was a famine every few decades , During communist rule there was a famine that they tried mightily to keep a secret , the worst that there has ever been.
Reduction in communist practice of Marxist doctrine has reduced the potential for famine , but the passage of time is not over how can you say that famine is now banished? What is preventing the next one if the prime cause of the last one was weather?

Michael Tee

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Re: The Ruling Elite Called - - hilarious
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2010, 10:17:18 PM »
<<How do you blame anything on anyone?>>

You match actions to results.  Hitler and the Nazis scream that the Jews are a curse, the armies that they command round up and gas the Jews, you blame Hitler and the Nazis for the Holocaust.

Had Mao promised to starve millions of Chinese to death and had the Chinese produced bumper crops but millions of Chinese starved to death regardless, you could figure out, especially if Mao's armies had locked up all the food, that the famine was caused by Mao and his Communist government.  As it happens, there were record floods and storms, a bad harvest, some bad science (Lysenkoism and associated doctrines) being applied to Chinese agriculture, and there was a famine.  Mistakes were made.  Capitalism makes plenty of its own.  Four thousand years of regular famine under non-Communist rulers were followed by ONE famine in the midst of bad weather and a correspondingly bad harvest under communism.  I'd say in those circumstances, that despite the one exception, Communism has licked famine in China.  Any attempt to blame Communism for Chinese famine is absurd.

<<Prior to Communist rule there was a famine every few decades , During communist rule there was a famine that they tried mightily to keep a secret , the worst that there has ever been.>>

Yeah, just ignore the weather and the crop production figures.  Blame it all on communism.  I blame the New Orleans flood on capitalism, how do you like that?  Classic example of post hoc, propter hoc reasoning.

<<Reduction in communist practice of Marxist doctrine has reduced the potential for famine , but the passage of time is not over how can you say that famine is now banished? What is preventing the next one if the prime cause of the last one was weather?>>

Communist organization of the state has proceeded even further, the state is better prepared.  Communist leadership has renounced junk science and Lysenkoism, we do not see any further famine and have no reason to suppose that the Communist system will be subject to famine ever again.  Unfortunately, we note that in many African countries which have so far failed to adopt a communist system of government, that famine is still rampant.  It is hard to understand why even in the 21st century, capitalism is unable to save these unfortunate folks from famine, isn't it?

Plane

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Re: The Ruling Elite Called - - hilarious
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2010, 10:52:42 PM »
 
Quote
It is hard to understand why even in the 21st century, capitalism is unable to save these unfortunate folks from famine, isn't it?

Capitolism and science have this potential.

Unfortunately central planning and social justice do not , and central planning and land reform are more popular than any science or effeciency measure in production of food.

If social justice is your main aim should you even care if the accomplishment of social justice directly or indirectly causes famines and mass death?

Plane

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Re: The Ruling Elite Called - - hilarious
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2010, 11:21:15 PM »
Forty years ago China was in the middle of the world's largest famine: between the spring of 1959 and the end of 1961 some 30 million Chinese starved to death and about the same number of births were lost or postponed. The famine had overwhelmingly ideological causes, rating alongside the two world wars as a prime example of what Richard Rhodes labelled public manmade death, perhaps the most overlooked cause of 20th century mortality.1 Two generations later China, which has been rapidly modernising since the early 1980s, is economically successful and producing adequate amounts of food. Yet it has still not undertaken an open, critical examination of this unprecedented tragedy.

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/319/7225/1619

The origins of the famine can be traced to Mao Zedong's decision, supported by the leadership of China's communist party, to launch the Great Leap Forward. This mass mobilisation of the country's huge population

Plane

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Re: The Ruling Elite Called - - hilarious
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2010, 11:29:35 PM »
For the sake of building his own brand of Chinese socialism, and as campaigns to undermine any real or imagined opposition in the party hierarchy, Mao would institute new waves of radical social transformation. The most famous of them was the Great Cultural Revolution of 1966-76. But the Great Cultural Revolution had its beginning in an earlier campaign — the Great Leap Forward of 1958-62. China's peasants were to be fully incorporated into the collective farm system and China was to launch a massive steel production campaign in every village and collective farm throughout the country to bring China into the industrial world within a handful of years.

It is this earlier Great Leap Forward campaign that is the theme of Jasper Becker's Hungry Ghosts: Mao's Secret Famine. That the Great Leap Forward resulted in a massive loss of human life has been known to experts in Chinese communism. R.J. Rummel, in his detailed account, China's Bloody Century: Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1900 (1991), devoted two chilling chapters to this period of Chinese history.

But Mr. Becker's book is the first account that is based on personal interviews with the survivors in many parts of China, as well as drawing upon new or recently released documents on the magnitude of this human disaster. In short, at least 30 million people died from a planned famine.
 
http://www.fff.org/freedom/0697f.asp

Knowing nothing about agriculture, Mao insisted that all the food China needed could be produced in less time on a fraction of the land then under cultivation. To curry favor with the "Great Helmsman" in Beijing, provincial and local party leaders throughout China drew up production plans promising to deliver fantastically unrealistic quantities of wheat and rice. No only did the harvests fall far short of the projections, but they fell far below previous levels of output. With millions of people diverted for Mao's gigantic infrastructure projects and with the basic tools needed for farm production stripped out of the peasants' hands for steel construction, it was inevitable that agricultural yields would drastically decline.

But the local and regional party leaders were determined to meet their targets for delivering what had been promised to the chairman. To meet their targets, they reduced the amount of food left for the peasants to live on. Teams of cadres were sent out to the villages to search for any hidden caches of grain not turned in to the authorities. Tens of millions were left with nothing to eat.

All the time, the peasants were in fact starving — in the millions. In their dreadful state, the peasants sank to the lowest form of human survival — they resorted to cannibalism. They dug up the bodies of the recently dead. They hid the fact that family members had died: first, to continue to obtain an extra food ration from the party distributors; and second, to hide the fact that the deceased had been eaten. Then, finally, at the lowest level of an instinct for survival, adults began to kill and eat their own children, usually trading their living child for that of a neighbor's, so they would not have to literally murder and eat their own son or daughter. Children would beg their parents not to let them be eaten.

And where was all the harvested grain seized by the provincial and local party officials? The vast majority of it was stuffed into government granaries. When some of the higher party officials received reports from relatives and friends around the country about the real state of the peasantry, Mao refused to be moved. He could not admit he had been wrong, both because it would undermine his own utopian fantasies and because it might shift power and influence away from himself to others in the party.

Finally, granaries were either opened or broken into. Peasant revolts occurred in various areas. Mao was forced to reverse course, but not publicly. All the shifts in policy were made to seem normal change and adjustment on the continuing road towards communism.

Thirty million people may have died because of his folly, but Mao would not forget that others in the party had challenged him — that they had made him admit that physical laws of nature had stood in his way of making China over in his own image. And in 1966, Mao launched the Great Cultural Revolution



Plane

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Re: The Ruling Elite Called - - hilarious
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2010, 11:39:45 PM »
Whether or not central planning is a disaster or a success depends on what is planned.

No it doesn't ,not at all .


You have missed the point.

Consider the genius of Napoleons , who would not only found a school , he would design the students uniforms ,his genius was always busy and his trust in his generals was only that they would follow orders.

Micromanagement from on high is a loosing idea no matter how genius the small group at the top is.

No person or committee of persons , even if quite large, is going to equal the wisdom of the whole population .

Management as near to the task as possible is a good goal, and impossible to approach by Communists who depend on the charm of a central genius to hold their movement together.

sirs

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Re: The Ruling Elite Called - - hilarious
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2010, 12:13:25 AM »
Again, so similar to what Sowell was opining.  Staggering the notion of how so many think they just know better than the rest of us, that they need to control us.  For our own good, of course.  So well intentioned.....and so completely & eternally flawed
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: The Ruling Elite Called - - hilarious
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2010, 12:56:34 AM »
<<Capitolism and science have this potential.>>

I wasn't clear on what potential you were referring to, but I took it to mean the potential to eliminate famine.

<<Unfortunately central planning and social justice do not , and central planning and land reform are more popular than any science or effeciency measure in production of food.>>

Upon what do you base such sweeping statements, that capitalism and science have the potential to eliminate famine but "central planning and social justice" do not? 

The fact is that communism has already eliminated famine in China after 4,000 years of failed non-communist efforts to do so.

<<If social justice is your main aim should you even care if the accomplishment of social justice directly or indirectly causes famines and mass death?>>

Sure I'd care - - where's the social justice when millions of innocents die in a famine?

Plane

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Re: The Ruling Elite Called - - hilarious
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2010, 01:16:40 AM »
<<Capitolism and science have this potential.>>

I wasn't clear on what potential you were referring to, but I took it to mean the potential to eliminate famine.

<<Unfortunately central planning and social justice do not , and central planning and land reform are more popular than any science or effeciency measure in production of food.>>

Upon what do you base such sweeping statements, that capitalism and science have the potential to eliminate famine but "central planning and social justice" do not? 

The fact is that communism has already eliminated famine in China after 4,000 years of failed non-communist efforts to do so.

<<If social justice is your main aim should you even care if the accomplishment of social justice directly or indirectly causes famines and mass death?>>

Sure I'd care - - where's the social justice when millions of innocents die in a famine?

Mao made 30 million die (give or take five or six million) but he did acheive social justice , lots and lots of social justice Mao unquestionabley produced fatal doses of social justice for many and miserable amounts of social justice for his whole nation.

It seems sometimes as if we are not discussing real people who spent real time as actual persons.

It was for the sake of communism that Mao centralised authority , and for worship of Mao that the yes men of the CCP promised high yeilds of grain while reduceing the workforce and melting down the tools.

When the crop yeilds were low it was good communists that confiscated the crop so much that most of the starveing was happening near the farms.

This is exactly what I think about when social justice is discussed in terms of socialism, you can make it sound nice and you can make it cost the people more than their worth to stay alive.

Note that this can't happen without central planning , if each farmer was manageing his own crop he would never sell away , or give away so much that his own family was starving. Nor would any farmer fail to plant enough to sell at market as was best possible if left alone.

Even though famine had been a reoccuring happening in Chinas history , never before had there been one that lasted nearly so long and took nearly so many lives , nor was any other famine so obscured by the government.

It is as if the entire population of Kenya were to die in misery , or as if the holocaust were to be multiplied by five , and no one takes notice.

Plane

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Re: The Ruling Elite Called - - hilarious
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2010, 01:26:04 AM »
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Which_country_has_a_population_30_million_people_and_has_the_second_biggest_surface_in_the_world



Well then Maos crime is no greater than the murder of Canada would be if it happened now.

If we are speaking only of the great famine and none other of Maos crimes .

Michael Tee

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Re: The Ruling Elite Called - - hilarious
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2010, 07:02:32 AM »
<<No person or committee of persons , even if quite large, is going to equal the wisdom of the whole population .>>

That is probably true in small groups, but the point is, how do you ascertain "the wisdom of the whole population" in practice?  Is it through representative democracy, so easily subjected to corruption?  The U.S.A., surely the world's leader in the development of representative democracy, has also - - inevitably - - led the world in the corruption of that democracy.  Today we have a situation in which the wealthiest have collaborated with the greediest; where the press, the military and the judiciary have all been corrupted in the interests of the country's real rulers, the  military-industrial complex and the national security state.  Don't like it and want a change?  Go ahead, vote for change - -  see how much change you get.  LMFAO.  Change.  Voting.  Voting for change.  Lotsa luck widdat!!!

Neither has communism solved this problem.  "Vanguard of the working class" sounds good, but once the Revolution is over, and you can't tell who's really sincere and who's not, because there's no more test of fire for the real revolutionaries, how do you keep the self-seeking careerists and adventurers out of the Party and its leadership?  Maybe the best that the Party can do is plan for the first fifty years after the triumph of the Revolution, laying down strict principles for material development and indoctrination of the people to make it as hard as possible for careerists and self-seekers to change the course of socialism, hoping that at least some general rise in the standards of popular education and material development will best prepare the nation for what must follow in the wake of the inevitable deterioration of the Party and its rule.  A population well-versed in the nature and principles of the class war will (hopefully) be less gullible, and less easily misled by demagogues and whores than one which has been indoctrinated with the idea that the class war does not even exist.

To blame one particular Chinese famine, one out of hundreds or even thousands of Chinese famines over at least four thousand years, on the evils of communism, is foolish, and to use it as "proof" of communism's inevitable failure, is totally absurd.  Were every famine that occurred under capitalism to be taken as "proof" of the failures of capitalism, we could prove the failure of capitalism a thousandfold more than we could prove the failure of communism.

Did Mao (and through him, the Party) make mistakes?  OF COURSE he did, who the hell didn't?  Did those mistakes contribute to the causes of a famine caused by crop failure and extreme weather conditions ?  Yes that is possible.  Is communism then a failure?  What kind of failure is it when it has not only abolished famine in China for the first time in 4,000 years, while famine continues to rage in capitalist-controlled Africa, but has positioned China for the first time in centuries as one of the world's leading powers, soon to be the first leading power?  Failure my ass!!!  It is capitalism which has failed, and is failing before our very eyes, and whatever frantic stop-gap measures are required to patch the failing system sufficiently together to lurch along for a few more desperate years are measures of government intervention and government management of failing capitalist institutions.

<<Management as near to the task as possible is a good goal, and impossible to approach by Communists who depend on the charm of a central genius to hold their movement together.>>

Nice straw-man, plane.  The "charm of a central genius" and the theory of Communism have absolutely nothing in common.