Author Topic: "Michael Moore's Shticko"  (Read 9005 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: "Michael Moore's Shticko"
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2007, 08:32:51 AM »
<<Everywhere I've lived, water was metered and you only paid for that which you consumed. Likewise, fuel taxes are supposed to pay for highways and airports, and people who don't travel pay no fuel taxes.

<<And it seems that public schools are the only thing in this list where you are correct. Simple solution - only people with children attending school should pay for schooling.>>

Absolutely hilarious - - like I get the same benefit from seeing you drinking a glass of water every day as I do from seeing a class of doctors, lawyers, architects, city planners, artists, writers, musicians, historians and scientists graduating every year.

_JS

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Re: "Michael Moore's Shticko"
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2007, 11:34:17 AM »
No, "we" don't pay. I haven't been to a doctor in years. I guarantee I  payed less for my health care over the last several years than anyone in one of your Euro-socialist health care systems did, even if they didn't use the services.

What you manage to ignore is that what is payed per capita is an average, it doesn't tell us anything about what any particular individual payed for health care. Why should the desires of people who consume large amounts of health care preempt the rights of people who don't?

Healthcare consumes 15% of the American economy and you think you've beat the system? I love it! That is the most naive view of economics I have read in years. Of course you pay! Avoiding the doctor and "guaranteeing you pay less for healthcare" directly does not mean that you aren't paying in indirect costs, considerably. Do you understand how much 15% of the American economy is? Yes, per capita is an average. Yet, a percentage of GDP is exactly what it says it is.

You don't escape that by avoiding the doctor. That has repercussions throughout the entire economy.

Quote
My heart bleeds. Some irresponsible parasite starts a family he can't afford to support, and thinks this entitles him to have it supported at the taxpayer's expense. Somehow, I'm not particularly filled with sympathy.

Ah, the Randian rugged individualist claptrap. Given the understanding of economics you show above, I'll let you continue to live in your own bizarre reality where society doesn't exist.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: "Michael Moore's Shticko"
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2007, 11:34:49 AM »
I think I saw it on 20/20
and several articles have been popping up lately on the subject of outsourced medical care
if I remember right
due to our highly restrictive laws
india even do more advanced experimental procedures.
the hip replacement procedure uses a hip part not available yet in the U.S.
the only draw back is it`s very hard to do follow ups.

Sorry Kimba, but nearly 99% of the articles I've read, not to mention those Dr's I've talked to, demonstrate the preponderance of people coming here for both elective surgeries & emergent surgeries.  I just had an inservice with 2 of our orthopedic physicians demonstrating the latest techniques in both the anterior approach to a THR (Total Hip Replacement), and in reverse shoulder replacements, primarily being done here in this country, (though I will concede the part made me made outside of this country).  Yea, we have restrictive laws, which is what's making the buracracy and stagnation of our current healthcare worse. If we realy want to muck it up even more, I can't think of a better way than to Federalize it, and REALLY lay on the restrictions & regulations
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: "Michael Moore's Shticko"
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2007, 11:52:57 AM »
I beg to differ.  Our equipment is 2nd to none.  Our research and development in new technology and medications are again 2nd to none.  People will travel thousands of miles to come HERE for their medical care, especially if it requires specialized care.  It becomes unimpressive as you start dealing with the layers and layers of bureacracy, that regulations bring upon an industry, not to mention the litigious beast this country has become.  We may not be a country that provides everyone health insurance (quantity), but we definately make up for it by the level of care and technology we provide (quality), and in the relative shortness of time it takes to get access to that quality

If our research in medications is so wonderful, why are so many new medications coming from European Pharmaceutical companies? Of the five largest pharmaceutical companies in the world, three are European (Sanofi-aventis, Novartis, GlaxoSmithKline). AstraZeneca is also one of the most famous and best at research and development, it is a UK and Austrian company, with a division in Sweden. It doesn't seem that these companies are hindered in their research and marketing at all by their "Euro-Socialism" or whatever juvenile names it has been called.

When 9/11 took place, they took burn victims to Montreal, where the burn centre is well known. So the United States is not the end all and be all of specialized care. Through my mom's work I am somewhat familiar with healthcare as well. I know that cardiac surgeons will fly to other nations to learn new procedures (France for example), so the knowledge is not one way by any means.

You are right about the queue for surgeries, especially elective surgeries in Europe. There are trade-offs. I never said there weren't.

Though, don't paint an unfair image of Canadian, French, English, German, Swedish, etc. doctors as somehow vastly inferior to ours in both technique and equipment. The differences, if any, are minimal.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: "Michael Moore's Shticko"
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2007, 12:22:07 PM »
Yo Js, I never claimed that the U.S was the "end all be all to healthcare".  Of course it has its flaws, made worse by ever increasing litigation & Federal intervention, not to mention the hoops pateints and doctors are required to jump thru in order to get insurance authorization and be payed for respecfully.  What I have made painfully clear is that it is superior to Universal Healthcare countries, in the quality of the service they provide, and how quickly one can gain access to that quality.  And given the choice, it's no contest in my book.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: "Michael Moore's Shticko"
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2007, 12:35:10 PM »
Can you answer my question about the pharmaceutical research?

(And can we please spell "paid" correctly? :) )

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: "Michael Moore's Shticko"
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2007, 01:02:33 PM »
Can you answer my question about the pharmaceutical research?

Your question that the U.S. isn't the only country to make pharmaceuticals??  Not sure what the pertinence to that is, since that wasn't in question.  Perhaps you read more into my 2nd to none reference as it relates to R&D, and perhaps was a little over the top.  Point being our country is a primary producer, along with some others you mentioned in medications.  I'm curious how much tax payers are paying for their R&D, while the companies here largely pay for it with their own monies.  In any case, again I'm primarily referencing the quality of the care being provided in the U.S. and the relatively quick access to that care


(And can we please spell "paid" correctly? :) )

I can be bought      ;)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

kimba1

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Re: "Michael Moore's Shticko"
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2007, 01:30:05 PM »
Sorry Kimba, but nearly 99% of the articles I've read, not to mention those Dr's I've talked to, demonstrate the preponderance of people coming here for both elective surgeries & emergent surgeries.

true ,but in the near future will this be true
the economics is making it harder
ex. a friend of mine saved 5k by flying his wife to the phillipines to give birth to his son.
his friends bugged him for being cheap.
which is nonsense since that money went toward caring for his son and pretty much dissappeared in a matter of months

sirs

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Re: "Michael Moore's Shticko"
« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2007, 01:41:36 PM »
Sorry Kimba, but nearly 99% of the articles I've read, not to mention those Dr's I've talked to, demonstrate the preponderance of people coming here for both elective surgeries & emergent surgeries.

true ,but in the near future will this be true

Only time will tell, but my best educated guess I can make, with my intimate understanding of the health care industry, yes.  Now. that doesn't stop people like your friends wanting to spend their own money to get even quicker intervention, but again compared to a Universal Healthcare system, I doubt very seriously you could get the same quick intervention than either here or in the Phillipines.

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Universe Prince

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Re: "Michael Moore's Shticko"
« Reply #54 on: July 03, 2007, 03:58:38 AM »

The truth is that no matter how you flip and arrange the numbers, the universal healthcare systems in the UK, Canada, and Sweden (along with many other countries, such as Australia) are vastly superior to the United States.


Vastly superior? I think it is not so. As explained in an article by Kurt Loder:

      The problem with American health care, Moore argues, is that people are charged money to avail themselves of it. In other countries, like Canada, France and Britain, health systems are far superior — and they're free. He takes us to these countries to see a few clean, efficient hospitals, where treatment is quick and caring; and to meet a few doctors, who are delighted with their government-regulated salaries; and to listen to patients express their beaming happiness with a socialized health system. It sounds great. As one patient in a British hospital run by the country's National Health Service says, "No one pays. It's all on the NHS. It's not America."

That last statement is even truer than you'd know from watching "Sicko." In the case of Canada — which Moore, like many other political activists, holds up as a utopian ideal of benevolent health-care regulation — a very different picture is conveyed by a short 2005 documentary called "Dead Meat," by Stuart Browning and Blaine Greenberg. These two filmmakers talked to a number of Canadians of a kind that Moore's movie would have you believe don't exist:

A 52-year-old woman in Calgary recalls being in severe need of joint-replacement surgery after the cartilage in her knee wore out. She was put on a wait list and wound up waiting 16 months for the surgery. Her pain was so excruciating, she says, that she was prescribed large doses of Oxycontin, and soon became addicted. After finally getting her operation, she was put on another wait list ? this time for drug rehab.

A man tells about his mother waiting two years for life-saving cancer surgery — and then twice having her surgical appointments canceled. She was still waiting when she died.

A man in critical need of neck surgery plays a voicemail message from a doctor he'd contacted: "As of today," she says, "it's a two-year wait-list to see me for an initial consultation." Later, when the man and his wife both needed hip-replacement surgery and grew exasperated after spending two years on a waiting list, they finally mortgaged their home and flew to Belgium to have the operations done there, with no more waiting.

Rick Baker, the owner of a Toronto company called Timely Medical Alternatives, specializes in transporting Canadians who don't want to wait for medical care to Buffalo, New York, two hours away, where they won't have to. Baker's business is apparently thriving.

And Dr. Brian Day, now the president of the Canadian Medical Association, muses about the bizarre distortions created by a law that prohibits Canadians from paying for even urgently-needed medical treatments, or from obtaining private health insurance. "It's legal to buy health insurance for your pets," Day says, "but illegal to buy health insurance for yourself." (Even more pointedly, Day was quoted in the Wall Street Journal this week as saying, "This is a country in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week and in which humans can wait two to three years.")

Actually, this aspect of the Canadian health-care system is changing. In 2005, the Canadian Supreme Court ruled in favor of a man who had filed suit in Quebec over being kept on an interminable waiting list for treatment. In striking down the government health care monopoly in that province, Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin said, "Access to a waiting list is not access to health care." Now a similar suit has been filed in Ontario.

What's the problem with government health systems? Moore's movie doesn't ask that question, although it does unintentionally provide an answer. When governments attempt to regulate the balance between a limited supply of health care and an unlimited demand for it they're inevitably forced to ration treatment. This is certainly the situation in Britain. Writing in the Chicago Tribune this week, Helen Evans, a 20-year veteran of the country's National Health Service and now the director of a London-based group called Nurses for Reform, said that nearly 1 million Britons are currently on waiting lists for medical care — and another 200,000 are waiting to get on waiting lists. Evans also says the NHS cancels about 100,000 operations each year because of shortages of various sorts. Last March, the BBC reported on the results of a Healthcare Commission poll of 128,000 NHS workers: two thirds of them said they "would not be happy" to be patients in their own hospitals. James Christopher, the film critic of the Times of London, thinks he knows why. After marveling at Moore's rosy view of the British health care system in "Sicko," Christopher wrote, "What he hasn't done is lie in a corridor all night at the Royal Free [Hospital] watching his severed toe disintegrate in a plastic cup of melted ice. I have." Last month, the Associated Press reported that Gordon Brown — just installed this week as Britain's new prime minister — had promised to inaugurate "sweeping domestic reforms" to, among other things, "improve health care."

Moore's most ardent enthusiasm is reserved for the French health care system, which he portrays as the crowning glory of a Gallic lifestyle far superior to our own. The French! They work only 35 hours a week, by law. They get at least five weeks' vacation every year. Their health care is free, and they can take an unlimited number of sick days. It is here that Moore shoots himself in the foot. He introduces us to a young man who's reached the end of three months of paid sick leave and is asked by his doctor if he's finally ready to return to work. No, not yet, he says. So the doctor gives him another three months of paid leave — and the young man immediately decamps for the South of France, where we see him lounging on the sunny Riviera, chatting up babes and generally enjoying what would be for most people a very expensive vacation. Moore apparently expects us to witness this dumbfounding spectacle and ask why we can't have such a great health care system, too. I think a more common response would be, how can any country afford such economic insanity?

As it turns out, France can't. In 2004, French Health Minister Philippe Douste-Blazy told a government commission, "Our health system has gone mad. Profound reforms are urgent." Agence France-Presse recently reported that the French health-care system is running a deficit of $2.7 billion. And in the French presidential election in May, voters in surprising numbers rejected the Socialist candidate, Ségolène Royal, who had promised actually to raise some health benefits, and elected instead the center-right politician Nicolas Sarkozy, who, according to Agence France-Presse again, "plans to move fast to overhaul the economy, with the deficit-ridden health care system a primary target." Possibly Sarkozy should first consult with Michael Moore. After all, the tax-stoked French health care system may be expensive, but at least it's "free."
      

There is also a nice bit about the Cuba part of Moore's film, but the only part of the article I think I really need to repeat here, is this:

      As the Caribbean sun sank down on Moore's breathtakingly meretricious movie, I couldn't help recalling that when Fidel Castro became gravely ill last year, he didn't put himself in the hands of a Cuban surgeon. No. Instead, he had a specialist flown in — from Spain.      

Even Castro, the great Cuban leader protecting "the Revolution" from free speech and capitalism, had to look outside his country to get the medical help he needed. And I doubt most of the citizens of Cuba have access such medical care, hence the need to bring in doctor from another country.

I have to say, I am not at all enthusiastic about government run universal health care. And as I see what appears, to me at least, to be evidence that other socialized health care systems are starting to suffer the long-term detrimental effects that seem to be inherent in such programs, I have to question the wisdom of trying to establish such a system here in the U.S. Yes, the U.S. heath care system needs improvement in many areas, but I have no faith that a government run system is going to be the solution we need.

Whole article at the other end of this link. The short film "Dead Meat" mentioned above can be found at the other end of this link.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2007, 05:43:52 AM by Universe Prince »
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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_JS

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Re: "Michael Moore's Shticko"
« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2007, 10:27:39 AM »
Oh please Prince, anectdotal evidence?

Would you like me to find some articles on lousy healthcare treatment in the United States?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

kimba1

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Re: "Michael Moore's Shticko"
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2007, 04:15:00 PM »
i thought of going to mensa but i couldn`t figure out where to apply.
but i did date a girl with a high IQ(several in fact)
she was soo funny,always thinking I`m stupid and thinking I`m pretending I know stuff
she actually quized me on shakespear when I said I studied romeo and juliet.
I answered every question right.
but soft what light through yonder window breaks.
better memory,greater problem solving and a intuitive grasp of concepts are cool
but a high ego will make you a very lonely person.
she is super hot looking ,but wow quite a unpleasent person.



Universe Prince

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Re: "Michael Moore's Shticko"
« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2007, 10:43:50 PM »

Oh please Prince, anectdotal evidence?

Would you like me to find some articles on lousy healthcare treatment in the United States?


No, not really. But I don't see why you're annoyed. I didn't say health care in Great Britain or France or wherever was horrible. I suggested it was not, as you claimed, "vastly superior". If anything, I think the most we can say with any accuracy is that their health care and ours is really about the same, all things considered. Yes, they treat everyone, but they also make people wait for many operations much longer than most patients in the U.S. have to wait. And I have to say, from where I sit, the issues with the governments funding the health care programs are not anecdotal but innate. And at some point the amount of anecdotal evidence stops being merely anecdotal and starts being evidence of systemic problems. For me the evidence has already reached that point. If you have some reason why I should believe every anecdotal case I've seen to date is an isolated aberration and that there are not significantly more such cases out there, then please present it.

I don't need to see more examples of people in America not getting the health care they need or suffering in the system. I know those cases exist. I've seen plenty of those. But then, I'm not arguing that the American health care system does not need serious improvements. It does need them, and I know it does, and I've said as much several times in this thread alone. What I'm arguing is that socialized health care systems are not going to solve the problems we face in the manner that people like Moore and you are promoting them. This notion that socialized health care is vastly superior is an illusion. Yes, I know, the countries with socialized medicine spend less per capita. They do so by artificially setting prices and by limiting the number of procedures performed, hence the waiting lists.

Maybe you missed what I said in previous post, JS, so I'll say it all again.

I don't question the value of universal health care. What I question is having the government run it. There are charity hospitals and doctor's offices. And there are doctors who have found the costs of running their doctor's offices drops when they stop accepting Medicare and all that. And many of those doctors also find they can now charge according to what people can afford pay. And even pharmaceutical companies are starting to advertise that they can help people who have trouble affording their medications. And there are a number of drug discount plans available.  So it seems to me we can find solutions in the private market rather than having to rely on the government. Yes, I know, the charity hospitals are not now doing all this, and not everyone has access to doctors who charge according what people can afford to pay and all that. But I would venture to say that if we put as much effort into promoting workable private sector solutions as we do into promoting government run universal health care, we could change the way health care is handled in this country without forcing everyone to pay into a government run system. Would it be perfect? No. But as you pointed out, no system is going to be perfect.

And for the record, I think universal health care is a good idea. I just happen to think we should find ways to do it in the private sector rather than have a government run program. No, I don't have all the answers as to how that would work, but then, I don't need to have all the answers. There are 300 million people in this country, many of whom could contribute good ideas, and I'm sure we can work something out. I'm not saying there is no room for some group to help coordinate efforts. This is something that perhaps the Red Cross could do. Some of the churches who run hospitals of their own would, I am fairly sure, like to help with such a program. So I have faith that we could do it, if we wanted to. The problem is, we don't want to. We want government to do it for us.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--