Author Topic: Which Belief System or Orientation Best Reflects America's Structural Values?  (Read 2163 times)

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yellow_crane

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That's the given wisdom, and practice. But not much would sacrificed (and I propose much might be gained by a reinvigoration of spiritual life) by adopting universalism as an organizing principle, which openly embraces every good-faith sspiritual orientation, including agnosticism and atheism.


Yeah, that would work. 

Get them all together under one roof, and tell them to turn and hug each other.

You better check for knives at the door first.

Tell them that, unavoidably, to make all of spiritual America much more like a Disney flik, they would all have to water down their beliefs, since those pesky little notions like ' . . . except that you worship a carpenter, you cannot ever, ever get up to heaven" . . .'  are a real conference killer.

There is no bigger 'what's-the-use' out there than "except by Me", and it always clogs any sincere negotiations.

In fact, it leaves no room.

How many wars were started over the word 'infidel'?

Can you not see that these "religions" bring it all upon themselves?

Why are you or I responsible for their inability to account for themselves, their inability to coexist in harmony like you or I?

Is it too much to expect them to hold themselves accountable, like everybody else has to do?

Unfortunately, some of the existing maladies of dangerous dysfunction  in America will need a paradigm shift.  A universal demand for accountability would probably be shift enough.

You and I cannot end our differences with a sword, so why should they think and openly advocate that they can?

Some goddamned body should step forward and approach, with respect but with mighty firmness, religious America and tell them their privledged plastic is being pulled, due to over-charge.

Truth is, it has become an invisible caste.  There is little that Bush has done to empower his Christian base that does not reek of simple, bestowed privledge.  If you carry a Bible in your pocket, you are automatically a member of the new elite.  You may not believe that it is true, or I might not, but you have to admit that they think it is.




Michael Tee

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<<The Constitution is no more secular than you are.>>

I'm secular all the way.  100%.  It's my wife that makes the kids get married in synagogues.

<<The Constitution is nuetral. No established religions.>>

That's what secular means.

<< Staes were allowed to do as they saw fit.>>

They're not allowed to violate people's Constitutional rights.  They can't establish religions.

<<One of the first acts of the first congress was to appoint chaplains paid by the public purse.>>

It's unconstitutional.  That action didn't receive the same scrutiny and deliberation as went into the Constitution and the members just, frankly, fucked up on that.  But what they did is not enshrined in the Constitution.  They could have been voted out and if a new Congress had come in and fired all the chaplains, nobody could have claimed that was unconstitutional.

<<Hardly a secular action.>>

Congress didn't always follow the Constitution.  Sometimes the courts had to straighten them out, sometimes it was just overlooked.  The fact remains:  the Constitution is a secular document.

Michael Tee

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<<That's the given wisdom, and practice.>>

I submit that's because (1) it's the obvious intent and (2) it's worked just fine.

<< But not much would sacrificed . . . >>

A principle would be sacrificed.  A very important and revolutionary principle (for its time) that has been the cornerstone of personal freedom and minority rights in your country.

<<(and I propose much might be gained by a reinvigoration of spiritual life) >>

Do you REALLY believe that POLITICIANS are going to usher in a "reinvigoration of spiritual life?"  These guys are now spiritual?  That's a new one to me.  Somehow the country works fine on a division of labour - - carpenters carpent, doctors heal the sick (if the sick can afford it), movie stars make movies and religious leaders try to maintain and even reinvigorate the spiritual life.  Works better than having carpenters heal the sick, doctors making movies and politicians attending to our spiritual reinvigoration.

<<by adopting universalism as an organizing principle, which openly embraces every good-faith sspiritual orientation, including agnosticism and atheism.>>

Well, you see the problem, don't you?  Every good-faith spiritual orientation?  Holy shit they'd be tied up from now till the end of time trying to figure out what's a "good-faith" spiritual orientation.  I can foresee the RCC running into some strong opposition there, let alone the Nation of Islam and some of its kookier off-shoots.  You are leaving these questions to be decided by POLITICIANS, domer.  P-O-L-I-T-I-C-I-A-N-S.  Get the picture?

Xavier_Onassis

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he beginning of the country, states were permitted to have an established religion. I think Maryland's legislature, mostly to bug the Catholics, declared the Anglican Church to be the established religion.

But this is no longer done or permitted.

Atheism is not a religion for the vast majority of atheists. It is the absence of religion, which is a different thing entirely.

You could write the Head of the Atheist Church and have him tell you this... if there were such a person and he would admit to it.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Lanya

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Secularism is a good base.
Home cooks can add their favorite spices and ingredients, and none of the rest of us have to suffer it.


What if the secularism is demanded and your own spices are forbidden?
Then you have a case for the court system.
Planned Parenthood is America’s most trusted provider of reproductive health care.

BT

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Quote
Atheism is not a religion for the vast majority of atheists. It is the absence of religion, which is a different thing entirely.

The 7th Circuit Cout of appeals begs to differ. They ruled that atheism should be treated as a religion, just as scotus ruled that secular humanism should be treated as a religion.

http://www.ca7.uscourts.gov/tmp/4W1D6XHG.pdf


Plane

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<<One of the first acts of the first congress was to appoint chaplains paid by the public purse.>>

It's unconstitutional.  That action didn't receive the same scrutiny and deliberation as went into the Constitution and the members just, frankly, fucked up on that.  But what they did is not enshrined in the Constitution.  They could have been voted out and if a new Congress had come in and fired all the chaplains, nobody could have claimed that was unconstitutional.

<<Hardly a secular action.>>

Congress didn't always follow the Constitution.  Sometimes the courts had to straighten them out, sometimes it was just overlooked.  The fact remains:  the Constitution is a secular document.



So in your opinion , the group that wrestled the Constitution out of months of discussion, argument  and compromise did not understand what they had written.


gipper

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Please note: in my question I did not ask what should be the "official" stance of the US government. As we are discovering, there can be no "official stance." The question as phrased was primarily aimed at personal orientation, the stuff of "coffee shop politics," and therefrom the "informal" (but discernible) orientation the government must take as a default position.

Amianthus

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he beginning of the country, states were permitted to have an established religion. I think Maryland's legislature, mostly to bug the Catholics, declared the Anglican Church to be the established religion.

I'm pretty sure it was the other way around - Roman Catholicism was the established religion of Maryland.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

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In the beginning of the country, states were permitted to have an established religion. I think Maryland's legislature, mostly to bug the Catholics, declared the Anglican Church to be the established religion.
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I'm pretty sure it was the other way around - Roman Catholicism was the established religion of Maryland.

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You can be entirely sure if you like. But you are wrong. You can look it up, or continue believing this.

A friend of mine that I knew when I was teaching in Charles Co. MD did a paper on this subject.
 
The Episcopals/Anglicans (I forget which name the Church of England assumed after the Revolution) gained control of the legislature and declared that they were the official religion.

Maryland was established by Lord Baltimore as a haven for English Catholics. But they no longer controlled the legislature by the 1780's or 90's.

Look it up or don't.

This has been changed since, of course. Now Maryland has no established religion.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."