Atheists vs. Grace

[The_Professor]

this is why people leave
A friend of mine was told children of divorce parents are all going to hell.
so he got up and left since he saw no reason to bother and stay there anymore.
painting an image of no redemption is a tough sell for religions

Churches are fallible because they are filled with fallible people. Look to the Creator, not the created. God is a God of grace, but His people rarely are.

[The_Professor]

I got up and left after the pastor told us who to vote for in 2000.

Never been sorry. 

I doubt it was just this one incident that caused you to leave, Lanya.

[Xavier_Onassis]

The reason I no longer attend church is that I disagree with the view that the Bible could be the word of God. There is way too much nonsense in it for it to be the work of any omnipotent being. God in the Old Testament is a nasty, vengeful fellow, who made people imperfectly and then blames them for their imperfections.

There is far too much silliness in the book of Genesis. Much of the 'history' claimed by the Bible simply could not or did not happen as described.

When one looks at a well-designed machine, one sees simplicity at the heart of every part. There is no reason for malaria to exist, or HIV, or smallpox. They would naturally develop by an evolutionary process, but no sane and loving God would ever have dreamed them up for any reason other than sheer cruelty. There is not a lot of cool programming evident in the structure of organisms on this planet, nor even in the Solar System.

After attending church for about 20 years, it was a rerun every Sunday, and it was not improving my life more than watching reruns of Gilligan. So I stopped going.
I am sure that it does other people more good than it does me, but only because they tell me so.

[Cynthia]

"There is no reason for malaria to exist, or HIV, or smallpox."


Maybe Eve should have paid more attention to God.  Afterall, these examples of sin explain why we all live within a diseased and sickly world. Not to say it's the cause of man because man/woman does not attend churc...nor is it because God is angry at gays to the point of punitive actions...., But we live in Sin...it just "is". ...A SINFUL WORLD.

Sin means different things to different people. But to the Christian who believes in the words of Christ, sin is something easily explained and not to be "ashamed of". Evil is also part of the antithesis of the Word of God, and most non believers do not want to admit in evil, either, but they are both easily understood if the veil in the eye has been lifted. . THus, a born again believer's "aha" moment. Unless, one takes that leap of faith in God instead of what one pastors says on one given day..... or the fact that God hasn't done His job as a puppet master....one will not see that truth.
A puppet master God is not.
 To the unbeliever, God is supposed to heal all all the time. Sure, He promised those miracles, but not in this world necessarily, albeit in this world many miracles happen every day for those who truly believe in the Lord.
TO the Christian, there is the deep desire to live without sin, and to love thy neighbor, and to fight the evil in the world with Love. There is also an understanding that humans aren't GOD and that there is the potential for both love and hate

 God's love goes beyond this earth. It's called the eternal life "thing". I choose to believe it, as I am a Christian. I have a personal relationship with the Lord, and with my Church. I once chose the opposite, to believe in the new age thing, and there truly is a difference. Faith is at the heart of this. Logic is to be debated, and yet, if one has no faith in God, the arguement still remains the same.....such as XO's quote....
Praying to God......having a personal relationship with God is more than "attending church or having faith in one pastor  at the pulpit".

[yellow_crane]

I got up and left after the pastor told us who to vote for in 2000.

Never been sorry. 

I doubt it was just this one incident that caused you to leave, Lanya.

Why would that be?

What other betrayal of professional stature would you require?

Making a simple and honest assessment of a preacher who would tell anybody, from the pulpit, how to vote, all under the aegis of religious righteousness, pretty much tells someone who is thinking and not just slavering just who is and who is not performing their religious function.

I would have done the same thing.

[Cynthia]

"I doubt it was just this one incident that caused you to leave, Lanya"


Just like the old saying......when one thinks he or she has lost a "friend"...... If it was that easy to lose said friend, then
more than likely said "one"never had much of a "said friend" to begin with.

Of course people like yellow crane would have done the same thing. No big loss to those who never invested in believing in God instead of the ineptness of one pastor.

Not saying that Lanya wasn't a true believer once upon a time, or that she just decided that pastor wasn't for her....don't know the facts, but I *am saying* that I agree with the Professor on this one. To walk out because a pastor crossed the human lines of church and state......well, it does sound as though there might be more to the story.

[Cynthia]

on the side of born again folks....I have to include this culture vulture post.

It's grace all over the place.

PBS. Gotta love it/them/those who broadcast the best the modern day guitarist cranks up. Eric is on the program tonight..and hasn't left any building unturned.
Talk about born again. I grew up with nothing but classical music....I am now a born againer when it comes to the classics of this man's touch.

Clapton on the tube tonight.
Gawd....he's got a gift.

 Comparable to modern day classical music.

Beethoven roll over!

[Xavier_Onassis]

I agree, Eric Clapton is great.

PBS is to be commended for showing him in concert.

[Lanya]

I got up and left after the pastor told us who to vote for in 2000.

Never been sorry. 

I doubt it was just this one incident that caused you to leave, Lanya.

You're right, but that was the straw that broke the camel's back (to use a biblical phrase).
I think that was the service in which he also said, "We ARE the Religious RIght!"
And my head reared back like I'd been slapped. I looked around, people were nodding.  Oh HELL no.
I go to the Catholic church in the afternoons occasionally.  That is a really quiet time, and the light streams in just so, the sounds are reverent, the candles flicker. It is a spiritual experience. 

[Cynthia]

I agree, Eric Clapton is great.

PBS is to be commended for showing him in concert.

Would love to see him in concert live!

[The_Professor]

I agree, Eric Clapton is great.

PBS is to be commended for showing him in concert.

Would love to see him in concert live!

Another rock great passed away today, Dan Fogelberg. At only 56.

[Cynthia]

I agree, Eric Clapton is great.

PBS is to be commended for showing him in concert.

Would love to see him in concert live!

Yes, I saw that, Professor. Sad.
Today is Beethoven's 237th birthday.

Another rock great passed away today, Dan Fogelberg. At only 56.