Violation of the Constitution

[Universe Prince]

How about the part where I've said that "perpsective" is in no way referencing being "no big deal"?

And then you proceeded to talk about it as if the abuse was merely making prisoners listen to loud music and wearing underwear on their heads. When I take your comments in context, I don't know how anyone can come away from your explanation without an impression that you think the Abu Ghraib abuses were no big deal.

How about the part where I've consistently criticized abuses that go over the line, and need prosecuting.

Over what line? The line of basic human rights, or the line of if they did it for fun then I'll condemn it? What line are we talking about?

How about the part that making one wear underpants on their head is nothing in relation to having one's head cut off?

How about the part where they had batons shoved up their asses? How about the part where they were made to crawl on the floor while naked? How about the part where prisoners sustained injury or even died as a result of the abuse? How does that correlate to having underwear on one's head?

Your "impression" meter needs a major overhaul, Prince

Oh, I dunno. I think you're doing a good job of indicating how accurate it is.

In what way are you not minimizing the abuse that happened at Abu Ghraib?

Presenting perspective when trying to debate those who claim such abuses at Abu Graib are akin to "abuses" at the hands of terrorists is focused on dismantling the notion of how analogus they're supposed to be.  Do you see how it's being presented yet?  It's not defending U.S. abuses, it's condeming the notion that abuses are equal in stature.

Do I see how it's being presented yet? Yes. I see that you're talking about loud music and sleep deprivation when the abuses were much greater. I see that you're saying being forced to wear underwear on one's head is nothing compared to a beheading as if that were the worst of the abuses when we both know it is not even remotely close to the worst. It's not defending U.S. abuses, it's just minimizing them so that complaints about them seem trivial. Yes, I see exactly how it's being presented.

The abuse included prisoners forced to strip and have sex, prisoners raped and sodomized

Do you see anyone supporting that?

No, just minimizing and dismissing as if such were nothing more or nothing worse than loud music and underwear on heads.

Did you notice that such acts have been criticized,

Yes. And I noticed that such acts have been compared to college frat pranks and glossed over as if they were just a little sleep deprivation.

and those creating those acts are to be prosecuted?

Yes, and since you brought the subject up, I'll say something about it. Some people, not you but some people, think bothering with this sort of thing undermines the "war effort". If anyone encounters someone like that, I recommend leaving the immediate area and to keep one's children away from such people.

And if the snarling dogs and "threat" (was it an actual threat or faked threat) of electrocution was simply being done to abuse prisoners for fun, that's to be condemned as well.

That sort of comment is the kind that makes me wonder where your "line" is.

Do you see that's still no where near being beheaded or burned alive??

Do you see that it is nowhere near being made to listen to loud music? I don't care one iota whether it is near being beheaded or being burned alive. I care that it is serious and grotesque abuse that should not be tolerated under any circumstances. And I see that you're still trying to minimize it.

[sirs]

And then you proceeded to talk about it as if the abuse was merely making prisoners listen to loud music and wearing underwear on their heads

Yea, those'd be the ones I have absolutely no problem with

When I take your comments in context, I don't know how anyone can come away from your explanation without an impression that you think the Abu Ghraib abuses were no big deal.

Well, as I said, you need your impression meter rebooted, because you're consistently taking them out of context.  I should be getting used to it by now

Over what line? The line of basic human rights, or the line of if they did it for fun then I'll condemn it? What line are we talking about?

The one that abuses prisoners just for the hell of it vs those supposed "abuses" when prisoners taken off the battlefield are being interrogated.  When harm becomes physical damage or dismemberment or made to perform sex acts.  THOSE are over the line.  The use of mental and even physical strain, when interrogating prisoners taken off the battlefield is NOT over the line

How about the part where they had batons shoved up their asses?

OVER

How about the part where they were made to crawl on the floor while naked?

OVER, if the guards are just doing it for fun

How about the part where prisoners sustained injury or even died as a result of the abuse?

OVER

How does that correlate to having underwear on one's head?

When that's one of the references being made equating our abuses to that of what the Terrorists do.  As if we're doing the same to each other.  The other neat trick here is that when the Terrorists go "over the line" they all high five each other.  When our soldiers do it, they're to be properly condemned & prosecuted

Do I see how it's being presented yet? Yes. I see that you're talking about loud music and sleep deprivation when the abuses were much greater

And have you also noted how those abuses that go beyond "loud music" are being consistently condemned yet??   

Yes, I see exactly how it's being presented.

Obviously not

just minimizing and dismissing as if such were nothing more or nothing worse than loud music and underwear on heads

See what I mean.  Completely ignoring the condemnations I personally have made for such over the top abuses, while you keep placating the notion that the only "abuses" I've referenced or focused on was the underwear & loud music.  Personally Prince, I think I've had enough of this misrepresenting of yours I can take for the evening.  Perhaps I'll jump back to any responses of yours tomorrow, when I can again remind myself that you're one of the good guys

[Universe Prince]

When I take your comments in context, I don't know how anyone can come away from your explanation without an impression that you think the Abu Ghraib abuses were no big deal.

Well, as I said, you need your impression meter rebooted, because you're consistently taking them out of context.  I should be getting used to it by now

Taking them out of context? Where? I've quoted you extensively. Quoted entire posts. I've even kept your quote of my comments where necessary so that I specifically do not take your comments out of context. I fail to see how I've taken any your comments out of context.

Over what line? The line of basic human rights, or the line of if they did it for fun then I'll condemn it? What line are we talking about?

The one that abuses prisoners just for the hell of it vs those supposed "abuses" when prisoners taken off the battlefield are being interrogated.  When harm becomes physical damage or dismemberment or made to perform sex acts.  THOSE are over the line.  The use of mental and even physical strain, when interrogating prisoners taken off the battlefield is NOT over the line

How about the part where they had batons shoved up their asses?

OVER

How about the part where they were made to crawl on the floor while naked?

OVER, if the guards are just doing it for fun

How about the part where prisoners sustained injury or even died as a result of the abuse?

OVER

Hey, look, you've said certain things are "over the line". How nice. It really doesn't change what you said initially in your "clarification" but at least now we have some basis for your claims of having "consistently criticized abuses". I'll get back to this later, but here's a clue: I have not read all of your posts, and even if I had, I would not have a complete catalog of all your statements in my head.

How does that correlate to having underwear on one's head?

When that's one of the references being made equating our abuses to that of what the Terrorists do.  As if we're doing the same to each other.  The other neat trick here is that when the Terrorists go "over the line" they all high five each other.  When our soldiers do it, they're to be properly condemned & prosecuted

You got a quote for that? I'd like to see this supposed equating of underwear on heads to beheadings. Anyway, the point of the question was how do the more serious abuses compare to the abuses you listed in your initial response to me in this thread.

Do I see how it's being presented yet? Yes. I see that you're talking about loud music and sleep deprivation when the abuses were much greater

And have you also noted how those abuses that go beyond "loud music" are being consistently condemned yet??   

One question mark is sufficient. Anyway, no, I'm not seeing the consistant condemnations yet. Okay, you said they were over the line. When do I see you call them disgusting and abhorant? When I do see you condemning the equating of the abuses to college frat pranks? In this thread, I've seen none of that so far. You chimed in not to agree with me in this, but to contradict me, to "clarify" that "perspective" meant being made to listen to loud music is not the same as being set on fire. A comparison which I never made, and which I don't recall having seen anyone else make.

just minimizing and dismissing as if such were nothing more or nothing worse than loud music and underwear on heads

See what I mean.  Completely ignoring the condemnations I personally have made for such over the top abuses, while you keep placating the notion that the only "abuses" I've referenced or focused on was the underwear & loud music.  Personally Prince, I think I've had enough of this misrepresenting of yours I can take for the evening.

Ignoring the condemnations you personally have made? Oh, I'm sorry. Let me look in the catalog of "Condemnations Personally Made by Sirs"... oops, wait, no, that doesn't actually exist. And so far in this thread, you've called them "over the line". Wow. Real strong condemnation there. Geez. Why didn't I think of that? Anyway, if you'd bother to look back at the conversation, you might see why I'm criticizing you for not mentioning the more serious abuses. It's because you didn't mention them. In your "clarification" post you mentioned only prisoners being made to wear underwear on their heads, being made to listen to loud music, and being deprived of sleep. Now if you want to show me where someone actually said being made to have underwear on one's head is the same as beheading, I'll be happy to join you in declaring that person to be overreacting. In the meantime, that you did not mention anything more serious sure looks to me like you were minimizing the abuses. The idea that somehow the folks who were comparing the abuse there to the actions of terrorists were only concerned with a little loud music or sleep deprivation, well, you have got to be kidding me. And for the record, I'm not comparing the two. My anger in this matter has nothing to do with whatever standards the terrorists have, and everything to do with the standards I expected us to have.

I know of no reason to not insist that the calls to put the Abu Ghraib abuse into perspective were attempts to minimize the abuse. Every instance of that I can recall was about how the abuses were nothing worse that one might see in a frat house, or that to discuss it is to tarnish the good name of the military, or that caring what happened there was caring about the rights of mass murders (as if that were some sort excuse to abuse people), or some such. All of it intended to say that it's really just a minor thing, and not worth getting upset over. I do not agree, and that someone would consider minimizing the abuse is appalling to me. I realize to some people that pigeonholes me into the same category as those who want America to fail, who care more about terrorists than our own troops, but I refuse to apologize for my outrage. I do believe this abuse is something the majority of our troops would never do. But that doesn't lessen my anger. And frankly, I'm disgusted that some people want to try to tell me that I should not be so angry about it because we're not as bad as the terrorists, or that we need to put America ahead of our concerns about rights. We're supposed to be better than that.

Perhaps I'll jump back to any responses of yours tomorrow, when I can again remind myself that you're one of the good guys

Pooh yi.