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Rich

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Noonan Article
« on: January 25, 2008, 01:28:14 PM »
Breaking Up Is Hard to Do
By PEGGY NOONAN
January 25, 2008

We begin, as one always must now, again, with Bill Clinton. The past week he has traveled South Carolina, leaving discord in his wake. Barack Obama, that "fairytale," is low, sneaky. "He put out a hit job on me." The press is cruelly carrying Mr. Obama's counter-jabs. "You live for it."

In Dillon, S.C., according to the Associated Press, on Thursday Mr. Clinton "predicted that many voters will be guided mainly by gender and race loyalties" and suggested his wife may lose Saturday's primary because black voters will side with Mr. Obama. Who is raising race as an issue? Bill Clinton knows. It's the press, and Mr. Obama. "Shame on you," Mr. Clinton said to a CNN reporter. The same day the Web site believed to be the backdoor of the Clinton war room unveiled a new name for the senator from Illinois: "Sticky Fingers Obama."

Bill Clinton, with his trembly, red-faced rage, makes John McCain look young. His divisive and destructive daily comportment?this is a former president of the United States?is a civic embarrassment. It is also an education, and there is something heartening in this.

There are many serious and thoughtful liberals and Democrats who support Mr. Obama and John Edwards, and who are seeing Mr. Clinton in a new way and saying so. Here is William Greider in The Nation, the venerable left-liberal magazine. The Clintons are "high minded" on the surface but "smarmily duplicitous underneath, meanwhile jabbing hard at the groin area. They are a slippery pair and come as a package. The nation is at fair risk of getting them back in the White House for four years."

That, again, is from one of the premier liberal journals in the United States. It is exactly what conservatives have been saying for a decade. This may mark a certain coming together of the thoughtful on both sides. The Clintons, uniters at last.

Mr. Obama takes the pummeling and preaches the high road. It's all windup with him, like a great pitcher more comfortable preparing to throw than throwing. Something in him resists aggression. He tends to be indirect in his language, feinting, only suggestive. I used to think he was being careful not to tear the party apart, and endanger his own future.

But the Clintons are tearing the party apart. It will not be the same after this. It will not be the same after its most famous leader, and probable ultimate victor, treated a proud and accomplished black man who is a U.S. senator as if he were nothing, a mere impediment to their plans. And to do it in a way that signals, to his supporters, How dare you have the temerity, the ingratitude, after all we've done for you?

Watch for the GOP to attempt swoop in after the November elections and make profit of the wreckage.

* * *

As for the Republicans, their slow civil war continues. The primary race itself is winnowing down and clarifying: It is John McCain versus Mitt Romney, period. At the same time the conservative journalistic world is convulsed by recrimination and attack. They're throwing each other out of the party. Republicans have become very good at that. David Brooks damns Rush Limbaugh who knocks Bill Kristol who anathematizes whoever is to be anathematized this week. This Web site opposes that magazine.

 
The rage is due to many things. A world is ending, the old world of conservative meaning, and ascendancy. Loss leads to resentment. (See Clinton, Bill.) Different pundits back different candidates. Some opportunistically discover new virtues in candidates who appear at the moment to be winning. Some feel they cannot be fully frank about causes and effects.

More on that in a moment.

I saw Mr. McCain this Tuesday in New York, at a fund-raiser at which a breathless aide shared, "We just made a million dollars." What a difference a few wins makes. There were a hundred people outside chanting, "Mac is back!" and perhaps a thousand people inside, crammed into a three-chandelier ballroom at the St. Regis. When I attended a fund-raiser in October there was none of this; perhaps 200 came, and people were directed to crowd around the candidate as if to show he had support. Now you had to fight your way through a three-ring cluster. (When I attended a Giuliani fund-raiser this summer I saw something I wish I'd noted: The audience was big but wasn't listening. They were all on their BlackBerrys. That should have told me something about his support.)

Mr. McCain is in the middle of a shift. Previous strategy: I'm John McCain and you know me, we've traveled through history together. New strategy: I'm the old vet who fought on the front lines of the Reagan-era front, and I am about to take on the mantle of the essentials of conservatism?lower spending, smaller government, strong in the world. He is going to strike the great Reagan gong, not in a way that is new but in a way that is new for him.

In this he is repositioning himself back to where he started 30 years ago: as a Southwestern American conservative veteran of the armed forces. That is, inherently if not showily, anti-establishment. That is, I am the best of the past.

Mr. Romney, on the other hand, is running as I Am Today. I am new and fresh, in fact I'm tomorrow, I know all about the international flow of money and the flatness of the world, I know what China is, I can see you through the turbulence just as I saw Bain to success.

It will all come down to: Whom do Republicans believe? Mr. Romney in spite of his past and now-disavowed liberal positions? Or Mr. McCain in spite of his forays, the past 10 years, into a kind of establishment mindset that has suggested that The Establishment Knows Best?

Do conservatives take inspiration from Mr. Romney's newness? Or do they take comfort and security from Mr. McCain's rugged ability to endure, and to remind?

It is along those lines the big decision will be made.

* * *

On the pundit civil wars, Rush Limbaugh declared on the radio this week, "I'm here to tell you, if either of these two guys [Mr. McCain or Mike Huckabee] get the nomination, it's going to destroy the Republican Party. It's going to change it forever, be the end of it!"

This is absurd. George W. Bush destroyed the Republican Party, by which I mean he sundered it, broke its constituent pieces apart and set them against each other. He did this on spending, the size of government, war, the ability to prosecute war, immigration and other issues.

Were there other causes? Yes, of course. But there was an immediate and essential cause.

And this needs saying, because if you don't know what broke the elephant you can't put it together again. The party cannot re-find itself if it can't trace back the moment at which it became lost. It cannot heal an illness whose origin is kept obscure.

I believe that some of the ferocity of the pundit wars is due to a certain amount of self-censorship. It's not in human nature to enjoy self-censorship. The truth will out, like steam from a kettle. It hurts to say something you supported didn't work. I would know. But I would say of these men (why, in the continuing age of Bill Clinton, does the emoting come from the men?) who are fighting one another as they resist naming the cause for the fight: Sack up, get serious, define. That's the way to help.

Michael Tee

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Re: Noonan Article
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2008, 02:02:53 PM »
<<Bill Clinton, with his trembly, red-faced rage, makes John McCain look young. >>

Nothing will make John McCain look young.  He's not young.  He'll be the oldest President in history if he makes it.  And that'll be the least of the problems the U.S. would face if he makes it.

In general - - I agree with the comments on Hillary and Bill.  I don't like 'em.  But you don't have to like them to weigh the alternatives and conclude they're better than anyone (except Ron Paul) that the Republicans can put up against them. 

They won't stop the war.  Face it now, they won't stop it and McCain and the other Republicans (except for Ron Paul) won't stop it.  I think Ron Paul might try to stop it, but if he even showed the first signs of really stopping it, he'd be assassinated in a heartbeat by the same kind of "lone nut" gunman that seems to be the bane of any President who tries to buck the foreign policy establishment in any of their war efforts.  So you might as well forget about electing a candidate who's gonna stop the war.  All of the candidates probably know the unwritten rules of the game and none of them look to be suicidal.

Why Hillary and Bill?  or any Democrat?  Because of the Supreme Court.  The country is closer to fascism now than at any previous time in its recent history.  It can't afford another Alito or Scalia on the Court unless it's prepared to trash the Bill of Rights, as it may well be.  Pro-choice women would take the first hit, but the religious right would own science teaching, scientific experimentation, sex ed and reproductive rights in just a few short years.  Habeas corpus and right to a fair trial would go next.  So if Hillary is to be the candidate (and I hope like hell she is not) then hold your nose and vote for her.  She's the last chance you've got.

Rich

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Re: Noonan Article
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2008, 02:10:47 PM »
>> The country is closer to fascism now than at any previous time in its recent history.<<

Like most real facsists, you have no ideas what the word really means.

Michael Tee

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Re: Noonan Article
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2008, 02:29:54 PM »
<<Like most real facsists, you have no ideas what the word really means.>>

I know.  I'm so fucking ignorant it's almost embarrassing.  That's why I come to this group, to learn.  And just recently, I learned right here in this group that fascism is liberalism and liberalism is fascism.  Isn't that amazing?

So there!  I DO TOO know what fascism means:  it means LIBERALISM.   And freedom means slavery and war means peace and ignorance means . . .   uh, strength, right?   Ignorance means strength? 

I'm getting it, Rich!!  I'm really starting to get it.  And I want to thank you and all the other conservatives in this group for the gift of my education.

yellow_crane

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Re: Noonan Article
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2008, 02:45:36 PM »
<<Bill Clinton, with his trembly, red-faced rage, makes John McCain look young. >>

Nothing will make John McCain look young.  He's not young.  He'll be the oldest President in history if he makes it.  And that'll be the least of the problems the U.S. would face if he makes it.

In general - - I agree with the comments on Hillary and Bill.  I don't like 'em.  But you don't have to like them to weigh the alternatives and conclude they're better than anyone (except Ron Paul) that the Republicans can put up against them. 

They won't stop the war.  Face it now, they won't stop it and McCain and the other Republicans (except for Ron Paul) won't stop it.  I think Ron Paul might try to stop it, but if he even showed the first signs of really stopping it, he'd be assassinated in a heartbeat by the same kind of "lone nut" gunman that seems to be the bane of any President who tries to buck the foreign policy establishment in any of their war efforts.  So you might as well forget about electing a candidate who's gonna stop the war.  All of the candidates probably know the unwritten rules of the game and none of them look to be suicidal.

Why Hillary and Bill?  or any Democrat?  Because of the Supreme Court.  The country is closer to fascism now than at any previous time in its recent history.  It can't afford another Alito or Scalia on the Court unless it's prepared to trash the Bill of Rights, as it may well be.  Pro-choice women would take the first hit, but the religious right would own science teaching, scientific experimentation, sex ed and reproductive rights in just a few short years.  Habeas corpus and right to a fair trial would go next.  So if Hillary is to be the candidate (and I hope like hell she is not) then hold your nose and vote for her.  She's the last chance you've got.



I agree with your assessment of McCain.

Let me say that he is a hero, and also that, like many wounded so deeply, it is irresponsible to forego the serious and detrimental effects torture leaves in people in order to resign to deference to his stature as our appreciated hero.

There is a righteous rigidity that he portrays to good effect in his debates, speeches and interviews.  He makes a point of inserting this ridgid stance, addressing many different issues, every chance he gets.

Trouble with that is, when the button is in his hand, he has a rigid, practised propensity to react rather like Strangelove.

I fear the carpet-bombing approach to things that I see him quite capable of.

Bush has this, too, though for different reasons, but it doesn't matter--they won't let him have the button.



While I do not fear the

Michael Tee

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Re: Noonan Article
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2008, 03:46:20 PM »
<<Let me say that he [McCain] is a hero . . . >>

I beg to differ.  Far as I'm concerned, he's a fucking war criminal who has very likely dropped napalm on women and children in Viet Nam.

I would like to see one statement from him that he did not bomb villages, that he did not drop napalm.

In any decently-run world, he would have been put on trial for his life, most likely convicted and if so, swiftly executed.  Instead, he's running for President.  I feel like I'm watching some kind of really, really bad movie that just can't be turned off.  That's the world we live in.  War criminals can not only escape prosecution and punishment, they can actually pose as heroes and run for President.

More than anything else, THIS is what makes it almost impossible to believe in God.

The_Professor

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Re: Noonan Article
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2008, 06:59:18 PM »
Breaking Up Is Hard to Do
By PEGGY NOONAN
January 25, 2008; Page W14

We begin, as one always must now, again, with Bill Clinton. The past week he has traveled South Carolina, leaving discord in his wake. Barack Obama, that "fairytale," is low, sneaky. "He put out a hit job on me." The press is cruelly carrying Mr. Obama's counter-jabs. "You live for it."

In Dillon, S.C., according to the Associated Press, on Thursday Mr. Clinton "predicted that many voters will be guided mainly by gender and race loyalties" and suggested his wife may lose Saturday's primary because black voters will side with Mr. Obama. Who is raising race as an issue? Bill Clinton knows. It's the press, and Mr. Obama. "Shame on you," Mr. Clinton said to a CNN reporter. The same day the Web site believed to be the backdoor of the Clinton war room unveiled a new name for the senator from Illinois: "Sticky Fingers Obama."

Bill Clinton, with his trembly, red-faced rage, makes John McCain look young. His divisive and destructive daily comportment?this is a former president of the United States?is a civic embarrassment. It is also an education, and there is something heartening in this.

There are many serious and thoughtful liberals and Democrats who support Mr. Obama and John Edwards, and who are seeing Mr. Clinton in a new way and saying so. Here is William Greider in The Nation, the venerable left-liberal magazine. The Clintons are "high minded" on the surface but "smarmily duplicitous underneath, meanwhile jabbing hard at the groin area. They are a slippery pair and come as a package. The nation is at fair risk of getting them back in the White House for four years."

That, again, is from one of the premier liberal journals in the United States. It is exactly what conservatives have been saying for a decade. This may mark a certain coming together of the thoughtful on both sides. The Clintons, uniters at last.

Mr. Obama takes the pummeling and preaches the high road. It's all windup with him, like a great pitcher more comfortable preparing to throw than throwing. Something in him resists aggression. He tends to be indirect in his language, feinting, only suggestive. I used to think he was being careful not to tear the party apart, and endanger his own future.

But the Clintons are tearing the party apart. It will not be the same after this. It will not be the same after its most famous leader, and probable ultimate victor, treated a proud and accomplished black man who is a U.S. senator as if he were nothing, a mere impediment to their plans. And to do it in a way that signals, to his supporters, How dare you have the temerity, the ingratitude, after all we've done for you?

* * *

As for the Republicans, their slow civil war continues. The primary race itself is winnowing down and clarifying: It is John McCain versus Mitt Romney, period. At the same time the conservative journalistic world is convulsed by recrimination and attack. They're throwing each other out of the party. Republicans have become very good at that. David Brooks damns Rush Limbaugh who knocks Bill Kristol who anathematizes whoever is to be anathematized this week. This Web site opposes that magazine.

The rage is due to many things. A world is ending, the old world of conservative meaning, and ascendancy. Loss leads to resentment. (See Clinton, Bill.) Different pundits back different candidates. Some opportunistically discover new virtues in candidates who appear at the moment to be winning. Some feel they cannot be fully frank about causes and effects.

More on that in a moment.

I saw Mr. McCain this Tuesday in New York, at a fund-raiser at which a breathless aide shared, "We just made a million dollars." What a difference a few wins makes. There were a hundred people outside chanting, "Mac is back!" and perhaps a thousand people inside, crammed into a three-chandelier ballroom at the St. Regis. When I attended a fund-raiser in October there was none of this; perhaps 200 came, and people were directed to crowd around the candidate as if to show he had support. Now you had to fight your way through a three-ring cluster. (When I attended a Giuliani fund-raiser this summer I saw something I wish I'd noted: The audience was big but wasn't listening. They were all on their BlackBerrys. That should have told me something about his support.)

Mr. McCain is in the middle of a shift. Previous strategy: I'm John McCain and you know me, we've traveled through history together. New strategy: I'm the old vet who fought on the front lines of the Reagan-era front, and I am about to take on the mantle of the essentials of conservatism?lower spending, smaller government, strong in the world. He is going to strike the great Reagan gong, not in a way that is new but in a way that is new for him.

In this he is repositioning himself back to where he started 30 years ago: as a Southwestern American conservative veteran of the armed forces. That is, inherently if not showily, anti-establishment. That is, I am the best of the past.

Mr. Romney, on the other hand, is running as I Am Today. I am new and fresh, in fact I'm tomorrow, I know all about the international flow of money and the flatness of the world, I know what China is, I can see you through the turbulence just as I saw Bain to success.

It will all come down to: Whom do Republicans believe? Mr. Romney in spite of his past and now-disavowed liberal positions? Or Mr. McCain in spite of his forays, the past 10 years, into a kind of establishment mindset that has suggested that The Establishment Knows Best?

Do conservatives take inspiration from Mr. Romney's newness? Or do they take comfort and security from Mr. McCain's rugged ability to endure, and to remind?

It is along those lines the big decision will be made.

* * *

On the pundit civil wars, Rush Limbaugh declared on the radio this week, "I'm here to tell you, if either of these two guys [Mr. McCain or Mike Huckabee] get the nomination, it's going to destroy the Republican Party. It's going to change it forever, be the end of it!"

This is absurd. George W. Bush destroyed the Republican Party, by which I mean he sundered it, broke its constituent pieces apart and set them against each other. He did this on spending, the size of government, war, the ability to prosecute war, immigration and other issues.

Were there other causes? Yes, of course. But there was an immediate and essential cause.

And this needs saying, because if you don't know what broke the elephant you can't put it together again. The party cannot re-find itself if it can't trace back the moment at which it became lost. It cannot heal an illness whose origin is kept obscure.

I believe that some of the ferocity of the pundit wars is due to a certain amount of self-censorship. It's not in human nature to enjoy self-censorship. The truth will out, like steam from a kettle. It hurts to say something you supported didn't work. I would know. But I would say of these men (why, in the continuing age of Bill Clinton, does the emoting come from the men?) who are fighting one another as they resist naming the cause for the fight: Sack up, get serious, define. That's the way to help.

http://online.wsj.com/article/declarations.html
« Last Edit: January 26, 2008, 07:02:44 PM by The_Professor »
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BT

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Re: Noonan Article
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2008, 07:03:43 PM »

The_Professor

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Re: Noonan Article
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2008, 07:18:09 PM »
My apologies. Want me to delete the post?
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                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

BT

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Re: Noonan Article
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2008, 07:25:10 PM »
nope

The_Professor

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Re: Noonan Article
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2008, 07:26:12 PM »
Again, my apologies.
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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

modestyblase

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Re: Noonan Article
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2008, 07:27:51 PM »
Ha, which thread should I respond to?  :D

modestyblase

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Re: Noonan Article
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2008, 08:28:02 PM »
Basic Observations, all fairly random:
-Hasn't Bill Clinton's complexion always been ruddy?   ;)

-I disagree that Obama "resists aggression". He's landed his fair share of punches without prior jabs by Hilde, and responds to her jabs with a neatly wound roundhouse kick. Indirect? Sheesh what debates and speeches has the author being viewing?

Quote
But the Clintons are tearing the party apart. It will not be the same after this. It will not be the same after its most famous leader, and probable ultimate victor, treated a proud and accomplished black man who is a U.S. senator as if he were nothing, a mere impediment to their plans. And to do it in a way that signals, to his supporters, How dare you have the temerity, the ingratitude, after all we've done for you?

-Hilde shouldn't take a lone fall for the behaviours that she and Obama have *both* maintained, and the media needs to be ready to own up to its own share of the responsibility as well. Also, given 1. the seriousness the media and the DNC has given to two contenders who will, most likely, lose if nominated, 2. the manner in which the party has FAILED to accomplish or back up any of their convictions in regards to Dubya("Oh, we won't let his bill pass, nosiree" "I, Nancy Pelosi, do hereby state that I will STAND UP to the republicans" blahblah), 3. the fact that some of the great left-leaning political minds are staying out of the mess and instead offering advice to BLOOMBERG, among other things, then I say its fair to venture a guess that the party has NOT been the same for the last few years.
As for Bill being its "most famous leader"? What a discredit to JFK and LBJ, as far as post-1950 leaders are concerned. Way to go, Noonan. I didn't even live through JFK or LBJ and even I know better than to say that.

-As for the "slow civil war" that the author speaks of: it has been brewing for many years. I maintain and always will maintain intense disgust and dislike of Dubya, but he is not responsible for destroying the party; all he did was bring to a head the fallacies of what has been deemed "neoconservativism", which has been a faction but not the whole of the republican party whose "big government" aspects make liberals pale in comparison. Dubya should be applauded-now, maybe, conservatives can start to get back on track. I'd like to see what this "small government" is-having been born in '78, I've never witnessed it in my lifetime.

Quote
The party cannot re-find itself if it can't trace back the moment at which it became lost. It cannot heal an illness whose origin is kept obscure.
Well, scholars have traced it. Not only did the "new left" of the 60's give rise to neoconservativism, but it also splintered the democratic party apart.