Author Topic: gun rights, gay rights  (Read 1654 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
gun rights, gay rights
« on: March 19, 2008, 06:01:05 PM »
From a National Journal article, available at Reason Online, by Jonathan Rauch:

      Yesterday, unbeknownst to itself, the Supreme Court heard arguments in a gay-rights case. To most people, admittedly, District of Columbia v. Heller is a gun-rights case. In fact, it's the most important gun-rights case in decades, one that may cast a shadow for decades to come. But to gay Americans, and other minorities often targeted with violence, Heller is about civil rights, not shooting clubs.

Nine years ago, one of the first columns I wrote for National Journal told the story of Tom G. Palmer. One night some years ago in San Jose, he found himself confronting a gang of toughs, as many as 20 of them, intent on gay-bashing him. Taunted as a "faggot," threatened with death, Palmer (and a friend) ran for their lives, only to find the gang in hot pursuit. So Palmer stopped, reached into his backpack, and produced a gun. The gang backed off.

If no gun? "There's no question in my mind," Palmer told me in 1999, "that my friend and I would have been at least very seriously beaten, and maybe killed."

[...]

"Recognition of an individual right to keep and bear arms," says the brief, "is literally a matter of life or death" for gay Americans. The Heller plaintiffs are asking the Supreme Court to strike down Washington's gun law as unconstitutional. One of those plaintiffs, not coincidentally, is an openly gay man: Tom Palmer.

[...]

The self-defense test is good policy, because it aligns the Second Amendment with modern needs and sensibilities. It is good law, because it rescues the amendment from being a dead letter or an embarrassment.

And it is morally sound, because it honors in law what gay people know in our hearts: Being forced into victimhood is the ultimate denial not only of safety but of dignity.
      

The Second Amendment as protection of minority rights, discuss.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Christians4LessGvt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11151
    • View Profile
    • "The Religion Of Peace"
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: gun rights, gay rights
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2008, 06:18:00 PM »
UP i'm slow most of the time.  8)
i don't see a connection.
what is the point?
one would assume that gays protecting themselves from violent gay bashers
with a gun is maybe 1% of all gun owners that protect themselves from violence.
is the point that attaching the case to a gay bashing some how will help the case
in a politically correct sort of way?
i am not being a smart ass i just dont get the point?
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: gun rights, gay rights
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2008, 06:34:31 PM »

i don't see a connection.
what is the point?


I believe Rauch's point is that the Second Amendment as protection of self defense with firearms isn't just about keeping a burglar out of one's home. It can also be about about a minority individual protecting himself from a crime of assault. Gun rights as minority rights.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Christians4LessGvt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11151
    • View Profile
    • "The Religion Of Peace"
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: gun rights, gay rights
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2008, 06:49:31 PM »
i dont know I see that as a reach
but whatever people want to feel good about
i just think guns are there for law abiding citizens (gay or straight)
to protect themselves from criminals.
i guess you could say the same think about blacks if you do buy into that theory
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

fatman

  • Guest
Re: gun rights, gay rights
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2008, 08:00:56 PM »
I believe Rauch's point is that the Second Amendment as protection of self defense with firearms isn't just about keeping a burglar out of one's home. It can also be about about a minority individual protecting himself from a crime of assault. Gun rights as minority rights.

I've advocated that for quite awhile now.  My community needs to get over the fear and hysteria of guns, and start protecting themselves from the people that would otherwise prey on them and, as the article states, force them into victimhood.  Gun rights are common sense, other than hunting, collections, and sport shooting, most people own guns, and especially handguns, to protect themselves.  Mandating that they're trigger locked, and unloaded, at the home, is not only dangerous, it's criminally stupid.  There was a case a number of years ago (where's Domer when you need him) when the city of Los Angeles was sued by a citizen who was harmed in the LA riots.  The outcome of the decision was essentially that the city was not liable, because the police were not required to protect the public, or something very close to that effect.

I'm all for background checks to keep them out of the hands of felons and lunatics.  I'm all for responsible education regarding firearms and reasonable safety precautions to prevent poaching (there's no reason to have a loaded long rifle loaded in a car driving down I-5, in my mind).  I am not at all for a mandated, one size fits all approach.

As you know, I had an experience similar to the one the article mentions several years ago, only there were 5 of them, and not twenty.  My pistol saved me and a friend from a severe beating at the very least.  At the most, it saved our lives.  That pistol also enabled me to hold the perpetrators at bay until the police could arrive, where they were arrested, arraigned, tried, and sentenced.  Surprisingly, even in a very liberal city like Seattle, the police congratulated me for what I had done.  I am glad that I made the choice to pack the pistol that night.

Rich

  • Guest
Re: gun rights, gay rights
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2008, 09:12:28 PM »
I wonder how good an aim he would be with those limp wrists?

kidding ... joke ...

kimba1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: gun rights, gay rights
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2008, 09:16:48 PM »
interestingly s ofar the available data shows gays make excellent soldiers
in fact all the gays who are discharged from the military has never been for incompetence

can`t say that for straight people though


Rich

  • Guest
Re: gun rights, gay rights
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2008, 09:27:08 PM »
>>in fact all the gays who are discharged from the military has never been for incompetence<<

Source?

kimba1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: gun rights, gay rights
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2008, 09:46:43 PM »
I loooked up google trying to find any case that a gay soldier was discharged by his or her ability and have`nt found any
you would think the military would be exploite such a thing.
at best they can`t say gays are disqualified by policy not ability
I maybe wrong that no gay has been discharged due to incompetence.
but it definately is very rare.
even the anti-gay groups hasn`t been very good in pointing out gay inabilities

Rich

  • Guest
Re: gun rights, gay rights
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2008, 11:40:24 PM »
So you made it up.

Okay...

kimba1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: gun rights, gay rights
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2008, 11:44:00 PM »
oops forgot to add
probly a decade ago  on tv
there was maassive coverage about the issue of gay in the military and even the generals who oppose them serving had to admit their competency in service is not in doubt only that they are in violation of policy is thee only reason to expel them.
in fact a few years ago it was brought up that so many gays were on the officers track when they got discharged it had a impact.
saying they were a liability for being able to go this far.

not really made it up since there is no proof to counter my statement
I`ll use your memory
do your know of gays  unable to serve in the military outside of the policy that forbids them.
do you recall anything saying a gay person has not done well in the military?

Rich

  • Guest
Re: gun rights, gay rights
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2008, 11:46:10 PM »
Of course you made it up. You didn't even research it until after I asked you for a source.

kimba1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: gun rights, gay rights
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2008, 09:36:41 AM »
actually no
I`ve brought similair subjects up on this matter several times
pretaining ays qualifying in the military and the answer always is they don`t qualify due to policy but never due to ability.

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: gun rights, gay rights
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2008, 09:47:09 AM »
It would be easier to discharge a gay soldier for being incompetent.
Or you could discharge him/her for being overtly gay.

But it would almost certainly be one or the other, not both.

"He's out because he's incompetent. Besides that, he's gay." How does that sound?
What sort of incompetent officer would put out a discharge that read like that?

I am sure the ACLU would LOVE to see such a case, just to challenge the law.

There might be gay soldiers that were also incompetent, but if one such soldier did appear, there would only be a record of him/er being one or the other, certainly not both.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."