Author Topic: Decencies for Skeptics  (Read 979 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Religious Dick

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1153
  • Drunk, drunk, drunk in the gardens and the graves
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Decencies for Skeptics
« on: September 20, 2008, 04:48:24 PM »
City Journal Home.
Roger Scruton
Decencies for Skeptics
Is religion necessary to make a moral society? No; but reverence is.
Spring 1996

Behind the 1994 Republican congressional triumph was a hunger for moral absolutes. To the conservative conscience, the virtues praised by our liberal elites are the vices that undermine society. What the liberal sees as toleration, the conservative sees as complicity in wrongdoing; what the liberal sees as compassion for the weak and the needy, the conservative sees as the rewarding of irresponsible behavior. Illegitimacy, welfare dependency, divorce and marital breakdown?even the rise in drug abuse and crime?strike the conservative as exactly what you must expect when the stern morality of duty gives way to the sentimental morality of ?caring.? When every attempt to impose standards is greeted as a form of discrimination, when the only response to social failure is to multiply the rights and curtail the responsibilities of those whose actions are the cause of it, and when the greatest sin is the sin of disapproval, then is it surprising if society begins to fall apart? It is all very well for liberals to lament the social catastrophe of the inner cities. But if every attempt to tell the truth about it is condemned as racist, sexist, or just plain judgmental, how can the situation be changed?

There is a growing tendency among American conservatives to blame our present condition not merely on the liberals but on the secular and skeptical philosophy of the Enlightenment, from which modern liberalism descends. As they see it, the problem arises from two sources: first, the constant questioning of established beliefs and authorities, to the point where nothing makes sense?not even the question. Second, the emphasis on rights: as though the whole business of social life were a matter of claims against others, for which no payment need be made. The combination of these ideas leads to a kind of nihilism. If social life is a matter of rights, then there must be some authority whose business it is to enforce them. But if all authority is suspect, then so is this one. We are set upon a path that has anarchy as its only destination.

Many conservatives therefore suggest that we must repudiate the Enlightenment and reaffirm the thing against which the Enlightenment stood: organized religion. This is the burden of the new conservative journals, such as Crisis and First Things; and the message is echoed by older and once skeptical publications like Commentary and The Public Interest. It is not hard to sympathize. Religious belief fills our world with an authority that cannot be questioned and from which all our duties flow. No better device has ever occurred to the human race for the quelling of selfish appetites and the transmission of moral ideas.

Human reason, in which the Enlightenment rested all its hopes, has shown itself singularly embarrassed in its attempts to come up with a substitute. Kant attempted to derive all morality from the Categorical Imperative, which tells me to act only on that maxim that I can will as a universal law. But Kant?s magnificent system raises moral duty to such a height of abstraction that it seems to break free from the world of real temptations and float serenely in the intellectual stratosphere. Even if it is true that I must obey the Categorical Imperative, this does not provide me with the daily bread of moral feeling as I pick my way through a crowd of selfish strangers. The Kantian morality is too cool, too reasonable, too

detached from the contending emotions over which it claims to legislate. There may indeed be those who live by it, but they are not the people who are likely to cause the social disorder of which conservatives complain. For the mass of mankind, evil appetites must be blocked by some countervailing fear. And whence comes this fear, if not from a religion?

Yet there is something despondent in the search for a religious solution to the problems of secular society. All too often, the search is conducted in a spirit of despair by people who are as infected by the surrounding nihilism as those whose behavior they wish to rectify. Their message is simple: ?God is dead?but don?t spread it around.? Such words can be whispered among friends but not broadcast to the multitude. It is true that Disraeli, like many nineteenth-century conservatives, combined private skepticism with public endorsement of the established church. But he lived at a time when religion had such vitality that public opinion was still shocked by those, like Nietzsche, who protested against its power. Since that time, too many people have heard of the death of God, and too many people have built an empire of appetite upon this unsubstantiated rumor. The genie of skepticism can?t be re-imprisoned in its bottle.

Besides, as all conservatives know, the religious instinct is too vast and deep a force to be conjured from the depths to which it has retreated without at the same time jeopardizing a host of precious achievements?religious freedom itself being one of them. Those who call for a religious revival are not, as a rule, galvanized by images of the Crusades, the Inquisition, or the burning of heretics. The only religious revival reshaping modern society?Islamic fundamentalism?has about as much appeal for a Western conservative as a visit from Ghengis Khan. In fact, the religion that is esteemed by the conservative conscience is precisely a religion that has lost its vital force and become something quieter, more routinized, less all-embracing in its demands than is typical of a newfound faith. It is a religion typified by Christianity and Judaism in their latter days, tempered by the necessary toleration of urban life and nourished by the ordinary decencies of a law-abiding community.

Like many English conservatives, I look back with nostalgia to the Christian heritage passed on to me through church and school. The religion that I absorbed made little distinction between the law of God and the law of England. It referred to Christ?s passion only in order to remind me that the stiff upper lip has an irreproachable precedent. It filled my thoughts with gospel stories and parables, the standard interpretation of which coincided with the Boy Scout?s code of honor. It taught me that faith was a useful acquisition, but not one to show off about or with which to embarrass your neighbors. Religion is fine in its place but should not be imposed on others. Besides, faith is honest only when freely chosen, and for an Englishman honesty is the best policy.

It was 2,000 years of history that had reduced Christianity to this gentle adjunct of the legal order?a history in which the Enlightenment had played its own special part. Insensibly, though not without public convulsions, religion had retreated to the private sphere. Like the English monarchy, it had become a family affair, to be referred to in public only in vague and disclaiming terms?like one?s parents. It was esteemed as a mark of respectability rather than an expression of faith. You felt safe with other Christians, not because you stood together in the light of God?s radiance (though you were prepared to admit that some such embarrassing thing might be true), but because Christians had adopted a common set of guidelines, whose ruling principle was decency. Jews, too, were okay?at least, you could do business with them, though sometimes with an uneasy conscience about the past. Like English Christianity, the Jewish religion seemed to be a family matter and to translate into the same standards of public behavior. A Judeo-Christian society was one in which the good conduct of others could be taken for granted, in which no one meddled in your private life unless by invitation, and in which those who did not play the game were dealt with discreetly but firmly by the Invisible Headmaster.

The political philosophy of the Enlightenment made a great show of its ancient origins. For thinkers like Montesquieu and Rousseau, as for Machiavelli, the task was to rediscover the Roman virtues and to rescue society from the grip of the Christian Church. But this very project is a Christian one. The medievals also had engaged in it, attempting to encapsulate in a civil code the injunction once expressed by Christ, that we should render unto God what is God?s, but unto Caesar what is Caesar?s. Indeed, Christianity is an exception among religions, in imposing a religious duty to construct a civil order in which religion plays no part: an order in which the conscience is free, and in which public safety is entrusted to an impartial and secular law.

The inevitable result of this is that religion, lacking the loud public endorsement of its youth, gradually dwindles. And then, too late, we come to see that, after all, the purely secular state is unworkable; that religion, chased into the private sphere, curls up and dies; and that without religion, law and morality lose their authority.

How should we react to this potentially tragic turn of events? The conservative invocation of religion is itself an Enlightenment reaction. For what is invoked is not religion, in all its raw and all-embracing absoluteness, but the image of religion, held in the aspic of a law-governed state. In the great years of Western expansion, religion was a civilizing influence for the very reason that it had thrown in its lot with civilization and recognized the secular rule of law as one of its own achievements. This was its strength, and also its weakness. Civilized man had built a house that needed no blazing fire to heat it.

But it is hard to dampen down the flames of faith and still to keep them burning. Rather than shivering in the cold, modern man has preferred to set the house on fire and dance for a moment in the final conflagration. This explains, I believe, the great tragedy that ensued when Europe woke up to its loss of faith. For modern life?the life among strangers?is a lonely affair and is only with difficulty sustainable in the absence of faith. In such conditions those who offer substitutes, in which the denial of God replaces the belief in him, gain a hearing that bears no relation to the reasonableness of their message. Look back to the two great crimes of our century?nazism and communism?and you will see what happens when a substitute religion bursts upon the world, untempered by the belief in God?s judgment. Never before has such destruction, or such contempt for human life, visited our planet.

The Enlightenment cast doubt over every doctrine of the Church, and modern science has continued the work of disenchantment. Christianity has been especially vulnerable in this confrontation, on account of its metaphysical ambition. Most religions stifle our metaphysical questions with myths?such as the wonderful story of man?s creation and fall that opens the Hebrew Bible. Christianity responds with the opening words of Saint John: in the beginning was the word, the Logos, the ultimate explanation that closes all inquiry and blows all myths away. The new religion was the offspring of Jewish monotheism and Greek philosophy. It offered to explain the world, its creator, the course of history and man?s final end, in terms of an all-embracing theology. It was bound to find itself, in time, competing with science, and has lost out in the contest.

But the religious attitude can exist in the absence of doctrinal support, and while making only the vaguest of metaphysical claims. Jewish writers like Leon Kass have pointed out that their traditional religion is encapsulated more by the exact performance of sacred ritual than by the conscious endorsement of doctrine. And there are other and more telling examples. Traditional Chinese religion lays great stress on rituals, from the exact performance of which our ancestors are supposed to benefit. But it makes few if any doctrinal claims and has virtually no theology. Its fundamental conception is not faith or doctrine but ?propriety??li, the written character for which is made up of two separate signs, one signifying ?spiritual being? and the other ?a sacrificial vessel.? Ancient Chinese contained no word for religion, but spoke instead of ?teachings,? of which there were three: Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism, none of which offers any clear belief in a transcendental deity. Rather than venturing into the realm of theology, the Chinese were content with an unassuming piety, in which respect for ancestors was the core idea.

The word ?piety? comes to us from the Romans, who, by recognizing a changing multitude of gods, implied that it was of no great importance whether you actually believed in them. In those days you could even become a god, by means as devious as those employed to obtain an earthly title. It is hard to believe that the average Roman took the gods very seriously when his emperor could arbitrarily declare himself to be one of them. But this did not remove the respect for sacred things on which, to the Roman mind, civil order depended. It was still necessary to invoke the lares et penates (the household deities), to treat old age with reverence and new life with awe. It was still necessary to consecrate the most important happenings?birth, marriage, death, and membership in a community?to something higher than one?s own desire. Social obligations arose not from contracts only but from solemn vows, and a kind of eternal jurisdiction was implied in this?as in the fate of ?pious Aeneas,? as he departed forever from the flames of Troy. Virgil?s hero had vowed to perpetuate his race and culture by founding the city of Rome; and his piety consists in an inability to forget this vow, which follows him on his travels, canceling every wish that wars with it.

If I were to venture a definition of this Roman piety, I should describe it as the attitude that leads the present generation to defer to the last one and to assume responsibility for the next. The true religious attitude is revealed less in the search for beliefs and doctrines than in the day-to-day routine of duty, in which ritual and ceremony play a real but undemanding part. It is revealed in the habit of placing a frame around the important happenings, of lifting them above themselves and discovering the hidden endorsement of vanished generations, and the hidden promise of those to come.

The Roman example is relevant for us, who are surrounded by the same multiplicity of idols and subject to the same disbelief in their divinity. It is still possible for us, in modern conditions, to cultivate a habit of piety, while being skeptical toward religious doctrine. The change in education that we should regret more than any other is not the destruction of religious instruction, school prayers, and hymn singing?even though this destruction was a singular triumph of short-sighted liberal dogmatism. We should most of all regret the virtual abolition of classical languages and literature. For it is Horace, Virgil, Cicero, and Homer who taught our ancestors what piety means and what it still might mean for those who live without the clear pronouncements of a common faith.

As the Chinese and the Romans acknowledged, piety involves respect for the dead. The pious person is the one who acknowledges the generations that have gone before, who does not trample on their remains or tear down their achievements. It is

this respect for the dead that prompts the awe with which we enter sacred places or celebrate sacred times. It is manifest in the small things?in custom and ceremony. It is also manifest in the large things: in the sense that certain actions are not to be done, not to be thought about, not to be spoken of, without spiritual danger. We could never understand the prohibition of obscenity and indecency, for example, if we think of them merely in liberal terms?as exercises of the right to free speech, to be praised or condemned according to the good or bad effects on those exposed to them. The goal of pornography is to de-sacralize the sexual act, to detach it from love and commitment, and to put it on sale as a commodity. The continuity of human society can no longer be guaranteed when people see sex in this way. The prohibition arises from the fact that we witness in pornography a threat to the deepest interest of other generations. And such a threat is what we mean, or ought to mean, by sacrilege. It is piety that causes us to recoil when, in the loathsome films of Quentin Tarantino, a person is shot in the face while the worthless culprits make idle conversation. For the purpose of such an image is to annihilate the face, to desecrate that which must always stand apart from the order of matter, if we are to know its meaning.

The principal damage done by liberalism has not been intellectual?for the loss of religious belief could hardly be avoided, once the habit of inquiry had grown in us. The principal damage has come from the relentless scoffing at ordinary prohibitions and decencies, and the shrill advocacy of ?alternatives? that ordinary people are unable in their hearts to recognize. The moral legacy of liberalism is typified by the Satanism of the Parisian Left Bank, by the play-group egoism of the Californian campus, and by the patrician complacency of the New York Review of Books. This moral legacy could be discarded tomorrow, were there not such a vested interest in preserving it. Liberal sarcasm is the ideology of a ruling class?the class of ?advisors,? who inhabit the universities, the government commissions, and the state bureaucracies, and whose control over the channels of communication ensures that their superfluousness will never be publicly acknowledged.

It would be a great mistake to suppose that religious belief provides the only antidote to this ideology. Whatever the state of their religious convictions, people are unconsciously aware that the customs of society embody more wisdom than could emerge in a single generation. They may struggle against this awareness, as liberals do. But it is far more reasonable, far more congenial, to acquiesce in it. The decencies and hesitations that once surrounded sex, for instance, are not the arbitrary injunctions of a departed ruling class. They are the voice of the collective dead, alerting us to a duty that we could never hope to understand through our own experience alone, and the questioning of which is the height of folly. Modern America has questioned this duty and is now paying a heavy price for its presumption. Even if the genie is out of the bottle and nobody has any clear idea how it might be coaxed back in, it is surely only a naive faith in human ingenuity that would lead anyone to think that sexual liberation has been anything but a disaster.

Those who hope to safeguard ?natural piety? through a return to religious faith jeopardize the thing they treasure. For they make piety as irrational as the beliefs to which they attach it. But piety is not irrational at all. It is the voice that tells us that the goods of society are inherited and could never be rediscovered by the generation that foolishly rejects them. The true conservative should be prepared to acknowledge that his audience lives in modern times. Religious belief is a bonus that we cannot assume. But piety is a social necessity; it speaks of duties that lie above and beyond our desires and contracts. If people cease to recognize such duties, society will crumble into ?the dust and powder of individuality,? as Burke described it.

Conservatives should therefore be gentle with their unbelieving colleagues. It may be right to hope for a religious revival, but not to work for it. The conservative task in the modern world is to scoff at the scoffers, to ridicule the prejudice against all that Burke promised under the rubric of ?prejudice,? and to support the institutions in which piety is born. What, in modern life, carries the spirit of history? To what school or club or college should our children belong, in order to acquire the deep-down awareness that the world was not born with them, and that their happiness depends upon the approval of people who are no longer living?

Conservatives in America are beginning to confront these questions, whether or not they conceive them in religious terms. They are beginning to recognize the damage done to their country by the liberal prejudice in favor of the living and their ?rights.? They know that crime, drugs, illegitimacy, and divorce all stem from a single cause: the inability to recognize obligations that are stronger than desire.

But they also know that the old religions will not take an effective stand against these things. Rather than retreating from the

Enlightenment, therefore, conservatives should confront liberal ideas on their own ground. The real question is not ?How do you justify authority?? but ?How do you justify rights?? Maybe there are no rights; and maybe the whole idea of equality is an illusion. If that is so, then the liberal assumption of the moral and intellectual high ground is spurious. We are faced with a confrontation not between enlightenment and prejudice but between two kinds of prejudice. The conservative policy in this encounter should be to support the prejudice of ordinary people. Liberals will be contemptuous of such a policy, since the prejudices of enlightened people never seem like prejudice to those who entertain them. But the contempt of liberals is something that conservatives must learn to endure.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/6_2_a1.html
I speak of civil, social man under law, and no other.
-Sir Edmund Burke

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Decencies for Skeptics
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2008, 05:34:37 PM »
Quote from: Roger Scruton

There is a growing tendency among American conservatives to blame our present condition not merely on the liberals but on the secular and skeptical philosophy of the Enlightenment, from which modern liberalism descends. As they see it, the problem arises from two sources: first, the constant questioning of established beliefs and authorities, to the point where nothing makes sense--not even the question. Second, the emphasis on rights: as though the whole business of social life were a matter of claims against others, for which no payment need be made. The combination of these ideas leads to a kind of nihilism. If social life is a matter of rights, then there must be some authority whose business it is to enforce them. But if all authority is suspect, then so is this one. We are set upon a path that has anarchy as its only destination.


There is no reason to confuse anarchy with nihilism. However, Scruton has clearly made the same mistake that many people make, with the implicit assumption that anarchy means chaos and and social entropy. And upon this erroneous foundation Scruton attacks basic conservative notions of the individual. He speaks of "the inability to recognize obligations that are stronger than desire." Clearly he is advocating not reason and thought but submission to "the voice of the collective dead, alerting us to a duty that we could never hope to understand through our own experience alone, and the questioning of which is the height of folly." How this allows for skepticism, I cannot see. It certainly does not allow for a Jew in the Roman Empire to claim to be the Messiah and question the authority of the Pharisees and Sadducees. And while Scruton complains about Nazism and Communism, he advocates a collectivist thinking that seems not at all far from the collectivist notions of Nazism and Communism.

Scruton says, "Whatever the state of their religious convictions, people are unconsciously aware that the customs of society embody more wisdom than could emerge in a single generation. They may struggle against this awareness, as liberals do." Speaking as someone who does not agree with Scruton but is also not a modern American liberal, I have to say I think he has this backwards. People are unconsciously aware that self exists. The struggle then is by people like Scruton to deny the reality of the existence of self.

All in all, Scruton seems to be wrong from beginning to end.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Religious Dick

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1153
  • Drunk, drunk, drunk in the gardens and the graves
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Decencies for Skeptics
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2008, 06:29:57 PM »

There is no reason to confuse anarchy with nihilism. However, Scruton has clearly made the same mistake that many people make, with the implicit assumption that anarchy means chaos and and social entropy.

Show me a functioning anarchy.

And upon this erroneous foundation Scruton attacks basic conservative notions of the individual. He speaks of "the inability to recognize obligations that are stronger than desire." Clearly he is advocating not reason and thought but submission to "the voice of the collective dead, alerting us to a duty that we could never hope to understand through our own experience alone, and the questioning of which is the height of folly." How this allows for skepticism, I cannot see.

No, he's not advocating reason. Why should he? Reason is a process from which conclusions are derived from facts. In absence of a complete set of facts, or erroneous facts, what does the process produce?

That would seem to me to be the whole point of conservatism - if you don't know how it works, and you don't know how to put it back together again if you break it, then don't fuck with it.

Let me put it this way - nobody knows the secret of creating a successful civilization. No ideologue, no communist, no socialist, no libertarian, no Jacobin has ever created one. Hence, when a relatively stable one evolves, the conservative advocates preservation of it. Given that there are more failed societies than successful ones, that would seem to be a reasonable course. If you break it, you don't have the knowledge to recreate it, and reason will not help you.

Reason may help you cultivate a rose garden. As of yet, it hasn't shown us how to create a rose from scratch.

It certainly does not allow for a Jew in the Roman Empire to claim to be the Messiah and question the authority of the Pharisees and Sadducees. And while Scruton complains about Nazism and Communism, he advocates a collectivist thinking that seems not at all far from the collectivist notions of Nazism and Communism.

Or the collectivist notions of Christianity. Or nationalism, or community, or family. Are those equally illegitimate?

You might note that the emergence of Jesus, and Lenin, and Hitler, were all random, unpredictable events. But not all of them produced results of equal value.

No, he doesn't allow for it. Given that despots emerge a lot more frequently than Messiahs, that's probably a very good idea.

Scruton says, "Whatever the state of their religious convictions, people are unconsciously aware that the customs of society embody more wisdom than could emerge in a single generation. They may struggle against this awareness, as liberals do." Speaking as someone who does not agree with Scruton but is also not a modern American liberal, I have to say I think he has this backwards. People are unconsciously aware that self exists. The struggle then is by people like Scruton to deny the reality of the existence of self.

Where does he deny that? He simply points out that there are obligations other than those to yourself. Anyone who's ever been part of a family ought to recognize that.

All in all, Scruton seems to be wrong from beginning to end.[/color]

I'd say Scruton has the authority of most of history behind him. On what authority are you declaring him wrong?
I speak of civil, social man under law, and no other.
-Sir Edmund Burke

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Decencies for Skeptics
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2008, 11:11:21 PM »

Show me a functioning anarchy.


Functioning according to whom? And does there have to be one for anarchy not to mean chaos and social entropy? Anarchy is a lack of government, not a lack of order.


No, he's not advocating reason.


I'm glad you admit that.


Why should he? Reason is a process from which conclusions are derived from facts. In absence of a complete set of facts, or erroneous facts, what does the process produce?


Articles like Scruton wrote.


That would seem to me to be the whole point of conservatism - if you don't know how it works, and you don't know how to put it back together again if you break it, then don't fuck with it.

Let me put it this way - nobody knows the secret of creating a successful civilization. No ideologue, no communist, no socialist, no libertarian, no Jacobin has ever created one. Hence, when a relatively stable one evolves, the conservative advocates preservation of it. Given that there are more failed societies than successful ones, that would seem to be a reasonable course. If you break it, you don't have the knowledge to recreate it, and reason will not help you.


So political conservatism is best served by abhorring change and avoiding reason?


Reason may help you cultivate a rose garden. As of yet, it hasn't shown us how to create a rose from scratch.


False analogy. Reason is not science. Science uses reason, but they are not the same. And that no one has created from scratch a stable society either does not mean attempts to improve society are necessarily and/or inherently sinful, wrong, unreasonable or inadvisable. But then I'm using reason, and I'm sure Scruton would therefore disagree.


Quote
It certainly does not allow for a Jew in the Roman Empire to claim to be the Messiah and question the authority of the Pharisees and Sadducees. And while Scruton complains about Nazism and Communism, he advocates a collectivist thinking that seems not at all far from the collectivist notions of Nazism and Communism.

Or the collectivist notions of Christianity. Or nationalism, or community, or family. Are those equally illegitimate?

You might note that the emergence of Jesus, and Lenin, and Hitler, were all random, unpredictable events. But not all of them produced results of equal value.

No, he doesn't allow for it. Given that despots emerge a lot more frequently than Messiahs, that's probably a very good idea.


So the best thing for society is to side with the Pharisees and oppose the teachings of Jesus? The best thing for society is to oppose the civil rights movement or the abolitionists because they want to change society? Perhaps we should not challenge anti-Semitism in the 1930s and 40s because we don't want to rock the boat. No, your argument falls flat. It doesn't seem like a good idea at all.

As for collectivist notions of nationalism, yeah I'm not in favor of nationalist collectivism either. Maybe you have no affinity for the liberty to criticize society and the government, but I do. Of course, Scruton (and you apparently) seemed perfectly at ease criticizing society. I have yet to see an argument put forth as to why criticizing society is okay for him but not for those who disagree with him. Oh wait... that would require reasoning.

Maybe your family functioned as a collective, mine did not.

And as for collectivist notions of Christianity, what collectivist notions of Christianity? The responsibility in Christianity is on the individual to love God and love his neighbor. "Love your neighbor as yourself" contains implicitly the notion of loving oneself. And I notice that commandment was not "Love your neighbor more than yourself." It was not "Consider yourself less than the whole of society." It was "Love your neighbor as yourself." At no point did Jesus advocate forcing or enticing other people to become part of a collective. He contradicted the notion that one is good merely by following the rules laid down by others, as the Pharisees--and apparently Scruton--would have had it. He called them white-washed tombs for their beliefs. Jesus advocated that the responsibility to do good, to help others, to follow His commandments rested not with the collective but with the individual.



Where does he deny [the reality of the existence of self]? He simply points out that there are obligations other than those to yourself. Anyone who's ever been part of a family ought to recognize that.


No, that is not his argument. He plainly argues against reason, as you clearly indicated yourself, and argues, as I pointed out, for submission to "the voice of the collective dead, alerting us to a duty that we could never hope to understand through our own experience alone, and the questioning of which is the height of folly." He also says, "If people cease to recognize such duties, society will crumble into 'the dust and powder of individuality,' as Burke described it." He argues even against the notion of rights because they supposedly separate people into individuals. His denial of self is not direct, but it is an underlying premise of his arguments.


I'd say Scruton has the authority of most of history behind him. On what authority are you declaring him wrong?


With Mr. Scruton's ideas, there is no civil rights movement, no end to forced slavery, no War for Independence in the 1770s by the British colonies in the New World, no branching off of Jews to follow Jesus of Nazareth, movement of society beyond competing with animals in an undeveloped world with no technology, because questioning, challenging, changing that which is and has come before is "is the height of folly." So again I say, Scruton seems to be wrong from beginning to end. The authority of history is on my side, not Scruton's.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2008, 08:34:20 AM by Universe Prince »
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Decencies for Skeptics
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2008, 11:30:49 PM »


   The wisdom of the dead is ours to examine collected at the cost of all of their lifetimes , we shouldn't treat it as cheap , after all we are bound to join them after a while and our recorded thoughts will bear no more weight at that point than theirs.

   Honestly though is he saying that Conservatism is stasis ?

    I certaily would not have defined it so , more like makeing changes when neded and with aforethought , not considering change to be a virtue of itself.

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Decencies for Skeptics
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2008, 11:06:59 PM »

The wisdom of the dead is ours to examine collected at the cost of all of their lifetimes , we shouldn't treat it as cheap , after all we are bound to join them after a while and our recorded thoughts will bear no more weight at that point than theirs.


I certainly do not mean to say that there is nothing to be gained from those who have gone before us. Of course there are many things we can learn from the dead. Seems to me, however, that one very important thing we should learn from those who came before is that respecting those who came before us does not mean we should abandon reason and allow ourselves to be unquestioningly guided by the traditions and status quo of society at any time. To be so guided is to abandon learning, compassion and justice. I feel quite confident that to give up such things is not what we should learn from history or the dead.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2008, 11:08:57 PM by Universe Prince »
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Religious Dick

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1153
  • Drunk, drunk, drunk in the gardens and the graves
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Decencies for Skeptics
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2008, 09:17:29 AM »
Functioning according to whom? And does there have to be one for anarchy not to mean chaos and social entropy? Anarchy is a lack of government, not a lack of order.

Ok, I'll be happy to lower the bar.

Show me an anarchy in existence anywhere in any condition.


No, he's not advocating reason.


I'm glad you admit that.

Why shouldn't I? Now, maybe you'll get around to admitting that reason, absent valid and complete inputs, is a rather useless tool. As they say in the computer biz, garbage in, garbage out. If your premises are incomplete or incorrect, your reasoning isn't going to buy you much.


Why should he? Reason is a process from which conclusions are derived from facts. In absence of a complete set of facts, or erroneous facts, what does the process produce?


Articles like Scruton wrote.

Gah! I've been slapped with the Hankie of Reason! Oh, the pain! The pain!

So political conservatism is best served by abhorring change and avoiding reason?

Not quite - political conservatism is best served by eschewing drastic change based on faulty reasoning based on an incomplete understanding of the facts.

So the best thing for society is to side with the Pharisees and oppose the teachings of Jesus?

From whose perspective? Did not the teachings of Jesus eventually result in destruction of the society of the Pharisees?

And how do you figure Scruton is advocating collectivism in the same sense of Communism or Fascism? Did he say a single word about economics or property? Did he advocate nationalizing industry? No, he did not. He is speaking merely of civil obligations owed to community one is a member of. By your definition, any group of individuals with any common interests is collectivism.


Where does he deny [the reality of the existence of self]? He simply points out that there are obligations other than those to yourself. Anyone who's ever been part of a family ought to recognize that.


No, that is not his argument. He plainly argues against reason, as you clearly indicated yourself, and argues, as I pointed out, for submission to "the voice of the collective dead, alerting us to a duty that we could never hope to understand through our own experience alone, and the questioning of which is the height of folly." He also says, "If people cease to recognize such duties, society will crumble into 'the dust and powder of individuality,' as Burke described it." He argues even against the notion of rights because they supposedly separate people into individuals. His denial of self is not direct, but it is an underlying premise of his arguments.


Restraint of selfishness and denial of self are hardly the same thing. And your rights are meaningless absent an authority capable of enforcing them. So, rather obviously, if you value your rights, your first obligation is to protecting the institutions and conventions that make that authority possible.


I'd say Scruton has the authority of most of history behind him. On what authority are you declaring him wrong?


With Mr. Scruton's ideas, there is no civil rights movement, no end to forced slavery, no War for Independence in the 1770s by the British colonies in the New World, no branching off of Jews to follow Jesus of Nazareth, movement of society beyond competing with animals in an undeveloped world with no technology, because questioning, challenging, changing that which is and has come before is "is the height of folly." So again I say, Scruton seems to be wrong from beginning to end. The authority of history is on my side, not Scruton's.


First, I don't recollect that Scruton raised any objection to the advancement of technology. Second, his entire essay was an secular argument for conservatism. Third, you're assuming all those developments you listed were unqualified improvements. Based on what?
I speak of civil, social man under law, and no other.
-Sir Edmund Burke

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Decencies for Skeptics
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2008, 06:04:06 PM »

Ok, I'll be happy to lower the bar.


You haven't established that there is a bar or where it was in the first place, so claiming to lower it is bit dishonest.


Now, maybe you'll get around to admitting that reason, absent valid and complete inputs, is a rather useless tool. As they say in the computer biz, garbage in, garbage out. If your premises are incomplete or incorrect, your reasoning isn't going to buy you much.


Reason is what allows for the assessment of inputs, premises, facts and such. To advocate against reason is to advocate against people doing the kind of thinking that allows them to assess and understand whether or not they need further information.


Gah! I've been slapped with the Hankie of Reason! Oh, the pain! The pain!


Hankie of Reason? Are you 12?


Not quite - political conservatism is best served by eschewing drastic change based on faulty reasoning based on an incomplete understanding of the facts.


That sounds nice, but then the questions arise. Faulty reasoning according to whom? How complete must understanding be before action is taken? And how can any of these be determined if we have abandoned reason?


Quote
So the best thing for society is to side with the Pharisees and oppose the teachings of Jesus?

From whose perspective? Did not the teachings of Jesus eventually result in destruction of the society of the Pharisees?


No, not really. But you're avoiding the question. I did not ask if the best thing for the political and social power of the Pharisees was to oppose the teachings of Jesus. I asked if the best thing for society is to side with the Pharisees and oppose the teachings of Jesus.


And how do you figure Scruton is advocating collectivism in the same sense of Communism or Fascism? Did he say a single word about economics or property? Did he advocate nationalizing industry? No, he did not. He is speaking merely of civil obligations owed to community one is a member of.


As if that somehow does not have implications for economics or property or politics. Sheesh. Scruton is speaking of not questioning society as it has been established by others. How is that not like the collectivism of Nazism and Communism?


By your definition, any group of individuals with any common interests is collectivism.


No, but thank you for playing. I did not say a word about people with common interests. The criticism is not of people working together. The criticism is of the assertion that people should not question society and traditions of society in any way that might result in a change of the society.


Restraint of selfishness and denial of self are hardly the same thing.


Indeed. Scruton is clearly arguing from a position that self is bad and the collective whole is good. He does not argue that the individual restrain selfish impulses. He argues that recognition of self apart from the duties imposed by society and the "collective dead" is folly.


And your rights are meaningless absent an authority capable of enforcing them.


Most if not all of my rights do not require enforcement. All they require is non-interference. The protection of liberty can require the ability to defend that liberty, but defense does not necessarily require an outside authority. If someone arrives on my property with intent to harm and/or steal, my defense of my property does not require any outside authority, only my volition to act.


So, rather obviously, if you value your rights, your first obligation is to protecting the institutions and conventions that make that authority possible.


If I value my rights as an individual, my first obligation is to recognize that the individual exists as an individual, not merely a cog of society. And among my obligations is also to recognize when institutions such as government are not protecting those rights as they should and to do something to change that. This all requires reason and the kind of questioning that you and Scruton apparently oppose, at least in others.


Quote
With Mr. Scruton's ideas, there is no civil rights movement, no end to forced slavery, no War for Independence in the 1770s by the British colonies in the New World, no branching off of Jews to follow Jesus of Nazareth, movement of society beyond competing with animals in an undeveloped world with no technology, because questioning, challenging, changing that which is and has come before is "is the height of folly." So again I say, Scruton seems to be wrong from beginning to end. The authority of history is on my side, not Scruton's.

First, I don't recollect that Scruton raised any objection to the advancement of technology. Second, his entire essay was an secular argument for conservatism. Third, you're assuming all those developments you listed were unqualified improvements. Based on what?


I'm not assuming those developments were unqualified improvements. I am acknowledging them as changes to society that were good. Based on what do I say the end of forced slavery was good? Well, for starters it was morally wrong. Ending an institutionalized moral wrong is a good thing. Based on what authority do I say that movement of society beyond cavemen competing with animals in an undeveloped world was good? I should say the fact that most folks no longer have to worry about being eaten or having their children eaten by wild animals is a definite benefit to society. But by all means, if you want to argue that the end of forced slavery was somehow a change for the worse, go right ahead. If you want to argue that society would be better off without having developed beyond cavemen competing with animals, don't let me stop you.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--