Can we dispense with the bull?

[sirs]

If you wish to apply emergent endeavors, such as fires or home invasion, that's a bit of apples to oranges

Is it really? Health Care situations can certainly be emergent. And usually the best trauma centers are publicly funded.

Health care situations CAN be emergent.  I don't think I've stated anything different.  I don't think we're discussing the same issue, Bt.  Have we transitioned from providing health care (what I do) to providing emergent medical intervention?

...focus my finite resources to provide a better quality of care to those who are actually paying for the services.

In the current insurance driven situation and the proposed govt funded situation the patient is not really the customer.

The difference of course in is who's paying.  Insurance driven is 1st person member driven.  Government funded is third person, unattached tax payer driven.  And as Sowell was so expert in his articulating, the more we take decisions away from the person/patient, the less inclined one is at making good healthcare decisions.  A viscious cycle is perpetuated

[Plane]

     I am an electrician who works for the government , most of the time , when I am elegable for a promotion , the decision is made by someone who is not an electrician , who canot really tell if I am doing a good job or a snow job.


      If this were the situation for therapists , they would have a good reason to avoid giveing service in difficu lt cases it would pay better to have good paper than good results.

[BT]

The difference of course in is who's paying.

No the difference apparently is who is being paid the premiums.

So why would corporate dollars be more in your self interest than govt dollars?

[BT]

I am an electrician who works for the government , most of the time , when I am elegable for a promotion , the decision is made by someone who is not an electrician , who canot really tell if I am doing a good job or a snow job.

Does your direct supervisor have knowledge of electronics?
Do they not recommend you for advancement?

[sirs]

The difference of course in is who's paying.

No the difference apparently is who is being paid the premiums.  So why would corporate dollars be more in your self interest than govt dollars?

Asked and answered already.  1 is voluntary, the other is confiscatory

[BT]

When was the last job you had where insurance, if offered, was optional?

[Plane]

I am an electrician who works for the government , most of the time , when I am elegable for a promotion , the decision is made by someone who is not an electrician , who canot really tell if I am doing a good job or a snow job.

Does your direct supervisor have knowledge of electronics?
Do they not recommend you for advancement?

As a matter of fact yes , finally.

I have a supervisor now who is an electrician himself , he need not guess whether I know what I speak of, he can tell from his own education.

My evaluations have been better , and I am more often interviewed.

Previously my supervisors were always suspicious and unable to tell if I was being carefull or slow. Not being electricians they were going on human factors to determine whether I knew my job and did it well.

Unfortuneately when I interview for promotion the interviewer is not likely to be an electrician , so I havent escaped my old problem entirely.

[sirs]

When was the last job you had where insurance, if offered, was optional?

My current one

[BT]

So you opted for more pay rather than employer contributed healthcare? Or did the employer just offer the plan without contributions on their end?

[BT]

I am an electrician who works for the government , most of the time , when I am elegable for a promotion , the decision is made by someone who is not an electrician , who canot really tell if I am doing a good job or a snow job.

Does your direct supervisor have knowledge of electronics?
Do they not recommend you for advancement?

As a matter of fact yes , finally.

I have a supervisor now who is an electrician himself , he need not guess whether I know what I speak of, he can tell from his own education.

My evaluations have been better , and I am more often interviewed.

Previously my supervisors were always suspicious and unable to tell if I was being carefull or slow. Not being electricians they were going on human factors to determine whether I knew my job and did it well.

Unfortuneately when I interview for promotion the interviewer is not likely to be an electrician , so I havent escaped my old problem entirely.

Glad to hear your immediate supervisor knows the job they supervise. How much weight does their recommendations carry?

[Plane]

I am an electrician who works for the government , most of the time , when I am elegable for a promotion , the decision is made by someone who is not an electrician , who canot really tell if I am doing a good job or a snow job.

Does your direct supervisor have knowledge of electronics?
Do they not recommend you for advancement?

As a matter of fact yes , finally.

I have a supervisor now who is an electrician himself , he need not guess whether I know what I speak of, he can tell from his own education.

My evaluations have been better , and I am more often interviewed.

Previously my supervisors were always suspicious and unable to tell if I was being carefull or slow. Not being electricians they were going on human factors to determine whether I knew my job and did it well.

Unfortuneately when I interview for promotion the interviewer is not likely to be an electrician , so I havent escaped my old problem entirely.

Glad to hear your immediate supervisor knows the job they supervise. How much weight does their recommendations carry?

My immediate supervisor is responsible for my evals , the primary document of my promotion prospects.

I have had a lot of supervisors , got along well with a few, even when I got along well with a supervisor who was not an electrician , I was unable to demonstrate excellence to them, how do they know what is difficult or easy if they are not electricians at all?


I know where some Hospital policys are made by bean counters already, what will more and better bean counting do for medicine?

[sirs]

So you opted for more pay rather than employer contributed healthcare? Or did the employer just offer the plan without contributions on their end?

It's an option.  That was the orginal question, correct?  One can choose not.  

I understand the bureaucracy angle you're reaching for Bt.  Both Private insurance and Government have these monstrous bureacracies, that take alot of the decision making out of the process and from the patient.  That's never been denied.  One however is optional.  The other is not.  And, IMHO, given my experience with both, the bureaucracy of the government is far more egregious than that of the Insurance companies.  And add to the fact that reimbursement for services rendered is also far more problematic with government than with private insurance.

And add to that the references made by Sowell, how so many pro-government healthcare advocates will cite the need for UHC, because so many other countries have it, but never once looking at the severe detrimental repercussions such systems have had on that country's economy and healthcare delivery systems

[BT]

Actually i'm not trying to reach for any angle, other than perhaps personalizing the debate.

Seems to me a faceless bureaucrat is a faceless bureaucrat no matter whether they work in the private or public sector.

And it seems most honorable people put in a full days work for a full days pay, within the parameters and protocols of the job, so i don't see where the paymaster makes a difference.

BTW Sowell's opinion matters less to me than yours does, simply because the issue at hand is an industry in which you work.

I am of the opinion that health care is no more a right than a Burger king Whopper is a right. But I also am of the opinion that health care costs are out of control And i'm not sure private providers are the only answer.

What has to happen is insurance premiums must go down with any legislation that goes to the floor. There should be a copay that discourages abuse of the system and it should be designed so that no one gets a free ride.

And as far as i am concerned there are no sacred cows.

[sirs]

Seems to me a faceless bureaucrat is a faceless bureaucrat no matter whether they work in the private or public sector.

I can agree with that.

And it seems most honorable people put in a full days work for a full days pay, within the parameters and protocols of the job, so i don't see where the paymaster makes a difference.

It does for me, apparently

BTW Sowell's opinion matters less to me than yours does, simply because the issue at hand is an industry in which you work.

That's much appreciated.  As yours is from a public/political officer is to me.  While we can obviously disagree on many a point, your perspective of public service is most definately taken into account

I am of the opinion that health care is no more a right than a Burger king Whopper is a right.

Again, we are in agreement

But I also am of the opinion that health care costs are out of control And i'm not sure private providers are the only answer.

Agreed to the former, but obviously disagree to the latter.  Especially given the examples of both, that I have to deal with

What has to happen is insurance premiums must go down with any legislation that goes to the floor. There should be a copay that discourages abuse of the system and it should be designed so that no one gets a free ride.

I can work with you on that

And as far as i am concerned there are no sacred cows.

And again, we are in agreement