Author Topic: What are the REAL options for the U.S. and Israel on Iraq?  (Read 1339 times)

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Michael Tee

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What are the REAL options for the U.S. and Israel on Iraq?
« on: April 05, 2010, 09:37:58 AM »
http://original.antiwar.com/avnery/2010/04/04/hold-me-back/

Excellent article by Uri Avneri, an Israeli journalist.  There isn't a hell of a lot that either Israel or the U.S.A. can do about Iran, and it doesn't matter because neither one of them really regards Iran as all that dangerous.  Sanctions are a lost cause because China and Russia won't go along.  They are doing alright with Iran and Iran is doing alright with them.  War would be a disaster for either or both aggressors, as the first thing Iran would do in retaliation would be to close the Straits of Hormuz, and only a ground operation could re-open them, which the U.S. does not have the resources for.  There would also be immediate retaliatory attacks on Israeli population centres by missile and on U.S. bases in the region.  The rising of Arab masses would threaten to overthrow the remaining puppet regimes still controlled by the U.S.

This is an excellent rebuttal argument to the DEBKRAP propaganda bullshit that keeps finding its way into this NG.

BT

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Re: What are the REAL options for the U.S. and Israel on Iraq?
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2010, 10:26:10 AM »
The conventional wisdom says a nuke enabled Iran is a regional problem.

If that wisdom is correct then the nations of the region should solve the problem.


Michael Tee

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Re: What are the REAL options for the U.S. and Israel on Iraq?
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2010, 01:48:17 PM »
<<The conventional wisdom says a nuke enabled Iran is a regional problem.>>

Well, that's sure as hell the "conventional wisdom" among American talking heads, maybe also in some European countries, but I'm not sure about that.

<<If that wisdom is correct then the nations of the region should solve the problem. >>

Yeah, but the conventional wisdom is also that the Israeli-Palestinian dispute is a regional problem, and a regional problem of higher priority than Iranian nukes. 

So which regional problem do you think the nations of the region should resolve first?

BT

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Re: What are the REAL options for the U.S. and Israel on Iraq?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2010, 02:25:39 PM »
Quote
So which regional problem do you think the nations of the region should resolve first?

Why not both?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: What are the REAL options for the U.S. and Israel on Iraq?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2010, 02:31:20 PM »
The Palestinians are certainly more in need of a settlement. Iran is unlikely to nuke anyone if and when it has nukes, and it does not have them now. People in Palestine are hurting, especially in Gaza, which is basically an outdoor prison colony with an average income of around $2.00 per day.

I see no reason not to solve BOTH problems. I do not see why they need to be done one after the other.

Both the Israelis and the Palestinians tend to be more unreasonable than practical or pragmatic. The same is true of the Iranians. A two-state solution would be beneficial to everyone. Iran would probably not be safer from attack if it has nukes. Israel presents no threat to Iran other than if Iran has nukes. Neither Iran nor Israel could logically ever have territorial ambitions on each other.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: What are the REAL options for the U.S. and Israel on Iraq?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2010, 02:33:06 PM »
<<Why not both?>

The Palestinian problem's a lot more urgent, IMHO.  It deserves maximal effort without side issues or distractions.

BT

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Re: What are the REAL options for the U.S. and Israel on Iraq?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2010, 02:36:32 PM »
Quote
The Palestinian problem's a lot more urgent, IMHO.  It deserves maximal effort without side issues or distractions.

How patronizing that you think the peoples of the region are incapable of multitasking.


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: What are the REAL options for the U.S. and Israel on Iraq?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2010, 02:50:01 PM »
How patronizing that you think the peoples of the region are incapable of multitasking.

=========================================================
Is it patronizing even in light of the demonstrated fact that to date, all parties are incapable of monotasking?
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: What are the REAL options for the U.S. and Israel on Iraq?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2010, 02:58:27 PM »
Quote
Is it patronizing even in light of the demonstrated fact that to date, all parties are incapable of monotasking?

Are they?


Michael Tee

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Re: What are the REAL options for the U.S. and Israel on Iraq?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2010, 03:03:06 PM »
<<How patronizing that you think the peoples of the region are incapable of multitasking. >>

Ridiculous comment.  I'm one of them by race and heritage, how the fuck would I be patronizing any of them?  If they're incapable, then I'm incapable.

Besides, I never said they were incapable of multitasking, only (inferentially) that they were pretty capable of prioritizing.

BSB

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Re: What are the REAL options for the U.S. and Israel on Iraq?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2010, 07:56:15 PM »
You can and should solve both at the same time. You let Iran have their nukes in return for their cooperation in the region. They aren't stupid. They know they would benefit in a major way by cooperating more with the west, and we know we, and that includes Israel, would benefit greatly by their cooperation. It's going to have to happen, why not now?   


Plane

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Re: What are the REAL options for the U.S. and Israel on Iraq?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2010, 11:13:25 PM »
I think that the Iranians have noticed that they get more money for their oil when the world is just about paniced , being nuts pays.


So from their point of view , what is the problem?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: What are the REAL options for the U.S. and Israel on Iraq?
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2010, 02:36:53 PM »
 I would imagine  that Tee would be better at either than Netanyahu, whoever is running Hamas, or Amedinejahd or the Ayatollahs who yank his strings. I bet that they COULD monotask or even multitask if they set their minds to it, but the proof is in the pudding, as they say, and so far they have resolved nothing.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: What are the REAL options for the U.S. and Israel on Iraq?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2010, 03:35:34 PM »
I can imagine that you imagine a whole lot of things       ;)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: What are the REAL options for the U.S. and Israel on Iraq?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2010, 07:12:22 PM »
If the two problems were of equal magnitude, there would be no reason not to solve both at the same time, but as the Avineri article demonstrates, Iranian nukes are not a real problem for Israel and the proof of that lies in the fact that Netanyahu himself does not really take them seriously, nor does the  U.S.A.  They're a distraction from the basic Israel-Palestinian dispute.

The solution to the problem could be difficult after the first hundred miles.  The first hundred miles involves busting the balls of the settler movement.  As long as the settler movement retains its present power, there is not even a hope of progress.  But any Israeli leader who plans to bust the settlers needs to have a broad-based popular support independent of the extremist religious parties.  That's easier said than done.  And the reason it hasn't been done up to now is that no secular Israeli government has been able to hold power without the support of the religious right and its coalition parties.  Once a government can find an appropriate base, busting the settler movement will follow naturally.  Other than lone assassins, they have no real armed force, so the threat of withdrawal of protection  would be as effective with them as the threat of armed repression would be with more powerful opposition.

But even assuming the neutralization of the settler lobby, the search for a security compatible with Palestinian national aspirations may be an impossible goal.  I just don't know if that's possible any longer.  At its very least, it would involve maintaining Israel's current status of a nation in arms indefinitely even with a diplomatically compliant region.