Author Topic: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.  (Read 11808 times)

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #75 on: July 08, 2010, 12:42:59 PM »
Mikey has not changed anything outside this forum. Nothing we say here affects the world, in thew event you have not noticed.

The public outcry has made Israel look bad and rather stupid, because, well, they ARE bad and they HAVE been rather stupid.

But no, of course the blockade is no longer in place as it was before. It was one rigid blockade and now it is two less strict blockades: one Egyptian and one Israeli.

Previously, the border at Gaza was closed. So the Israelis had a rather short list of what could be brought into Gaza. Candy and spices were not on the list, for example: the goal was to make the people of Gaza miserable. Israel is trying to force the Gazans to rebel against Hamas, and it has not been successful. The Gazans blame the Israelis for their plight. They are unwilling to risk their lives trying to overthrow fellow Palestinians. Maybe they should, there is much to dislike about Hamas. Hamas is led by ideologues as silly as the silliest of the Mayer Kahane types in the Israeli coalition.

Hamas' rockets have not caused Israel to make nice with Gaza.
Holding that unfortunate Israeli soldier has not caused Israel to make nice with Gaza, either.

On the other hand, depriving Gazans of spices and sweets and cement and fertilizer has not made them make nice with Israel.
And yes there are many types of fertilizer that cannot be used for explosives. \

 Now the entry at Raffah is open. The Egyptians decide what goes into Gaza. The Israelis have decided to make a list of what is banned, not what is permitted as before. So this incident resulted in the people of Gaza being able to buy more things than previously, and their fate is no longer exclusively decided by the Israelis.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #76 on: July 08, 2010, 12:46:10 PM »
Ships are still inspected by the Israeli's and the Egyptians inspect the legitimate transfers at the border.

What really has changed?

Michael Tee

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #77 on: July 08, 2010, 01:07:26 PM »
<<Seems to me the orchestrated public outcry has had as much influence on the situation as Mikey's rantings have in changing US foreign policy. >>

Shit, BT.  You have no idea how discouraging that is to me.  Here I was, thinking that I had Barack and Hillary reading the threads daily and hanging on my every word.

BT

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #78 on: July 08, 2010, 01:12:22 PM »
Quote
Here I was, thinking that I had Barack and Hillary reading the threads daily and hanging on my every word.

My sense is that they are disappointed with your characterizations of the troops.


Michael Tee

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #79 on: July 08, 2010, 01:23:36 PM »
<<What really has changed?>>

Their image has gone sour.  There are more people thinking ill of them than before.  Maybe not enough to make a difference this time, but a substantial chunk of their remaining goodwill has eroded.

Like a bank account.  There's lots of goodwill remaining (just read these posts here in this thread) but outside the thread, large withdrawals have been made from the account.  There's still enough for the next atrocity and the one after that, but ultimately they'll reach a point where enough people say, "That's it!" or "That's enough!" and the sources of support and funding will dry up.  I'm willing to bet right now that in the liberal Jewish communities of North America and Europe, people who were formerly significant contributors (money, influence) are cutting back, or in some instances cutting off; or are much closer to reaching that point than they were at the start of this year.  The cynical fascists who run the fucking country can't continue to take the Diaspora Jews as if our support was automatic and eternal, because we are the ones who will pay the price in rising domestic anti-semitism the longer their list of atrocities and crimes against humanity continues to grow.  More and more Jews in the Diaspora will eventually reach the point of "You're on your own, ass-holes," which is not what any Israelis want.

Michael Tee

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #80 on: July 08, 2010, 01:27:05 PM »
<<My sense is that they are disappointed with your characterizations of the troops. >>

I know.  I haven't been as vitriolic on them lately as I used to be, and I know it looks like I am going soft, but I'm just tired and distracted.  They'll just have to understand that.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #81 on: July 08, 2010, 01:47:10 PM »
Ships are still inspected by the Israeli's and the Egyptians inspect the legitimate transfers at the border.

What really has changed?
================================
Only what is a actually getting in, I imagine. Are the Egyptians banning coriander and candy? I tend to think not.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #82 on: July 08, 2010, 01:55:14 PM »
I bet the coriander dealers are pissed. Screwed up the black market mark-up for them.


BT

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #83 on: July 08, 2010, 01:56:19 PM »
Quote
Their image has gone sour.

Yes the Jews are a sensitive lot. That must be crushing.


Michael Tee

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #84 on: July 08, 2010, 03:25:23 PM »
<<Yes the Jews are a sensitive lot. That [the souring of their image] must be crushing.>>

As I tried to explain, there are also financial implications to consider.  As well as a loss of influence.

BT

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #85 on: July 08, 2010, 03:57:01 PM »
Quote
As I tried to explain, there are also financial implications to consider.  As well as a loss of influence.

Bet they have all the coriander they want.

And what is influence compared to that.

Michael Tee

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #86 on: July 08, 2010, 05:32:42 PM »
So THAT'S what you've been smoking!!!  You people aren't supposed to know about that stuff.

Plane

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #87 on: July 09, 2010, 12:40:11 AM »
BBC News - Deaths as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship


A little BBC footage .

Still shows men with guns being clubbed .

No sign that anyone was shot before the clubbing.

I am a bit surprised tho that the incident happened 40 miles to sea, this is like stopping a shoplifter before they leave the store , they should have waited .

Can't fault the IDF otherwise , on the BBC footage it really looks as if the guy with the gun is attempting to avoid shooting the jerk that is smacking him with a stick.

Since this was a planned bit of theater there should have been more cameras around , perhaps there were but the pictures captured make the IDF look too good for publishing.

Michael Tee

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Re: Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.
« Reply #88 on: July 09, 2010, 07:21:53 AM »
<<A little BBC footage .>>

Yeah, a VERY little BBC footage.  Barely 60 seconds worth.  45 seconds more or less of onboard action, if you don't count the shots of approaching speedboats and Palestinian flags.  Covering maybe 15 to 20 feet field of vision of the camera, and that's being generous.  Considering that if even 50% of the passengers had cameras there would have been hundreds of individual records of the events, ALL of them confiscated by the Israelis once the ship was seized and thoroughly searched, NONE of them released to date except the snippet we've just seen.

<<Still shows men with guns being clubbed .>>

We already knew that.

<<No sign that anyone was shot before the clubbing.>>

What?  In the entire 45 seconds -20-foot field of vision, absolutely NOTHING?  Well that's conclusive evidence alright.  Nothing could possibly have happened before the film was shot or outside the field of vision of the camera.  Nothing at all.  Move on, folks, move right along.

<<I am a bit surprised tho that the incident happened 40 miles to sea, this is like stopping a shoplifter before they leave the store , they should have waited .>>

Yeah, how much better to kill innocent unarmed aid workers inside your three-mile limit, geeze in fact why not wait till they LANDED in Gaza, then kill them on dry land like the 1400 Gazans killed in the invasion of Gaza, there's nothing like legitimacy to make a massacre of unarmed people go down easy in the eyes of the world.

<<Can't fault the IDF otherwise , on the BBC footage it really looks as if the guy with the gun is attempting to avoid shooting the jerk that is smacking him with a stick.>>

LOL.  Why do you think, of all the available footage taken by passengers, the IDF is releasing THESE particular 45 seconds' worth and no  more?  Because somebody just like you is going to think, jeeze, <<it really looks as if the guy with the gun is attempting to avoid shooting the jerk that is smacking him with a stick.>>   Anything that even looks like someone with a gun is NOT trying to avoid shooting anybody else, with or without a piece of ship's railing in their hand, is not going to be released.  Anything that even looks like unarmed people are being gunned down is not going to be released.  You are seeing exactly what the IDF chooses to show you, nothing more.  You are not seeing any other footage the passengers shot, because almost every second of it has been seized by the IDF and not returned until they've determined it's harmless. 

Classic case of control and manipulation of information and you and millions like you swallow it hook, line and sinker.

<<Since this was a planned bit of theater there should have been more cameras around , perhaps there were but the pictures captured make the IDF look too good for publishing.>>

ROTFLMFAO.  Yeah, that must be it.  There is other stuff the IDF confiscated from the passengers but won't release now because, aw shucks, guys, we're just too modest.  We don't want to look TOO good now, you folks will start to think we're just tooting our own horns a little too much.