Author Topic: Does pornography equal obscenity?  (Read 6921 times)

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Universe Prince

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Does pornography equal obscenity?
« on: July 13, 2010, 11:39:37 PM »
Does pornography equal obscenity? There is a case in federal district court that may be about that very question. Of course, my question is, why is this even in court in the first place? Why is anyone trying to prosecute a producer of pornography in A.D. 2010 United States of America? This does not speak well of our society, in my opinion.

http://reason.com/archives/2010/07/12/the-trial-of-john-stagliano
         So you would think a small businessman like John Stagliano would be held up as a model of entrepreneurship in the United States of 2010. Stagliano built his Southern California company from scratch into a business now worth millions, creating dozens of full-time jobs with benefits (and providing well-compensated work to hundreds of others, too). Included among those jobs were hires necessary for the specific purpose of compiling the bureaucratic paperwork his industry is required to maintain by various levels of government.

Despite the red tape, Stagliano's California business, Evil Angel, has thrived. Then in 2004, Stagliano invested millions into the Las Vegas economy with an original, dance-centered production show on the Strip. The Fashionistas ran for years, far outlasting better known competing Broadway-generated titles such as Avenue Q, Spamalot, and Hairspray. The show proved a surprise favorite with critics, myself included, who were awed by the artistically ambitious choreography, costuming, and tight storyline told through music and dance.

I became friends with Stagliano after he closed Fashionistas to concentrate on Evil Angel, and so it seemed unlikely I would ever be called upon to write about him again. But then in 2008 something shocking happened: Stagliano was charged by the United States government with enough crimes to potentially put him in prison for the remainder of his life. How could this happen?

Because outside Vegas, Stagliano's day job is as a pornographer. Indeed, within the subculture of pornography, Stagliano is revered for being the originator of the "gonzo porn" genre, in which the viewer is brought more directly into the proceedings, often via performers themselves holding cameras. Stagliano has won numerous artistic awards from his indutry peers, almost too many to count. His movies are taught in graduate film programs, and psychiatrists have used them to treat patients with sexual issues.  

Evil Angel not only distributes Stagliano's films, but also the work of other directors he hand-picks. In this, Stagliano turned out to be as good a connoisseur as director. By 2008, the year he was charged with obscenity, Evil Angel was perhaps the most successful adult DVD distributor in the country.

[...]

But none of this history explains the prosecution of John Stagliano in 2010 for making movies with consenting adults and selling them to other consenting adults. When did his business suddenly become criminal? Why has the power and majesty of the United States government, the financial and personnel resources of the FBI, all joined forces now to try and send Stagliano to prison?

Here is the final piece of the puzzle. In 2005, under then-President George W. Bush, the Department of Justice formed the Obscenity Prosecution Task Force (OPTF). The ideological slant of the task force's "mission" is clear from its website: "Enforcement is necessary in order to protect citizens from unlawful exposure to obscene materials." In Stagliano's case, for example, an FBI special agent special-ordered movies that Evil Angel distributed. He then purchased the DVDs on the taxpayer's dime. There was never a single complaint from any actual citizen.

[...]

If [Stagliano] loses this case, almost any current adult content could be declared obscene.
         
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: Does pornography equal obscenity?
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2010, 12:01:34 AM »
But wait! There's more.

http://reason.com/archives/2010/07/13/closed-court-miller-time-and-j
         According to Miller [the Miller test], for a work to be obscene, it must first and foremost violate community standards. But despite adult stores selling hardcore porn of all kinds all over Washington, D.C., there has not been an obscenity prosecution here in more than two decades. Washington is not a community that seems to be at all concerned that adult films are being watched by local adults.

Another way of looking at the community standard is one that Judge Leon has explicitly rejected. For example, a piece of evidence the prosecution apparently wants to share with jurors is a scene from the film Milk Nymphos which shows a milk enema being administered to an actor. Yet jurors will not be allowed to learn that you can find literally hundreds of similar enema scenes for sale at, for example, washingtonadultstore.com.

Another prong of the Miller test is whether "the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value." Here, too, the judge has helped the prosecution.

Last week, Judge Leon ruled that jurors could not hear from Stagliano's two expert witnesses on the films' merits, on the grounds that they wouldn't have added much scientific value, and that the underlying material is the best evidence for whether a piece of work is obscene. One expert, Dr. Lawrence Sank, a respected clinical psychologist from Cognitive Therapy Center of Greater Washington, was expected to testify to the therapeutic and scientific value of the movies. The other denied expert, University of California Santa Barbara Film Studies Professor Constance Penley (see Reason.tv's interview with Penley here), would have testified to the artistic value of the indicted films.

And then in a shocking development late yesterday afternoon, Judge Leon indicated that he intended to issue a long ruling in support of his decision that the movies not be played in their entirety for the jurors in the courtroom, in apparent contravention of what Miller has traditionally required. The opinion is a strong signal that the judge is hoping to make lasting case law in this trial.
         

How does this case get to this point in our society? What the frak?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Kramer

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Re: Does pornography equal obscenity?
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2010, 12:09:31 AM »
There are people out there that like/want to control other peoples lives and activities. It matter not whether you are wearing a fur coat, drive an SUV or look at porn people want to control you. If you want to look at porn then go for it as long as the people making it are willing participants and not under age.

I think these controlling people are losers that have no quality of life and are miserable soles that are so unhappy they want to make the rest of us as miserable and unhappy as them. Misery loves company!

kimba1

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Re: Does pornography equal obscenity?
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2010, 12:16:13 AM »
Judge Leon indicated that he intended to issue a long ruling in support of his decision that the movies not be played in their entirety for the jurors in the courtroom,



Miller test is whether "the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value

hmm

Universe Prince

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Re: Does pornography equal obscenity?
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2010, 01:47:26 AM »
Exactly, Kimba.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

kimba1

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Re: Does pornography equal obscenity?
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2010, 02:23:07 AM »
I`m pretty sure any standard the judge puts out can pretty much be used to call anything from farming to religion as obscene.
ok that not much of a stretch

Universe Prince

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Re: Does pornography equal obscenity?
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2010, 04:14:06 AM »
Maybe you're right, Kramer. But what have we done that we have a government that decides to prosecute John Stagliano because (as near as I can determine) it felt like doing so? I mean, this isn't some cranky minister bringing this case. This case was brought by the U.S. federal government. Which should be protecting John Stagliano, not trying to put him in jail.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: Does pornography equal obscenity?
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2010, 05:31:34 AM »
What does a law against Obsenity mean then?

Is anything obscene?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Does pornography equal obscenity?
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2010, 11:13:34 AM »
Actual snuff films showing a murder are obscene, I would say.
Child porn is obscene.
I would rule that film in which animals are stomped to death is obscene.
If the jury is asked to decide whether a film is obscene, and cannot see the entire film, then the trial is bogus.
I don't think I have seen many porn films that had educational value, other than perhaps someone who had never watched a sex act.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

kimba1

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Re: Does pornography equal obscenity?
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2010, 12:03:53 PM »
I got to be honest I don`t care much for whats made today.

but the core problem on this issue is people are going to get charged retroactively. meaning people doing legal things one day will be charged later on . it`s not an obscenity issue anymore.



Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Does pornography equal obscenity?
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2010, 01:20:55 PM »
It is pretty hard to charge people with something until after they have done it. You can't very well charge them with future crimes.

I can see where "community standards" might apply to a porn theatre in a community, but it is hard to see where it applies to porn being streamed to one viewer in that community where no other members of the community are aware of it.

Again, films that show murders, torture and kiddie sex are candidates for censure, I'd say, as they encourage people to make more of them.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

kimba1

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Re: Does pornography equal obscenity?
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2010, 03:25:37 PM »
he was charge in 2008 for something he did in 2005. meaning he would not know what he would know what he would not know what is illegal until it was too late.

Amianthus

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Re: Does pornography equal obscenity?
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2010, 11:07:20 PM »
he was charge in 2008 for something he did in 2005. meaning he would not know what he would know what he would not know what is illegal until it was too late.

Actually, the issue is more that he made the films in one community and didn't violate those community standards, but later on the prosecution cherry picks another community and charges him with violating *those* community standards.

I would have less of an issue with a "community standards" as the defining standard as long as the same community the film was made in was used for prosecution. In other words, if it was filmed in San Fran, then it should only be tried in San Fran.
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Stray Pooch

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Re: Does pornography equal obscenity?
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2010, 08:20:35 PM »
If the jury is asked to decide whether a film is obscene, and cannot see the entire film, then the trial is bogus.


If I had a movie with one scene in it where a child was raped, would it be necessary to see the rest of the movie to determine if the film was obscene? 

If the movie contains material sufficient to - in and of itself - be considered obscene, then the rest of the film couldbe about Saint Bernadette and it would still be obscene.
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Stray Pooch

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Re: Does pornography equal obscenity?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2010, 08:29:07 PM »
Here's the thing.    I understand there is a difference between reading Nabokov and looking at child porn.  But the fact is, there IS such a thing as obscenity.  Pornography, in any form, has a lot of damaging effects on people and on society.  There is, right now, a thriving child porn industry that DOESN'T go away.  There are children and adults being abused sexually and recorded on film.  Now that industry exists because demand exists.  I see no reason NOT to examine this material and determine whether it meets the legal definition of obscentiy (scant though that definition is).  I know that the libertarian/liberal viewpoint says the government has no business controlling "victimless" behavior, but the issue of pornography (like the drug issue) goes far beyond the actions of consenting adults in "victimless" crimes.

I'm not even going to bother to go into battle on this issue, because I've heard it all before.  But the fact is, some things are wrong and ought to be discouraged.  There is a responsibility to protect freedom by using it appropriately.
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .