Reid: Immigration reform a top priority

[BT]

The two primary ones would be a reduction of trade barriers (including subsidies) and recognition of property rights.

One way to resolve border issues and the immigration problems that follow that is to move the borders.

There is a move afoot to take NAFTA a couple steps further, in effect making North America another European Union with a common currency and quite possibly common laws, including property. The big three countries have been having talks since 2004 and i would include the central american countries.

[Universe Prince]

One way to resolve border issues and the immigration problems that follow that is to move the borders.

I've half-jokingly suggested for some years that we'd solve a lot of problems if we just annexed Mexico.

There is a move afoot to take NAFTA a couple steps further, in effect making North America another European Union with a common currency and quite possibly common laws, including property. The big three countries have been having talks since 2004 and i would include the central american countries.

I would not be completely opposed to that. Any objections that might arise would be in response to the details of the plan. I think the countries of Central America might not be so inclined to what they would probably perceive as the U.S. taking control. But who knows? If the carrot is big enough, they might go for it.

[Xavier_Onassis]

They are right about step One, which is close the border as much as possible, as soon as possible.


I'm curious as to exactly what you think that would achieve.

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(Well, Duh!)

When a doctor seeks to cure a patient, the first thing he tries to do is to eliminate the cause of the malady. First, you kill the bacteria, so the malady will not get worse.

If 13,000,000 illegals are a problem, then 16,000,000 or 20,000,000 will be a bigger problem. An ever-growing number of illegals is an ever-growing problem. As I said, Duh!

Every country has a right and a need to control immigration. I am not against people coming here, but those who come, should be people that are actually needed, not fugitives from justice, not vagrants and beggars, not people with contagious diseases. Perhaps not people with congenital deformities, either.

[Mucho]

They are right about step One, which is close the border as much as possible, as soon as possible.


I'm curious as to exactly what you think that would achieve.

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(Well, Duh!)

Every country has a right and a need to control immigration. I am not against people coming here, but those who come, should be people that are actually needed, not fugitives from justice, not vagrants and beggars, not people with contagious diseases. Perhaps not people with congenital deformities, either.

The people with congenital deformities (of the mind anyway) are already here. They are called Republicans.

[Plane]

Or in other words , if this is causeing such problems , why can't conditions in Mexico , China or wherever improve enough to staunch the flow?

Excellent question. The answer is they can improve, but multiple things need to happen for that to occur. The two primary ones would be a reduction of trade barriers (including subsidies) and recognition of property rights. The former we can do something about, at least for ourselves. The latter is a more difficult matter requiring change with in the governments and political structures of other countries. However, I think America, both in business and in government, could campaign and even put some pressure on other countries to begin to recognize property rights. If we did those things, I think we would see conditions in Mexico and other countries begin to improve to the point that immigration to this country would become much less of an economic issue. But then, of course, people would complain because international companies would make use of workers in those other countries, the way they do in places like India and Taiwan, but that is another issue.

Is this a matter of government action or a matter of public understanding of the situation?

[Universe Prince]

When a doctor seeks to cure a patient, the first thing he tries to do is to eliminate the cause of the malady. First, you kill the bacteria, so the malady will not get worse.

The first thing the doctor does is to attempt to correctly identify the problem.  If the problem is not correctly identified, chances are good that the solution(s) for eliminating it may not do any good and could cause further harm.

If 13,000,000 illegals are a problem, then 16,000,000 or 20,000,000 will be a bigger problem. An ever-growing number of illegals is an ever-growing problem. As I said, Duh!

But you're assuming the people being here is the problem. As I said, if the problem is not correctly identified, chances are good that the solution(s) for eliminating it may not do any good and could cause further harm.

Every country has a right and a need to control immigration.

Why?

I am not against people coming here, but those who come, should be people that are actually needed, not fugitives from justice, not vagrants and beggars, not people with contagious diseases. Perhaps not people with congenital deformities, either.

You're making the same sort complaint that people have made about immigrants as long as the U.S. has been here. They're too poor. They're dirty. They're criminals. They're diseased. It's mostly a load of fearmongering nonsense. And nothing is more elitist and uncompassionate than to insist that we must keep out the undesirables.

[Universe Prince]

Is this a matter of government action or a matter of public understanding of the situation?

Both.

[Plane]

Is this a matter of government action or a matter of public understanding of the situation?

Both.

I don't think it is equally so.

The way that the people understand the situation should be first , then the government can do the right thing without hurting too many people.

[sirs]

My great-grandparents immigrated to this country without a laborious process other than essentially checking in at the door. And not so long before that there were effectively no regulations about immigrating to the U.S.A. And I think what is insulting is that people who are so desperate to make a better life here that they are willing to risk their very lives to get here and willing to risk jailtime just to get work with crappy pay because it's better than what they had, are to be despised and thrown out of this country....So with all due respect to Congressman Hayworth, the idea that we need a laborious and onerous process to control immigration to this country is an insult to those who are trying to come here now and to those who have come before us. And, if I may speak idealistically, it is an insult to the very foundation of this country, a foundation both of people coming here to this land to make a better life and the principals of liberty.

And with all due respect to you and your immigrant grandparents Prince, is that it's insulting to those who HAVE gone thru the "onerous process", jumped thru all the hoops, travrsed all the bureaucracy, and then be told "oooh, if you had simply just broken our laws, we'll taken much better care of you".  I know you hate hearing it, but our resources are finite.  I can vouch for that, from a health care perspective.  And advocating such an open border policy you seem to weild, will give exactly the ammunition that the left needs to bring about Univiersal Health Care, as our Hospitals & ER's get completely overwhelmed, if they haven't already.  The cries for the "Government to come to the rescue" will revirberate country wide, as more and more Hospitals and medical facilities simply can no longer handle the overoald.  Right here in Southern CA, we have yet ANOTHER Hospital, King Drew, failing miserably in its last several Accreditation surveys, with the point of Medicare/Government funds to be ceased.  Out comes Maxine Waters and company, making it into a racial event, and the cry that the Government needs to pony up more money to the Hospital, so that it won't go under.  That's not saying that illegal immigration is the cause, but it's a distinct contributer, and the "fix" is going to be the call for more Fed involvement.  Multiply that ten fold, with the idea of more open borders, (vs more secure borders), and whaaalaaa, Universal Healthcare becomes tangibly on the table, with the Maxine Waters of the country pledging to help our "healthcare system out", with a much greater # of folks (those same immigrants) that will gladly support it.

What made this country great was not strict control of immigration or closed borders. What made this country great were open borders and freedom of opportunity. We harm ourselves if we turn our back on that in the name of a security we can never genuinely have..

No, what made this country great has nothing to do with borders.  What made this country great were immigrants that came to this country to be Americans 1st & foremost, while still honoring the cultures they came from.  We harm ourselves by advocating complete diversity to the point that "America" no longer exists.

[Universe Prince]

And with all due respect to you and your immigrant grandparents Prince, is that it's insulting to those who HAVE gone thru the "onerous process", jumped thru all the hoops, travrsed all the bureaucracy, and then be told "oooh, if you had simply just broken our laws, we'll taken much better care of you".

Then don't tell them that. Tell them we're sorry they had to be put through such a ridiculous set of hoops and that we hope to change that so no one else will have to suffer through that nonsense ever again.

I know you hate hearing it, but our resources are finite.  I can vouch for that, from a health care perspective.  And advocating such an open border policy you seem to weild, will give exactly the ammunition that the left needs to bring about Univiersal Health Care, as our Hospitals & ER's get completely overwhelmed, if they haven't already.

That seems like a weak argument to me. We try to stop one bad thing by perpetrating something just as bad if not worse? That doesn't seem like the right solution to me. My dislike of the idea of government funded universal health care is not so great as to overwhelm my dislike of our immigration situation.

No, what made this country great has nothing to do with borders.  What made this country great were immigrants that came to this country

Came while we had a much more open border policy than we do now.

What made this country great were immigrants that came to this country to be Americans 1st & foremost, while still honoring the cultures they came from.

They did not come to be Americans. They came to make a better life for themselves. Just like the immigrants who are trying to get into this country now. And the same complaints were made back then. They don't assimilate. They come here, take low paying jobs and then send the or take the money home. They're a danger to the American way of life. It was nonsense then and it's nonsense now.

We harm ourselves by advocating complete diversity to the point that "America" no longer exists.

This is the most ridiculous of all the complaints that are made about immigrants and diversity. Of course the America of today will eventually no longer exist. Just like the America of 1776 no longer exists, and the America of 1860 no longer exists, and the America of 1941 no longer exists. Not all the change has been positive or for the best, but we are still here nonetheless, are we not? America will change in many ways and will likely stay the same in many ways. 100 years from now, someone will be complaining about taxes on virtual money, and arguing that the immigrants are flooding in and we just cannot possibly handle the changes they will bring about. Probably he will say it in a version of English that sounds odd to our ears just like the spoken English of 1776 would sound odd to us. But there is nothing wrong with that, and it is certainly nothing to fear. We harm ourselves by shunning diversity in the name of security. For diversity is merely another expression of liberty.

[sirs]

Then don't tell them that. Tell them we're sorry they had to be put through such a ridiculous set of hoops and that we hope to change that so no one else will have to suffer through that nonsense ever again.

Yes, I will tell them that, since it's the current truth.  I'll also tell them how so many immigrants work very hard at going thru the legal process to become Americans, because the Rule of Law is a cornerstone to this country, to which they respect.  It's precisely those folks who see America as their new country, not just "some place" where they can make a better life for themselves

That seems like a weak argument to me. We try to stop one bad thing by perpetrating something just as bad if not worse? That doesn't seem like the right solution to me. My dislike of the idea of government funded universal health care is not so great as to overwhelm my dislike of our immigration situation.

Weak?  It's one of the greatest likelyhoods of such an open border policy.  Next time you try going to the ER for an non life & death emergency, where you would have had to wait 5hours, but that the ER is actually closed, and you now have to travel an additional 15-20 minutes, so that you can wait 8 hours, then you can tell me how "weak" an arguement that is

They did not come to be Americans. .......

Yes, they did, which included making a better lives for thesmelves, not at the expense

This is the most ridiculous of all the complaints that are made about immigrants and diversity. Of course the America of today will eventually no longer exist. Just like the America of 1776 no longer exists, and the America of 1860 no longer exists, and the America of 1941 no longer exists. Not all the change has been positive or for the best, but we are still here nonetheless, are we not? .

<-----------------------whooooooosh-----------------------------------------
That was the point of my comments on diversity apparently flying right over your head.

[Xavier_Onassis]

You're making the same sort complaint that people have made about immigrants as long as the U.S. has been here. They're too poor. They're dirty. They're criminals. They're diseased. It's mostly a load of fearmongering nonsense. And nothing is more elitist and uncompassionate than to insist that we must keep out the undesirables.

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The dirty can be washed. I said nothing about the dirty.

The criminals, and some ARE criminals, will continue to be criminals after they have come here. Observe the high crime rate among the immigrants known as "the Travelers" and "the Gypsies". These are two groups that have as their lifestyle the systematic scamming and robbing of others. We do not need them. We should keep them out.

 Sure not all are criminals, and that is why we need to let in the ones that are not and keep out those that are. We do not need more scamming Travelers. We do not need more dishonest  Gypsies. Let them stay whereever they are and not come into the US.

The diseased should not be allowed to spread TB, polio and other contagious diseases to YOU, among other people.
This is a valid concern and always has been one. There are tests and cures for many of these diseases. At the very least, we should cure them before they come into the US and infect us.

Why is keeping undesirables out of the US a bad idea?

Your clever concept leads me to believe that you have removed the doors to your house and allow everyone that wants to sleep in your bed and eat your food to pop right on in and snooze and snack at will, even the ones that will leave bedbugs and lice behind and will spit on your food.

Are you really some sort of wacky and carefree communard as you seem to be?

The people of the US, through their laws and their Border Patrol and Immigration Service should have absolute control over every person who comes into this country.

period.

[Plane]

The people of the US, through their laws and their Border Patrol and Immigration Service should have absolute control over every person who comes into this country.

period.


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What if Interpoll were stronger and had more real teeth?


What if migration were managed by the UN?

[Universe Prince]

<-----------------------whooooooosh-----------------------------------------
That was the point of my comments on diversity apparently flying right over your head.

On the contrary, I got the point of your comments. Diversity for the sake of diversity is bad. But no one was advocating diversity for the sake of diversity. So that whoosh sound was more likely your point as plummeted to the ground like a rock.

[Universe Prince]

Why is keeping undesirables out of the US a bad idea?

Because they're coming in anyway, and will regardless. It's like outlawing guns to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. It's ineffective and only hurts people who don't need to be kept out.

There are tests and cures for many of these diseases. At the very least, we should cure them before they come into the US and infect us.

Why can't we just let them come to the U.S. and be cured? Anyway, I must have missed the story about the great TB epidemic started by Mexican immigrants. Perhaps you can point that one out to me.

Your clever concept leads me to believe that you have removed the doors to your house and allow everyone that wants to sleep in your bed and eat your food to pop right on in and snooze and snack at will, even the ones that will leave bedbugs and lice behind and will spit on your food.

If you don't know the difference between a nation's borders and a private residence, I doubt my explaining it to you would do any good.

The people of the US, through their laws and their Border Patrol and Immigration Service should have absolute control over every person who comes into this country.

period.

What a ridiculous thing to say. Absolute control is not possible. But you go ahead and petition the government to give you a list of all potential immigrants so you can mark down who you find acceptable or not. The real problem here is that we don't need absolute control over the U.S. national border any more than New York or Texas needs absolute control over their state borders. In point of fact, we should reduce the restrictions on immigration to the level of restrictions we have for interstate travel, which is to say, next to none. Or do you think people should be made to wait months, if not years, to move from one state to another so that each state can attempt absolute control over who comes into the state? Maybe you think your city should start working on absolute control over who comes into your city. Shouldn't you and the citizens of your city have, though your city government, absolute control over who comes into your city? Don't you want the diseased and the criminals kept out of your city? Why not just require every person in the country have to have specific papers from the government to prove they have permission to travel more than four or five miles from where they live? That would keep the undesirables out of your neighborhood. Or would it?