Reid: Immigration reform a top priority

[Universe Prince]

So the reason to close the borders is to stop the liberals from pushing us into socialism? A more wrong-headed approach to the situation I could not imagine. This conversation has officially gone into bizarro land. Would I accept government funded universal health care and a more socialist government to continue my support of open borders? From my perspective it's not about accepting socialism. It's about not accepting punishing people whose only real fault is wanting to come here to work and to create a better life for themselves. That is simply wrong, even if you are wanting to save America from socialism. If you're concerned about the socialism, attack the socialism, not the immigrants.

[sirs]

So the reason to close the borders is to stop the liberals from pushing us into socialism? .

No, please pay attention......to stop the collapse of our current healthcare system. 

Would I accept government funded universal health care and a more socialist government to continue my support of open borders? From my perspective it's not about accepting socialism. It's about not accepting punishing people whose only real fault is wanting to come here to work and to create a better life for themselves.

If one leads to the other, then it's apparent that you are willing to accept it, though probably not like it.  Which is fine, just be honest.  And 1 LAST time, don't even try to claim I'm against immigrants who simply "want to come here to work and to create a better life for themselves."  Never have, never will.  So no, I'm not attacking or "punishing" those that want to come here, only those that chose to do it illegally

[Plane]

So the reason to close the borders is to stop the liberals from pushing us into socialism? A more wrong-headed approach to the situation I could not imagine. This conversation has officially gone into bizarro land. Would I accept government funded universal health care and a more socialist government to continue my support of open borders? From my perspective it's not about accepting socialism. It's about not accepting punishing people whose only real fault is wanting to come here to work and to create a better life for themselves. That is simply wrong, even if you are wanting to save America from socialism. If you're concerned about the socialism, attack the socialism, not the immigrants.

Actually this would be as much a threat to socialism as to any oter system , suppose we were to spend some of the billions we are presently spending on keeping Mexicans south of our border and buy them plane tickets to Sweden instead?

I don't know why it would be any more expensive to us than what we are doing now , it might be a lot easyer since you could get more co-operation from the subjects.


Reminds me of the Conneticut complaint , Massitutucits citizens move out of Mass complaining about the tax rates , but as soon as they settle they start demanding more services and voteing accordingly.

[Universe Prince]

No, please pay attention......to stop the collapse of our current healthcare system.

Then what was that second paragraph about? You were talking about "ever increasing taxation" and "bigger Government intrusion and entitlements" as a result of the immigrants voting for it all. Was that not about socialism? Or was I not supposed to pay attention to that part?

If one leads to the other, then it's apparent that you are willing to accept it, though probably not like it.  Which is fine, just be honest.

I am being honest. You're trying to make this about me being willing to accept socialism, ahem, excuse me, the collapse of our current health care system, when in fact it is not about that at all. I'm just not willing to blame the immigrants for something that is not their fault. I'm certainly not going to agree that punishing them now for something they haven't yet done is a good idea. Any collapse of the health care system in the next decade or so rests with the Republican and Democratic politicians. The Republicans had a chance to do something, and they not only did nothing to help, they made it worse. They are to blame right now, not immigrants.

And 1 LAST time, don't even try to claim I'm against immigrants who simply "want to come here to work and to create a better life for themselves."  Never have, never will.  So no, I'm not attacking or "punishing" those that want to come here, only those that chose to do it illegally

Yes, you are choosing to punish them by supporting needlessly burdensome immigration law that prevents them from being able to simply come here to work and create a better life for themselves. Many of those people find risking death easier than our immigration law. And of course you are against immigrants who simply want to come here to work and create a better life for themselves because you are against simply letting them do that. You support instead a bureaucratic labyrinth of nearly mythic proportions that is intended precisely to prevent immigrants from simply coming here to work, et cetera. I don't see how you could be considered not against it when you clearly oppose it.

[sirs]

No, please pay attention......to stop the collapse of our current healthcare system.

Then what was that second paragraph about? You were talking about "ever increasing taxation" and "bigger Government intrusion and entitlements" as a result of the immigrants voting for it all. Was that not about socialism? Or was I not supposed to pay attention to that part?

Did you miss the part I put 1st?  Did you miss the part I provided as my biggest concern.  Was it the fear of socialism I put 1st?  The following paragraph simply stems from the original problem(s).  But obviously they're issues you simply want to turn a blind eye, yet claim that's my big beef.  Again, I say A, but Prince insists I say B

I am being honest. You're trying to make this about me being willing to accept socialism, ahem, excuse me, the collapse of our current health care system, when in fact it is not about that at all.

Yes, it is precisely what I'm talking about.  Remember (A)?

I'm just not willing to blame the immigrants for something that is not their fault.

Who said it was their fault entirely?  You're saying that have no impact what-so-ever??  And let's keep this focused......we're referring to illegal immigrants, not just immigrants

Yes, you are choosing to punish them by supporting needlessly burdensome immigration law that prevents them from being able to simply come here to work and create a better life for themselves. Many of those people find risking death easier than our immigration law. And of course you are against immigrants who simply want to come here to work and create a better life for themselves because you are against simply letting them do that.

No, I'm choosing to best protect both our finite resources, our Healthcare system, our national security, & yet still allow for orderly LEGAL immigration to this country, so that they may work and create a better life for themselves.  Traditionally, that's called following the American dream.  No one's being "prevented" from coming in, the borders haven't been closed, so cease with the hyperbole, por fa vor.  If I simply wanted to (as you claim) be against immigrants, I'd be advocating complete border closure, no one gets in, all applications to be torn up, tough luck, go peddle your wares in your own country.  Oh yea, mass round-ups.  Strangely, I'm not doing that, despite how often you keep implying I am.  More of that A/B thing again

You support instead a bureaucratic labyrinth of nearly mythic proportions that is intended precisely to prevent immigrants from simply coming here to work, et cetera. I don't see how you could be considered not against it when you clearly oppose it.

"it" being IILEGAL Immigration.  And so we endeth the debate, as I'm no longer willing to entertain your version of what my position actually is.  At least I know how you must have felt, when you had Terra continually telling you how greedy you must be for not agreeing with her Government-to-the-rescue cradle-to-grave ideology, despite how often you demonstrated how you weren't

[_JS]

Couldn't be more wrong.  If anything, it's much more as to their economic state (or plight) than the color of their skin

So it is purely class distaste on your part? By the way, it may not be racism or anti-Catholicism on your part, but it certainly has been on the part of others who are advocating the same thing as you. And you have certainly discussed language and culture in your debate on closing the border with Mexico.

No, please pay attention......to stop the collapse of our current healthcare system.

Then perhaps we should adopt a different system. After all, we pay more per person than any industrialized nation in the world!   

Actually this would be as much a threat to socialism as to any oter system , suppose we were to spend some of the billions we are presently spending on keeping Mexicans south of our border and buy them plane tickets to Sweden instead?

Or, let's see if Sweden could absorb the same percentage of poor Mexicans into their population as the United States could. Using Sirs figure of 12 million, that would be 4%. Well, guess what Plane? As of 2004, roughly 12% of Sweden's population is foreign born. The largest group are from nearby Finland (brought in as refugee children of World War II). Nearly 130,000 come from the Yugoslav wars of the 1990's. Over 223,000 come from the Middle East including a number of Iraqis. Over their history the Swedes have accepted war refugees from Iran, Palestine, Vietnam, Chile, Hungary, and Jewish refugees.

Sweden implemented the open-border policies of the Schengen Agreement on 25 March 2001. They are also a member of the European Union and allow EU citizens to live, work, and reside in their nation.

My guess is that not only would they handle the 4% better, but they aren't shedding tears for us right now.

[Plane]

What percentage of Americans are foreighn born?

What percentage of Mexicans are absent from Mexico?


If Finland were in such bad shape that as large a purportional group couldn't earn a liveing without leaveing , would you think that somethinf was wrong with Finland?

[Amianthus]

Using Sirs figure of 12 million, that would be 4%. Well, guess what Plane? As of 2004, roughly 12% of Sweden's population is foreign born.

Of course, you are leaving out the portion of the US population that is here legally and are foreign born. According to the US Census, roughly 34 million people are here legally and are foreign born. So, the total is 34+12 or about 46 million. This gives a percentage of foreign born in the US of roughly 15.3%. So, we're already higher than Sweden.

[_JS]

If Finland were in such bad shape that as large a purportional group couldn't earn a liveing without leaveing , would you think that somethinf was wrong with Finland?

They were mostly children who were left in Sweden during and after World War II. Finland fought th Soviets and was Soviet-dominated after World War II.

Of course, you are leaving out the portion of the US population that is here legally and are foreign born. According to the US Census, roughly 34 million people are here legally and are foreign born. So, the total is 34+12 or about 46 million. This gives a percentage of foreign born in the US of roughly 15.3%. So, we're already higher than Sweden.

Hey, one of those is me!

Of course the point is that the health care system in the United States is on the breaking point according to Sirs, Ami. Moreover, those 12 million are far from accepted.

[Amianthus]

Hey, one of those is me!

And two are my parents. And another one is my sister.

Moreover, those 12 million are far from accepted.

Of course. Terra was in here claiming over 13 million a few months ago, when the argument was "rounding them up and sending them home."

[_JS]

Again, the point Sirs made specifically is that the health care system is about to implode.

Plane then made the following statement:

Actually this would be as much a threat to socialism as to any oter system , suppose we were to spend some of the billions we are presently spending on keeping Mexicans south of our border and buy them plane tickets to Sweden instead?

To which I used percentages (to be fair to the fact that Sweden does not have 300 million people) to make the point that they do a rather decent job with what they have. Note that as members of the European Union, their borders (and thus healthcare system) are more open.

I'm not really sure what your point is with bringing up Terra or an extra million immigrants (note that Sirs claims that 12 million is a "conservative estimate" as well). In fact, I can't see that you have a point at all.

[Plane]

Again, the point Sirs made specifically is that the health care system is about to implode.

Plane then made the following statement:

Actually this would be as much a threat to socialism as to any oter system , suppose we were to spend some of the billions we are presently spending on keeping Mexicans south of our border and buy them plane tickets to Sweden instead?

To which I used percentages (to be fair to the fact that Sweden does not have 300 million people) to make the point that they do a rather decent job with what they have. Note that as members of the European Union, their borders (and thus healthcare system) are more open.

I'm not really sure what your point is with bringing up Terra or an extra million immigrants (note that Sirs claims that 12 million is a "conservative estimate" as well). In fact, I can't see that you have a point at all.

What number of Sweedens immagrants are entering illeagally?

The purportion of Americans that are leagally immagrateing would not be as low as 4%.

This might confuse me less if we were talking about apples and oranges and makeing the distinction.

All of the Immagrants to the USA since the time of Finlands fight with the Soviet Union might be close to 30%.

[Amianthus]

In fact, I can't see that you have a point at all.

That your claim of foreign born immigrants in the US of 4% is incorrect - in fact we have more (as a percent of population) than Sweden.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Whatever the percentage, there are too many ILLEGAL immigrants, and every effort to reduce the entry of ILLEGAL immigrants is the logical first step to establishing an organized and beneficial policy.

What we have now is neither organized nor beneficial.

[sirs]

Couldn't be more wrong.  If anything, it's much more as to their economic state (or plight) than the color of their skin

So it is purely class distaste on your part?

Js is absolutely bent on making this personal I see.  Couldn't possibly be my concern over the U.S. Health Care system or National Secutiry interests.  No, it has to be because I despise mexicans.  1st it was becuase of their race.  Now apparently I hate them because their poor.

Pretty pathetic Js.  Even for you