Let's talk Tea

[sirs]

The Founders' Vision Versus Ours

The celebration of our founders' 1776 revolt against King George III and the English Parliament is over. Let's reflect how the founders might judge today's Americans and how today's Americans might judge them.

In 1794, when Congress appropriated $15,000 to assist some French refugees, James Madison, the acknowledged father of our Constitution, stood on the floor of the House to object, saying, "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." He later added, "(T)he government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like the state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government."

Two hundred years later, at least two-thirds of a multi-trillion-dollar federal budget is spent on charity or "objects of benevolence."

What would the founders think about our respect for democracy and majority rule? Here's what Thomas Jefferson said: "The majority, oppressing an individual, is guilty of a crime, abuses its strength, and by acting on the law of the strongest breaks up the foundations of society." John Adams advised, "Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." The founders envisioned a republican form of government, but as Benjamin Franklin warned, "When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."

What would the founders think about the U.S. Supreme Court's 2005 Kelo v. City of New London decision where the court sanctioned the taking of private property of one American to hand over to another American? John Adams explained: "The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If 'Thou shalt not covet' and 'Thou shalt not steal' were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free."

Thomas Jefferson counseled us not to worship the U.S. Supreme Court: "(T)he opinion which gives to the judges the right to decide what laws are constitutional and what not, not only for themselves in their own sphere of action but for the Legislature and Executive also in their spheres, would make the Judiciary a despotic branch."

How might our founders have commented about last week's U.S. Supreme Court's decision upholding our rights to keep and bear arms? Justice Samuel Alito, in writing the majority opinion, said, "Individual self-defense is the central component of the Second Amendment." The founders would have responded "Balderdash!" Jefferson said, "What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."

George Mason explained, "(T)o disarm the people (is) the best and most effectual way to enslave them." Noah Webster elaborated: "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed. ... The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive."

Contrary to Alito's assertion, the central component of the Second Amendment is to protect ourselves from U.S. Congress, not street thugs.

Today's Americans have contempt for our founders' vision. I'm sure our founders would have contempt for ours.


The Founders version vs Ours

[Kramer]

The US Constitution was drafted and enacted by a bunch of Christian white men that believed in slavery and oppressing women and other religions (or that is the left-wing spin). Since the late 1700's, as the US became populated by more and more religions, races and genders these new citizens have found it difficult if not impossible to accept, defend, enforce, and respect such a great document. After all, these founders were such terrible guys.

So Kagen, Obama, Pelosi, Barney Frank and other haters have NO interest in following and defending the US Constitution or talking nicely about the Founding Fathers.

This might be one reason the Tea Party has few Hispanics, fewer Blacks, & NO progressives. This also can explain why white women are a big part of the Tea Party though. The white women who occupy the Tea Party aren't nut-job progressives, and therefore not feminist Nazis, though fully believing in the Constitution, because they are smart enough to know that the document protects them and their rights. Plus they harbor no grudges against the white man like your typical minority. Also they aren't so foolish to cut their nose off to spite their face, i.e. just because a bunch of 'white guys' wrote the document doesn't mean they had bad ideas or the document is flawed.

OK XO tell me I'm a racist, sexist, homophobe -- I can take it!

[Michael Tee]

<<The US Constitution was drafted and enacted by a bunch of Christian white men that believed in slavery and oppressing women and other religions (or that is the left-wing spin). >>

Nonsense.  The First Amendment proves that they had no interest in oppressing other religions.  As men of their times, they oppressed women and condoned slavery without giving either much thought, since both seemed natural and right in view of what was considered scientific evidence at the time of the inferiority of both women and blacks.  When the prevailing opinions were proven wrong, the principles of the Constitution, being of universal application, were able to be applied to rectify past injustice, even as the Framers had intended.  Which is why they laid down broad general principles rather than specific applications of them.

<<Since the late 1700's, as the US became populated by more and more religions, races and genders these new citizens have found it difficult if not impossible to accept, defend, enforce, and respect such a great document. After all, these founders were such terrible guys.>>

More genders came into the U.S. since the late 1700's?  Which ones?  I was only aware of two, and they were here since before Columbus.  You are seriously out to lunch on the attitude of new citizens to the Constitution.  The immigrants and their descendants revere the U.S. Constitution because it is the sole guarantor of their lives, liberty and freedom of religious choice.  They came from shit-holes in Europe that did not have such protection and appreciate the Constitution probably a helluva lot more than the native-born Americans ever did.

<<So Kagen, Obama, Pelosi, Barney Frank and other haters have NO interest in following and defending the US Constitution or talking nicely about the Founding Fathers.>>

Every one of them has at least one and in some cases two, excellent reasons to revere the Constitution and would have to be extremely irrational and crazy not to.  Nobody talks nicely about anyone any more (isn't Barney Frank regularly referred to in this NG as Barney Fag?) but if you have any specific examples of any of those good folk heaping abuse on the authors of the Constitution, I'd sure like to hear it.

<<This might be one reason the Tea Party has few Hispanics, fewer Blacks, & NO progressives. >>

But Occam's Razor says that the real reason is that they're a bunch a fuckin racists.

<<This also can explain why white women are a big part of the Tea Party though. The white women who occupy the Tea Party aren't nut-job progressives . . . >>

Of course not.  They are nut-job reactionaries.

<< . . .  and therefore not feminist Nazis, though fully believing in the Constitution, because they are smart enough to know that the document protects them and their rights. >>

That's hilarious.  Which of their rights are they most interested in protecting?  Freedom of choice?  Freedom from domestic violence?  Because I have to tell ya, it seems that "the left" is a lot more vocal in protecting those rights than the Tea Party.

<<Plus they harbor no grudges against the white man like your typical minority. >>

Why's that?  Do the victims of domestic violence among them all happen to be married to black men?

<<Also they aren't so foolish to cut their nose off to spite their face, i.e. just because a bunch of 'white guys' wrote the document doesn't mean they had bad ideas or the document is flawed.>>

The document is definitely flawed because it never abolished slavery or established equality of the races.  A Constitution written by a mixed group of whites, blacks, native Americans and Asians would certainly have been a different document.  The document also did nothing to establish gender equality.  Generations of women laboured under severe hardship because they couldn't afford to get a divorce if hubby could keep all the matrimonial property.

[sirs]

<<This might be one reason the Tea Party has few Hispanics, fewer Blacks, & NO progressives. >>

But Occam's Razor says that the real reason is that they're a bunch a fuckin racists.

While facts, evidence, and reality, clearly demonstrate that as NOT.   oy     

[Kramer]

My point is if you take your average 20 year old kid that has gone through any run of the mill LIBERAL controlled school district (there are thousands in this country) you will find a brainwashed person whose head is filled with all kinds of ridicules, stupid, moronic, anti-American, anti-Constitutional points of view.

Take a person that regularly attends Rev. Wright's Church for 20 years. How about someone that actually listens to the sermons...  They aren't going to hear anything positive about this country, the Founding Fathers, or the US Constitution by Rev. Wright, all they will hear is hate and Black Theology.

Take your average Hispanic after years of public school education in California she gets a free ride, all expenses paid, tuition to one of many CA LIBERAL colleges and they will graduate with the most distorted view of the US Constitution that anyone could imagine. A view that would cause a heart attack on any of the Founding Fathers even though they are already dead.

After all why is Obama crapping all over our US Constitution, our rights, and our country?

[sirs]

What Constitution?

[Michael Tee]

<<My point is if you take your average 20 year old kid that has gone through any run of the mill LIBERAL controlled school district (there are thousands in this country) you will find a brainwashed person whose head is filled with all kinds of ridicules, stupid, moronic, anti-American, anti-Constitutional points of view.>>

Well, you sure as hell won't find someone who thinks like you.  I went through a very liberal school system and to tell you the truth, I thought everyone else in the world, as long as they were well educated and intelligent, would think the same way we and our teachers  thought.  Was that brainwashing?  I didn't know we were getting a liberal POV, I thought we were getting the ONLY POV.  I suppose somebody could have taught us what liberals think, what conservatives think, etc.  We did learn how Nazis and Japs used to think, before we did them the huge favour of straightening out their warped world-view with some heavy aerial bombing.  But you know, as far as conservative thought goes, it is so fucking stupid and irrational that teaching it would have been a total waste of time.  Learning about Nazi and Japanese thought at least had some historical value in explaining the official "reasons" for the Second World War.  We were also taught what the Communists believed, but in a non-judgmental kind of way.  I recall at the beginning of that class, the history teacher said that this was where he usually heard a lot of impassioned rhetoric so if anyone wanted to sound off about the Russian Revolution or Communism, now was the time, the mike was open.  But nobody responded to the invitation and so the class went on

<<Take a person that regularly attends Rev. Wright's Church for 20 years. How about someone that actually listens to the sermons...  They aren't going to hear anything positive about this country, the Founding Fathers, or the US Constitution by Rev. Wright, all they will hear is hate and Black Theology.>>

They'll hear a healthy antidote to the God-Bless-America crap that is dumbing down the entire country.  They'll know what the Founding Fathers, who Whitey idolizes, actually thought about them and their ancestors, and they have every right to know this and to feel what the Rev. Wright feels about it.  Why go on faking love and admiration for people who talked about liberty and didn't give a shit if your own ancestors lived their lives in chains and under the whip?  The Rev. is right-on in everything he says about America.  Too bad more Americans don't listen to him.  Their fucking hypocrisy and refusal to face the facts is what got America into one mess after another.  The only country that thinks its collective shit don't stink is the one that has stunk up the whole fucking planet and continues to rain death and destruction down on millions as we speak.

<<Take your average Hispanic after years of public school education in California she gets a free ride, all expenses paid, tuition to one of many CA LIBERAL colleges and they will graduate with the most distorted view of the US Constitution that anyone could imagine. >>

Maybe YOU'RE the one with the distorted view, Kramer.  What makes you such a fucking expert and the grads of liberal colleges such ignoramuses? 

<<A view that would cause a heart attack on any of the Founding Fathers even though they are already dead.>>

That would be some view.  They sure as bitchin hell didn't get any heart attacks over the enslavement of millions of Africans on American soil, to pick cotton on Whitey's plantation.  They sure as bitchin hell didn't get any heart attacks over women's inability to vote.  Fuck them and their fucking heart attacks, who gives a shit?  They dropped the fuckin ball on racism and on women's rights, so I don't see any need for The Rev. Jeremiah Wright or anyone else to tiptoe around their fucking graves.

<<After all why is Obama crapping all over our US Constitution, our rights, and our country?>>

In what specific ways do you feel Obama is crapping all over the Constitution or your country?

[Kramer]

Show me where in the US Constitution that everybody, including illegal aliens, has a right to government subsidized health care and be required to purchase it.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I see no evidence that Obama is not following the Constitution. I see lots of evidence that many of the teabaggers are racists, including that Obama in whiteface picture that Kramer used to annoy us with. Kramer thinks all Black think like Rev Wright, all Hispanics think alike and are just waiting to replace Kramer, which would admittedly be a major improvement.

[Kramer]

I see no evidence that Obama is not following the Constitution. I see lots of evidence that many of the teabaggers are racists, including that Obama in whiteface picture that Kramer used to annoy us with. Kramer thinks all Black think like Rev Wright, all Hispanics think alike and are just waiting to replace Kramer, which would admittedly be a major improvement.

your standard debate line: Just another ratbag reactionary talkshow piece of crap.

[sirs]

What Constitution?

Not the deafening silence from the likes of Tee & Xo.  So nice to see so many points go unrefuted.  Keep up the great work, boys     

[Michael Tee]

<<Show me where . . . >>

Sure.  In the preamble:

<<We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.>>


Any other ways you feel Obama is crapping all over the country and/or Constitution?

[sirs]

Note the word PROMOTE, that Tee himself used

Note that is not analogus to PROVIDE, which is ALSO in the Premable, that Tee himself used

[Plane]

<<The US Constitution was drafted and enacted by a bunch of Christian white men that believed in slavery and oppressing women and other religions (or that is the left-wing spin). >>

Nonsense.  The First Amendment proves that they had no interest in oppressing other religions.  As men of their times, they oppressed women and condoned slavery without giving either much thought, since both seemed natural and right in view of what was considered scientific evidence at the time of the inferiority of both women and blacks. 

Actually Slavery was one of the great questions of the day , at least 40% of the delegates were determined that they would not sign any document that didn't restrict slavery in some way.

This is why the Pro Slavery faction had to accept some compromises like the three fifths compromise that reduces the political power of slave ownership and a constitutional ban on new slave imports.

If there had been no three fifths compromise there may never have been a civil war because the southern slave owners could have packed the congress .

The origional condition of the human race is racism it seems , and the subservience of women was common from anchient times untill pretty recently.

I think Madison , Jefferson , Franklin and etc. deserve major credit for composeing a document that allowed us to work our way out of bad habits.

What was the worst instance of the American People and government operateing outside of the constitution? IN my opinion this would be the Civil war , our most expensive and destructive adventure ever.