Author Topic: Republicans want review of birthright citizenship  (Read 35736 times)

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Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Republicans want review of birthright citizenship
« Reply #60 on: August 05, 2010, 03:55:01 PM »
really the issue is not the one's that are here...it sucks but they are here.
i would send 'em back, but realize thats not going to happen
wasted energy to fight that battle
the issue is once they do this bogus reform crap how do you keep millions more
from coming and becoming new "they're already heres"?
we've got in the vicinty of 35 million
do we stop at any freaking number?
60 million
100 million
200 million?
people living in squalor everywhere would love to come & trade squalor for a tiny apt here.
even if they cant find jobs here, "poor" here is better than poor most other places in the world
can we afford unlimited amounts of poor, educated, non-english speaking people flooding in?
the american people in almost all polls think there is a limit to how many we can take
they agree with me
the American People want limits on immigration, not make it easier.
i am just glad i wont be around to see the US as a 3rd World Country because of this insanity

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Universe Prince

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Re: Republicans want review of birthright citizenship
« Reply #61 on: August 05, 2010, 04:36:27 PM »

The issue is two fold.

Immigration

and how to handle those who enter the country illegally.


Even if, for the sake of argument I accept that, you have to deal with the first before you can address the second.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: Republicans want review of birthright citizenship
« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2010, 04:43:19 PM »

YOUR issue is this need to agree to your version of immigration & its "significantly relaxed" requirements, otherwise one apparently doesn't support immigration


I've never said that. You're apparently unprepared to discuss what I have actually said.


I'll be waiting when you're ready to discuss restricting some of your significant relaxation mandates.  Then we can address some of my willingness to lessen the current ones


You'll have to give me a good reason to change my position. I don't change my position just because you say I should. And so far, all I've seen from anyone is "They're going to ruin the country" fear mongering. That isn't a good reason to do anything.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: Republicans want review of birthright citizenship
« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2010, 04:50:07 PM »
Quote
Even if, for the sake of argument I accept that, you have to deal with the first before you can address the second.

No you don't.


sirs

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Re: Republicans want review of birthright citizenship
« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2010, 04:51:09 PM »
Sorry Prince, not going to play that game of yours today
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Universe Prince

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Re: Republicans want review of birthright citizenship
« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2010, 05:20:30 PM »

No you don't.


Yeah, you do.

I'm pretty sure you have to have immigration laws before you can have a problem with people breaking the immigration laws. And if the immigration laws are causing a bigger problem than they solve, merely dealing with illegal immigrants essentially isn't going to solve the problem. Maybe  you aren't required by the laws of physics to address the immigration issue first, but if you do not deal with the immigration issue before you address the issue of people entering the country illegally, you're not dealing with the root issue. It's sort of like an angry parent trying to force a child to follow lots of very strict rules and then complaining that the child is always unhappy and disobedient. You can scapegoat the illegal immigrants all you like, but until you address the immigration issue, you're just wasting time while the problem gets worse.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: Republicans want review of birthright citizenship
« Reply #66 on: August 05, 2010, 05:21:33 PM »

Sorry Prince, not going to play that game of yours today


Yes, I understand. Coming up with good reasons to want to tightly control immigration is so hard.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: Republicans want review of birthright citizenship
« Reply #67 on: August 05, 2010, 05:39:01 PM »
Quote
I'm pretty sure you have to have immigration laws before you can have a problem with people breaking the immigration laws.

We have immigration laws, and we have a process to change them. In the meantime we have an illegals problem, who are entering the country illegally under current law.

What physics has to do with this, i do not know.



Universe Prince

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Re: Republicans want review of birthright citizenship
« Reply #68 on: August 05, 2010, 06:14:01 PM »

We have immigration laws, and we have a process to change them. In the meantime we have an illegals problem, who are entering the country illegally under current law.


Yes. So now I will repeat a question I posed earlier in the thread: When laws are unjust is the real problem the lawbreakers or the law?


What physics has to do with this, i do not know.


Don't be dense.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: Republicans want review of birthright citizenship
« Reply #69 on: August 05, 2010, 07:17:17 PM »

Should a person give the government a chance to approve or deny a visa?

Why should a government have any controll over who and what crosses its frontiers?


It's like no one ever remembers anything I say. As I have said before many times, I am fully in favor of government keeping known criminals and diseased people out of the country.


Not unless you are in favor all immagrants submitting a leagal application you are not.

If you don't favor giveing the government a chance to examine the record and health of all immagrants you are not in favor of excludeing the ones who won't submit themselves to examination.

sirs

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Re: Republicans want review of birthright citizenship
« Reply #70 on: August 05, 2010, 07:45:04 PM »
Sorry Prince, not going to play that game of yours today

Yes, I understand. Coming up with good reasons to want to tightly control immigration is so hard.

Not the game I'm referring.  But nice try
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Republicans want review of birthright citizenship
« Reply #71 on: August 05, 2010, 07:54:37 PM »

We have immigration laws, and we have a process to change them. In the meantime we have an illegals problem, who are entering the country illegally under current law.


Yes. So now I will repeat a question I posed earlier in the thread: When laws are unjust is the real problem the lawbreakers or the law?

That's based on your opinion of being unjust.  Your say so, however doesn't make them so.  That's why your question isn't addressed to your satisfaction, because those you argue with on this topic, have not accepted your position that they are unjust, in the 1st place.  So, since the premice is already flawed, as it relates to immigration, you're never going to accept any answer.

But, if we want to address the question in a generic term, subtracting the immigration component, then you have to have a concensus that the law in question is unjust.  And when they are, then yes, the probvlem is the law, & the formula is legislative change, not simply breaking them, because they've been deemed unjust by........X

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Republicans want review of birthright citizenship
« Reply #72 on: August 05, 2010, 07:57:09 PM »
JUSTICE BRENNAN'S FOOTNOTE
SAVE US ANCHOR BABIES


August 4, 2010

Democrats act as if the right to run across the border when you're 8 1/2 months pregnant, give birth in a U.S. hospital and then immediately start collecting welfare was exactly what our forebears had in mind, a sacred constitutional right, as old as the 14th Amendment itself.

The louder liberals talk about some ancient constitutional right, the surer you should be that it was invented in the last few decades.

In fact, this alleged right derives only from a footnote slyly slipped into a Supreme Court opinion by Justice Brennan in 1982. You might say it snuck in when no one was looking, and now we have to let it stay.

The 14th Amendment was added after the Civil War in order to overrule the Supreme Court's Dred Scott decision, which had held that black slaves were not citizens of the United States. The precise purpose of the amendment was to stop sleazy Southern states from denying citizenship rights to newly freed slaves -- many of whom had roots in this country longer than a lot of white people.

The amendment guaranteed that freed slaves would have all the privileges of citizenship by providing: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

The drafters of the 14th amendment had no intention of conferring citizenship on the children of aliens who happened to be born in the U.S. (For my younger readers, back in those days, people cleaned their own houses and raised their own kids.)

Inasmuch as America was not the massive welfare state operating as a magnet for malingerers, frauds and cheats that it is today, it's amazing the drafters even considered the amendment's effect on the children of aliens.

But they did.

The very author of the citizenship clause, Sen. Jacob Howard of Michigan, expressly said: "This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers."

In the 1884 case Elk v. Wilkins, the Supreme Court ruled that the 14th Amendment did not even confer citizenship on Indians -- because they were subject to tribal jurisdiction, not U.S. jurisdiction.

For a hundred years, that was how it stood, with only one case adding the caveat that children born to legal permanent residents of the U.S., gainfully employed, and who were not employed by a foreign government would also be deemed citizens under the 14th Amendment. (United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 1898.)

And then, out of the blue in 1982, Justice Brennan slipped a footnote into his 5-4 opinion in Plyler v. Doe, asserting that "no plausible distinction with respect to Fourteenth Amendment 'jurisdiction' can be drawn between resident aliens whose entry into the United States was lawful, and resident aliens whose entry was unlawful." (Other than the part about one being lawful and the other not.)

Brennan's authority for this lunatic statement was that it appeared in a 1912 book written by Clement L. Bouve. (Yes, the Clement L. Bouve -- the one you've heard so much about over the years.) Bouve was not a senator, not an elected official, certainly not a judge -- just some guy who wrote a book.

So on one hand we have the history, the objective, the author's intent and 100 years of history of the 14th Amendment, which says that the 14th Amendment does not confer citizenship on children born to illegal immigrants.

On the other hand, we have a random outburst by some guy named Clement -- who, I'm guessing, was too cheap to hire an American housekeeper.

Any half-wit, including Clement L. Bouve, could conjure up a raft of such "plausible distinction(s)" before breakfast. Among them: Legal immigrants have been checked for subversive ties, contagious diseases, and have some qualification to be here other than "lives within walking distance."

But most important, Americans have a right to decide, as the people of other countries do, who becomes a citizen.

Combine Justice Brennan's footnote with America's ludicrously generous welfare policies, and you end up with a bankrupt country.

Consider the story of one family of illegal immigrants described in the Spring 2005 Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons:

"Cristobal Silverio came illegally from Oxtotilan, Mexico, in 1997 and brought his wife Felipa, plus three children aged 19, 12 and 8. Felipa ... gave birth to a new daughter, her anchor baby, named Flor. Flor was premature, spent three months in the neonatal incubator, and cost San Joaquin Hospital more than $300,000. Meanwhile, (Felipa's 19-year-old daughter) Lourdes plus her illegal alien husband produced their own anchor baby, Esmeralda. Grandma Felipa created a second anchor baby, Cristian. ... The two Silverio anchor babies generate $1,000 per month in public welfare funding. Flor gets $600 per month for asthma. Healthy Cristian gets $400. Cristobal and Felipa last year earned $18,000 picking fruit. Flor and Cristian were paid $12,000 for being anchor babies."

In the Silverios' munificent new hometown of Stockton, Calif., 70 percent of the 2,300 babies born in 2003 in the San Joaquin General Hospital were anchor babies. As of this month, Stockton is $23 million in the hole.

It's bad enough to be governed by 5-4 decisions written by liberal judicial activists. In the case of "anchor babies," America is being governed by Brennan's 1982 footnote.

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Republicans want review of birthright citizenship
« Reply #73 on: August 05, 2010, 08:07:47 PM »
That's based on your opinion of being unjust. 

Oh come on SIRS...lots of murders still happen even with the laws in place...
so golly gee our murder laws must be unjust! I mean think about all the costs
involved every year prosecuting and jailing murderers..in many ways enforcing
our murder laws "causes a bigger problem than they solve" because after-all the
murdered are already dead, so what are you solving with all the costs?
Yep....we need to change our murder laws because they are "unjust"!  ::)

ps: the problem is not that our immigration laws are unjust, it's that they
are not enforced...and thats because of an agenda of wanting to change
our country and you cant do it until you get tens of millions of new voters
with zero experience in the American Tradition to run in and change the
whole face of the county in a generation or two. they couldnt do it
at the ballot box...so they are going to get new people to help them
stuff the ballot box so they can carry out their agenda.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

sirs

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Re: Republicans want review of birthright citizenship
« Reply #74 on: August 05, 2010, 09:05:29 PM »
You know Cu4, it is interesting when this topic comes up and Prince is involved.  It's always spirited, passionate, and substantive.  I've come to respect Prince, on so many issues, this one included.  That said, it is truely engrossing to watch the back & forth.  For instance, Prince never said folks like ourselves are for closed borders, yet he opines "the policy you support would keep the vast majority of them out because they are poor and/or "unskilled". And a great many of those people who do manage to make it through the process still have to wait years if not decades. And those are the ones who can afford not only the immigration fees but the legal fees necessary for navigating the labyrinthine red tape." 

But no, that's not a policy of a closed border, and since we're not allowed to infer a shorterned version from what he has opined, it's apparently a policy keeping the vast majority of them out because they are poor and/or "unskilled". And a great many of those people who do manage to make it through the process still have to wait years  if not decades."  Because that's apparently what we want......to keep the vast majority of them out, because we apparently only want the few skilled ones in.  That's what you want, right?

But its not a closed border
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle