Whiner

[domer]

Israel was "seized" -- created -- in a whirlpool of horror and fear as a very survivors' haven. The emotions which drove the exodus and resettling were heightened, perhaps immeasurably, by the character of the land as the immigrants' historical and Biblical home, to which their religious yearnings perhaps bonded inextricably. As a Christian of European extraction, I am not neutral in the conflict that has developed. I have a strong interest to see the Jews with a homeland, settled and secure, able to crown their valuable culture with yet further contributions to mankind. In a way, my heritage, though obliquely, has been central to the Jewish fate in the 20th century. I want that corrected; perhaps you could call it animating cultural guilt.

That does not mean that the Palestinians don't have (and don't create for the Israelis) valid grievances. It just makes the job of sorting the moral and the ethical, especially after such a long time has passed, that much more difficult, if not virtually impossible.

[sirs]

When Begin was helping arm the Iranians for one. When Israel was helping aid Somoza in Nicaragua for another. The list is long.

I stand corrected.  Too bad my criticisms of Carter had nothing to do with Isreal or Apartheid

They are much the same. Israel destroyed entire villages, many of which weren't hostile in the least. They massacred Arab villages and a couple of Greek Christian villages for which they thought might prove trouble later. As an example of these heroic Jews, who learned so much from the Holocaust, here is what they did at Al-Dawayima during the 1948 War:

"heroic Jews"?  Who's claiming that?  And the 1948 war??  Is this like Tee using some event during Vietnam as some bizarro validation of current military actions and condoned behavior?  Have anything a tad more recent, or perhaps more relevent to the current state of affairs, Js?  And please note, that doesn't let Isreal off the hook if they did perpetrate such acts, back in 1948, as it doesn't let the U.S. off for whatever transgressions they allowed to happen during the Vietnam war.  Relevence & perspective however, play key components in this current debate, however.

To this day there are cities within Israel where only Jews may live. Is that apartheid? Damn well believe it is. South African Jews have evn said so.

That wouldn't fall on my list of condoned or supported activities, though I doubt that has any influence on you.  It appears, much like Brass's labelings of Bushlovers, unless I condemn the very existance of Israel, I must then support every one of their practices.

Palestinians are free to work where they want & when they want.

Absolutely and unequivocally a lie.

You're saying they're not allowed to leave Israel to work where they want, when they want??  That was the point of my comment, supported by the follow-up 

If they wish to work in Isreal, they must abide by Israeli laws.  If they don't like them, they're free to move & work elsewhere

Sorry Sirs, just because it is a law and because Israel tells them that they are citizens of a land they've never lived in doesn't make it so. A law is not just simply by action of being a law. I'm really surprised you'd take such a tact.

No more than my surprise of how you have no problem what-so-ever if Israel were literally run over by the Palenstinian population

A cop out. I gave you a specific situation, very specific in our last debate on this topic, and you still did not support the Palestinian man's right to his own property. You still supported racist policies in Israel.

No, I support the right for Israel to survive.  THAT's what I support.  Now, if you wish to take this into a tangential discussion about how racist Israel is supposed to be, I'd suggest opening up a new thread, and make sure to include your condemnations of every Arab nation around Isreal & that region, that have either public policies, party platforms, and/or religious edicts condemining the very existance of Israel, how Jews are to be treated (pretty much like dogs), and the Arab schools that perpetuate that hate, including geography books that don't even recognize the state of Israel.  As this really was about my criticisms of President Carter, then requiring me to some how figure out how I supposedly supported apartheid by my criticism of the Carter Presidency

[_JS]

In the same vein Domer, would you support Utah and part of Arizona becoming a separate nation devoted to Mormonism?

I believe we can agree that Mormons have been subject to historical mistreatment. In fact, they escaped persecution by fleeing to Utah and settling the area. True, they did comit their own atrocities against other settlers, but they have also contributed to society as a whole. Therefore, should we not allow a Mormon nation to be created?

And note that I am not neutral either. I'm half-German and have visited Dachau. I am a Christian as well. I feel extreme guilt for what was one of the worst crimes perpetrated upon a people of the 20th century. Yet, there were other victims of the gas chambers. In the context of history, the Holocaust was a terrible atrocity, but it was the continuance of a number of atrocities that continue today. It was horrible, but was not the first nor has it been the last (unfortunately) of atrocities.

The Holocaust should certainly give no nation or people the right to act in a manner where racism and their own atrocities are viewed as appropriate in the name of "security."

[Amianthus]

In fact, they escaped persecution by fleeing to Utah and settling the area. True, they did comit their own atrocities against other settlers, but they have also contributed to society as a whole. Therefore, should we not allow a Mormon nation to be created?

Well, they only "escaped persecution" until the US Army caught up to them...

[BT]

I feel extreme guilt for what was one of the worst crimes perpetrated upon a people of the 20th century.

Must be something wrong with me, because i don't.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Therefore, should we not allow a Mormon nation to be created?


=================================================
The Mormon War and the various documents agreed upon when Utah became a state were basically the US government stating precisely that: Utah is a part of the US. Non-Mormons will be accorded equal rights with Mormons in Utah and everywhere else in the Union. Mormon poligamy, a frequent source of conflict between Mormons and "gentiles" was abolished.

Israel is something entirely different: Utah in under the US Constitution and the state constitution: Israel has no constitution, and therefore no one has any constitutional rights in Israel.

In Utah, the Mormons do not have a Mormon party or parties as Israel has various Jewish religious parties, territory is not taken by force, trees of non-Mormons are not destroyed, there are no highways for Mormons only, Mormons do not detain non-Mormons at hundreds of checkpoints.

The idea that a state should be based on a single nationality and worse, a single religion is among the worst ideas that humanity has ever devised. The Muslims are also guilty of this, but that does not make it acceptable, simply more abhorrent.
 

Utah would be an ideal role model for all Palisrael (a unified non-sectarian nation).

Were it not for the intolerant nature of the more fundamentalist sects og Judaism and Islam, this would be possible, and better off for all concerned.

[_JS]

Have anything a tad more recent, or perhaps more relevent to the current state of affairs, Js?

Yes. I gave you an example of an Arab doctor and Israeli citizen not allowed to live in a Jewish city in our last discussion, that is currently ongoing. I also gave you an example of a Palestinian man who lived in his father's (and grandfather's home) near Jerusalem. One day he was told that it was not his home (though he was the third generation owner) and that he was a citizen of the West Bank, despite never having lived there. He was no longer an Israeli citizen. His two daughters were removed from a good school in Jerusalem to a slum school in the West Bank. He was no longer allowed to possess an Israeli license plate. He was arrested multiple times for being an "illegal alien" because he attempted to reside in his home. Eventually the City of Jerusalem rezoned his home. Why did they do all of this? Because he is a Palestinian. Happening right now, recent enough for you Sirs? I explained this in our last conversation.

These things you excuse with "laws" and "Israeli security." The truth is they are racism, pure and simple. They are exactly like apartheid policies and before you disagree I suggest you read about Bantustan and the Bantu Authorities Act before you start making statements about how "free" the Palestinian states are in the West Bank and Gaza. They are no more than homelands and an attempt to do exactly what South Africa did. And this is not a term that only South African Jews have recognised or Palestinian biased sources. Jews within Israel have also claimed that the system is unfair and that it is similar to apartheid. An Israeli human rights group made the statement that:

Palestinians are barred from or have restricted access to 450 miles of West Bank roads, a system with 'clear similarities' to South Africa's former apartheid regime.

The Israeli government calls the program Hafrada a Hebrew word meaning "separation". Apartheid is an Afrikaans word meaning "apartness." Seeing a similarity now? The Israeli Government calls it a two-nation system. The South African Government called the homelands "honourable independent states."

If you don't believe me, perhaps Archbishop Desmond Tutu would be more suitable a reference: Link


And here is a partial article from an interesting source: Link

Be sure and note the author: Meron Benvenisti is an Israeli writer and political scientist, and former deputy mayor of Jerusalem.

If they wish to work in Isreal, they must abide by Israeli laws.  If they don't like them, they're free to move & work elsewhere

How? Like the blacks in South Africa could so freely leave the country? Do you have any idea what it means to be desperately poor? Or to have lived in the same town that numerous generations of your family had lived in? That was callous and shows a poor grasp of reality. "Just move" - real humane Sirs. I guess you could have told the Jews and Roma in Europe under Nazism to do the same thing, huh?

No more than my surprise of how you have no problem what-so-ever if Israel were literally run over by the Palenstinian population

I'm saying if they are a democracy they should act like one. And the United States leaders, from both parties, should stop giving them a free pass to enact apartheid policies on their own people. If they cannot handle it then they should become like their neighbors and we should treat them as such, without all this special dispensation.

No, I support the right for Israel to survive.  THAT's what I support.

By any means necessary, yes I understand. Even if it means apartheid you give them a thumbs up.

and make sure to include your condemnations of every Arab nation around Isreal & that region, that have either public policies, party platforms, and/or religious edicts condemining the very existance of Israel, how Jews are to be treated (pretty much like dogs), and the Arab schools that perpetuate that hate, including geography books that don't even recognize the state of Israel

Take your false indignation and place it you know where. I have condemned those nations and certainly have no respect for their governments and their policies towards Jewish persons. What you really mean is that Israel is allowed a free pass because their neighbors are crap. I'm sorry, but that is bullshit logic and you know it.

The reality is that we support an awful regime in Israel and give them a great deal of support in cases where we should not, and would not if it were any other nation. We should treat them as the nation that they are. The people are fantastic, but the Government is horrible and it is high time Americans recognize that.

[_JS]

Must be something wrong with me, because i don't.

You're not German. It was taught to me.

[BT]

I am of German extraction. Then again, i don't feel guilty about slavery either.

[sirs]

Take your false indignation and place it you know where. I have condemned those nations and certainly have no respect for their governments and their policies towards Jewish persons. What you really mean is that Israel is allowed a free pass because their neighbors are crap. I'm sorry, but that is bullshit logic and you know it.

A) I'm going to have to take your word on the supposed condemnations, since I don't recall any

B) I see we're back that unless I condemn every aspect of Israeli law & rule, I must then be stating that they are "allowed a free pass, because their neighbors are crap".  You're right it is BS, since that's not my position

[_JS]

If you cannot take an in-depth look at the country you support then just say so. The games are growing stale.

The point is that the United States offers special significance to Israel which overlooks the many problems with Israel's policies. The question is, should we? Or should we treat them as any other nation that would so willfully choose apartheid? Moreover, should we (as a nation) be taking an active role in the process of aiding the formation of Bantustan states for Palestinians?

My answer is simple: no. Just because they are Israel doesn't make it right.

[sirs]

The point is that the United States offers special significance to Israel which overlooks the many problems with Israel's policies. The question is, should we? Or should we treat them as any other nation that would so willfully choose apartheid? Moreover, should we (as a nation) be taking an active role in the process of aiding the formation of Bantustan states for Palestinians?

My answer is simple: no. Just because they are Israel doesn't make it right.

Even pretendeding for a moment that everything you've said is 100% accurate (which I don't), they're not trying to abolish their neighbors.  But since I don't accept your premise that they are this overtly racist nation identical to South Africa vs a nation that has policies that many would deem inappropriate, largely the only true democratic nation in the region, and a staunch ally, my answer is simple, yes, in supporting their ability to survive, surrounded by countries & enemies that would wish to see them completely disappear. 

[_JS]

Even pretendeding for a moment that everything you've said is 100% accurate (which I don't), they're not trying to abolish their neighbors.  But since I don't accept your premise that they are this overtly racist nation identical to South Africa vs a nation that has policies that many would deem inappropriate, largely the only true democratic nation in the region, and a staunch ally, my answer is simple, yes, in supporting their ability to survive, surrounded by countries & enemies that would wish to see them completely disappear.

First of all, I never ask anyone here to accept what I say as Gospel. By all means check it out, but don't simply dismiss it and walk away pretending ignorance is bliss. I posted an article written by a former Israeli official from Jerusalem, Sirs. I can give you an abundance of links and articles to check out if you wish. These policies are blatantly racist and are the equivalent or worse than South Africa's.

largely the only true democratic nation in the region

Based on what? They deprive a large segment of their people from participating in their "democracy." By all means explain the democratic principles of Israel.

and a staunch ally

Pinochet, Somoza, and at one time even South Africa were staunch allies as well. Even then we did not offer them the same blind eye we turn to Israel.

in supporting their ability to survive, surrounded by countries & enemies that would wish to see them completely disappear

Can we not support their existence without supporting their government? We support Eqypt quite a bit as well, but we make no pretense that they are some fantastic democracy. Why not do the same with Israel? Why all the bias and false pretense? As you are so fond of saying, why not call a duck a duck?   

[sirs]

First of all, I never ask anyone here to accept what I say as Gospel. By all means check it out, but don't simply dismiss it and walk away pretending ignorance is bliss. I posted an article written by a former Israeli official from Jerusalem, Sirs. I can give you an abundance of links and articles to check out if you wish. These policies are blatantly racist and are the equivalent or worse than South Africa's.

Your definition of "blatant" and mine are obviously different, especially when you used yourself as how poor they are and unable to move out of Israel.  That's not a racist policy preventing them from going elsewhere & working where they want

largely the only true democratic nation in the region

Based on what? They deprive a large segment of their people from participating in their "democracy." By all means explain the democratic principles of Israel.

Based on Israelis elect their representatives.  Based on they have an open democratic government.  Based on they have elections every year, and pick new Prime Minisiters from time to time.  Based on the fact their Government body has a multitude of political parties, and not just our 2+.  Just because they don't have the open borders we do, or a Constitution that gives an illegal immigrant's newly born baby immediate citizenship status, doesn't make them undemocratic.  This has already been addressed before, as the # of Palnestinians far out# that of the Israelis.  Giving non-Isrealis electorate ability as Jews, would be giving themselves a legislative death penalty as a country.  Again, apparently you don't have a problem with that.  I do

Pinochet, Somoza, and at one time even South Africa were staunch allies as well. Even then we did not offer them the same blind eye we turn to Israel.

Oh yea, they're identical to Israel     

Can we not support their existence without supporting their government?   

 

How is that done?  Just words?

[Amianthus]

This has already been addressed before, as the # of Palnestinians far out# that of the Israelis.  Giving non-Isrealis electorate ability as Jews, would be giving themselves a legislative death penalty as a country.

Actually, only about 19% of the population of Israel is Palestinian. Also, 10% of the seats in the Knesset are currently held by Arabs, and legal Arabs are allowed to vote. Only groups that have denied the legitimacy of the State of Israel to exist are prevented from holding office.