Author Topic: And Poppy Wept...  (Read 14415 times)

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Brassmask

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Re: And Poppy Wept...
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2006, 01:58:04 PM »
Quote
Unlike Poppy Bush who weeps for his crimes.

You have no idea why Poppy cried. Neither do I. But then you have no proof that GHWB had anything to do with the kennedy assassination, either.

I have lots of information that says that he at least MAY have been involved.  That's something.

yellow_crane

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Re: And Poppy Wept...
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2006, 02:45:46 PM »

. . .  something along the lines of "well, that must be it." As best I can tell, none of you actually know the man, so your insistence that his crying must be about G.W. Bush comes off as really pathetic wishful thinking.
[/quote]


"actually know the man."

So, all manners of emotional expression are beyond understanding and interpretation, unless you "actually know the man?"  

Is Father Bush so individualist, so unique that nothing can be said of his manner and practice of emotional expression?

Well, that is one school of thought.

However, I wouldn't suggest embracing it, for the dynamic here--unique, individualist, beyond interpretation unless the subject is 'actually known'--more closely resembles a fairly common defense mechanism about therapy--a patient's strategy of defense against psychological counsel.  People early in group therapy will try to subvert the process by making such claims, thus striving to establish an equal footing and thereby controll  their invulnerability to an emotionally investigative process by suggesting that his "opinions" successfully deny the existence of any universal principles re: the emotional apparatus which are common to us all.

His "opinions" about the matter, which he carefully and, with questionable affect, calmly, submits as unassailable logic, thus   establishing a neat defense, should emotional pressure threaten his carefully constructed defense mechanisms against losing emotional control.


There is the matter of congruence.  The dictionary, defining the word for general common use, supplies clarification, variously:  corresponding, harmonius, fitting, suitable, appropriate.  

In the science of psychology and specifically in terms of the dynamics of emotional expression, it further specifies that feelings expressed are considered congruent, and therefore not pathological, if the energy and direction of expression are reflective and relate in measure to the stimulus.  Feelings expressed are considered congruent if they appropriately reflect the circumstance involved.  (It also should be added that, if determination is otherwise, one begins then to look for manipulative intent, usually defensive in nature.)

The question then remains:  was father Bush's emotional breakdown at Jeb's celebratory function one of congruence?  (In therapy, btw, an emotional breakdown is usually regarded as an emotional 'breakthrough," signalling a collapse of defensive stance.)

Was his emotionally expressive comportment appropriate to the circumstance?

It should be noted, that as an adjunct for comprehensive interpretation, other concurrent factors affecting his emotional system should have to be considered.  One such factor might be that while Jeb celebrated his departure from his generally considered successful governorship, his other son--the president of the United States--was about to be daggered by his father's best friend, publically, thus signalling interpretively a strong sense of defeat for the family in general, remembering that the role of father is usually vulnerable to interpretation via buck stops here.

Some schools, I add here, using a tougher tough love approach, would suggest that usually at the bottom of the motivational barrel, when all is said and done, we are finally really talking about ourselves.  In this particular frame of reference, one is left to decide if any feeling of failure as a father that he experienced dealt with the indefatigable merit badge winner Jeb, or the classically defiant, stubborn, rebellious, bent-to-disprove-father scapegoat son George.  

It is really an easy call.

Universe Prince

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Re: And Poppy Wept...
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2006, 05:50:32 PM »

Remember Ed Muskie?
That's why.


No, I did not remember Ed Muskie. I was an infant at the time of his 1972 crying incident, which I wouldn't know about if I hadn't looked it up at Wikipedia. But anyway, what does that have to do with Bush? 34 years is long time to hold a grudge.
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Universe Prince

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Re: And Poppy Wept...
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2006, 06:33:42 PM »

So, all manners of emotional expression are beyond understanding and interpretation, unless you "actually know the man?" 

Is Father Bush so individualist, so unique that nothing can be said of his manner and practice of emotional expression?


No, and no. I did not say nothing can ever be said about his emotional expression. What I said was there doesn't seem to be any basis, other than wishful thinking, for assigning the man's emotional moment to thoughts of President G.W. Bush. You don't know him and he is not in your therapy group, therefore you have not enough knowledge to make an informed appraisal of his thoughts at the time of his tears.


However, I wouldn't suggest embracing it, for the dynamic here--unique, individualist, beyond interpretation unless the subject is 'actually known'--


I wouldn't suggest embracing that either. Probably why I did not suggest it in the first place.


The question then remains:  was father Bush's emotional breakdown at Jeb's celebratory function one of congruence?  (In therapy, btw, an emotional breakdown is usually regarded as an emotional 'breakthrough," signalling a collapse of defensive stance.)


Except of course that Bush the elder was not in therapy. And what happened hardly seems like an emotional breakdown, unless you're going to call all emotional expression with tears an emotional breakdown.


Was his emotionally expressive comportment appropriate to the circumstance?


Yes. It would not be the first time a father had tears in a moment pride for his son. That you seem unwilling to acknowledge this possibility only adds to my opinion that your approach to the situation is one of wishful thinking.


Some schools, I add here, using a tougher tough love approach, would suggest that usually at the bottom of the motivational barrel, when all is said and done, we are finally really talking about ourselves.  In this particular frame of reference, one is left to decide if any feeling of failure as a father that he experienced dealt with the indefatigable merit badge winner Jeb, or the classically defiant, stubborn, rebellious, bent-to-disprove-father scapegoat son George.   


Feeling of failure as a father? See, this is what I'm talking about. You don't know that any feeling of failure as a father was even remotely involved. There is nothing in the moment to suggest that such a feeling was in play, except, as I said before, your wishful thinking. You're making up what you want to believe about the moment and arguing it must be true because you "know" it is. Or, to put it in common terms, you're talking bullshit.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

domer

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Re: And Poppy Wept...
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2006, 07:07:39 PM »
Look, they're public figures, indeed the most prominent public figures in the country. While a definitive "diagnosis" of HW Bush's cry will have to await a competent "analysis" of which he is a part, as Crane has amply demonstrated there are plentiful circumstances upon which a theory can be competently based. And doing so is part of our right and duty as constituents, in a process which they fully consented to by entering the rings they did. Besides, the exercise is common-sensical and heuristic: What do you REALLY think weighs most pressingly on Senior's mind these days? And what does this expression of anguish reveal about the depth of our plight? It has great value to the national dialog, even if symbolic, which I contend it was not.

Lanya

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Re: And Poppy Wept...
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2006, 07:38:54 PM »

Remember Ed Muskie?
That's why.


No, I did not remember Ed Muskie. I was an infant at the time of his 1972 crying incident, which I wouldn't know about if I hadn't looked it up at Wikipedia. But anyway, what does that have to do with Bush? 34 years is long time to hold a grudge.

I'm not holding a grudge, I'm saying that's how politics is.  It is more like street fighting than it is beanbag.  Crying is not done, not in politics, not in our culture. 
It may have changed some. Maybe. 
Even then, if she had died, I  could see him getting away with crying. Maybe.   But crying  because she was attacked by an opponent?  No. Way. 
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Plane

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Re: And Poppy Wept...
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2006, 12:38:35 AM »

Remember Ed Muskie?
That's why.


No, I did not remember Ed Muskie. I was an infant at the time of his 1972 crying incident, which I wouldn't know about if I hadn't looked it up at Wikipedia. But anyway, what does that have to do with Bush? 34 years is long time to hold a grudge.

I'm not holding a grudge, I'm saying that's how politics is.  It is more like street fighting than it is beanbag.  Crying is not done, not in politics, not in our culture. 
It may have changed some. Maybe. 
Even then, if she had died, I  could see him getting away with crying. Maybe.   But crying  because she was attacked by an opponent?  No. Way. 


I see your point politicians need to be topugh because we want to be lead by tough minded men.

Trueman Said , If you can't stand the Heat , get out of the Kitchen and his opposition was ferocious in compareing him unfavorably to rustic uneducated types.

But Former President Bush is old and retired , I don't think that attacks on him serve any point other than simple meanness.

Universe Prince

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Re: And Poppy Wept...
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2006, 01:11:52 AM »

Look, they're public figures, indeed the most prominent public figures in the country. While a definitive "diagnosis" of HW Bush's cry will have to await a competent "analysis" of which he is a part, as Crane has amply demonstrated there are plentiful circumstances upon which a theory can be competently based. And doing so is part of our right and duty as constituents, in a process which they fully consented to by entering the rings they did. Besides, the exercise is common-sensical and heuristic: What do you REALLY think weighs most pressingly on Senior's mind these days? And what does this expression of anguish reveal about the depth of our plight? It has great value to the national dialog, even if symbolic, which I contend it was not.


The sad thing is, I think you may actually be serious. Great value to the national dialog? Speculative rumormongering has no value to the national dialog. What does this expression of anguish reveal about the depth of our plight? Probably nothing at all. The real question is, what does this internet version of back-fence gossip reveal about us? I say it is not to our credit, not in the least.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: And Poppy Wept...
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2006, 01:15:43 AM »

I'm not holding a grudge, I'm saying that's how politics is.  It is more like street fighting than it is beanbag.  Crying is not done, not in politics, not in our culture.


I suppose you're correct, though I still say the mean-spirited speculations are unnecessary and ridiculous.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Lanya

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Re: And Poppy Wept...
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2006, 07:35:43 AM »
<<But Former President Bush is old and retired , I don't think that attacks on him serve any point other than simple meanness.>>

Well Plane, I know you all don't believe anything a Democrat said (God willing, Jesus will come down in the form of a gay Jewish Democratic Mexican union organizer and you all won't have a thing to do with him). 
But I didn't attack  GHW Bush. I was interested in why he cried. I surmised. You don't like it? Tough.

Prince, if by "mean-spirited" you mean "tell the truth as I see it about a Republican" then so be it. I'm mean-spirited.
By the way, is it mean-spirited to note that Poppy Bush is not lying in the cold ground?  He's alive, rich, etc. while his idiot son dithers and naps his way through the presidency?  While so far, 2,922 servicemen and women have been killed and who knows how many Iraqis?  Is that too mean-spirited? 
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Amianthus

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Re: And Poppy Wept...
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2006, 07:46:23 AM »
He's alive, rich, etc. while his idiot son dithers and naps his way through the presidency?

Sounds like "mean-spirited" and "jealous" to me.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: And Poppy Wept...
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2006, 07:59:32 AM »
<<But Former President Bush is old and retired , I don't think that attacks on him serve any point other than simple meanness.>>

Well Plane, I know you all don't believe anything a Democrat said (God willing, Jesus will come down in the form of a gay Jewish Democratic Mexican union organizer and you all won't have a thing to do with him). 
But I didn't attack  GHW Bush. I was interested in why he cried. I surmised. You don't like it? Tough.

Prince, if by "mean-spirited" you mean "tell the truth as I see it about a Republican" then so be it. I'm mean-spirited.
By the way, is it mean-spirited to note that Poppy Bush is not lying in the cold ground?  He's alive, rich, etc. while his idiot son dithers and naps his way through the presidency?  While so far, 2,922 servicemen and women have been killed and who knows how many Iraqis?  Is that too mean-spirited? 

There is no surmiseing necessacery, he explained his emotion himself and it is not hard to figure out form the context .

Unless you want to be mean.

Universe Prince

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Re: And Poppy Wept...
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2006, 08:08:46 AM »

Prince, if by "mean-spirited" you mean "tell the truth as I see it about a Republican" then so be it.


I did not say you in particular were being mean-spirited. But to answer your question, no, that is not what I mean. There is a difference between telling the truth as you see it and presenting speculations as truth. In this situation we have several people gloating over Bush the elder letting tears go in public and proclaiming it as a sign of his troubled conscience, but not because there is any reasonable basis for that speculation. And that is mean-spirited. As for whether that applies to you, if the shoe fits...


By the way, is it mean-spirited to note that Poppy Bush is not lying in the cold ground?  He's alive, rich, etc. while his idiot son dithers and naps his way through the presidency?  While so far, 2,922 servicemen and women have been killed and who knows how many Iraqis?  Is that too mean-spirited?


With your tone, it might be. I did not say criticizing the man for what we do know of and about him was inherently mean-spirited. I do not believe unfounded gossip does any of us any good. While it may help some feel morally superior to the Bush family, it still unfounded gossip. Something I should think we would want to reject rather than embrace. If that criticism offends you, too damn bad. I too get to tell the truth as I see it.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--