Author Topic: Craigslist Exec To Soon Catch Bullet With His Forehead  (Read 28079 times)

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domer

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Re: Craigslist Exec To Soon Catch Bullet With His Forehead
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2006, 03:11:25 PM »
Some in here consider corporations as one of the great evils of our society. That is simplistic. As a method of accumulating capital and organizing and dividing labor, the corporate structure is not only the logical fulfillment of our economic system but its crowning glory in terms of efficiency and productive capacity, and thus a crucial economic engine.

The downside to corporations is their dehumanizing tendencies, against which managers must be forever vigilant. Beyond that, in the two main aspects of corporate existence that I will criticize here, the very ethic of the corporation can (maybe) be tweaked, thereby introducing "public good" beyond profits as an animating goal, and the revolting excesses of executive salaries can be reined in to reflect value in realistic human terms, with the byproduct that corporate culture itself will become more responsive to the very reason for its creation: serving the people who comprise it and whom it affects.

The concept of "shareholder value," a cornerstone of every body of corporate law in the country, mandates that the board of directors and executives MUST make decisions and pursue policies and programs that will reap the largest monetary reward for shareholders -- or risk potentially devastating lawsuits by disaffected shareholders. I have always questioned this ethic, maybe because of socialist sympathies, but clearly because it marginalizes -- crowds out -- other considerations such as the "public good." To remedy that, tilting at windmills, I suggest a move to alter state corporate codes or to pass pre-empting legislation at the federal level establishing the "public good" (good luck defining it) as not only an acceptable but preferred method of corporate decision-making. This would remove the threat of shareholder suit against boards and executives who deem, in the context of a changing corporate culture, certain corporate initiatives to be followed simply because they're good for the community or the country and not necessarily for the shareholder's bottom line.

The other questionable practice of corporations (are there only a few?) is the exorbitant compensation they pay their executives. No one is worth that much. The best idea would be to tie executive compensation to a multiple of the lowest wage-earner's pay in the organization, and keep it that way. Not only would fat cats get lean, but due to their insatiable appetite for "adequate compensation," the powers that be would visit a benefit on the lowly when they deem it fit to give themselves a raise. Unfortunately, I surmise, this can't be addressed by legislation because the Contract Clause would render unconstitutional any attempt to limit the ability (within limits) to freely form contract terms, especially including the right to bargain for compensation. Nevertheless, as a matter of corporate governance itself -- shareholder politics -- it has a chance of being emblazoned into the private, contractual corporate charter and bylaws. This has a chance of catching on, by the way, because such a policy could actually enhance "shareholder value" (less expense), if the myth of the great man could be disspelled from the corporate mindset as to who is qualified to lead the band.

Amianthus

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Re: Craigslist Exec To Soon Catch Bullet With His Forehead
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2006, 03:23:53 PM »
The concept of "shareholder value," a cornerstone of every body of corporate law in the country, mandates that the board of directors and executives MUST make decisions and pursue policies and programs that will reap the largest monetary reward for shareholders -- or risk potentially devastating lawsuits by disaffected shareholders.

This is not strictly true.

There are a number of coporations that have "public good" built into their charters. And investors cannot hold a corporation responsible if their dividends suffer due to money spent on "public good" as mandated by the corporate charter. I will present, as an example, one of the corporations of which I am a shareholder: REI. They donate millions of dollars each year to conservation efforts, and I'm good with receiving a lower dividend at the end of the year. REI is not publically traded, instead following a "cooperative" business model, but the same principles can be applied to publically traded companies.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Brassmask

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Re: Craigslist Exec To Soon Catch Bullet With His Forehead
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2006, 04:04:35 PM »
Without a profit motive what wold keep the nasty hand of greed from ruining everything?

I concur with your assessment.

domer

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Re: Craigslist Exec To Soon Catch Bullet With His Forehead
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2006, 04:07:08 PM »
That is one way to approach it. By speaking of "corporations," I do not intend to convey a monlithic solidarity. As a general proposition, though, excepting non-profits, the concept of "shareholder value" is the dominant organizing principle. Rather than proceed corporation by corporation in their internal political affairs -- as I recommend, out of necessity, for executive compensation -- I would hope that a general political will could develop and be expressed in legislation memorializing the "public good" -- which I won't attempt to define now -- as a legitimate corporate aim in addition to (in tandem with) the maximization of profits. As this plays out in legislative hearings and future litigation, the concept will form more or less, and, in my view, affect the culture of many corporations for the better in addition to encouraging salutary products and practices beyond charitable giving, which often is conceived as a public relations expense. In sum, what I counsel is the start of a process, an intellectual and marketing experiment, to see if, in the end result, we can have a hybrid that can maintain the economic strength of a frankly "for profit" company.

Plane

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Re: Craigslist Exec To Soon Catch Bullet With His Forehead
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2006, 02:28:00 AM »
That is one way to approach it. By speaking of "corporations," I do not intend to convey a monlithic solidarity. As a general proposition, though, excepting non-profits, the concept of "shareholder value" is the dominant organizing principle. Rather than proceed corporation by corporation in their internal political affairs -- as I recommend, out of necessity, for executive compensation -- I would hope that a general political will could develop and be expressed in legislation memorializing the "public good" -- which I won't attempt to define now -- as a legitimate corporate aim in addition to (in tandem with) the maximization of profits. As this plays out in legislative hearings and future litigation, the concept will form more or less, and, in my view, affect the culture of many corporations for the better in addition to encouraging salutary products and practices beyond charitable giving, which often is conceived as a public relations expense. In sum, what I counsel is the start of a process, an intellectual and marketing experiment, to see if, in the end result, we can have a hybrid that can maintain the economic strength of a frankly "for profit" company.

And from AMIanthus
Quote
I'm sure a non-profit could compete against Exxon, if it's startup was funded adequately. Exxon has a big head start, with lots of cash reserves. However, regional non-profit energy co-ops have successfully competed against for-profit energy companies.


There is no leagal obsticle to founding a non profit oil company , but as Amianthus points out it would have to have an endowment.

By selling stock ,a for profit company can get an endowment from everyone who thinks the business plan is a good idea for society and also everyone who thinks his investment will be repaid with intrest, stockholders accept some risk that the business will not work .

If I had a newer and better design for a device usefull to the people , or a means of distributeing a commodity to the masses I would much prefer to use a for profit format and harvest the capitol of misers and altruists alike for my inital capitol , and as I succeeded I would reward the Misers and the altruists together with the dividends that they had a right to . The Misers of course will put the profit into further gains while the Altruists will put their profits into non profit organisations which they can now afford to fund.

Plane

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Re: Craigslist Exec To Soon Catch Bullet With His Forehead
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2006, 04:04:44 AM »
Quote
I suggested that maybe he was "cheap," and he answered: "Sometimes you're better off to hold on to that money longer and make it bigger." His wife, Jan, added, "It takes money to make money so that we'll have more to give away."

That may have sounded cheap to my TV audience, but it's actually a pretty good reason for Duncan not to give to charity. Great business creators like Duncan and Turner waste their skills if they just give money away. They do more for the world by creating businesses. Turner started with 12 employees. By the time he merged CNN with Time Warner, he employed 12,000 people.

Is there a better way to help the poor than by creating jobs -- opportunities for self-improvement? And when businesses make useful products cheaper and more plentiful, that helps the poor more than charity. Discount retailers like Wal-Mart help low-income people tremendously. Would Sam Walton have done as much for the poor by giving all his money to charity? I don't think so.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/12/are_the_rich_cheap.html

Universe Prince

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Re: Craigslist Exec To Soon Catch Bullet With His Forehead
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2006, 08:41:38 AM »

This sure sounds like a move towards an RBE type situation.

[...]

Furthermore, my subject line was something of a funny when I posted it but as I have typed, it seems to me that this may not happen literally, but could potentially happen figuratively. Corporatists in America can't sit idly by as an upstart brings communism into the mainstream of financial America. This could lead to widespread TRUE Communism in America. 

Seriously.


You know, I think you are serious. But you're only showing your lack of understanding of capitalism. You speak of "serving the customers" as if such were purely a communist concept. Here's a hint: no, it isn't. There is nothing at all un-capitalistic about putting customer service ahead of profits. Serving the customer is good business and does not require one to operate a business as a non-profit. I feel I should point out here I cannot find anywhere that Jim Buckmaster says he wants to eliminate revenue, only that he isn't trying to maximize it. Over at a ZD Net blog, however, I did find this:
Quote
On allowing text ads for the greater good: Buckmaster was asked why wouldn't Craigslist maximize revenue and profit for the good of the world. The general idea: Funnel the money from a text ad bonanza into philanthropy. Buckmaster didn't really have a good answer. "It's a valid argument," says Buckmaster. "You can make the argument that we could raise revenue to do good in the third world." Again, the decision would rest with users, who haven't really posed the idea or requested such a move. Craigslist would consider such a move if it began "hearing from users that we should raise revenue and plow it into charity."

I should also note that Jim Buckmaster has not spoken out against making a profit. All he really said was that it wasn't his top priority. Great. As a supporter of capitalism, I am quite happy to see someone say such a thing. I believe serving the customer should always be the top priority. So perhaps you ought to rethink the RBE/"TRUE Communism" cheerleading thing. It doesn't suit the situation, imo.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Craigslist Exec To Soon Catch Bullet With His Forehead
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2006, 10:30:53 AM »
Without a profit motive what wold keep the nasty hand of greed from ruining everything?

====================================================================
Er---the desire to rake in excess profits IS the nasty hand of greed.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Brassmask

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Re: Craigslist Exec To Soon Catch Bullet With His Forehead
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2006, 11:53:55 AM »
It doesn't suit the situation, imo.

Nothing ever does in your opinion, UP, so why should I bother following your advice?

What you continually ignore is that while your precious capitalism supposedly works in such and such a way, in reality, corporations work every way they can, especially in the realm of "public good", to maximize profits whether legal or illegal.   Legal defence, tax evasion attorneys, even governmental fines are factored into operating costs and budgeted for.  And until it becomes too expensive to ignore the plight of their fellow man in return for greater wealth, they will continue to do so.

Your cheerleading for capitalism is fine but in reality, that system is more abused than christianity.  You can try to believe that Exxon is doing on some scale what Craigslist is doing but that just ain't reality.  Exxon is not interested in putting more Tiger Marts on every corner so it will be more convenient for you to get gas or a giant Mountain Dew.  They just want your dollars.  All of them.  That's why they throw those TM's up and then close them down leaving blight everywhere.  It makes them more money.

To compare how Exxon does business with how Craigslist does business is just plain apples and oranges.

Universe Prince

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Re: Craigslist Exec To Soon Catch Bullet With His Forehead
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2006, 03:01:42 PM »

What you continually ignore is that while your precious capitalism supposedly works in such and such a way, in reality, corporations work every way they can, especially in the realm of "public good", to maximize profits whether legal or illegal.   Legal defence, tax evasion attorneys, even governmental fines are factored into operating costs and budgeted for.  And until it becomes too expensive to ignore the plight of their fellow man in return for greater wealth, they will continue to do so.


I don't know why you think I ignore that. You seem to be confusing my support for capitalism with support for the status quo. You apparently hold the misconception that the way things are now is the the ultimate height of capitalistic endeavor, but I do not have that problem. And of course you and I probably have differing notions of what constitutes the "public good". But you are quite mistaken if you think I do not realize that that corporations generally work to maximize profits. Of course they do, even to the point of partnering with government in the form of subsidies, tariffs, bailouts, regulations, et cetera, to increase their profit margins and to interfere with the competition. I am fully aware of these things and would like to see an end to them.


Your cheerleading for capitalism is fine but in reality, that system is more abused than christianity.  You can try to believe that Exxon is doing on some scale what Craigslist is doing but that just ain't reality.


Of course they're not, and I never said otherwise. In point of fact, I did not say anything about Exxon. Did not say, as in, never mentioned Exxon, never refered indirectly to Exxon, did not make any sort of comparison at all between Craiglist and anyone else.


Exxon is not interested in putting more Tiger Marts on every corner so it will be more convenient for you to get gas or a giant Mountain Dew.  They just want your dollars.  All of them.


And if they get my dollars, they my dollars by providing me with convenience and a cheaper price than the next gas station. If they don't, I spend my money somewhere else. Neat how that works, eh? Or, if I just don't like Exxon, I never have to go to an Exxon station. I can go to a BP station or Chevron or Shell or Hess or that discount place in front of Wal-Mart. If someone starts a gas station chain and proclaims that his goal is customer service not profits, I might even drive a little further and pay a little more just to spend my money there. All this is possible because of capitalism. I like it.


That's why they throw those TM's up and then close them down leaving blight everywhere.  It makes them more money.


I doubt that really makes Exxon more money. But where I live, there are no abandoned Tiger Marts. No other brand of gas stations have been abandoned either. So there is no gas station blight here. Too bad if that happens where you live, but I doubt seriously it is part of some money making scheme.


To compare how Exxon does business with how Craigslist does business is just plain apples and oranges.


Probably so, but again, I did not make such a comparison. All I did was point out that Jim Buckmaster isn't pushing an RBE or communist agenda. If he could be said to be pushing any sort of agenda at all, it would be a customer service agenda, and there is nothing anti-capitalism about that. Maybe I should be sorry if that bursts your bubble, but I'm not.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Xavier_Onassis

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Observations on buyiong fuel
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2006, 04:01:10 PM »
I drive a couple of Diesels, and I have found that it quite common to find water in the tank of many stations.
Because most people who buy Diesel fuel drive trucks and buses and buy over 50 gallons at a time, they seem to go to the cheapest stations. The price of Diesel fuel here in Miami varies from $2.52 to $2.89 per gallon. The more the station sells, the less water gets condensed in the tank, so I have found that I can avoid a lot of water-related maintainance problems by always buying at the cheapest stations.

The brand seems to have very little to do with the price. One Valero station is charging $2.54 and another about twelve blocks away charges $2.79. Exxon seems to have more uniform pricing. The most expensive seems to be Shell.

All fuel expands a lot when it is warm, so you get more fuel if you buy as early in the AM as possible. When I have been on trips, and used the cruise control for a constant speed, I have found that fuel you buy in the AM can give about 3 mpg more than fuel you buy when it's hot. I think gasoline may expand more than Diesel, but I'm not sure.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Craigslist Exec To Soon Catch Bullet With His Forehead
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2006, 07:00:26 AM »
Without a profit motive what wold keep the nasty hand of greed from ruining everything?

====================================================================
Er---the desire to rake in excess profits IS the nasty hand of greed.


This is true in coutrys where it is forbidden , not in contries where it is harnessed,

Greed is never eliminated , but it can be made usefull.

Brassmask

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Re: Craigslist Exec To Soon Catch Bullet With His Forehead
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2006, 04:33:24 PM »
Probably so, but again, I did not make such a comparison. All I did was point out that Jim Buckmaster isn't pushing an RBE or communist agenda. If he could be said to be pushing any sort of agenda at all, it would be a customer service agenda, and there is nothing anti-capitalism about that. Maybe I should be sorry if that bursts your bubble, but I'm not.

Actually, Buckmaster is running Craigslist in almost exactly an RBE manner.  They take in money.  Yes.  But they only take in enough to cover costs.  That's what they said in the article.  Now, you'll want to go out of your way to hunt down how they, in fact, do turn a profit and that's all well and good; but, the "CEO" of Craigslist, the point is to help people NOT to make as much money as possible.

Now, in a RBE system, those "costs" would be born by everyone and therefore no one.  That's the system.  He's operating in an RBE manner within a capitalist society.


Brassmask

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Re: Craigslist Exec To Soon Catch Bullet With His Forehead
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2006, 04:35:54 PM »
This is true in coutrys where it is forbidden , not in contries where it is harnessed,

Greed is never eliminated , but it can be made usefull.

Can you name one country where it is harnessed?

Universe Prince

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Re: Craigslist Exec To Soon Catch Bullet With His Forehead
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2006, 05:31:37 PM »

Actually, Buckmaster is running Craigslist in almost exactly an RBE manner.  They take in money.  Yes.  But they only take in enough to cover costs.  That's what they said in the article.


I want to ask if you're joking, but I know you're still serious. I don't know where the "only take in enough to cover costs" bit comes from, because I can't find any article making that claim. What I see in the information about this is that Craiglist takes in plenty of revenue, just not as much as some people think Craiglist could if Craiglist did things more like Google or Yahoo.


Now, you'll want to go out of your way to hunt down how they, in fact, do turn a profit and that's all well and good;


I don't have to hunt down anything. Craiglist is a growing company, which means they make a profit. If Craiglist didn't make a profit, if they just took in enough to cover what they do now, they couldn't grow. 


but, the "CEO" of Craigslist, the point is to help people NOT to make as much money as possible.


The goal is to serve customers. I cannot find anywhere that quotes Jim Buckmaster as saying their goal is not to make money. All he said was that maximizing profits was not their goal. And as I said before, there is nothing anti-capitalist about serving the customer.


Now, in a RBE system, those "costs" would be born by everyone and therefore no one.  That's the system.  He's operating in an RBE manner within a capitalist society.


He is operating a privately owned business in a capitalist manner within a capitalist society. You can twist this all you like, but that is the simple truth of the matter. Yes, I know you want to keep capitalism confined to some sort of bizarrely narrow definition that includes not caring about customers, but you're wrong. Putting customer service ahead of profits is a good business practice and fits comfortably within the realm of capitalism.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--