Author Topic: Obama shouldn't be doing this  (Read 5932 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Obama shouldn't be doing this
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2010, 01:19:16 PM »
If I go through a scanner, precisely how does that "screw you" in any way?

Because I'm being forced to, with the support of folks like yourself.  If it were optional, and still be allowed to fly, then there'd be no issue



"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16143
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Obama shouldn't be doing this
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2010, 01:36:22 PM »
Quote
Because I'm being forced to, with the support of folks like yourself.

I truly doubt that CU, XO, or myself have any bearing on the formation of TSA policy.

It's just as likely that this is all your fault because of your ineffective objections to the policy.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Obama shouldn't be doing this
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2010, 01:43:40 PM »
If you refuse to acknolwedge the point being made, and are trying to ride the xo-like literal train, then you can disembark any time.  I support DUI checkpoints.  It doesn't mean I'm a member of the legislative branch, or even MADD, but it does mean I support law enforcment's efforts and actions

Then again, you know that as well, which begs the question.....why the tactic?  Merely to be confrontational?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16143
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Obama shouldn't be doing this
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2010, 01:45:41 PM »
Perhaps you can explain how you support DUI checkpoints but do not support airport security screening. They are fruit of the same tree.


sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Obama shouldn't be doing this
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2010, 01:52:13 PM »
DUI checkpoints are performed when law enforcment SUSPECTS someone of driving under the influence (meaning they are breaking the law).  ONLY THEN is a more thorough search initiated

Different fruit, different trees, though I knew you'd try this tactic as well
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16143
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Obama shouldn't be doing this
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2010, 02:02:17 PM »
Quote
DUI checkpoints are performed when law enforcment SUSPECTS someone of driving under the influence (meaning they are breaking the law).  ONLY THEN is a more thorough search initiated

Nonsense. DUI checkpoints are randomly located roadblocks where everyone who drives through that location is stopped, forced to show compliance with state regulations and allowed to proceed if they pass those requirements.

No license , pulled to the side. Not wearing a seatbelt, pulled to the side. No insurance, pulled to the side. No registration, pulled to the side. No car seat, no tail lights, pulled to the side.

Alcohol does not need to be involved.

And just so you know, DUI checkpoints rulings were used as precedent for the Ninth's decision re: airport searches.

Both cases were argued on 4th amendment issues, both were ruled constitutional.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Obama shouldn't be doing this
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2010, 03:10:02 PM »
Quote
DUI checkpoints are performed when law enforcment SUSPECTS someone of driving under the influence (meaning they are breaking the law).  ONLY THEN is a more thorough search initiated

Nonsense. DUI checkpoints are randomly located roadblocks where everyone who drives through that location is stopped, forced to show compliance with state regulations and allowed to proceed if they pass those requirements.

And notice nothing is done outside of a stop.  No one is arguing passensgers shouldn't be required to wait in a line, or even not show ID.  We're talking about the 4th amendment.  What pray tell is a DUI checkpoint doing to trample on the 4th??  You are getting so desperate to be confrontational, you are bordering on ludicrous


No license , pulled to the side. Not wearing a seatbelt, pulled to the side. No insurance, pulled to the side. No registration, pulled to the side. No car seat, no tail lights, pulled to the side.

In other words, BREAKING THE LAW, THEN PULLED TO THE SIDE   ::)

 
Both cases were argued on 4th amendment issues, both were ruled constitutional.

1 was a BAD decision.  Hopefully to be rectified with RR's recent reference to lawsuits, in the works.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16143
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Obama shouldn't be doing this
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2010, 03:54:13 PM »
The argument against roadblocks was that there was no probable cause to do so. The counter argument was that getting impaired drivers and uninsured drivers off the road for the common good outweighed the the limitations of 4th amendment rights.

The same can be said for airport checkpoints. Being in favor of roadblocks but not in favor of airport security in whatever form it takes is inconsistent.

Quote
You are getting so desperate to be confrontational, you are bordering on ludicrous

I'm being confrontational by not agreeing with your position? Hmmm




sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Obama shouldn't be doing this
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2010, 04:22:59 PM »
The argument against roadblocks was that there was no probable cause to do so.

Yes, but once again, we're not talking about unreasonable searches there, which is what the argument about the 4th amendment is all about.  You're not being groped in the car, for no reason. 

No one is claiming you shouldn't be made to wait in a line or not show ID, so your continued to attempt to equate the 2 continues to border on the ludicrous


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16143
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Obama shouldn't be doing this
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2010, 04:38:21 PM »
he Supreme Court held that Michigan had a "substantial government interest" to advance in stopping drunk driving, and that this technique was rationally related to achieving that goal (though there was some evidence to the contrary). The Court also held that the impact on drivers, such as in delaying them from reaching their destination, was negligible, and that the brief questioning to gain "reasonable suspicion" similarly had a negligible impact on the drivers' Fourth Amendment right from unreasonable search (implying that any more detailed or invasive searches would be treated differently). Applying a balancing test, then, the Court found that the Constitutionality of the search tilted in favor of the government.

Case opinions
Majority    Rehnquist, joined by White, O'Connor, Scalia, Kennedy
Concurrence    Blackmun
Dissent    Stevens, joined by Brennan, Marshall
Laws applied
Fourth Amendment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Dept._of_State_Police_v._Sitz

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Obama shouldn't be doing this
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2010, 05:06:11 PM »
Still waiting for the specifics to where's the unreasonable search in a DUI checkpoint, for merely being stopped.  It seems that the conservative justices also agreed with me on this one as well.  By all means, continue.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16143
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Obama shouldn't be doing this
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2010, 05:28:54 PM »
Michigan Dept. of State Police v. Sitz, 496 U.S. 444 (1990), was a United States Supreme Court case involving the constitutionality of police sobriety checkpoints. By a vote of 6-3, the Court held that these checkpoints met the Fourth Amendment standard of "reasonable search and seizure."
[edit] Background

In the state of Michigan, the state police adopted the practice of using random sobriety checkpoints to catch drunk drivers. A group of Michigan residents sued on the grounds that their Fourth Amendment rights prohibiting unreasonable search and seizure were being violated.

As the dissenting opinion by Justice Stevens explains, "a sobriety checkpoint is usually operated at night at an unannounced location. Surprise is crucial to its method. The test operation conducted by the Michigan State Police and the Saginaw County Sheriff's Department began shortly after midnight and lasted until about 1 a.m. During that period, the 19 officers participating in the operation made two arrests and stopped and questioned 124 other unsuspecting and innocent drivers"

During the operation, drivers would be stopped and briefly questioned while in their vehicles. If an officer suspected the driver was intoxicated, the driver would be sent off for a field sobriety test.

Holding

The Supreme Court held that Michigan had a "substantial government interest" to advance in stopping drunk driving, and that this technique was rationally related to achieving that goal (though there was some evidence to the contrary). The Court also held that the impact on drivers, such as in delaying them from reaching their destination, was negligible, and that the brief questioning to gain "reasonable suspicion" similarly had a negligible impact on the drivers' Fourth Amendment right from unreasonable search (implying that any more detailed or invasive searches would be treated differently). Applying a balancing test, then, the Court found that the Constitutionality of the search tilted in favor of the government.

The conservative justices held that the limiting of 4th amendment rights had a negligible effect on the drivers and the common good outweighed the lessening of these rights.

What is interesting is that the liberal justices held for the 4th as written.

Much like your position on the TSA controversy.


sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Obama shouldn't be doing this
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2010, 05:44:17 PM »
Sued, and lost, because they were NOT unreasonable.  Not sure why we're having this discussion.  You serious trying to compare groping with merely being stopped?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16143
    • View Profile
    • DebateGate
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Obama shouldn't be doing this
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2010, 05:54:04 PM »
Quote
You serious trying to compare groping with merely being stopped?

Are you seriously trying to say that the 4th is now not absolute?

Perhaps you should shift your argument from the 4th to the same argument that was used to allow for abortions, the expectation of privacy.


sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Obama shouldn't be doing this
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2010, 06:14:34 PM »
Quote
You serious trying to compare groping with merely being stopped?

Are you seriously trying to say that the 4th is now not absolute?

We apparently have a severe difference in how we define "unreasonable".  Gonna have to side with the conservative minded-Constitutionally focused justices on this one.  Your mileage may vary




"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle