TSA --> TYJA?

[Christians4LessGvt]

So let me get this straight

If Obama gets tough on screening trying to prevent a terrorist from blowing up a plane.
There is outrage!

If Obama doesn't act on intel & doesnt step it up when machines are available & a plane blows up.
There will be outrage!

Nice.

Be honest you're gonna bitch either way!

Also everyone complaining about the current methods please elaborate on exactly how you would prevent the following:
(Remember unlike Israel the US has dozens and dozens of major large airports and 40,000 flights a day)

PETN, or pentaerythritol tetranitrate, presents some vexing problems for security experts. A powder about the consistency of fine popcorn salt, it will not trigger an alarm on a metal detector. Because of its more stable molecules, PETN gives off less vapor, making it more difficult to detect by bomb-sniffing dogs and the trace swabs used by the Transportation Security Administration.

PETN's stability makes it easy to hide and easily transformed. When mixed with rubber cement or putty, it becomes a rudimentary plastic explosive, a baseball-sized amount can blow a hole in an airplane fuselage.

"PETN is hard to detect and lends itself to being concealed," said an intelligence official who was not authorized to speak on the record. "It packs a punch."

One way to detect PETN is through its detonator, which typically uses materials that are easier to trace. Reid's shoe bomb combined PETN with a volatile explosive accelerant called TATP that can be made from dime-store nail polish and hydrogen peroxide. The Yemen printer cartridge bombs placed the PETN around small homemade blasting caps containing the chemical lead azide.

The fact that PETN has been the common denominator in all of the bombs is a major reason why the TSA is unlikely to yield substantially in its search for practical ways to prevent the deadly powder from making it aboard a plane.

[sirs]

To answer your question about outrage at Obama, that's almost a given, given his track record to date, but your continued focus on the machines is what's clouding your judgement and assault on the 4th amendment.  There are other, far more effective and less intrusive means of "cracking down"  We're talking about innocent civilian travelers here.  Not captured enemy combatants

To answer your question about a hypothetical, you focus your attention on the person who's powder they're carrying, not merely technology.  You ask them about where they're going, where they've been.  You check their passports and you verify their story.  If they don't cooperate, then by all means, grope away.  People are waiting in line, so what's a a few minutes out of each person's waiting, to answer some simple questions.  Innocent until Proven Guilty.  A Constitutional right to unlawful searches and seizures

And no one is claiming someone making minimum wage has a right to fly for free.  You have a right to travel.  What you're paying for is the advantage to a very fast "car & driver".  Should we now expect every chaffeur to manhandle every person that gets in their limo?  Just to make sure?

[sirs]

Pretty much the only way you get patted down is rufuse the body scan.  Flying is not a right, it is a choice.  You dont like the rules....ride the freaking bus!

Next step for tight security could be trains, boats, metro

The next step in tightened security could be on U.S. public transportation, trains and boats.

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano says terrorists will continue to look for U.S. vulnerabilities, making tighter security standards necessary.

?[Terrorists] are going to continue to probe the system and try to find a way through,? Napolitano said in an interview that aired Monday night on "Charlie Rose."

?I think the tighter we get on aviation, we have to also be thinking now about going on to mass transit or to trains or maritime. So, what do we need to be doing to strengthen our protections there??

Napolitano?s comments, made a day before one of the nation?s busiest travel days, come in the wake of a public outcry over newly implemented airport screening measures that have been criticized for being too invasive.

The secretary has defended the new screening methods, which include advanced imaging systems and pat-downs, as necessary to stopping terrorists. During the interview with Rose, Napolitano said her agency is now looking into ways to make other popular means of travel safer for passengers and commuters.

Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.), chairman of the Senate Homeland Security Committee, introduced legislation this past September that would authorize testing of body scanners at some federal buildings.

Napolitano?s comments were in response to the question: ?What will they [terrorists] be thinking in the future?? She gave no details about how soon the public could see changes in security or about what additional safety measures the DHS was entertaining.

The recently implemented airport screening methods have made John Pistole, who heads the Transportation Security Administration (TSA), the focus of growing public ire.

On Monday, Pistole said he understood peoples? privacy concerns and that the TSA would consider modifying its screening policies to make them ?as minimally invasive as possible,? but he indicated  the advanced-imaging body scans and pat-down methods would remain in place in the short term, including during the high-volume Thanksgiving period of travel.

Lawmakers from both parties have received hundreds of complaints about the new methods ? some have likened the pat-downs to groping ? and have called on Pistole to address the privacy concerns of their constituents, who were not informed about changes ahead of time.

Many lawmakers say the public should have been informed before the pat-downs and body-imaging techniques were put into practice. As a result, any move to implement new security screening measures for rail or water passengers is likely to be met with tough levels of scrutiny from lawmakers.

Pistole, who spent 26 years with the FBI, told reporters Monday that he rejected the advice of media aides who advised him to publicize the revised security measures before they took effect. Terrorist groups have been known to study the TSA?s screening methods in an attempt to circumvent them, he said.

Napolitano said she hoped the U.S. could get to a place in the future where Americans would not have to be as guarded against terrorist attacks as they are and that she was actively promoting research into the psychology of how a terrorist becomes radicalized.

?The long-term [question] is, how do we get out of this having to have an ever-increasing security apparatus because of terrorists and a terrorist attack?? she said. ?I think having a better understanding of what causes someone to become a terrorist will be helpful."

DHS and intelligence officials are not as far along in understanding that process as they would like, Napolitano said, adding that until that goal is reached, steps need to be put in place to ensure the public?s safety.

?We don?t know much,? she said. ?If you were to try and devise a template about what connects this terrorist to this terrorist and how they were raised and what schools they went to and their socioeconomic status, or this or that, it?s all over the map.

?I think there?s some important work that?s being done on that but ? the Secretary of Homeland Security cannot wait for that.?


Buses you say?

[sirs]

No one CARES about your junk. It is not special to any TSA inspectors who have just seen 300 others just like it.

[Christians4LessGvt]

There are other, far more effective and less intrusive means of "cracking down"

Like what? Be specific on how you are going to prevent this "easy to conceal",
not detectable by metal detecter substance? How?
Do you know the disaster consequences if you fail?

To answer your question about a hypothetical,
you focus your attention on the person who's powder
they're carrying, not merely technology.  

Law enforcement and preventing terrorists from blowing up SIR's family is "hypothetical"
We are at war...do you not get that?
Terror prevention is all "hypothetical" but that makes it no less dangerous.
What are you talking about "powder"....you lost me?

Terrorist have the undectable explosives in their underwear....
tell me how your "interview method" is better at discovery that a scan or
if someone refuses the easy scan...the search?

You ask them about where they're going, where they've been.  
You check their passports and you verify their story.  If they don't
cooperate, then by all means, grope away.  People are waiting in line,
so what's a a few minutes out of each person's waiting, to answer some
simple questions.  

You've got to be kidding?
So you are not going to be bitching if Obama orders every airline passenger "interviewed"
and asked questions and if they dont answer.
Can you imagine the lines at airports with a question/answer session with every passenger?
 "grope away"?....what happened to the "rights" you were screaming about?

Innocent until Proven Guilty.  A Constitutional right to unlawful searches and seizures

The searches are not unlawful. Sometimes police officers when they pull someone over
frisk them and that citizen is still "Innocent until Proven Guilty".

You have a right to travel.  What you're paying for is the advantage to a very fast "car & driver".
 Should we now expect every chaffeur to manhandle every person that gets in their limo?  Just to make sure?

Every person is being "manhandled" by the TSA?
Almost no one is being man-handled by the TSA.
If that is found there should be consequences.
You try to make 40,000 flights a day safe and see if your record of customer happiness is 100%

SIRS...what is soooooo bad about walking thru a scannner?

[sirs]

There are other, far more effective and less intrusive means of "cracking down"

Like what? Be specific on how you are going to prevent this "easy to conceal"

I JUST DID.  Scroll above.  You can not lay all your bets on technonology.  The Terrorists will find a way.  You don't throw out the Constitution, in the mean time

Do you know the disaster consequences if you fail?

Do you know the Constitutional consequences if we simply ignore it?

Law enforcement and preventing terrorists from blowing up SIR's family is "hypothetical"
We are at war...do not get that?

I get it....I also get the Constitution.  I also get the 4th amendment.  Did you forget that?  We are at war with Islamic Terrorists.....NOT the innocent american populace.  Focus

SIRS...what is soooooo bad about walking thru a scannner?

Follow the money.  Tax dollars, in particular

[sirs]

Airport "Security"?

No country has better airport security than Israel-- and no country needs it more, since Israel is the most hated target of Islamic extremist terrorists. Yet, somehow, Israeli airport security people don't have to strip passengers naked electronically or have strangers feeling their private parts.

Does anyone seriously believe that we have better airport security than Israel? Is our security record better than theirs?

"Security" may be the excuse being offered for the outrageous things being done to American air travelers, but the heavy-handed arrogance and contempt for ordinary people that is the hallmark of this administration in other areas is all too painfully apparent in these new and invasive airport procedures.

Can you remember a time when a Cabinet member in a free America boasted of having his "foot on the neck" of some business or when the President of the United States threatened on television to put his foot on another part of some citizens' anatomy?

Yet this and more has happened in the current administration, which is not yet two years old. One Cabinet member warned that there would be "zero tolerance" for "misinformation" when an insurance company said the obvious, that the mandates of ObamaCare would raise costs and therefore raise premiums. Zero tolerance for exercising the First Amendment right of free speech?

More than two centuries ago, Edmund Burke warned about the dangers of new people with new power. This administration, only halfway through its term, has demonstrated that in many ways.

What other administration has had an Attorney General call the American People "cowards"? And refuse to call terrorists Islamic?
What other administration has had a Secretary of Homeland Security warn law enforcement officials across the country of security threats from people who are anti-abortion, for federalism or are returning military veterans?

If anything good comes out of the airport "security" outrages, it may be in opening the eyes of more people to the utter contempt that this administration has for the American people.

Those who made excuses for all of candidate Barack Obama's long years of alliances with people who expressed their contempt for this country, and when as president he appointed people with a record of antipathy to American interests and values, may finally get it when they feel some stranger's hand in their crotch.

As for the excuse of "security," this is one of the least security-minded administrations we have had. When hundreds of illegal immigrants from terrorist-sponsoring countries were captured crossing the border from Mexico-- and then released on their own recognizance within the United States, that tells you all you need to know about this administration's concern for security.

When captured terrorists who are not covered by either the Geneva Convention or the Constitution of the United States are nevertheless put on trial in American civilian courts by the Obama Justice Department, that too tells you all you need to know about how concerned they are about national security.

The rules of criminal justice in American courts were not designed for trying terrorists. For one thing, revealing the evidence against them can reveal how our intelligence services got wind of them in the first place, and thereby endanger the lives of people who helped us nab them.

Not a lot of people in other countries, or perhaps even in this country, are going to help us stop terrorists if their role is revealed and their families are exposed to revenge by the terrorists' bloodthirsty comrades.

What do the Israeli airport security people do that American airport security do not do? They profile. They question some individuals for more than half an hour, open up all their luggage and spread the contents on the counter-- and they let others go through with scarcely a word. And it works.

Meanwhile, this administration is so hung up on political correctness that they have turned "profiling" into a bugaboo. They would rather have electronic scanners look under the clothes of nuns than to detain a Jihadist imam for some questioning.

Will America be undermined from within by an administration obsessed with political correctness and intoxicated with the adolescent thrill of exercising its new-found powers?

Stay tuned

[Amianthus]

Like what? Be specific on how you are going to prevent this "easy to conceal",
not detectable by metal detecter substance? How?
Do you know the disaster consequences if you fail?

If the PETN is hidden in a body cavity, it won't be detected via the backscatter machines, either.

[BT]

Guess that gives new meaning to "blow it out yer ass"

[sirs]

D'oh

[kimba1]

I`m pretty sure you need training to hide anything in your body cavity.

[Xavier_Onassis]

It might be relatively easy to cram explosives up one's butt, but probably both uncomfortable and bothersome. This was the traditional way that prisoners at Devil's Island managed to get money with them into the prison, according to the guy who wrote Pa pillion (there was a film made of this as well, wit Dustin Hoffman and Steve McQueen). They used a small wooden or metal capsule called "UN plan". I guess some really large denomination bills were available in those days. I found it impossible to get more than nine bills in a money belt when I went to Mexico on the train, which had a greater volume than what was described in the novel. That would limit one to $900. But explosives, I do not know how much could fit, or how much one would need to blow up a plane. Not that I have ever had a desire to blow up anything except fireworks.

The difficult part would be to figure out an undetectable way to wire it up to explode. This was the shoe bomber and the underpants bombers' biggest problem, if you recall. You would need wires and something to provide a high voltage spark, I think. Some form of concealable detonator. I bet that hnumpah would know what could be used, but apparently he got bored and went elsewhere.
 

[sirs]

It might be relatively easy to cram explosives up one's butt, but probably both uncomfortable and bothersome.

If its a terrorist bent in killing with the promise of a whole bunch of virgins, after the fact, they're going to manage to put up with the "uncomfortability"

The difficult part would be to figure out an undetectable way to wire it up to explode. This was the shoe bomber and the underpants bombers' biggest problem, if you recall.

Perfect example of a bomber, if folks had managed to connect a few common sense dots, who should have never been allowed to board the plane to begin with.  1 way ticket, no luggage.  IIRC, purchased a flight at the last minute, in cash. 

[Christians4LessGvt]

If the PETN is hidden in a body cavity, it won't be detected via the backscatter machines, either.

Ami wouldn't the detonator and/or pkge holding the PETN show up?

And doesn't the TSA also use other types of imaging technology besides just backscatter?

Also without a detonator doesn't the IslmaoNazi have to rely on a chemical
reaction to generate enough heat to initiate an explosion and with PETN
that is not an easy task.

Of course as with any security measure nothing is 100%, but that doesn't mean
we drop security measures because they are not 100% effective. All of us
rely every single day on safety devices/security devices that protect us
that are not 100% effective.

[Christians4LessGvt]

Next step for tight security could be trains, boats, metro

Of course it will!
Bring it on!
Or no no no...lets wait until they blow up a few trains and kill a bunch of people.
Then all the non-proactive people will be outraged and then they will be like
"well hell yeah...why weren't we doing this already?!"
Just like if Bush right before 9/11 would have shut down airports
People would have been OUTRAGED!
"What the hell is Bush doing?!"
"Bush is over-reacting"
"Fly planes into buildings?...hell thats never happened...Bush is an idiot"
Some people can only have 20/20 in hindsight.
They need to be beat over the head to do the right thing.
Problem is IslamoNazis are going to do it.
Just sad somebody's gotta die to get'em to act.