TSA --> TYJA?

[kimba1]

opps I just thought a possible ignitor, those chemical hand warmer can be made to give high heat.but it has iron in it,not sure if that can be sneaked in.

[sirs]

Of course as with any security measure nothing is 100%, but that doesn't mean
we drop security measures because they are not 100% effective.

Nor does it we mean we trample on the Constitution, in the name of "security"

[Christians4LessGvt]

Nor does it we mean we trample on the Constitution, in the name of "security"

There is no trampling of the Constitution.
People are free to choose to purchase airline tickets or not.
No one is forcing anyone to fly.
In fact I heard travel by car is up because of airport congestion.
People are freely choosing to avoid the hassle if that's what they want to do.
It is not a Constitutional Right to be able to refuse scanning, refuse searches & board an airplane.
There is no Constitutional Right to endanger others.
I dont want people not scanned, not searched boarding my airplane.

[sirs]

Nor does it we mean we trample on the Constitution, in the name of "security"

There is no trampling of the Constitution.

4th amendment  It specifically guards against unreasonable searches and seizures

People are free to choose to purchase airline tickets or not.

Absolutely

No one is forcing anyone to fly.

Absolutely

There is no Constitutional Right to endanger others.

What??  Who's claiming that there is??

I dont want people not scanned, not searched boarding my airplane.

Your apparent limits to how far you want to support the constitution is duely noted.  If it has the potential to impact you, then we can "defer the 4th amendment"?  So, if Xo feels threatned by anyone that looks shady, we should "defer the 2nd amendment"?  If Obama is threated by Fox News, we should defer the 1st?

Remember Cu4, we're talking about run of the mill Americans, merely traveling, and purchasing the opportunity to do it faster than if they were to drive.  95+% of them largely innocent of anything outside of speeding tickets and littering.  What possible grounds can you justify such an unconstitutional searching of these people, who have done nothing to you, or anyone else?  To make you "feel safer".  I'm sure there are many people who would "feel safer" if we banned all firearms.  Is that the avenue you wish to drive down?

[Xavier_Onassis]

our apparent limits to how far you want to support the constitution is duely noted.  If it has the potential to impact you, then we can "defer the 4th amendment"?  So, if Xo feels threatned by anyone that looks shady, we should "defer the 2nd amendment"?  If Obama is threated by Fox News, we should defer the 1st?
===========================================

This is just a stupid "slippery slope" argument. The first and second amendments are not the issue here and you know it.

I observe that on the news tonight. apparently most people agreed with me and just walked through the scanners. Most said it was worth the effort to be safe.

[Christians4LessGvt]

"Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution]4th amendment
It specifically guards against unreasonable searches and seizures

And this is not an "unreasonable search".

Your apparent limits to how far you want to support the constitution is duely noted.  
If it has the potential to impact you, then we can "defer the 4th amendment"?  
So, if Xo feels threatned by anyone that looks shady, we should "defer the 2nd amendment"?  
If Obama is threated by Fox News, we should defer the 1st?

We are not deferring anything, because these searches are not unreasonable
and they are constitutional.

What possible grounds can you justify such an unconstitutional
searching of these people, who have done nothing to you, or anyone else?  

It is not "unconstitutional searching".
Because you keep repeating it is doesn't make it so.
No final court ruling has found these searches unconstitutional.
And if and when this were ever to be litigated, in the end these searches will not be found unconstitutional.

Btw...SIRS do you think that given the chance, the people who lost their lives on Sept. 11 would have cried foul over
these pat-downs and scans if it meant saving their lives and being here today?

[sirs]

"Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution]4th amendment
It specifically guards against unreasonable searches and seizures

And this is not an "unreasonable search".

And there's the crux.  You realize what you're attempting to rationalize here, don't you?  In your eyes, everyone is guilty of being a terrorist.  Searching a person is based on a presumption that the person is guilty of something.  Without that presumption, the search, as currently being conducted by the TSA, is completely unreasonable

Btw...SIRS do you think that given the chance, the people who lost their lives on Sept. 11 would have cried foul over
these pat-downs and scans if it meant saving their lives and being here today?

For those who wholly supported the Constitution and what it means in freedom to this country, yea, they would.  Anti-gun folks can make the same arguement about the 2nd amendment, you're making about the 4th. ... "Cu4, do you think given the chance, the people who lost lives to gun violence, would have cried foul over the repeal of the 2nd amendment, if it meant saving their lives and being here today?"

[kimba1]

if you step back the subject of the constitution is very much subjective
9-11 also effects the 1st amendment but due to the fact it`s porn very people will care.
not exactly national security,but resources are used to shut down sites and investigate them. ironicly such effort is not even needed since the economy and technology has done more harm to the industry than the government ever has.

[sirs]

With all due respect Kimba.  The Constitution is pretty clear.  The Bill of Rights even clearer, that much more.  Limitations of what the Federal Government can impose on its populace, without some due precess or amending procedure

[kimba1]

my bad

the constituation is clear, but how people go about it is another matter.

I wonder in 40 years will people think of today the sameway as the 50`s

a golden time or terrible time.

maccarthy was right, but he methods really should be questioned. I don`t recall anybody saying his methods worked

[sirs]

I think people of today, think differently than they did 5years ago.  People's perceptions and thought processes evolve, and there's no denying that.  

Let me put it this way, as it relates to the Constitution.  Yes, we have more to fear from isolated terrorist attacks.  Yes, we have more to fear from islamic radicals intent on murdering anyone that doesn't agree to their version of Islam.  That's evolved over the last 2 decades, punctuated by the events of 911

However, the Constitution is what sets this country apart, from nearly the rest of the globe.  It's a blueprint, literally a rulebook.  Yet within the rulebook is a means to modify the rules, if evolved will wishes it.  When you play poker, does 1 of those nights 2 pair beat a straight flush?  Of course not, that would be changing the rules.  Now, if everyone gets together and decides to change the rules as a group, fine.  But intil then, the 4th amendment still protects this country's citizens from unreasonable search and seizures.  

And though some may "feel safer' with the added level of groping & sexual harrasment at the hands of the TSA, or pornagraphic images taken and to be oodled by all its members, minus a presumption that every passenger is a suspected terrorist, it is wholly unreasonable for the TSA to be conducting their current level of searches at the mandate of the Federal Government

[Christians4LessGvt]

Kimba.... SIRS is talking nonsense.
No final court finding has found the airport screening and searches unconstitutional
NONE, NADA, ZERO......those are the facts.
He can keep whistling past the cemetery if he so chooses.
But reality is what it is....it is constitutional and it is not unreasonable.

[Christians4LessGvt]

You realize what you're attempting to rationalize here, don't you?

Yeah facts.

In your eyes, everyone is guilty of being a terrorist. 

No myself and the courts do not.

Searching a person is based on a presumption that the person is guilty of something. 
Without that presumption, the search, as currently being conducted by the TSA, is completely unreasonable

Obviously the courts agree with me and not you.
The courts have found they are not unreasonable and we live by the rule of law....
Talk's cheap...prove it in court.

Anti-gun folks can make the same argument about the 2nd amendment, you're making about the 4th. ...
"Cu4, do you think given the chance, the people who lost lives to gun violence, would have cried foul over
the repeal of the 2nd amendment, if it meant saving their lives and being here today?

The  problem with your analogy is that it makes no sense because no one is calling for "repealing the 4th Amendment"
and the Courts are solidly behind the notion that the searches/screens do not violate the 4th Amendment.
A more proper analogy might have been "would people killed by machine gun fire in gang wars may have
supported some limits on the 2nd Amendment?" like banning machine guns? Sirs you do support limiting the
2nd Amendment where citizens can not own/carry machine guns?

[sirs]

Kimba.... SIRS is talking nonsense.

Wow...didn't realize support of the Constitution is now support of nonsense.  Live & learn

But reality is what it is....it is constitutional and it is not unreasonable.

Based on................?  Please elaborate how

Anti-gun folks can make the same argument about the 2nd amendment, you're making about the 4th. ...
"Cu4, do you think given the chance, the people who lost lives to gun violence, would have cried foul over
the repeal of the 2nd amendment, if it meant saving their lives and being here today?

The  problem with your analogy is that it makes no sense because no one is calling for "repealing the 4th Amendment"

No, merely the trampling of it, while trying to ignore the process of doing so.  It's the same end result, however.  Making you "feel safer" on a flight, isn't a constitutional right, either

[kimba1]

actually sirs has taught me a very very valuable lesson. He taught to try to listen to several opinions. in many thing I don`t agree with him but his response to me is more valuable than my opinion. I have alot to learn  him still. I will never ignore his response. sirs you give great answers. I mean that