Author Topic: Is It Time to Rethink Iraq?  (Read 1781 times)

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domer

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Is It Time to Rethink Iraq?
« on: September 28, 2006, 02:11:57 PM »
The logical projections of the two parties' visions for the War in Iraq and the War on Terror have not been stated by the principals themselves. For the Republicans, in all honesty on present facts, this is the make-or-break campaign of the entire War on Terror. Merely stating the truism that defeat in Iraq would embolden the terrorist movement and provide a launching ground for attacks elsewhere cinches the argument from their perspective. Regardless of that war's genesis as a colossal mistake, has it now transformed into a truly do-or-die situation, as the Republicans are quick to believe, apparently even now? Are we not to expect more of the same in Iraq short of another true strongman taking the helm? That is, can we honestly expect the jihadists to EVER concede that battle, and the sectarians ever to give up their rancor? Despite all the talk about victory (and exactly what would that be?), the firm reality seems to be that without the advent of authoritarian rule or a bloody and costly purgation and catharsis, the situation in Iraq will persist as a nightmare.

All this focus on Iraq by the Republicans may lose the forest for the trees in the overall struggle against radical Islam. Largely, as in any insurgency or guerilla war, the object is to literally win hearts and minds, thereby bleeding away the antagonist's source of support and even justification. On that front the Bush Administration has a piss-poor record, not only in Iraq, obviously, but across the whole Muslim world.

Tired like of wasted lives, the Democrats toy with the idea of a strategic defeat in this one battle, but don't call it that. Perhaps afraid to speak bluntly for fear of the political fallout (even good ideas don't "sell" in the political arena if the ground has not been prepared and the time is not right), the Democrats do not cast their withdrawal proposals against the backdrop of a carefully articulated plan (campaign) to win the overall war through every means possible, an all-out offensive in diplomatic, political, social, religious, cultural and military terms to win what is, as much as anything, an ideological conflict. Democrats don't paint us a picture of what happens if we leave Iraq according to their timetable. Will there be a bloodbath? Will the "free" Iraqis inevitably lose the struggle in short order? Does either of those consequences matter? Importantly, are they foregone conclusions? Indeed, does any of that matter in the overall war? Is there a way to win without Iraq? Isn't Iraqi strife inevitable no matter what we do?

I wonder whether Iraq could be any worse off in the wake of a US withdrawal. As I say, things are nightmarish now. And importantly, in supposedly democratic Iraq, a large majority of citizens themselves call for our withdrawal. Even though the government is slow to react to that popular will, it may stand as a lighthouse to guide us out of this mess.

Plane

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Re: Is It Time to Rethink Iraq?
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2006, 12:16:09 AM »
When asked to vote a majority of Iriquis voted and elected a constitutional convention then voted in a parlementary body of representatives and a president.


So why is there fighting?


If Americans are so unpopular you would think that the Jhadists would already be elected.


The fighters we are fighting are not interested in the will of the people as we are , they have religious reasons to fight and no amount of voteing will make a diffrence to them.

Michael Tee

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Re: Is It Time to Rethink Iraq?
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2006, 01:17:55 AM »
<<The fighters we are fighting are not interested in the will of the people as we are , they have religious reasons to fight and no amount of voteing will make a diffrence to them.>>

Did you ever stop to think that maybe democracy can't work if a certain percentage of the country's population really don't want it to work?  And that that percentage of the recalcitrant needn't be anywhere near 50%?

Suppose, for the sake of argument, you had a country where 98% of the population were religion A and 2% religion B.  Say the A side wanted democracy (because they were confident of winning every election) and the B side did not.  Probably at 2% the B side won't have much of an effect on anything and democracy will work because 98% of the people want it to work.  But at 60% pro-democracy and 40% against, either democracy is not gonna work or the price of making it work by killing off the 40% until there's not enough of them left to object, is just not worth it.

I think that even if the majority of Iraqis really want democracy, it does not matter, because their majority just isn't big enough.   It's not gonna work.  They have to find another way.  THEY have to find another way.  Not "the US" has to find another way.  It is not really the US' problem any more.

Plane

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Re: Is It Time to Rethink Iraq?
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2006, 09:46:03 PM »
Well MT , you have described the situation pretty well, though the fighters probly do not amount to 2% the sympathetic who support the fighting might amount to 10%.

But do you think that this 10% being allowed to rule because they are very violent would be justice or injustice?


We may wind up failing if the 90% turn out to have no force of will and the smaller number have plenty , but signs are good so far.

In spite of dire threats elections have good turnouts.

In spite of bombings at recruiting centers and graduations , American trained police and soldiers are being trained rapidly and have no shortage of volenteers .

Jahadists still resort to suicide bombing , like the Kamakazi a tecnique more frighting than effective and a sign of severe desparation .

Jahadists complain that 4000 imported fighters have died (very likely a low estimate) if the deaths continue at this rate we will very likely make a dent in them that they will not recover from.


During WWI there was a German Plan for Verdun , they were going to mass so much artillery against the fortress that the French would die there at about the same rate as they could be reinforced , produceing a conveyor belt for getting rid of the French Army.

It kinda worked , but the Germans took Verdun and suffered the same sort of effect as long as they stayed.

As long as we are killing Al Quieda at a high rate time is on our side , we need to take care that this continues as it is and does not turn into a reversal.