Author Topic: Dream Act  (Read 18378 times)

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BT

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Dream Act
« on: December 24, 2010, 08:11:07 PM »
For those members who were against it, please tell me in your own words your reasons for objection.


sirs

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Re: Dream Act
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2010, 09:51:14 PM »
just to start:
A) against rewarding criminal behavior
B) wording of bill too broad, too vague....appears to allow folks well into their 30's, if not older vs the rhetorical inferrence that its targeted to teens and young adults who just happen to be here illegally
C) provides incentive for further criminal activity, perpetuating the ongoing problem of illegal immigration

Many more reasons, but that's for starters
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Dream Act
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2010, 10:22:07 PM »
just to start:
A) against rewarding criminal behavior
B) wording of bill too broad, too vague....appears to allow folks well into their 30's, if not older vs the rhetorical inferrence that its targeted to teens and young adults who just happen to be here illegally
C) provides incentive for further criminal activity, perpetuating the ongoing problem of illegal immigration

Many more reasons, but that's for starters

OK Fair enough.

How would you rewrite the bill to make it more palatable?

sirs

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Re: Dream Act
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2010, 05:13:29 AM »
Alas...that's the problem here...I'm not looking or advocating a compromise on this issue.  I don't see any (+) out of rewarding criminal conduct, thus my rewrite would be an all together scrapping of the bill
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Dream Act
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2010, 06:13:12 AM »
Alas...that's the problem here...I'm not looking or advocating a compromise on this issue.  I don't see any (+) out of rewarding criminal conduct, thus my rewrite would be an all together scrapping of the bill

So blocking this segment of immigration reform is the highest priority in your opinion for the conservative agenda?

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Dream Act
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2010, 10:40:37 AM »
How would you rewrite the bill to make it more palatable?

I do not support the bill, but a bill of this importance should not be
attached to a defesne appropriations bill, it should be debated on its own.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Dream Act
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2010, 10:47:45 AM »
So blocking this segment of immigration reform is the highest priority in your opinion for the conservative agenda?

BT....how and who is going to pay for these millions of college educations for illegal non-US Citizens?
Since money grows on trees & we already pay for these illegal non-American's primary education & healthcare...why not throw college in too?
Hey maybe next we can provide free internet, free cars, and maybe a McMansion too?
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Kramer

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Re: Dream Act
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2010, 12:07:11 PM »
political pandering makes me sick.

BT

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Re: Dream Act
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2010, 12:14:06 PM »
How would you rewrite the bill to make it more palatable?

I do not support the bill, but a bill of this importance should not be
attached to a defesne appropriations bill, it should be debated on its own.

I agree the bill should not have been hidden in the defense appropriations bill.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Dream Act
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2010, 12:18:48 PM »
All bills are merged in this way. It may not be fair, but it has been the way every Congress has acted since the beginning, and there is nothing that citizens are going to do to make them stop.

It would be an ideal issue for the teabaggers, but they are too dense to even recognize this. They think they can balance the budget by ending foreign aid to Guam.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: Dream Act
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2010, 12:22:54 PM »
So blocking this segment of immigration reform is the highest priority in your opinion for the conservative agenda?

BT....how and who is going to pay for these millions of college educations for illegal non-US Citizens?
Since money grows on trees & we already pay for these illegal non-American's primary education & healthcare...why not throw college in too?
Hey maybe next we can provide free internet, free cars, and maybe a McMansion too?

2010

The 111th Congress continued to consider the DREAM Act bill throughout 2010. S.3992, a new version of the DREAM Act, includes numerous changes to address concerns raised about the bill. Among other things, S. 3992:

   1. Does not repeal the ban on in-state tuition for illegal immigrants. The DREAM Act does not force states to charge in-state tuition rates for illegal immigrants. The DREAM Act does not allow illegal immigrants to gain access to Federal Pell Grants and other financial aid.

   1. Lowers the age cap for eligibility for the DREAM Act to 29 on the date of enactment. Additionally, in order to be eligible, individuals still must have come to the U.S. as a child (15 or under), graduated from a U.S. High School (or received a GED from a U.S. institution) and be a long-term resident (at least 5 years). An earlier version of the DREAM Act (S. 1545 in the 108th Congress), authored by Republican Senator Orrin Hatch and cosponsored by Senator John McCain, did not include any age cap. This bill was approved by the Republican-controlled Senate Judiciary Committee on a 16-3 vote.
   2. Does not grant legal immigrant status to anyone for at least 2 years. Previous versions of the DREAM Act would have immediately granted legal immigrant status to individuals who met the bill?s requirements. Under S. 3992, an individual could obtain ?conditional nonimmigrant? status if he proves that he meets the age (currently 29 or under and arrived in the U.S. at 15 or under) and residency requirements (5 years or more) and:
         1. Has graduated from an American high school or obtained a GED;
         2. Has been a person of ?good moral character,? as determined by the Department of Homeland Security, from the date the individual initially entered the U.S. (previous versions of the DREAM Act only required an individual to be a person of good moral character from the date of the bill?s enactment);
         3. Submits biometric information;
         4. Undergoes security and law-enforcement background checks;
         5. Undergoes a medical examination; and
         6. Registers for the Selective Service.
   3. Further limits eligibility for conditional nonimmigrant status by specifically excluding anyone who:
         1. Has committed one felony or three misdemeanors;
         2. Is likely to become a public charge;
         3. Has engaged in voter fraud or unlawful voting;
         4. Has committed marriage fraud;
         5. Has abused a student visa;
         6. Has engaged in persecution; or
         7. Poses a public health risk.
   4. Gives a conditional non-immigrant the chance to earn legal immigrant status only after 2 years and only if he meets the DREAM Act?s college or military service requirements, and other requirements, e.g., pays back taxes and demonstrates the ability to read, write, and speak English and demonstrates knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of the history, principles, and form of government of the United States.
   5. Further limits "chain migration." DREAM Act individuals would have very limited ability to sponsor family members for U.S. citizenship. They could never sponsor extended family members and they could not begin sponsoring parents or siblings for at least 12 years. Parents and siblings who entered the U.S. illegally would have to leave the country for ten years before they could gain legal status and the visa backlog for siblings is decades long.
   6. Specifically excludes non-immigrants from the health insurance exchanges created by the Affordable Care Act. Conditional non-immigrants also would be ineligible for Medicaid, Food Stamps and other entitlement programs.
   7. Establishes a one-year application deadline. An individual would be required to apply for conditional nonimmigrant status within one year of obtaining a high school degree or GED, being admitted to college, or the bill?s date of enactment.
   8. Requires anyone applying for the DREAM Act to show that he is likely to qualify in order to receive a stay of deportation while his application is pending. The DREAM Act is not a safe harbor from deportation.
   9. Requires the Department of Homeland Security to provide information from an individual?s DREAM Act application to any federal, state, tribal, or local law enforcement agency, or intelligence or national security agency in any criminal investigation or prosecution or for homeland security or national security purposes.
  10. Places the burden of proof on a DREAM Act applicant. An individual would be required to demonstrate eligibility for the DREAM Act by a preponderance of the evidence.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DREAM_Act#Description

bsb

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Re: Dream Act
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2010, 12:49:10 PM »
(1) IN GENERAL- Notwithstanding any other provision of law and except as otherwise provided in this Act, the Secretary of Homeland Security may cancel removal of, and adjust to the status of an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence, subject to the conditional basis described in section 5, an alien who is inadmissible or deportable from the United States, if the alien demonstrates that--
(A) the alien has been physically present in the United States for a continuous period of not less than 5 years immediately preceding the date of enactment of this Act, and had not yet reached the age of 16 years at the time of initial entry;
(B) the alien has been a person of good moral character since the time of application;
(C) the alien--
(i) is not inadmissible under paragraph (2), (3), (6)(E), or (10)(C) of section 212(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1182(a)); and
(ii) is not deportable under paragraph (1)(E), (2), or (4) of section 237(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1227(a));
(D) the alien, at the time of application, has been admitted to an institution of higher education in the United States, or has earned a high school diploma or obtained a general education development certificate in the United States;
(E) the alien has never been under a final administrative or judicial order of exclusion, deportation, or removal, unless the alien--
(i) has remained in the United States under color of law after such order was issued; or
(ii) received the order before attaining the age of 16 years; and
(F) the alien had not yet reached the age of 35 years on the date of the enactment of this Act.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?c111:./temp/~c111axjQet

Lawbreakers? We want to send the message around the world that we feel that kids who have been here for 5 years and were under the age of 16 when they entered this country are criminals and should not be given a chance to improve their lot via a college educatin under certain conditions?

As I said before, who are the real Americans here?

bsb

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Dream Act
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2010, 12:54:44 PM »
OK BT it says what it says....so my same question.

Who is going to pay for all these college educations for these
poor illegal non-US citizens? Are the poor suddenly going to win the lottery?

Because of costs and other factors the vast majority of
these illegal non-US citizens will enroll in community
college aka as Jr Colleges. This will have enormous
costs to the taxpayers.

Community colleges are already hard hit by the drop
in tax revenue caused by the current recession and
now the (Bad) Dream Act wants to flood those
schools with poor illegal non-US citizens.

Enrollment and funding are limited at public institutions,
Passing the (Bad) Dream Act will require some combination
of tuition increases, tax increases to expand enrollment,
or a reduction in spaces available for legal American citizens
at these schools.

Lawmakers and voters need to consider the strains the (Bad) Dream Act
will create and the impact of adding all these new students to state
universities and community colleges....it will no doubt have an effect on
the educational opportunities available to legal American citizens.

Also the (Bad) Dream Act is basically just a fraud because it only requires
two years of college.....no degree is necessary.


"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

BT

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Re: Dream Act
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2010, 01:32:41 PM »
Quote
Who is going to pay for all these college educations for these
poor illegal non-US citizens? Are the poor suddenly going to win the lottery?

According to the law as written, those qualifying offspring of illegals are eligible for student loans and work study programs. They are not eligible for grants, though i would also guess that they might be eligible for merit scholarships.

Quote
Community colleges are already hard hit by the drop
in tax revenue caused by the current recession and
now the (Bad) Dream Act wants to flood those
schools with poor illegal non-US citizens.

Enrollment and funding are limited at public institutions,
Passing the (Bad) Dream Act will require some combination
of tuition increases, tax increases to expand enrollment,
or a reduction in spaces available for legal American citizens
at these schools.

Legal americans seem to have decided that community colleges are a good investment. I'm guessing they can decide they aren't in the future.

As long as a quota system isn't used to fill available slots, i don't see a problem with accepting dream act students if they show more merit than us born students. Competition is good.

Quote
Lawmakers and voters need to consider the strains the (Bad) Dream Act
will create and the impact of adding all these new students to state
universities and community colleges....it will no doubt have an effect on
the educational opportunities available to legal American citizens.

See above.


Quote
Also the (Bad) Dream Act is basically just a fraud because it only requires
two years of college.....no degree is necessary.

I'd be willing to require a degree (associates or otherwise) or a certificate of completion for technical studies.


Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Dream Act
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2010, 02:07:38 PM »

offspring of illegals are eligible for student loans and work study programs.

Yeah and how is that program working out for taxpayers?
And now you appear to be supportive of adding millions more to this scam.
Americans now owe more on their student loans than they do on their credit cards or
in the neighborhood approaching $1 trillion. Student loan defaults have doubled in the
last five years, according to the U.S. Department of Education, and are now approaching
nearly a quarter-million defaults a year. The government is lending most of the money,
so every default leaves the taxpayers on the hook. Actually the student loan programs
could end up being even a bigger disaster than the home loan crisis. If this bubble bursts,
and it will......who will pay the price?

As long as a quota system isn't used to fill available slots, i don't see a problem with accepting dream
act students if they show more merit than us born students. Competition is good.


Well thats where you and I fundamentally disgree.
I think US schools should be for US citizens with some seats made available to legal visiting students.

I'd be willing to require a degree (associates or otherwise) or a certificate of completion for technical studies.

Don't hold your breath.....that is a total pipedream....to this new leftist scam to ripoff American citizens
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987