Author Topic: Allen should 'fess up and be done with it.  (Read 10525 times)

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Plane

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Re: Allen should 'fess up and be done with it.
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2006, 10:12:39 PM »
  The power of a Senator is mostly his 1/100th vote in the American Lawmakeing process.
The rest of his power would be in his ability to persuede and lead his fellow Congressmen and his constituants.

So it is the Congressional Record that will show how Allen has been useing his power.

If it is true that Virginia is loaded with Racists then why should someone who is not racist represent them?


« Last Edit: October 01, 2006, 12:17:39 AM by Plane »

Michael Tee

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Re: Allen should 'fess up and be done with it.
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2006, 10:54:52 PM »
<<If it is true that Virginia is loaded with Racists then why should someone who is not racist represent them?>>

Not only SHOULD they be represented by racists, they WILL be.  That's democracy.

Plane

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Re: Allen should 'fess up and be done with it.
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2006, 11:18:03 PM »
<<If it is true that Virginia is loaded with Racists then why should someone who is not racist represent them?>>

Not only SHOULD they be represented by racists, they WILL be.  That's democracy.


Thank you that is exactly right.


In a Democracy the correct way to effect change is to lead and persuede the people , not to force them to do right till they get used to it.

Amianthus

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Re: Allen should 'fess up and be done with it.
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2006, 10:03:36 AM »
But just as truly, though unofficial structures may sprout up (and be deconstructed) based on these base instincts in the North, the South went ever farther in degree and official sanction of racism, making it the law, and all that implies. This phenomenon gives Southerner racism its particular virulence, historical insult and continuing threat.

Are you trying to imply that racism was not enshrined under law in the North? Because that would be an untrue statement.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Amianthus

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Re: Allen should 'fess up and be done with it.
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2006, 10:06:24 AM »
It would be foolish, of course, to believe that racism or general bigotry based on superficial reasons isn't possible anywhere. Yet, as Domer points out there was an official and institutional racist structure in the South that was never fully overthrown as it was in South Africa, but instead phased out.

As there was in the North and the West. I've lived all over the US, seen many parts of it. Found racism everywhere.

And I can tell you from recent experiences - the Southeast is less racist now than the Northeast or upper Midwest.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Allen should 'fess up and be done with it.
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2006, 10:51:23 AM »
<<As there was in the North and the West. I've lived all over the US, seen many parts of it. Found racism everywhere.>>

 Huh?  An OFFICIAL and INSTITUTIONAL racism in the North and West?

Poll taxes?  Literacy tests?  "separate but equal" public schools, public hospitals, railway waiting rooms, drinking fountains, swimming pools, MANDATED BY LAW?

You sure about that?  Where?

Plane

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Re: Allen should 'fess up and be done with it.
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2006, 09:14:16 PM »
<<As there was in the North and the West. I've lived all over the US, seen many parts of it. Found racism everywhere.>>

 Huh?  An OFFICIAL and INSTITUTIONAL racism in the North and West?

Poll taxes?  Literacy tests?  "separate but equal" public schools, public hospitals, railway waiting rooms, drinking fountains, swimming pools, MANDATED BY LAW?

You sure about that?  Where?


Yes all of these things have happened at one time or another in various places and times throughout the North ,West and South  does it make a diffrence what year it happened?

The Abolition movement began in England and grew much faster in the north than the south , but there is no establishment of racism unique to the south.

Have you any opinion about the laws that regulated the Chineese in California ? The South was as free of such anti Chineese laws as Canada was free of anti negro laws.

Amianthus

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Re: Allen should 'fess up and be done with it.
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2006, 12:11:27 AM »
Poll taxes?  Literacy tests?  "separate but equal" public schools, public hospitals, railway waiting rooms, drinking fountains, swimming pools, MANDATED BY LAW?

You sure about that?  Where?

Why don't you tell me where those are in the south nowadays, mandated by law.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Allen should 'fess up and be done with it.
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2006, 06:29:39 PM »
The opinion was advanced in this thread by JS and domer that the reason Southern racism was so virulent was due to the number of years it had been institutionally enforced as law of the land.  JS specifically referred to the racist institutions as part of the law of the land.  ("official and institutional")

Ami then made the preposterous statement "as it was [i.e. as racism was official and institutional] in the North and West."  Which was sure news to me.  So I asked, Where?  When?  - - hoping for some concrete examples.  To which I received the following answers:

Ami:  <<Why don't you tell me where those are in the south nowadays, mandated by law.>>  In other words, implicitly admitting that what he had previously stated as fact might as well have been pure bullshit, since he was unable or unwilling to produce a single example of it.  Asking in return a ridiculous question, "Where is racism NOW mandated in the South?" as if it had ever been in issue that racism was the current law of the land there.

plane:  <<Yes all of these things have happened at one time or another in various places and times throughout the North ,West and South  does it make a diffrence what year it happened?>>

 Still no examples, NONE, and of course - - not that I could expect any examples of something that did not happen and legally could not happen - - but even if a single example could be provided, this is where the questions "where?" and "when?" make a huge difference, because the type of example that would likely be produced would be along the lines of "a municipal ordinance in Duluth Minnesota in 1923 prohibited blacks and whites from sitting in the same rows of movie theatres"  - - or "two black men were lynched by a mob in Joliet Illinois in 1918" - - some totally obscure and statistically insignificant freak event that is meant to balance out 100 years of Southern Jim Crow laws, official disenfranchisement, lynching and state terrorism.

This is where I find debating with some of the conservatives in this group a totally surrealistic experience - - "facts" are created out of whole cloth:  "the North and West were just as institutionally racist as the South;" "the Treaty of Versailles was never enforced by anyone;" "the women of Iraq have been liberated by the American invasion and can now attend schools and universities freely;"and real facts, which to every single person I know up here are as obvious as the nose on your neighbour's face - - that the Republican hold on the South is due to the Southern Strategy which is a naked appeal to the pervasive racism and bigotry of the region's inhabitants made only after the Democrats had ceased to cater to it - - are strenuously debated, as if fact can be totally erased by the spin.

It gets to the point where I have to ask, are they crazy for advancing this nonsense or am I crazy for debating it with them?  So, enjoy the comfort of your delusions, gentlemen, but I am going to move on to other topics.

Michael Tee

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Re: Allen should 'fess up and be done with it.
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2006, 07:19:05 PM »
<<Have you any opinion about the laws that regulated the Chineese in California ? The South was as free of such anti Chineese laws as Canada was free of anti negro laws.>>

For the record, plane, Canada had very similar laws against Chinese and our federal government recently apologized for them.

If you think that "proves" that Canada was as institutionally and legally racist as the South, then good luck and God bless to ya.

BT

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Re: Allen should 'fess up and be done with it.
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2006, 07:38:59 PM »
B. 1910 Anti-Miscegenation Statutes

Prior to the Civil War, a number of states had statutes prohibiting "intermarriage ... [or] forms of illicit intercourse between the races." Notably, "during the years of Reconstruction in the South ... none of the statutes against miscegenation appear to have been repealed." Even outside the South, only a handful of states repealed their anti- miscegenation statutes in the wake of the Civil War. By 1910, 28 states still had such statutes in effect. Six of these states, all Southern, prohibited racial intermarriage through a constitutional provision.

Although the text of these statutes varied by state, all 28 statutes expressly prohibited intermarriage between whites and blacks. Seven states prohibited marriages between whites and Asians in some form. The universal application to African Americans suggests that these prohibitions primarily sought to prevent white-black intermarriage; legislators may have added Asian Americans by subsequent amendment in a number of cases, rather than including them at the time of original enactment.

Statutes prohibiting white-black intermarriage existed predominantly in the South, where blacks resided in the most significant numbers. Sixteen of the southern states in the belt between Delaware and Texas, with the single exception of the District of Columbia, prohibited black-white miscegenation by statute. This, however, also included states like West Virginia--with a 5.26 percent black population--as well as Oklahoma--with a 8.30 percent black population. Missouri, with its 4.78 percent black population, also imposed such a restriction.

Such statutes were by no means confined to the southern states, where African American numbers were the most significant. Indiana, for example, imposed intermarriage restrictions on its 2.23 percent black population. Nebraska, which contained fewer than 8,000 African Americans amongst its 1.2 million people, merely 0.64 percent maintained an anti-miscegenation provision in 1910. North Dakota, a state that was nearly 99 percent white, imposed a similar restriction. Eight western states with meager African American numbers also enacted prohibitions on intermarriage; the largest black population in the West was in Colorado, whose 11,453 African American residents constituted 1.43 percent of the state's population. The existence of anti-miscegenation statutes in states with such marginal African American populations undermines Stephenson's theory that this phenomenon correlates with multiple races living in "anything like equal numbers." In all, 91.8 percent of the African American population in 1910 resided in states where they were subject to intermarriage restrictions.

The seven states applying their prohibitions to people of Asian descent were Arizona, California, Mississippi, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Utah. The specific language in these statutes referring to Asian people varied from state to state. The statutes of Arizona, California, Mississippi, and Utah all referred to "Mongolians." Nevada and Oregon used the term "Chinese," and Montana specified both "Chinese" and "Japanese" persons. The reasons behind the inconsistent terminology are unclear, although the evidence suggests that the importance of these distinctions should not be exaggerated. First, the history of Asian American jurisprudence suggests a tendency by courts to read inclusive racial categories narrowly, while reading exclusive categories broadly. Secondly, a number of courts refer to dictionary classifications of race, such as "that of Blumenbach, who makes five ... [including] [t]he Mongolian, or yellow race, occupying Tartary, China, Japan, etc. ... and ... the Malay, or brown race, occupying the islands of the Indian Archipelago." Both of these factors suggest that any court interpreting its state's anti-miscegenation statute would be inclined to read the term "Mongolian" broadly.

Although Oregon and Nevada mentioned only "Chinese" in their intermarriage prohibitions, there is no case law from either state to illustrate how broadly the courts interpreted this term. The California case of Roldan v. Los Angeles County, however, offers a helpful analogy. In Roldan, a Filipino litigant successfully utilized Blumenbach's racial terminology to assert that California's prohibition applying to "Mongolians" did not include him, since he was a member of the "Malay" race. The California legislature, however, quickly responded by explicitly adding "member of the Malay race" to the state's anti-miscegenation statute. The holdings in cases like Rice and Hall, and the legislative response to Roldan, emphasize the multiplicity of efforts broadly to prohibit marriage between whites and any group of Asian Americans. Even, however, if such terminology were to be interpreted narrowly as covering only a smaller subset of Asian Americans, it would only further discredit Stephenson's theory that such statutes corresponded to "other race elements exist[ing] in considerable numbers."

Assuming that intermarriage prohibitions applied to the entire Asian American population within the states in which they existed, no state enforcing such a restriction contained an Asian American population even close to the "anything like equal numbers" standard posited by Stephenson. Although Mississippi contained a majority black population, its total Asian American population--to whom it also extended its intermarriage prohibition--amounted to only 259 people, or 0.01 percent of the statewide population. Even in the West, three of the states in which Asian Americans were prohibited from intermarrying with whites--Montana, Arizona, and Utah--contained fewer than one percent Asian Americans. Of the three remaining states, California had the largest Asian American population, over 77,000, but this figure amounted to only 3.26 percent of the total population of California. Thus, while over two-thirds of the national Asian American population were restricted by anti-miscegenation statutes in their home states, in no such state did Asian Americans amount to even 1/30th of the population. Such statistics strongly undermine the assertion that growing Asian American numbers, threatening to disrupt the continuing dominance of the white population, provided the primary motivation for these statutes.

C. 1950 Anti-Miscegenation Statutes

By 1950, whites had secured a majority of the population in each of the forty-eight states and the District of Columbia. The African American population had grown at a rate slightly below the national average, and the Asian American population had grown at a slightly above-average rate. In both cases, however, this growth was accompanied by increasing dissemination throughout the country. African Americans had moved west and now surpassed Asian Americans in every state except Idaho and Utah. Asian American numbers also grew significantly in eastern states with large metropolitan areas, like Illinois, Pennsylvania, and New York. With both groups moving away from their centers of density, the largest concentrations of population were getting smaller. African Americans constituted less than a quarter of the population in most of the southern states, and Asian Americans comprised less than one percent of the population in every state except California, where they now formed only 1.35 percent.

Despite this diffusion of both the black and Asian American populations all 28 existing anti-miscegenation statutes remained in effect, with two additional states adopting such statutes and eight states adding Asian Americans to their prohibitions for the first time. The states that adopted new anti-miscegenation statues after 1910 were Wyoming, in 1913, and South Dakota, around 1919. The Wyoming statute applied to "Negroes, Mulattoes, Mongolians, or Malays," forbidding the marriage of any of these races with "white persons." The new South Dakota statute forbade the marriage of "any person belonging to the African, [K]orean, Malayan, or Mongolian race with any person of the opposite sex belonging to the Caucasian or white race." Both statutes specifically included both African Americans and Asian Americans within their prohibitions, supporting the thesis that such prohibitions never independently targeted Asian Americans.

Examination of the population patterns of these two states during this time directly contradicts Stephenson's population-driven theory. In 1920, the first census year following the adoption of these two statutes, Wyoming's African American population had shrunk by about a thousand people from the previous census, down to only 0.71 percent of the state population. The Asian American population had similarly decreased by nearly 400, down to 0.74 percent of the total. In South Dakota, the numbers had essentially remained stagnant, amounting to combined Asian American and African American numbers of slightly over 1,000 people in a state of well over 600,000, just 0.15 percent of the population. With the addition of these two statutes, a total of thirty states prohibited intermarriage between whites and African Americans in 1950. With the dispersion of the black population, however, the total proportion of African Americans covered by such statutes had decreased--from nearly 92 percent in 1910 to 72.9 percent by 1950.

The six other states adding Asian Americans to their prohibitions for the first time between 1910 and 1950 were: Georgia, Idaho, Maryland, Missouri, Nebraska, and Virginia. Four of these states--Idaho, Maryland, Missouri, and Nebraska--specifically added a reference to Asian Americans in some form in their anti-miscegenation statutes. Nebraska added the categories "Japanese or Chinese" in 1911. However, these two groups combined in the 1910 Census constituted only 702 people in a state of about 1.2 million, amounting to just 0.06 percent. Similarly, Missouri added the term "Mongolians" in 1919, and Idaho did the same in 1921. However, the 1920 Census shows that Missouri's Asian American population actually decreased slightly from the previous census, while the total state population had slightly grown. Asian Americans still totaled less than 0.02 percent. The same Census shows that Idaho's Asian American population had also slightly shrunk since 1910, while the overall state population had grown by almost a third. In 1920, Asian Americans in Idaho comprised less than 0.5 percent of the total population. Maryland, for the first time in 1935, added "member of the Malay race" to its prohibitions. Asian American numbers in Maryland, however, hovered around 500 between 1930 and 1940, constituting about 0.03 percent of the state's population. For reference, Filipinos--a group commonly associated by the courts with the term "Malay"--totaled only 272 in Maryland in 1940. Thus, in none of these states did Asian American numbers approach those of the white population in the period immediately preceding the inclusion of Asian Americans within anti-miscegenation statutes. Contrary to Stephenson's thesis, these numbers remained low and, in some cases, even decreased.

Georgia and Virginia did not include Asian Americans specifically within their anti-miscegenation statutes, but instead declared it illegal for a white person to marry anyone "save" a white person--Georgia in 1927 and Virginia in 1924. In the same session, however, the Georgia legislature defined "white person" as "only persons of the white or Caucasian race, who have no ascertainable trace of either Negro, African, West Indian, Asiatic Indian, Mongolian, Japanese, or Chinese blood in their veins." Therefore, the specific contemplation of Asian Americans in the adoption of the statute is unquestionable. Likewise, the Virginia legislature in the same session adopted legislation authorizing the State Registrar of VitalStatistics to certify the "racial composition of any individual, as Caucasian, Negro, Mongolian, American Indian, Asiatic Indian, Malay, or any mixture thereof, or any other non-Caucasic strains," thereby establishing the specific intent of the legislature that Asian Americans be included with all other "non- Caucasic" groups for legal purposes. Again, the Census numbers depict an unusual background for these legislative actions. Virginia contained only about 335 Asian Americans throughout the 1920s, constituting only 0.01 percent of the state's nearly 2.5 million people. Georgia's Asian American population remained at around 250, not even reaching 0.01 percent of the state's population.

In all, the proliferation of anti-miscegenation statutes targeting Asian Americans kept pace with the diffusion of this group throughout the country so that, by 1950, the 15 effective statutes covered 64 percent of the Asian American population nationwide--as compared with 7 statutes reaching 67.3 percent in 1910. However, as Asian Americans became decreasingly concentrated on the West Coast, they existed in smaller niches and communities in states across the country. While Asian American numbers may have substantially increased in areas of previous scarcity by the middle of the twentieth century, in no territory did they constitute even 1/74th of the residential population. Stephenson's model--contending that statutory "distinctions" arose when other races resembled "equal numbers" to whites--therefore fails adequately to explain the gradual proliferation over this period of intermarriage restrictions targeting Asian Americans.

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/aspi02.htm

Michael Tee

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Re: Allen should 'fess up and be done with it.
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2006, 07:51:22 PM »
Antimiscegenation statutes applied throughout the south as well as in some other states.  The poll taxes and literacy tests, the official segregation of public facilities, including schools, hospitals, swimming pools, beaches, water fountains, restaurants and taverns, railway and bus waiting rooms, seating etc. were unique to the south.

There is no comparison at all between the apartheid-type of legislative wall between the races in the Southern states and the occasional traces of official racism found in the north, such as the anti-miscegenation laws (thank you, I had totally overlooked them in my argument) or the Alien Exclusion Laws which I would assume was Federal legislation in the USA as in Canada, since they affected immigration which the Constitutions of both countries assigned to the Federal power.

Basically the South was as affected as the rest of the country by miscegenation legislation and Chinese exclusion and, in addition to the rest of the country, "enjoyed" the unique "benefits" of the whole complex of Jim Crow laws which made it such a delightful and picturesque place in which to live.  As well as a lynching frequency which probably dwarfed that of the rest of the country.

BT

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Re: Allen should 'fess up and be done with it.
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2006, 09:30:44 PM »
You stated that racist laws were institutionalized in the south and not elsewhere in the country. My posting proved you wrong.


Michael Tee

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Re: Allen should 'fess up and be done with it.
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2006, 11:28:19 PM »
<<You stated that racist laws were institutionalized in the south and not elsewhere in the country. My posting proved you wrong.>>

Another example of conservative nit-picking.  Wrong on that one small point, but on the much  larger issue - - the entrenched racism of the south versus the much lesser racism of the north - - you actually buttressed my point.  If the South's racism was entrenched by all the Jim Crow laws plus miscegenation laws and the rest of the country's racism "entrenched" only by the anti-miscegenation laws, then of course the racism runs much deeper and more virulently in the South.

This is a perfect example of the lack of perspective (some would say, lack of common sense) of the conservative POV.  Of course, anti-miscegenation is racist, as is the poll tax, the literacy test and the KKK.  But the conservative mind is incapable of appreciating differences of degree, even vast differences.  So, to use their reasoning:  anti-miscegenation laws are racist; Jim Crow laws are racist; so a part of the country that is subject to anti-miscegenation laws is just as racist as another part that is subject to both anti-miscegenation laws AND Jim Crow AND lynch law.

I mean, come on, with all due respect, that is just nuts.

Amianthus

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Re: Allen should 'fess up and be done with it.
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2006, 10:07:19 AM »
Ami:  <<Why don't you tell me where those are in the south nowadays, mandated by law.>>  In other words, implicitly admitting that what he had previously stated as fact might as well have been pure bullshit, since he was unable or unwilling to produce a single example of it.  Asking in return a ridiculous question, "Where is racism NOW mandated in the South?" as if it had ever been in issue that racism was the current law of the land there.

Well, you did leave out the part where I said "And I can tell you from recent experiences - the Southeast is less racist now than the Northeast or upper Midwest."

Regardless, slavery as an institution was started in the northern parts of the US (Massachusetts, to be specific). Northern states were also the last states to free the slaves (some of them were allowed to keep their slaves if they fought on the side of the Union). Segregation was found in the North as well; Martin Luther King, Jr. led a march in Chicago against segregated housing, for example.

I'm surprised you're not familiar with the basics of the debate. Do you really not know that racism was institutionalized under law in the North as well as the South?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)